What I really don't quite get is what about Motif window manager, mwm? What is going to happen to it? I know this is like fortune telling, but I just thought it would be something to think about. From what I see, Motif, CDE will continue to live on AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Digital UNIX, etc. I am sure there will be people who are using Linux as a cheap platform to do the work that will finally target any one of those machines -- I am one of them. Will the Gnome stuff be a separate stream then? Will Gnome stuff be the only thing on Linux then? I have no knowledge about Gnome at all, but what is it essentially? How different will it be compared to Motif? Since there are so many different window managers in Linux, has anyone done any GUI research in the development of the window managers at all? It looks like there isn't much computer-human interaction (CHI) studies being done in the development of window managers like Enlightenment. I don't mean to start a flame war here, but I think it is a very good intellectual discussion topic, especially for someone interested in CHI. Personally, I find the article in "The Graphical User Interface: An Introduction" by Bernard J. Jansen very interesting. It was published in the SIGCHI Bulletin, April 1998, by the Association of Computing Machinery Special Interest Group on Computer-Human Interaction (ACM SIGCHI). Has anyone else read the article? Does anyone have any comments about it? Regards, Kenneth Tan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ C. J. Kenneth Tan E-mail: cjtan@acm.org Telephone: 1-403-220-8038 cjtan@ieee.org 1-403-606-4257 URL: <A HREF="http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc"><A HREF="http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc</A">http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc</A</A>> Facsimile: 1-403-284-1980 "An engineer made programmer is one who attempts to solve a problem, A programmer made engineer is one who knows how to solve a problem." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Michael Lankton wrote:

Aaron Seelye wrote:

...

pardon my ignorance, but what is this 'e', and how does it relate to gnome (another project about which i know little) --

e is the enlightened windowmanager, or enlightenment gnome is essentially the GNU kde In the future your window manager and gnome will interact, and gnome will take over some of the duties currently performed by your windowmanager. The window managers striving for gnome-compliance at this time are: Icewm Enlightenment WindowMaker

WindowMaker will also be the de facto windowmanager for GNUstep, if GNUstep ever gets completed. GNUstep is a port of the NeXT gui to linux using 100 0.000000ree software essentially. That is oversimplifying, but you get the gist. ==================================================================== Michael Lankton <A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org"><A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A">http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A</A>> ==================================================================== - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

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Vagn, Yes, the article is on the WWW. But it is not yet available to non SIGCHI members. All SIGCHI bulletins, except the most recent issue is available on the Web. Go to <A HREF="http://www.acm.org/sigchi/"><A HREF="http://www.acm.org/sigchi/</A">http://www.acm.org/sigchi/</A</A>> and proceed from there. You may want to check in a library for it if you want it quick. Usually, it can be found in university libraries. I can't seem to see a copy in my room right now. If you want, I can send you a photocopy of the paper, provided that ACM permits (I don't know for sure, at the moment). I think I have placed my copy in my department's Reading Room because I want to promote the awareness of CHI elements in designs (yes, I know I am an academic purist in this way). Regards, Kenneth Tan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ C. J. Kenneth Tan E-mail: cjtan@acm.org Telephone: 1-403-220-8038 cjtan@ieee.org 1-403-606-4257 URL: <A HREF="http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc"><A HREF="http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc</A">http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc</A</A>> Facsimile: 1-403-284-1980 "An engineer made programmer is one who attempts to solve a problem, A programmer made engineer is one who knows how to solve a problem." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Vagn Bjørno Jensen wrote:

C. J. Kenneth Tan wrote:

...

<snip...> Personally, I find the article in "The Graphical User Interface: An Introduction" by Bernard J. Jansen very interesting. It was published in the SIGCHI Bulletin, April 1998, by the Association of Computing Machinery Special Interest Group on Computer-Human Interaction (ACM SIGCHI). Has anyone else read the article? Does anyone have any comments about it? <snip...>

Is that article published on www?

