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<PRE> On 11-Jan-99 Ralph Clark wrote about the following Re: [SuSE Linux] Problems with Swap : || || Vary interesting but I don't think it is relevant to the current || discussion. Considering that I was the one who originally posted the "Problem with Swap" topic, I am sure that is is relevant to the topic (only because I say it is!). The commented text that you refer to was a clarification of someone erroneous claim that swapping ability of Linux was an enhancement by Linus. || Linux is unusual among Unix kernels in that its implementation owes || absolutely || _nothing_ to the original AT&T licenced code. That is why it is free. Actually, that is not unusual... If you take a look at NetBSD, FreeBSD and BSD386, these are all free of AT&T code. Although BSD/386 has remnants of original AT&T intellectual properties, hence BSD/386 moving on to become what is now known as BSD/I. And if you really want to get specific, the former two are also free of any BSD code which had AT&T restrictions on it. || Linux was || originally based on Andrew Tanenbaum's freeware OS called Minix (which || was also || developed independently of the AT&T code base), but I doubt if there's || much of || Minix left in the Linux kernel by now, and it's being tweaked more and || more all The initial Filesystem code as well as character handling code was stolen from Minix. The rest of the original kernel was written from the ground up. This is not based on memeory, but on actually playing with the source code long before it started to get wide knowledge of its existance. || the time. I doubt if the archaic performance trade-offs present in || traditional || Unix kernels would be found in modern Linux kernels in any || recognisable form. I am sure that is one takes the time to read an entire thread to make sure that a follow-up response is apropos, then comments like the one below wouldn't be made. Actually, if you want to go into detail, it wouldn't be a question of AT&T code, since the enhancement was made at Berkeley. Until the boys and girl at CSEG over at Berkeley made swapping available in a BSD release, there was no ability by the Bell Labs version of UNIX to do swapping. I normally don't get into a pissing contest on who knows the most arcana about Linux, UNIX, or the effects of the Reagan doctrine on the prolification of weapons of mass destruction. But I felt compelled to this time. The realities are that this mailing list should serve to guide people in the idiosyncracies of using S.u.S.E Linux. From time to time, we tend to wax on subjects that may not necessarily pertain to S.u.S.E Linux. In the case below, I was clarifying someone's misconception of where swap originated from. This really wasn't an invitation to dispute what was said, nor attempt to explain whether or not the response was germaine to the topic. || || Kim C. Callis wrote: || || > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- || > || > On 09-Jan-99 Ec|ipse wrote about the following Re: [SuSE Linux] || > Problems || > with Swap : || > || || > || Kim C. Callis wrote: || > || > || > || > I have been having a devil of a time with getting any of my swap || > || > space || > || > addressed. Currently I have 128M of RAM and I had created a 128M || > || > swap || > || > partition || > || || > || The only real purpose of swap space is for a system that || > || doesn't || > || have || > || alot of physical memory available. way back when linux was very || > || becoming || > || available, someone had asked Linus if there was a way to do this || > || since || > || he only had about 2mg of mem on his system and couldn't do || > || anything || > || really exciting with it. So along came swap space which made this || > || possible. || > || > I am sure Dennis Ritchie and others would have something to say about || > the || > above. In reading Andrew Tannenbaum's "The Design of the UNIX || > Operating || > System", one would find that UNIX was originally optimized to be I/O || > efficient and not CPU or physical RAM efficient. This is because when || > UNIX || > was created in 1969, it ran on a DEC PDP 11/45. This machine had a 16 || > bit || > addressing CPU (But kind of a hybrid like the 8088 which handled 16 || > bnits || > internally, but 8 bits externally, a whopping 40K of RAM and a whole || > 1M of || > disk space. || > || > So the initial design of UNIX was to make extensive use of swap space || > (and || > at that time it was truly swap space as opposed to the more efficent || > paging), the original kernel took up 27k and that left 13k to run || > various || > utilities like a shell and ed. || > || > Thank you for tuning into this weeks episode of "30 Years of || > Superiority || > - -- The History of the UNIX Operating System, with your host Kim || > Callis! :?) || > || > - --- || > Kim C. Callis -- kcc@ziplink.net || > ********************************* || > * When it absolutely, * || > * Positively has to be * || > * Destroyed over night! * || > * * || > * (800) MARINES * || > ********************************* || > || > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- || > Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 || > Charset: noconv || > || > iQCVAwUBNpfSXSaI5lr1ZTHJAQFTlQP7Brz1MBYrmxNgj26c8GCO71ehwYthz9Ua || > loC5PUZI8OlyUeWxiiJ5K/8lKZ4/sk65mmqwTxwcZcrts8ObY1wwgsY58abNGcRn || > Pu06yYaaVX+dXUrE0O1DfN/Qlhp4Qm12zBBdZ3E7V+EyQRB+BqrVf611Rm2Cl+Lp || > qIgw8+NF+78= || > =9l1t || > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- || > - || > To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with || > this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e || > Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and || > the || > archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>> || || -- || rclark@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk Ralph Clark, Virgo Solutions || Ltd (UK) || __ _ || / / (_)__ __ ____ __ * Powerful * Flexible * Compatible * || Reliable * || / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / *Well Supported * Thousands of New Users || Every Day* || /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ The Cost Effective Choice - Linux Means || Business! || || || || - || To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with || this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e || Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and || the || archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>> --- Kim C. Callis -- kcc@ziplink.net ********************************* * When it absolutely, * * Positively has to be * * Destroyed over night! * * * * (800) MARINES * ********************************* </PRE> <A HREF="pgp00010.pgp"> PGP signature</A></P>

