From: SCC
From: Guy Van Sanden
>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I saw mac osX at a local fair here in Madrid. The demonstrator told me
would do away with Linux since it had a far superior desktop, designed by professionals. And that anyway, all unix based systems would buy it because they have never had a proper desktop like a mac. I told him that KDE2 was available now, that it worked and it too was designed by
Nonsense, he said. Where is the graphics package I asked, wanting to
On 09/11/2000, 21:22:21, SCC
little... But by then it was getting late.
Or am I missing something?
Long may we be rid of the nonsense!
Steve.
<p>> --
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Hi everyone.
I saw mac osX at a local fair here in Madrid. The demonstrator told me
Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001110150523.00a43be0@mail.casaccia.enea.it>
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:09:16 +0100
From: Fabrizio Poggi
would do away with Linux since it had a far superior desktop, designed by professionals. And that anyway, all unix based systems would buy it because they have never had a proper desktop like a mac. I told him that KDE2 was available now, that it worked and it too was designed by professionals. Nonsense, he said. Where is the graphics package I asked, wanting to play a little... But by then it was getting late.
Or am I missing something?
Long may we be rid of the nonsense!
Steve.
<p>Just for chat (absolutely without any angry versus Apple users), they say the same thing since 20 years: the apple superiority, the only real desktop, wanna pay more for our excellence (--Nope, don't want--)?... They say "welcome" to W95 for joke, and now may think that Linux is just a penguin called Tux... We know the story: Apple was superior, was too much sure, was wrong. My Uncle Bill of Seattle *loves* applejuices. And now has also spend money for have another applejuice. Steve Jobs was and is now the only good thing of Apple. No, I'm forgetting the greatest case design:) Don't know why he don't join to us... Personally, I never feel me at home in front of a Mac and I've ever feel a nuance of elitarism in the Apple policy. WindowMaker do all the things I need to do on a desktop, with KDE1 I feel like to brand a *weapon*!!! It's far sufficient for me... Best Regards, Fabrizio
From: "T. Koray Peksayar"
Hi everyone.
I saw mac osX at a local fair here in Madrid. The demonstrator told me that it would do away with Linux since it had a far superior desktop, designed by professionals. And that anyway, all unix based systems would buy it because they have never had a proper desktop like a mac. I told him that KDE2 was available now, that it worked and it too was designed by professionals. Nonsense, he said. Where is the graphics package I asked, wanting to play a
Speaking for myself I'm tired of brands and their salesman telling they are the best. Everything is constantly evolving, including the man mind, so computers. Now take MacOS 8 for example; how many upgrades were made on OS 8 up to date: many, how much performance gain and flexibility gained by those patches: none. Now consider Linux (the kernel at the lowest level) It's in our hands and we can play with it as much as we want, give support, sell it, use it embedded, etc. etc. etc. Can Mac OS X or Y or Z do this ? NOOO... So this is the clue... At the time Linux and OpenSource gets serious support from commercial sources (it has gained a lot from IBM, Compaq, HP and Intel and many other small yet powerful ones) they stop speaking ! As far as I know Gates owns a part of Apple ! Another thing that comes to my mind is that the Linux kernel made Mac OS X happen :) First of all Apple has turned to a UN*Xish OS. That's what I and only I think :p Koray
Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20001110134008.009e67c0@popmail.i-2000.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:41:43 -0500
From: Doug McGarrett
Hi everyone.
I saw mac osX at a local fair here in Madrid. The demonstrator told me that it would do away with Linux since it had a far superior desktop, designed by professionals. And that anyway, all unix based systems would buy it because they have never had a proper desktop like a mac. I told him that KDE2 was available now, that it worked and it too was designed by professionals. Nonsense, he said. Where is the graphics package I asked, wanting to play a little... But by then it was getting late.
Or am I missing something?
Long may we be rid of the nonsense!
Steve.
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:17:49 -0800
From: Ben Rosenberg
From: juergen.braukmann@ruhr-west.de Message-ID: <3A0C6C0E.FC43AA61@ruhr-west.de> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:43:42 +0100 Subject: Re: [SLE] mac osX The end of Linux? SCC wrote:
Hi everyone.