Best Regards

Vagn Bjoerno Jensen

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Mike, Doing work in the area of high performance computing, I really think that commercial UNIX is here to stay, no matter what. At this point, Linux PPC is still quite early in its development, compared to something like AIX. Linux SPARC is not as mature as Solaris. Linux MIPS is far from IRIX. Has anyone done any benchmarks comparing Linux Alpha to Digital UNIX? Going a little bit astray, I don't see Linux being used on a machine with thousands of compute nodes any time soon either. Some people can now squeeze computation power of gigaflops out of Linux-based clusters. But what about the teraflop stuff? Are there anyone from Berkeley on this list here? Or maybe someone from one of the national labs in the US? Maybe they can tell us what's the power of those machines, the architecture of those machines, the configuration, the design requirements, the policies of the authority, etc. Recently, I went to the GeoTriad, a convention of geologists, geophysicists, and well loggers. There, once again I was reaffirmed that commercial UNIX is going to be around for quite a while still. Linux is now running on the Fujitsu AP/1000. But that is just one of the many parallel machines in the world. It is not even one of the fastest in the world (at least not that I know of). What is needed in the industry, which time and money is of great importance, is a reliable solution. I have been told by quite a number of people at geophysical software companies that cost is not a problem usually. Reliability is. So until Linux is tested and proven on the large machines, it might be a bit hard to convince a lot of software companies as such to do it. I imagine that would be the case in a few other industries other than geophysics as well. As such, if commercial UNIX continues to live on, Motif will. And there will be people like me doing work on Linux, and then target the code for commercial UNIX. That's the reason why I am using Motif. Until KDE or GNOME or any other has a clear lead on all UNIX platforms, regardless of commercial UNIX or not, I will probably stick with Motif. Actually, very soon, I will be working on a 32-node Alpha cluster running Digital UNIX. On and off, I have used Digital UNIX on another machine and so far, I haven't had any complaints about it. What are the problems that you have with Digital UNIX? I use AIX on the IBM RS/6000 machines most often. I love the RS/6000 machines. For what it does, I think AIX is fine. Actually, recently, I am having some problems with some computation on the RS/6000 machines. In some odd cases, I have the problem of zero not being zero. But that may be because of my code. Until I sort that out, I can't say it's IBM's problem or my problem. I can only say that there is a problem. Other machines that I use often are the SGI machines. I think IRIX is great for what SGI machines do best too -- graphics. So as you can see, I don't see why people have problems with certain UNIX flavors running on certain hardware. I am also using Solaris, SunOS and NeXTStep as well. Do I have any problems with them? No, except NeXTStep. I can't stand the GUI. But I think that's just a matter of personal choice. Can anyone make me convert to anything else, move away from Motif? I am really open. Thanks a lot for your interesting input. Regards, Kenneth Tan P/S: I can go on and on rattling about OSes, draw in stuff like NetBSD, FreeBSD, SCO UNIX, OpenBSD, Hurd, etc. That's a large component of what I have been doing in the last few years. But I don't think I shall lead this list astray. Write to me directly if anyone wants to know what I know and what I think about them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ C. J. Kenneth Tan E-mail: cjtan@acm.org Telephone: 1-403-220-8038 cjtan@ieee.org 1-403-606-4257 URL: <A HREF="http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc"><A HREF="http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc</A">http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~tanc</A</A>> Facsimile: 1-403-284-1980 "An engineer made programmer is one who attempts to solve a problem, A programmer made engineer is one who knows how to solve a problem." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Michael Lankton wrote:

C. J. Kenneth Tan wrote:

...

What I really don't quite get is what about Motif window manager, mwm?

There are just much nicer alternatives in linux. Plus motif is in the same boat as QT, no one in the linux world wants to support it because it isn't GPL'd. There is lesstif, yes, but gtk offers so much more flexibility, and wings (the widget set used by Windowmaker) is going to be really special as well.

...

What is going to happen to it? I know this is like fortune telling, but I just thought it would be something to think about. From what I see, Motif, CDE will continue to live on AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Digital UNIX,

Commercial unices are going away IMO. Compaq has already announced the discontinuation of Digital Unix development (and good riddance I say, I use OSF1 at school, and it's no prize), and do you really have confidence in sgi's or Sun's long term success at this point?

...

Will the Gnome stuff be a separate stream then? Will Gnome stuff be the only thing on Linux then? I have no knowledge about Gnome at all, but what is it essentially? How different will > it be compared to Motif?