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<PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <DL> <DT><STRONG>Warning</STRONG></DT> <DD>Could not process part with given Content-Type: <CODE>multipart/signed; boundary=MGYHOYXEY6WxJCY8; micalg=pgp-md5;protocol="application/pgp-signature"</CODE> </DD> </DL>

**MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> Kim, Everything I said in my brief response to this thread was true and you don't really deny any of it, you're just splitting hairs (badly) because you like to have the last word. Read on, then: Kim C. Callis wrote:

On 11-Jan-99 Ralph Clark wrote about the following Re: [SuSE Linux] Problems with Swap : || || Vary interesting but I don't think it is relevant to the current || discussion.

Considering that I was the one who originally posted the "Problem with Swap" topic, I am sure that is is relevant to the topic (only because I say it is!). The commented text that you refer to was a clarification of someone erroneous claim that swapping ability of Linux was an enhancement by Linus.

Considering that this is a _linux_ list and that the thread was about a _linux_ question, the sweeping generalisation you made about Unix could have been misleading to many people on the list who don't read the Linux Bible before every night before bed. My response was _to_ your erroneous posting in _context_ of the whole thread. I _did_ read the whole thread, and my posting was appropriate because _you_were_wrong_ to post a misleading statement. As for relevance being defined by you alone....is this the "suse_linux_kim_callis_e" list then? Actually it's not. A posting might belong to you in some sense even after it's in the public domain; however, a thread generated by several contributors is most certainly not yours. i.e. we all have as much right to determine what is relevant.

|| Linux is unusual among Unix kernels in that its implementation owes || absolutely || _nothing_ to the original AT&T licenced code. That is why it is free.

Actually, that is not unusual... If you take a look at NetBSD, FreeBSD and BSD386, these are all free of AT&T code. Although BSD/386 has remnants of original AT&T intellectual properties, hence BSD/386 moving on to become what is now known as BSD/I. And if you really want to get specific, the former two are also free of any BSD code which had AT&T restrictions on it.