I saw mac osX at a local fair here in Madrid. The demonstrator told me that it would do away with Linux since it had a far superior desktop, designed by professionals. And that anyway, all unix based systems would buy it because they have never had a proper desktop like a mac. I told him that KDE2 was available now, that it worked and it too was designed by professionals. Nonsense, he said. Where is the graphics package I asked, wanting to play a little... But by then it was getting late.
Or am I missing something?
Long may we be rid of the nonsense!
Steve.
Hi Steve et al, /Linux suit off /Microsoft suit on Nope. There is nothing better than M$ Windows. The worlds *best* programmers developed it. It runs on most machines in the world. All these users cannot be wrong, can they?? Our Windows 200 ist the best and stablest Windows we ever made. Have you ever tried the self healing features.... blah blah blah good Windows... best blah Windows rules .... blah /Microsoft suit off /Linux suit on What do you expect from a Apple salesman? Personally, I wish Apple the best, but I think we can do much better without these salesmen. Every system has it's advantages and disadvantages. I love Un*x ability for scripting / shell and I do not think there is scripting on the Mac. I'll post a OT scripting question for DOS next days, since this is feature I also miss on Windows. The odd and curious thing is that if you got a low computer experiance you'll*always* need assistance from an expert. Windows and probably Mac suggest you your capable -how next to zero your knowledge ever is- and if your install fails you'll weep, usually on the experianced shoulder untill it's soaked with tears, as the average poster on this list knows from experiance. Nothing will change that, but learning and education. Neither will KDE2 or MacOS X. They might be nice and intuitive, but running an ftp or web server you'll probably sh*t on that. ;-) my cheap change money opinion on that.... Juergen <p> -- =========================================== __ _ Juergen Braukmann juergen.braukmann@gmx.de| -o)/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Tel: 0201-743648 dk4jb@db0qs.#nrw.deu.eu | /\\ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / ===========================================_\_v __/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:13:08 -0800
From: Ben Rosenberg
From: "Timothy R. Butler"
From: SCC [mailto:fsanta@arrakis.es] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:22 PM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: [SLE] mac osX The end of Linux?
Hi everyone.
I saw mac osX at a local fair here in Madrid. The demonstrator told me that it would do away with Linux since it had a far superior desktop, designed by professionals. And that anyway, all unix based systems would buy it because they have never had a proper desktop like a mac. I told him that KDE2 was available now, that it worked and it too was designed by professionals. Nonsense, he said. Where is the graphics package I asked, wanting to play a little... But by then it was getting late.
Or am I missing something?
Long may we be rid of the nonsense!
Steve.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Message-ID: <3A0F74AF.866D5587@knief.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:57:19 -0800
From: Herman Knief
Sorry to get in on this thread sort of late - but I thought I'd list a few reasons why it won't do away with Linux (some may have already been mentioned:
10.) Linux's strong hold isn't in the Desktop anyway - it's in the server, something the Mac is very weak in (weaker than Windows, IIRC)
Yes, but since osX is really based on NeXTstep... using a mach kernel... there's no reason why it wouldn't be as strong or stronger than Linux.
9.) If a better GUI could kill Linux, Windows 2000 would have killed Linux (since KDE2 wasn't out yet). 8.) Linux is open source, and draws many people for that reason. 7.) Linux is attracting more developers than the Mac (I think)
Have you tried the new development environment under osX - Objective C kicks ass!
6.) Linux is supported on many architectures, not just Apple/IBM/Motorola's expensive PowerPC chips and MHz-lacking processors.
Once, again, being based on NeXTstep... it's not limted to PPC... in fact, it's beginnings were originally developed on 68k, then ported to Sparc and Intel.
5.) Linux/UNIX is the only place for a complete, free office suite that resembles MS-Office (rather than all-in-one StarOffice). KOffice!
And just waite for the port to osX... since it is a UNIX like os as well.
4.) Linux with KDE 2.0 provides a more customizable, modern, and robust GUI.
3.) Macs only have one mouse button. 2.) Linux has the ability to go to a command prompt for trouble shooting. and the number one reason why Linux won't be done away with by MacOS....
So does osX!
1.) You don't have to have a fruity colored computer to use Linux!