The easiest way to describe Gnome is Kde sans native window manager. That is one of the reasons why I believe Gnome will eventually succeed and Kde will fail. It isn't proprietary, and people like a choice. The other is license. Gnome is built on gtk (GPL'd), kde on QT (non-GPL)

-- ==================================================================== Michael Lankton <A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org"><A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A">http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A</A>> ==================================================================== - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

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Forget E,fvwm,AS,icewm,WM,CDE,KDE Check it out : and SuSE its OK to put it on SuSE-5.3 <A HREF="http://linux.wiw.org/blackbox"><A HREF="http://linux.wiw.org/blackbox</A">http://linux.wiw.org/blackbox</A</A>> Subject: Blackbox 0.34.3 released. Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:44:12 -0500 (CDT) This is a major bug fix release, also there is a new window styling... tell me how you like it... from the Changelog: Changes from 0.34.2 to 0.34.3: - this was a small change in the code... but a BIG change for the user base... the X error handler is now non fatal... yes... this means if blackbox encounters an X error (like a bad window or a bad match) it will fprintf() the error and continue running... the quick window bug has been mostly fixed... i have a small app that i wrote that quickly maps a window, calls XSync()... then destroys the window and exits... the first time i ran this little beauty... blackbox died a horrible death... blackbox now handles this app nicely... but does occasionally report an error (during the decoration creation... which is promptly destroyed from the destroy notify event placed in the queue by the X server... thus... no memory leaks... no memory corruption... blackbox just keeps chugging along nicely Changes from 0.34.1 to 0.34.2 (unreleased): - fixed MSBFirst byte order image rendering at 32bpp (24bpp pending) (for machines better than this intel machine of mine) - changed BImage to allocate dithering space when the image is created and to delete it when the image is destroyed... instead of allocating the space and deleting the space each time the image is rendered to an XImage... hopefully this will provide a speed increase (albeit a small one) - changed blackbox to call XListPixmapFormats once at startup... instead of each time an image is rendered... this should afford some speed increase (a small one at best :) - fixed a bug in Window.cc that re-reads the window name... Jon Denardis discovered this bug while playing with netscape 4.5... the validation call is now directly before the XFetchName call... instead of before an if() { } block that calls strcmp and XFree() - edit Window.cc to change the way buttons are decorated and sized the associatedWindow.button.color(To) resources have been removed, but the associatedWindow.button texture resource is still there regards! Brad Hughes / nyztihke - 1998 - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

This may sound rediculous, but how would I go about doing that? Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks, Mark --- Robert Williams wrote:

Sounds cool. But why forget about KDE? You can use BlackBox with KDE...

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I think I got it. I just copied the contents of the startkde file to my .xinitrc and replaced kwm with blackbox. Thanks, Mark --- Robert Williams wrote:

Sounds cool. But why forget about KDE? You can use BlackBox with KDE...

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Robert Williams wrote:

Sounds cool. But why forget about KDE? You can use BlackBox with KDE...

Use BlackBox with KDE? only if you got XNest332 and thats not a KDE application. I never found any function in a KDE application just lack of. E on the other hand was and prob still is just for EYE Candy, for when your windows friends came over and ya wanted to make em drool a bit (specialy on the desktop with naky chicks and deamons) Anyways.. fvwm2 is great for stability, AS is not so fun configuring. WM is ok. CDE is kinda cool. icewm I do not like at all. You can what? Do you know how many system resources get eaten with KDE? 26+% I have not seen a KDE application that couldn't be beat by other applications for use/function/whatever. Blackbox is very useful/easy/neat looking/easy to configure/ you can add whatever programs you need to the blackbox.menu with ease. You just can't beat Blackbox. Steven Damn I hate when Netscape screws my posts up with line returns I didn't put there..looks awful.

Steven Udell wrote:

...