OK, so there's Minix, the Linux family of kernels and (some of) the BSD family of kernels - against all the proprietary kernels. It sure does look like these non-AT&T-derived kernels are very much in the minority doesn't it? So my statement about Linux being unusual is correct. I _didn't_ claim that it was unique. You just misread my posting.

|| Linux was || originally based on Andrew Tanenbaum's freeware OS called Minix (which || was also || developed independently of the AT&T code base), but I doubt if there's || much of || Minix left in the Linux kernel by now, and it's being tweaked more and || more all

The initial Filesystem code as well as character handling code was stolen from Minix. The rest of the original kernel was written from the ground up.

You are right about that; thank you for the elaboration.

This is not based on memeory, but on actually playing with the source code long before it started to get wide knowledge of its existance.

Now you are just showing off.

|| the time. I doubt if the archaic performance trade-offs present in || traditional || Unix kernels would be found in modern Linux kernels in any || recognisable form.

I am sure that is one takes the time to read an entire thread to make sure that a follow-up response is apropos, then comments like the one below wouldn't be made.

Now you are just being rude. I did read it and IMHO my comment was apropos for the reasons stated herein.

Actually, if you want to go into detail, it wouldn't be a question of AT&T code, since the enhancement was made at Berkeley. Until the boys and girl at CSEG over at Berkeley made swapping available in a BSD release, there was no ability by the Bell Labs version of UNIX to do swapping.

Your original comment was about the design of Unix by Ritchie et al in 1969. My posting was a response to that comment. I believe Ritchie was working for AT&T at that time, not Berkeley. Hence I refer to AT&T licenced code.

I normally don't get into a pissing contest on who knows the most arcana about Linux, UNIX, or the effects of the Reagan doctrine on the prolification of weapons of mass destruction. But I felt compelled to this time.

People who start flame wars often make some dumb comment like this. If you don't normally do it then why make an exception now? My posting wasn't attacking you, anybody or anything. I was just adding something to a factual statement that might have been misleading because you had placed it out of context.The fact is that you rudely tried to slap me down because in some minor way I dared to correct you, and I guess you are one of those people who just can't ever be wrong.

The realities are that this mailing list should serve to guide people in the idiosyncracies of using S.u.S.E Linux. From time to time, we tend to wax on subjects that may not necessarily pertain to S.u.S.E Linux.

Fair enough. But it doesn't serve the users of the list to allow a misleading statement to pass uncorrected.

In the case below, I was clarifying someone's misconception of where swap originated from.

And I was clarifying your misleading clarification, lest anyone should wrongly think that implementation choices in the early Unices might have anything to do with current implementations of Linux. They don't.

This really wasn't an invitation to dispute what was said, nor attempt to explain whether or not the response was germaine to the topic.

In a public forum, I don't need an invitation from you to do either of those things. I just can't believe you're saying that stuff! What arrogance! Regardless of what you may think of me personally, I really think you ought to apologise to the whole list for that. Ralph

|| || Kim C. Callis wrote: || || > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- || > || > On 09-Jan-99 Ec|ipse wrote about the following Re: [SuSE Linux] || > Problems || > with Swap : || > || || > || Kim C. Callis wrote: || > || > || > || > I have been having a devil of a time with getting any of my swap || > || > space || > || > addressed. Currently I have 128M of RAM and I had created a 128M || > || > swap || > || > partition || > || || > || The only real purpose of swap space is for a system that || > || doesn't || > || have || > || alot of physical memory available. way back when linux was very || > || becoming || > || available, someone had asked Linus if there was a way to do this || > || since || > || he only had about 2mg of mem on his system and couldn't do || > || anything || > || really exciting with it. So along came swap space which made this || > || possible. || > || > I am sure Dennis Ritchie and others would have something to say about || > the || > above. In reading Andrew Tannenbaum's "The Design of the UNIX || > Operating || > System", one would find that UNIX was originally optimized to be I/O || > efficient and not CPU or physical RAM efficient. This is because when || > UNIX || > was created in 1969, it ran on a DEC PDP 11/45. This machine had a 16 || > bit || > addressing CPU (But kind of a hybrid like the 8088 which handled 16 || > bnits || > internally, but 8 bits externally, a whopping 40K of RAM and a whole || > 1M of || > disk space. || > || > So the initial design of UNIX was to make extensive use of swap space || > (and || > at that time it was truly swap space as opposed to the more efficent || > paging), the original kernel took up 27k and that left 13k to run || > various || > utilities like a shell and ed. || > || > Thank you for tuning into this weeks episode of "30 Years of || > Superiority || > - -- The History of the UNIX Operating System, with your host Kim || > Callis! :?) || > || > - --- || > Kim C. Callis -- kcc@ziplink.net || > ********************************* || > * When it absolutely, * || > * Positively has to be * || > * Destroyed over night! * || > * * || > * (800) MARINES * || > ********************************* || >