If Apple is smart... and let's remind ourselves that Jobs is back in control... they will eventually release osX for numerous platforms. - Herman
Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.0.20001113115641.01e6e0e8@claborn.net> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:05:29 -0600 From: wilson@claborn.net (Jonathan Wilson) Subject: Re: [SLE] mac osX The end of Linux? At 08:57 PM 11/12/2000 -0800, you wrote:
See comments in-line...
"Timothy R. Butler" wrote:
Sorry to get in on this thread sort of late - but I thought I'd list a few reasons why it won't do away with Linux (some may have already been mentioned:
10.) Linux's strong hold isn't in the Desktop anyway - it's in the server, something the Mac is very weak in (weaker than Windows, IIRC)
Yes, but since osX is really based on NeXTstep... using a mach kernel... there's no reason why it wouldn't be as strong or stronger than Linux.
I'd like to add that the NeXT kernel it's self is based on BSD. And BSD is generally considered just a little bit better at serving then Linux - or at least as good as Linux <p>>> 9.) If a better GUI could kill Linux, Windows 2000 would have killed Linux
(since KDE2 wasn't out yet).
8.) Linux is open source, and draws many people for that reason.
Darwin too.
7.) Linux is attracting more developers than the Mac (I think)
Have you tried the new development environment under osX - Objective C kicks ass!
In fact. Openstep (OdbC) is /very/ cool. Not to mention that Python, Tcl and the like are fairly multi-platform - as is rebol and Java. Mac OS X even has Java 2, doesn't it?
6.) Linux is supported on many architectures, not just Apple/IBM/Motorola's expensive PowerPC chips and MHz-lacking processors.
Once, again, being based on NeXTstep... it's not limted to PPC... in fact, it's beginnings were originally developed on 68k, then ported to Sparc and Intel.
Bingo. And stop comparing Apples to oranges: Mhz has little to do with it - not as much as you'd like to think anyway. (I will say that it's a crime to only have 3 PCI slots ;-) )
5.) Linux/UNIX is the only place for a complete, free office suite that resembles MS-Office (rather than all-in-one StarOffice). KOffice!
And just waite for the port to osX... since it is a UNIX like os as well.
What makes you think more aren't coming?
4.) Linux with KDE 2.0 provides a more customizable,
Maybe
modern,
Um no - OS X's GUI is very modern
and robust GUI.
What's not robust about OS X's GUI? <p>>> 3.) Macs only have one mouse button. This is really sad - go buy a 2, 3 or 4 button Kensington !
2.) Linux has the ability to go to a command prompt for trouble shooting. and the number one reason why Linux won't be done away with by MacOS....
So does osX!
Indeed. You can even run most BSD utils on OS X <p>>> 1.) You don't have to have a fruity colored computer to use Linux! And you don't have to to use OS X either - I'd hardly call a grey G4 "fruity".
If Apple is smart... and let's remind ourselves that Jobs is back in control... they will eventually release osX for numerous platforms.
Ever heard about the confirmed x86 and rumored Alpha ports?
- Herman
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Yes, but since osX is really based on NeXTstep... using a mach
kernel... there's no
reason why it wouldn't be as strong or stronger than Linux.
I'd like to add that the NeXT kernel it's self is based on BSD. And BSD is generally considered just a little bit better at serving
Message-ID: <020301c04da0$8ce07400$0301a8c0@home000.net>
From: "Thomas Kotzian"
Message-ID: <008c01c04e0a$6fb8dec0$070210ac@horsell.ibgames.com>
From: "Alan Lenton"
From: Cliff Sarginson
Um....
I really don't think this list is an appropriate place for o/s religion wars...
alan lenton alan@ibgames.com I agree.
Cliff
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:59:46 -0500
From: Damon Register
I really don't think this list is an appropriate place for o/s religion wars... but you get much better response on a subject like this than you do for anything on the subject of this mailing list :-)
Damon Register
From: Anurag Jalan
Alan Lenton wrote:
I really don't think this list is an appropriate place for o/s religion wars... but you get much better response on a subject like this than you do for anything on the subject of this mailing list :-)
Damon Register
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From: "Timothy R. Butler"
From: Damon Register [mailto:damon.w.register@lmco.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 6:00 AM Cc: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] mac osX The end of Linux?