Forget E,fvwm,AS,icewm,WM,CDE,KDE

Check it out : and SuSE its OK to put it on SuSE-5.3 <A HREF="http://linux.wiw.org/blackbox"><A HREF="http://linux.wiw.org/blackbox</A">http://linux.wiw.org/blackbox</A</A>>

Subject: Blackbox 0.34.3 released. Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:44:12 -0500 (CDT)

This is a major bug fix release, also there is a new window styling... tell me how you like it...

from the Changelog:

Changes from 0.34.2 to 0.34.3: - this was a small change in the code... but a BIG change for the user base... the X error handler is now non fatal... yes... this means if blackbox encounters an X error (like a bad window or a bad match) it will fprintf() the error and continue running... the quick window bug has been mostly fixed... i have a small app that i wrote that quickly maps a window, calls XSync()... then destroys the window and exits...the first time i ran this little beauty... blackbox died a horrible death... blackbox now handles this app nicely... but does occasionally report an error (during the decoration creation... which is promptly destroyed from the destroy notify event placed in the queue by the X server... thus... no memory leaks... no memory corruption... blackbox just keeps chugging along nicely

Changes from 0.34.1 to 0.34.2 (unreleased): - fixed MSBFirst byte order image rendering at 32bpp (24bpp pending)(for machines better than this intel machine of mine) - changed BImage to allocate dithering space when the image is created and to delete it when the image is destroyed... instead of allocating the space and deleting the space each time the image is rendered to an XImage... hopefully this will provide a speed increase (albeit a small one) - changed blackbox to call XListPixmapFormats once at startup... instead of each time an image is rendered... this should afford some speed increase (a small one at best :) - fixed a bug in Window.cc that re-reads the window name... Jon Denardis discovered this bug while playing with netscape 4.5...the validation call is now directly before the XFetchName call... instead of before an if() { } block that calls strcmp and XFree() - edit Window.cc to change the way buttons are decorated and sized the associatedWindow.button.color(To) resources have been removed,but the associatedWindow.button texture resource is still there

regards!

Brad Hughes / nyztihke - 1998 -

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hekate@intergate.bc.ca wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Steven Udell wrote:

...

Use BlackBox with KDE? only if you got XNest332 and thats not a KDE application. I never found any function in a KDE application just lack of. E on the other hand was and prob still is just for EYE Candy, for when your windows friends came over and ya wanted to make em drool a bit (specialy on the desktop with naky chicks and deamons) Anyways.. fvwm2 is great for stability, AS is not so fun configuring. WM is ok. CDE is kinda cool. icewm I do not like at all. <snip>

Blackbox is very useful/easy/neat looking/easy to configure/ you can add whatever programs you need to the blackbox.menu with ease. You just can't beat Blackbox.

What _is_ this?? Have you ever tried E? And in your role of official Window Manager investigator and Blackbox proselytizer you make many vague statements that aren't based on much of anything.

IMHO, Wow, I dunno about you, "My role of official WM investigator" when did I get this job? I support BlackBox because I use it. I didn't want it OVER LOOKED. Simple as that. My vague statements, true I did not go much further than to say in IMHO what I liked on basically yes and no to this or that. Big deal. I dunno if you want me to "SELL" you a product, but I aint doing that. I didn't write the wms, but I have used them all. E' has a new release, and NO I haven't tried it. Totally connected to GNOME? well my system and prob at least 800f SuSE users don't have any GNOME. We still waiting, fine I totally agree with you it might be worth while to SEE what E and GNOME and all the other wms that can do while being used with a GNOME/glibc2 system. One thing that Blackbox is, is that its JUST a wm nothing more. It doesn't give you ANY applications, you put whatever you want to use in it yourself. It is clean from any thing you necessarily don't want on your desktop. Can't say that about any other WM can you now? Edit/remove/add/over-write Anyways. SuSE's cutting edge is libc5..Or what ever you do with your system. Thanks for the flame.

totally connected with Gnome and some of the people working on E are kick ass programmers that are involved in _huge_ developmental projects that will TOTALLY effect the future of X as we know it. (One of the few things

Serious golf clap. Kick Ass Programers indeed. <g> I agree, every one who works on any application/kernel/whathave you will TOTALLY effect in one way or another the future of Linux/ect.. Have you heard about SuSE's superXcontrol? Soon to come. Can't give you details as I was told by a friend of mine in Germany. He can't wait. So I guess I can't wait either. Maybe SuSE will make a statement on this.

P.S. the 'naked chicks' and 'demons' though available isn't the current look of E. If you actually STUDIED before speaking what you intend to speak ABOUT you'd know that. You can actually make E, WM, and A, look almost any way you want. Anyways, my point: don't diss without really being knowledeable about what you diss. It does alot of hardworking programmers a disservice, and there are enough things to VALIDLY criticism without throwing around this rubbish.