-- rclark@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk Ralph Clark, Virgo Solutions Ltd (UK) __ _ / / (_)__ __ ____ __ * Powerful * Flexible * Compatible * Reliable * / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / *Well Supported * Thousands of New Users Every Day* /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ The Cost Effective Choice - Linux Means Business! - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

**MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> Kim, Everything I said in my brief response to this thread was true and you don't really deny any of it, you're just splitting hairs (badly) because you like to have the last word. Read on, then: Kim C. Callis wrote:

On 11-Jan-99 Ralph Clark wrote about the following Re: [SuSE Linux] Problems with Swap : || || Vary interesting but I don't think it is relevant to the current || discussion.

Considering that I was the one who originally posted the "Problem with Swap" topic, I am sure that is is relevant to the topic (only because I say it is!). The commented text that you refer to was a clarification of someone erroneous claim that swapping ability of Linux was an enhancement by Linus.

Considering that this is a _linux_ list and that the thread was about a _linux_ question, the sweeping generalisation you made about Unix could have been misleading to many people on the list who don't read the Linux Bible before every night before bed. My response was _to_ your erroneous posting in _context_ of the whole thread. I _did_ read the whole thread, and my posting was appropriate because _you_were_wrong_ to post a misleading statement. As for relevance being defined by you alone....is this the "suse_linux_kim_callis_e" list then? Actually it's not. A posting might belong to you in some sense even after it's in the public domain; however, a thread generated by several contributors is most certainly not yours. i.e. we all have as much right to determine what is relevant.

|| Linux is unusual among Unix kernels in that its implementation owes || absolutely || _nothing_ to the original AT&T licenced code. That is why it is free.

Actually, that is not unusual... If you take a look at NetBSD, FreeBSD and BSD386, these are all free of AT&T code. Although BSD/386 has remnants of original AT&T intellectual properties, hence BSD/386 moving on to become what is now known as BSD/I. And if you really want to get specific, the former two are also free of any BSD code which had AT&T restrictions on it.

OK, so there's Minix, the Linux family of kernels and (some of) the BSD family of kernels - against all the proprietary kernels. It sure does look like these non-AT&T-derived kernels are very much in the minority doesn't it? So my statement about Linux being unusual is correct. I _didn't_ claim that it was unique. You just misread my posting.

|| Linux was || originally based on Andrew Tanenbaum's freeware OS called Minix (which || was also || developed independently of the AT&T code base), but I doubt if there's || much of || Minix left in the Linux kernel by now, and it's being tweaked more and || more all

The initial Filesystem code as well as character handling code was stolen from Minix. The rest of the original kernel was written from the ground up.

You are right about that; thank you for the elaboration.

This is not based on memeory, but on actually playing with the source code long before it started to get wide knowledge of its existance.

Now you are just showing off.

|| the time. I doubt if the archaic performance trade-offs present in || traditional || Unix kernels would be found in modern Linux kernels in any || recognisable form.

I am sure that is one takes the time to read an entire thread to make sure that a follow-up response is apropos, then comments like the one below wouldn't be made.

Now you are just being rude. I did read it and IMHO my comment was apropos for the reasons stated herein.