Alan Lenton wrote:
I really don't think this list is an appropriate place for o/s religion wars... but you get much better response on a subject like this than you do for anything on the subject of this mailing list :-)
Damon Register
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Message-ID: <3A14E074.29FB92FF@halenet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:38:28 +1000
From: Don Hansford
Isn't this sort of on subject - a Linux list with a Linux vs. a new interesting competitor? A list only stays interesting so long as it isn't absolutley absolute on the subject matter (and certainly we are talking about Linux technologies here).
Just my two cents...
-Tim
Dunno if you'd been following the thread, but it was degenerating (I
learnt that word from my ex-mother-in-law!) into a typical OS flame war.
Personally, I applaud Mac for going the *nix way, and for the efforts
they are now putting towards the OpenSource model. More market-share to
'em!
When you start looking around, there ain't a lot of OS's still going
that aren't based, somehow, on the *nix architecture, and those that
aren't, are going to find themselves on the outer when it comes to major
application development in the next few years.
Your 2 cents
Plus my two cents
Equals four cents.... We could start a pyramid scheme on this :-)
--
This Email is 100% Virus Free!
How do I know? Because no Microsoft
products were used to generate it!
Regards Don Hansford
ECKYTECH COMPUTING/
SQIT Warwick
Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20001117104250.00a2e1f0@mail.casaccia.enea.it>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:13:16 +0100
From: Fabrizio Poggi
Personally, I applaud Mac for going the *nix way, and for the efforts they are now putting towards the OpenSource model. More market-share to 'em!
I Agree, that seems the nice thing. And will be better if Apple let us access this interesting part of OSX - and of this thread of discussion - (access intended as the possibility to install and run free classical GNU software: Emacs, Vim, Apache and so on); ehehe, I'm asking to Apple to create for me a Linux platform...;).. But if finally the Big Apple will go just a little in near to that, maybe I'll buy a beautifoul IBook:). For the one-eye mouse, I have no problems. Latest news: it seems that The Cube has serious problems to power switch in front panel that causes problems in both cases of cold or extra-heat status of the machine. Smell of crispy Apples and little smoke, but no problem... Want to put the internet address of this article but was a news page and now I see other stuff:( For the religious war: it depends from the fact that we could do alternative choices on the OS and applications to run on our machines (Thanx to Linux). But we remain all in a nice tone. It seems to be a good sign of dinamic environment. Best Regards, Fabrizio
From: "John Meyer"
From: "Timothy R. Butler"
Sorry to get in on this thread sort of late - but I thought I'd list a few reasons why it won't do away with Linux (some may have already been mentioned:
10.) Linux's strong hold isn't in the Desktop anyway - it's in the server, something the Mac is very weak in (weaker than Windows, IIRC)
Yes, but since osX is really based on NeXTstep... using a mach kernel... there's no reason why it wouldn't be as strong or stronger than Linux.
<p> Yes, but since it's a GUI in design still, I can't imagine it being as fast as Linux. It's also closed source (at least parts of it), so it can't be easily compiled for performance. And, depending on whether you agree with Linus or not, a microkernel might not be a good thing. <p>> > 9.) If a better GUI could kill Linux, Windows 2000 would have killed Linux
(since KDE2 wasn't out yet). 8.) Linux is open source, and draws many people for that reason. 7.) Linux is attracting more developers than the Mac (I think)
Have you tried the new development environment under osX - Objective C kicks ass!
Nope. Sounds nice, although, I bechya that Linux still will attract more developers. I mean you have a free toolkit and DE (QT and KDE), free IDE's (KDevelop and QTDesigner), and loads of free debuggers! Better yet, many are precompiled and ready to go in Linux.
6.) Linux is supported on many architectures, not just Apple/IBM/Motorola's expensive PowerPC chips and MHz-lacking processors.
Once, again, being based on NeXTstep... it's not limted to PPC... in fact, it's beginnings were originally developed on 68k, then ported to Sparc and Intel.
That is, if Jobs choose to do such. Unlike Linux, your at the mercy of a company (one that likes control more than MS, IMO) to release the code. <rant>These are people that make the entire system from hardware to the software you use, and everything inbetween. These are people that took 4.4BSD and re-released it under a more restrictive license. These people do Think Different - I'm just not sure I like how they think.</rant>
5.) Linux/UNIX is the only place for a complete, free office suite that resembles MS-Office (rather than all-in-one StarOffice). KOffice!