LOL! Whatever man. Hey have you downloaded the E's SouthPark theme? Geesh, I think you need to chill out a bit, why do you think everyone runs Linux, we use alot of hardworking programmer's PROGRAMS. I didn't DIS anything. Nor do I wan't too, I just have to find time to use everything that I might enjoy thats out there. I didn't say anything SUXed, I just said what I could find function in... Steven Udell - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Michael Lankton wrote:

That is NOT true! You can run kde in any windowmanager, but you can NOT run the kpanel with any windowmanager other than kwm. You need to watch your statements, that was just plain false. Gnome, on the other hand, is independent of the windowmanager, and while the windowmanager can be coded to work with gnome (icewm, e, windowmaker), the two function seperately from each other.

Umm, but IMHO I don't want run kde application in other wm's Why? what function can you get out of a kde application that you can get out of other (IMHO) applications that are not KDE specific. Ok what in your opion are KDE applications you "can't" live without? (can ya say what- they do too?) Steve - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Robert, I suggest you educate yourself better about topics that you want to address in a public forum. Go read this for starters: <A HREF="http://slashdot.org/features/9807150935248.shtml"><A HREF="http://slashdot.org/features/9807150935248.shtml</A">http://slashdot.org/features/9807150935248.shtml</A</A>> Robert Williams voiced: some uninformed opinions on the kde vs. gnome schism -- ==================================================================== Michael Lankton <A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org"><A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A">http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A</A>> ==================================================================== - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

At 10:33 AM 7/20/98 -0700, M wrote:

Right now, there is work being done on a free QT replacement. If everyone was fine with QT this wouldn't be the case. This is also why more people seem to be trying to work with gtk etc. Check out the Harmony project.

Seems to me that one of the advantages of Linux is also one of its biggest disadvantages. If the PERFECT software was written there would be at least a dozen clones of it written by those who thought that they could do better or include better features. Jim - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Did I mentione kpanel? No. The fact is you can run BlackBox with KDE, maybe not with kpanel, but you can run it with KDE. Buddy I do watch my statements. Are you the attack artist on this list? -- That is NOT true! You can run kde in any windowmanager, but you can NOT run the kpanel with any windowmanager other than kwm. You need to watch your statements, that was just plain false. Gnome, on the other hand, is independent of the windowmanager, and while the windowmanager can be coded to work with gnome (icewm, e, windowmaker), the two function seperately from each other. Robert Williams wrote:

Sounds cool. But why forget about KDE? You can use BlackBox with KDE...

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-- Robert Williams rwilliams@jrcmaui.com Jarob Consulting rwilliams@kde.org Maui, Hawaii - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

You have your opinion and I have mine. Lets kill this thread, deal? Michael Lankton wrote:

Robert Williams wrote:

...

Did I mentione kpanel? No. The fact is you can run BlackBox with KDE, maybe not with kpanel, but you can run it with KDE. Buddy I do watch my statements. Are you the attack artist on this list?

Not at all, but I won't let incorrect statements like that slide. You can run kde applications in any windowmanager, there is no trick to that. But kde applications are not the same as running kde. If kde was functional with windowmanagers other than kwm, then it would be possible to run kpanel in any windowmanager as kpanel is the control center for kde. Kde is a desktop environment, and if you can not access that environment via kpanel you are not running kde. This is not nit-picking, check the functionality of Gnome, that is how gnome interacts with the windowmanager. Do you really think that running kmahjongg inside WindowMaker constitutes running kde? Not.

-- ==================================================================== Michael Lankton <A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org"><A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A">http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A</A>> ==================================================================== - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

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Jo Whitby wrote:

...

That is NOT true! You can run kde in any windowmanager, but you can NOT run the kpanel with any windowmanager other than kwm. You need to watch your statements, that was just plain false. Gnome, on the other hand, is independent of the windowmanager, and while the windowmanager can be coded to work with gnome (icewm, e, windowmaker), the two function seperately from each other.