Actually, if you want to go into detail, it wouldn't be a question of AT&T code, since the enhancement was made at Berkeley. Until the boys and girl at CSEG over at Berkeley made swapping available in a BSD release, there was no ability by the Bell Labs version of UNIX to do swapping.

Your original comment was about the design of Unix by Ritchie et al in 1969. My posting was a response to that comment. I believe Ritchie was working for AT&T at that time, not Berkeley. Hence I refer to AT&T licenced code.

I normally don't get into a pissing contest on who knows the most arcana about Linux, UNIX, or the effects of the Reagan doctrine on the prolification of weapons of mass destruction. But I felt compelled to this time.

People who start flame wars often make some dumb comment like this. If you don't normally do it then why make an exception now? My posting wasn't attacking you, anybody or anything. I was just adding something to a factual statement that might have been misleading because you had placed it out of context.The fact is that you rudely tried to slap me down because in some minor way I dared to correct you, and I guess you are one of those people who just can't ever be wrong.

The realities are that this mailing list should serve to guide people in the idiosyncracies of using S.u.S.E Linux. From time to time, we tend to wax on subjects that may not necessarily pertain to S.u.S.E Linux.

Fair enough. But it doesn't serve the users of the list to allow a misleading statement to pass uncorrected.

In the case below, I was clarifying someone's misconception of where swap originated from.

And I was clarifying your misleading clarification, lest anyone should wrongly think that implementation choices in the early Unices might have anything to do with current implementations of Linux. They don't.

This really wasn't an invitation to dispute what was said, nor attempt to explain whether or not the response was germaine to the topic.

In a public forum, I don't need an invitation from you to do either of those things. I just can't believe you're saying that stuff! What arrogance! Regardless of what you may think of me personally, I really think you ought to apologise to the whole list for that. Ralph

|| || Kim C. Callis wrote: || || > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- || > || > On 09-Jan-99 Ec|ipse wrote about the following Re: [SuSE Linux] || > Problems || > with Swap : || > || || > || Kim C. Callis wrote: || > || > || > || > I have been having a devil of a time with getting any of my swap || > || > space || > || > addressed. Currently I have 128M of RAM and I had created a 128M || > || > swap || > || > partition || > || || > || The only real purpose of swap space is for a system that || > || doesn't || > || have || > || alot of physical memory available. way back when linux was very || > || becoming || > || available, someone had asked Linus if there was a way to do this || > || since || > || he only had about 2mg of mem on his system and couldn't do || > || anything || > || really exciting with it. So along came swap space which made this || > || possible. || > || > I am sure Dennis Ritchie and others would have something to say about || > the || > above. In reading Andrew Tannenbaum's "The Design of the UNIX || > Operating || > System", one would find that UNIX was originally optimized to be I/O || > efficient and not CPU or physical RAM efficient. This is because when || > UNIX || > was created in 1969, it ran on a DEC PDP 11/45. This machine had a 16 || > bit || > addressing CPU (But kind of a hybrid like the 8088 which handled 16 || > bnits || > internally, but 8 bits externally, a whopping 40K of RAM and a whole || > 1M of || > disk space. || > || > So the initial design of UNIX was to make extensive use of swap space || > (and || > at that time it was truly swap space as opposed to the more efficent || > paging), the original kernel took up 27k and that left 13k to run || > various || > utilities like a shell and ed. || > || > Thank you for tuning into this weeks episode of "30 Years of || > Superiority || > - -- The History of the UNIX Operating System, with your host Kim || > Callis! :?) || > || > - --- || > Kim C. Callis -- kcc@ziplink.net || > ********************************* || > * When it absolutely, * || > * Positively has to be * || > * Destroyed over night! * || > * * || > * (800) MARINES * || > ********************************* || >

-- rclark@virgosolutions.demon.co.uk Ralph Clark, Virgo Solutions Ltd (UK) __ _ / / (_)__ __ ____ __ * Powerful * Flexible * Compatible * Reliable * / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / *Well Supported * Thousands of New Users Every Day* /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ The Cost Effective Choice - Linux Means Business! - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

**MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Ralph Clark wrote:

Kim,

...