And just waite for the port to osX... since it is a UNIX like os as well.
Although a port to OS-X would require a port of the QT widget set (and all of the KDE-libs) to Aqua, wouldn't it?
2.) Linux has the ability to go to a command prompt for trouble shooting. and the number one reason why Linux won't be done away with by MacOS....
So does osX!
Gasp! Macs actually have a command prompt now?!?
1.) You don't have to have a fruity colored computer to use Linux!
If Apple is smart... and let's remind ourselves that Jobs is back in control... they will eventually release osX for numerous platforms.
It would be interesting if they did. -Tim "from the land without a President-elect" ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" ===================== <p><p>>
- Herman
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Message-ID: <3A10EEA3.F2493D45@halenet.com.au>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:49:55 +1000
From: Don Hansford
Message-Id:
fast as Linux. It's also closed source (at least parts of it), so it can't be easily compiled for performance. And, depending on whether you agree with Linus or not, a microkernel might not be a good thing.
Although Mac OS X is based on the mach microkernel, the BSD kernel layer is compiled into the same address-space as the microkernel, thus creating a mixture between a true micro-kernel and a monolithical kernel. At the same time the messages and ports from mach are still available. Mixing the BSD kernel layer with the mach layer may not be wise (if you separate them BSD may crash, without affecting the mach layer, here they can both go down). But the Mach layer provides very little support for the rest of the system, most of that is done by the BSD layer, which means to the end-user that there is no difference between bsd going down and a complete systems failure. The speed improvements are bigger than the theoretical increase in instability. I have yet to crash Mac OS X
Have you tried the new development environment under osX - Objective C kicks ass!
Nope. Sounds nice, although, I bechya that Linux still will attract more developers. I mean you have a free toolkit and DE (QT and KDE), free IDE's (KDevelop and QTDesigner), and loads of free debuggers! Better yet, many are precompiled and ready to go in Linux.
The development system under OS X is beautiful. Every Linux developer should take a look at it, since the tools behind them really are the familiar gcc and gdb (and a few more, make or jam, ...). The interface is well ddesigned, largely without manual you can write and debug you command-line tools. The interfacebuilder is great, although a manual would be nice there (Still learning) Interfacebuilder is really nice, because it ties in with the rest of the developement system so well: you draw you interface and the code needed to support it is there, precompiled in the objects. Adding your own support logic is easy, interfacebuileder writes the templates you have to fill out. I have yet to master the 5-minute-wordprocessor-with-spell-checking-demo.
2.) Linux has the ability to go to a command prompt for trouble shooting. and the number one reason why Linux won't be done away with by MacOS.... Gasp! Macs actually have a command prompt now?!?
As 'MacWorld' put it: (http://macworld.zdnet.com/2000/09/14/unix.html) [begin quote] You know there's revolution in the air when the following can be typed into an operating system built in Cupertino and execute flawlessly: dig @138.195.138.195 goret.org. axfr | grep '^c....*A' | \ sort | cut -b5-36 | perl -e 'while(<>){print pack("H32",$_)}' | gzip -d Put that in your GUI and smoke it. [end quote] BTW: has anyone an idea what on earth this does?
If Apple is smart... and let's remind ourselves that Jobs is back in control... they will eventually release osX for numerous platforms.
It would be interesting if they did.
Don't hold your breath, they actually make money from their hardware. Greetings, Maarten Sneep
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:04:00 -0500
From: Corvin Russell
participants (19)
-
a_jalan＠vsnl.com -
alan＠ibgames.com -
brosenb＠suse.com -
cliff＠raggedclown.net -
corvinr＠sympatico.ca -
damon.w.register＠lmco.com -
donh＠halenet.com.au -
dougmack＠i-2000.com -
fsanta＠arrakis.es -
herman＠knief.net -
john_meyer＠geocities.com -
juergen.braukmann＠ruhr-west.de -
poggif＠casaccia.enea.it -
sienix＠crosswinds.net -
sneep＠nat.vu.nl -
sysgod＠ixir.com -
tbutler＠uninetsolutions.com -
thomasko321m＠gmx.at -
wilson＠claborn.net