This also is NOT true. You CAN run kpanel in any window manager, it has rather a long switch "-no-KDE-compliant-window-manager"

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know there was an option to run kpanel with other window managers. -- ==================================================================== Michael Lankton <A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org"><A HREF="http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A">http://tasteslikechicken.ml.org</A</A>> ==================================================================== - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e

Trust me I have been following the flame wars. You can also say many people support QT and are not concerned with the licensing. Also you should know that Slashot.com is mainly GPL readers, so of course you will see many people against QT on it. hekate@intergate.bc.ca wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Robert Williams wrote:

...

No one wants to support QT in the Linux world? Maybe you had better do some research. There are thousands of people using KDE and hence QT. Sounds like it is supported to me. How about SuSE? Caldera?

It's not that no one wants to support QT. Some people are fine with it. There is also a big bulk coolition who think Linux should be _truly_ free and don't like the LICENSE. PERIOD. If you had been following some of the exhanges on this ---try kernel list, slashdot, MANY Linux forums, you would _know_ that many people are not 'fine' with QT and have an issue with the it. Read up.

Right now, there is work being done on a free QT replacement. If everyone was fine with QT this wouldn't be the case. This is also why more people seem to be trying to work with gtk etc. Check out the Harmony project.

These are philosophical agreements on what Linux is about. I'm not saying I'm for or against QT. I do think it's an interesting issue, though.

...

...

The easiest way to describe Gnome is Kde sans native window manager. That is one of the reasons why I believe Gnome will eventually succeed and Kde will fail. It isn't proprietary, and people like a choice. The other is license. Gnome is built on gtk (GPL'd), kde on QT (non-GPL)

Gnome will be huge and has massive support. The KDE thing with QT will only strengthen GNOME, as some people that might not even have gotten that _into_ Gnome will do so just because they don't like QT. You have two set of supporters, the people that just plain like Gnome and where it's going and think it's kewl, and also the people that don't want to see KDE get too huge because of the issues that are brought to the table, like it or not, by QT.

-M

One is most dishonest towards one's God; he is not _permitted_ to sin.

mail: mjohnson@pop3.aebc.com

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On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, C. J. Kenneth Tan wrote:

What I really don't quite get is what about Motif window manager, mwm? What is going to happen to it? I know this is like fortune telling, but I just thought it would be something to think about. From what I see, Motif, CDE will continue to live on AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Digital UNIX, etc. I am sure there will be people who are using Linux as a cheap platform to do the work that will finally target any one of those machines -- I am one of them. Will the Gnome stuff be a separate stream then? Will Gnome stuff be the only thing on Linux then? I have no knowledge about Gnome at all, but what is it essentially? How different will it be compared to Motif?

Gnome is a desktop environement being built for Linux and presently supported by Red Hat Software and Debian Linux. I think I would do it injustice with soundbytes, I suggest <A HREF="http://www.gnome.org"><A HREF="http://www.gnome.org</A">http://www.gnome.org</A</A>> as a source for information for the truly curious. You will find there tons of information on Gnome, to include, faqs, screenshots, software links, etc etc etc. Besides, I think the desire was to get AWAY from Motif....the same as with QT, because it's not free.

Since there are so many different window managers in Linux, has anyone done any GUI research in the development of the window managers at all? It looks like there isn't much computer-human interaction (CHI) studies being done in the development of window managers like Enlightenment. I don't mean to start a flame war here, but I think it is a very good intellectual discussion topic, especially for someone interested in CHI.

As far as research... I can't say. Go to the horses mouth and see. Raster, Mandrake, the AS people, Pascu...etc. would probably all give you their thoughts on it. I think the main thing is built on 1) funtionality and 2) that it looks cool. I haven't heard much at all about the other stuff you mention, and I belong to most of the major lists, and have built and used all these different desktops.

Personally, I find the article in "The Graphical User Interface: An Introduction" by Bernard J. Jansen very interesting. It was published in the SIGCHI Bulletin, April 1998, by the Association of Computing Machinery Special Interest Group on Computer-Human Interaction (ACM SIGCHI). Has anyone else read the article? Does anyone have any comments about it?

Not to be a d*ck. But I think most people just want something that looks cool...if you have ideas about areas that _you_ feel need research..maybe you are the man to get the ball rolling... you know what I mean, that Linux --'if it ain't there then do it yourself' type deal.. this is meant completely non-facetiously. -M One is most dishonest towards one's God; he is not _permitted_ to sin. mail: mjohnson@pop3.aebc.com - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e