The realities are that this mailing list should serve to guide people in the idiosyncracies of using S.u.S.E Linux. From time to time, we tend to wax on subjects that may not necessarily pertain to S.u.S.E Linux.

Fair enough. But it doesn't serve the users of the list to allow a misleading statement to pass uncorrected.

You're both right. Kim, I do want to say, however, that though this is a S.u.S.E. list it is still a LINUX list. And I think we are allowed to stray a bit from time to time, as many user issues, except as their are distribution specific, mostly pertain to Linux or Unix, and are not the least bit inappropriate. I don't think we'd have all the listmembers we do and the list would be nearly as enjoyable as it is if we only discussed S.u.S.E. indiosyncracies as you put it. Perhaps it's time --as we need to do from time to time --- to chill out and go to our respective corners.:-) - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

I'm sorry, the mailbox for listbox@jules.com is currently full. Please try again later. Thank you. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

<DL> <DT><STRONG>Warning</STRONG></DT> <DD>Could not process message with given Content-Type: <CODE>multipart/signed; boundary=EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU; micalg=pgp-md5;protocol="application/pgp-signature"</CODE> </DD> </DL>

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I'm sorry, the mailbox for listbox@jules.com is currently full. Please try again later. Thank you. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

**MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> **MESSAGE FROM THE TPC.INT SINKHOLE** We regret to inform you that the phone number you attempted to reach is not currently being served by a remote printer operator. Your original message is attached so that you may send it by alternative means. We hope to have coverage in this area -- perhaps you know somebody who could operate a remote printer server? Does your ISP provide fax coverage in your local area? If not, perhaps they would benefit by setting up a fax server and joining TPC.INT. Speak with your ISP and show them why they might want to come online as a TPC "cell": <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A">http://www.tpc.int/servers/salespitch.html</A</A>> It's possible of course that you have not composed the TPC.INT-style address correctly, so here's a few examples. Note that we do not use international dialing codes but we do require the country codes. Example1: remote-printer.Arlington_Hewes/Room_403@441813434622.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Arlington Hewes in Room 403, at the FAX number, in England (where the country code is 44), of +44 181 3434622) Example2: remote-printer.Paul_Katz/The_Manor@19025842817.iddd.tpc.int (to send a fax to Paul Katz in The Manor at the FAX number, in North America (where the country code is 1) of +1 902 584 2817) If you're still unclear on the address format we require, please send for a copy of the FAQ, or visit our WWW pages. *****PLEASE NOTE******* TPC.INT does not consider unsolicited commercial mass mailings an acceptable use of the network. Individuals suspected of abusing this policy will be banned from using it pending investigation. We regret that such measures are necessary, but abuse of TPC.INT can force cells to close, and must be prevented when possible. Please be considerate - TPC.INT is for everyone. *********************** Regards, Mr. Arlington Hewes tpcadmin@info.tpc.int The TPC.INT Subdomain <A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/"><A HREF="http://www.tpc.int/</A">http://www.tpc.int/</A</A>> ************************************************** *** FOR GENERAL INFORMATION *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpcfaq@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** FOR A LIST OF CURRENT COVERAGE *** *** <A HREF="mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int">mailto:tpccover@info.tpc.int</A> *** *** TO REPORT A PROBLEM (read the FAQ first!) *** *** <A HREF="mailto:support@info.tpc.int">mailto:support@info.tpc.int</A> *** ************************************************** </PRE> <PRE> I'm sorry, the mailbox for listbox@jules.com is currently full. Please try again later. Thank you. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>

I'm sorry, the mailbox for listbox@jules.com is currently full. Please try again later. Thank you. - To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e Check out the SuSE-FAQ at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A">http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/</A</A>> and the archiv at <A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html"><A HREF="http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A">http://www.suse.com/Mailinglists/suse-linux-e/index.html</A</A>>