Re: [opensuse] Do we need an official web forum?
At 09:28 AM 26/01/2006, Peter Flodin wrote: cut
An official forum full of newbies and no "experts" is no use to any one.
1/ an expert is someone who was once a newbie! 2/ a newbie can usually understand what another newbie is asking better than an expert! scsijon
First of all, all of this is NOT meant arrogant or disrespective or whatever it may sound like. I still consider myself a newbie, as there are a lot of things I just dont know. On 1/26/2006 3:18 AM scsijon wrote:
1/ an expert is someone who was once a newbie!
Sure. When learned. From someone or something.
2/ a newbie can usually understand what another newbie is asking better than an expert!
Sure he can understand, but can he solve the problem? OJ -- [Unbreakable Vows] `Fred and George tried to get me to make one when I was about five.? [...] `Only time I've ever seen Dad as angry as Mum. Fred reckons his left buttock has never been the same since.? (Harry Potter 6)
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 12:50:58PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:
2/ a newbie can usually understand what another newbie is asking better than an expert!
Sure he can understand, but can he solve the problem?
Yes. It depends on the problem. If the question is where to change the repeat speed of keys in KDE, then he can answer it. If the question is how to compile a new kernel then he can not. It is also the best way to learn things: become a teacher. I remember my first Usenetposting where I read a question and realized I knew the answer. That was great and it encouraged me to learn more. I see the same thing on Usenet. People get in, post questions and suddenly they start answering. Almost all express their pride when the answer is correct. You can almost see the smile on their face as if they are a baby taking its first steps. So yes, the newbie can solve some problems and while doing it he becomes a member of the comunity. On a more comany level, see it as first, second and third level support in a company. You do not want the third level people answering first level problems. You want them to work on third level problems. (The other way around would even be worse. :-) houghi -- Mollison's Bureaucracy Hypothesis: If an idea can survive a bureaucratic review and be implemented it wasn't worth doing.
On 1/26/2006 2:19 PM houghi wrote:
I see the same thing on Usenet. People get in, post questions and suddenly they start answering. Almost all express their pride when the answer is correct. You can almost see the smile on their face as if they are a baby taking its first steps.
I agree. But: There has to be one to answer their first questions. And that is where I fear it might be bad when no "experts" /advanced newbies/... are around. But I only wanted to point out that some people are needed to run a forum, as it is with a mailinglist or a newsgroup. OJ -- "Don't, Ginny, we'll send you loads of owls." "We'll send you a Hogwarts toilet seat." "George!" "Only joking, Mum." (Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone)
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 02:53:42PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:
But I only wanted to point out that some people are needed to run a forum, as it is with a mailinglist or a newsgroup.
So I gather that you agree that there should be a forum? Once the answer if we want a forum yes or no, then we can go to the next step and see how we are going to do it. I think we are thinking to much as engeneers with if, then, else statements. The more I think about it, the more I think there should be a forum. even though I might not be participating, I am sure many others will. houghi -- I can't understand it. I can't even understand the people who can understand it. -- Queen Juliana of the Netherlands.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 04:12:51PM +0100, houghi wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 02:53:42PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:
But I only wanted to point out that some people are needed to run a forum, as it is with a mailinglist or a newsgroup.
So I gather that you agree that there should be a forum? Once the answer if we want a forum yes or no, then we can go to the next step and see how we are going to do it.
Trying to summarize: I think you made a very good point some mails ago: we need to find ways to make opensuse more inviting to end users, and for that trying to integrate existing SUSE linux communities is an important part. This is not restricted to web forums, and best done by talking to these other communities first. The end result would depend on these discussions. ;-) Sonja -- Sonja Krause-Harder (skh@suse.de) Research & Development SUSE Linux Products GmbH
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 04:22:12PM +0100, Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:
I think you made a very good point some mails ago:
Ok, I get it. I should shut up now. ;-) houghi -- Steinbach's Guideline for Systems Programming: Never test for an error condition you don't know how to handle.
Johannes Kastl wrote:
I agree. But: There has to be one to answer their first questions. And that is where I fear it might be bad when no "experts" /advanced newbies/... are around.
there is always somebody to answer... in all the forum/news/mailing list I ever know jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html
I'm going to try and sum things up, since there were a ton of mails since I last checked last night. The biggest reasons for opposition to a forum: 1) Is this shunning the existing community? I don't believe so, I believe this is unifying the community, by having a central, official, place for SUSE on the web in the form of a forum. That said, comments from those running existing forums really is needed. 2) They could just join the mailing list or post up on bugzilla. This is probably the worst reason to oppose a forum. People are familiar with forums, familiar with the web. Sure, we've all come past a life surrounding the www, but not EVERYONE has. In fact, most new users have not. The sheer volume of mail on this list, and others, is far too much for most users to keep up with. I even have trouble sometimes, which is the reason I'm trying to sum everything up in one email. Bugzilla is scary to new users. As I believe pflodo commented, information is asked they don't feel they should give out, don't know how to give, etc, etc. On a forum, questions can be asked directly, they follow specific commands, and they might find its not a problem, perhaps something they did. Even if most users felt comfortable posting on bugzilla, this would mean more work for dev's, since it would take up alot of time reviewing, responding, marking as duplicate, etc, etc, etc. Is this really a solution, or a new problem when asking users new to linux to do this? 3) Extra effort would be needed, taken development time away. I sincerely disagree with this argument. Aside from initial configuration, what main work needs to be done? Moderation? Simple, users will be able to do this. Many of you know many others on this list, who are not Novell employees or otherwise developing, who would happily contribute their time and effort to the community in this way. Theres a very good reason too... this is a way that some people may feel more comfortable contributing. They also will be many of the initial experts on the forum, negating the "who will answer the questions" issue. 4) It would be a duplicate effort of having the mailing list. Definitely have to disagree here too. If it were a duplicated effort, why would SUSE and Linux forums exist? Mailing lists have been around for the various distros forever, so it isn't as if this is a new idea. Theres a reason forums have become popular over mailing lists. The general perception is, a mailing list is for die-hards, and a forum is for general users. You won't, and I have to repeat "won't", be able to change peoples minds on this. Now, aside from those items mentioned, lets bring up a few other things in support of a forum. Not everyone has gmail (or equivalent) with some web interface for their email. Many users have a computer at work, at home, at their significant others' place, etc. A forum lets them log in anywhere, anytime, whether at home, over a family members' house, or at the library. This, imho, is a Very Good Thing (TM). People commonly search for <Insert Topic> and "forum". This, as mentioned, is how many people believe new users best communicate with "experts". So why be limited to a mailing list as the only means of communication. Well, thats it for now, this email is too lengthy as it is. As an aside, I like the idea of a more grassroots approach to finding new users. I myself discuss Linux regularly with many, and have even gotten one of my bosses (my life is Office Space) to make the switch on his tablet, dual boot on his laptop, and one of his home PC's. Friends, relatives, etc, etc. I think more can be done though on a wider scale. Are there any NYC/NJ area users out there who would like to collaberate on getting some ideas together, maybe setting up at libraries and such to show off SUSE, etc? Just send me an email or reply here, whichever, though preferably using a different subject line ;) Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
I'm going to try and sum things up, since there were a ton of mails since I last checked last night.
a agree with mostly if not all what you say... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Quelques images: http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
I'm going to try and sum things up, since there were a ton of mails since I last checked last night.
The biggest reasons for opposition to a forum:
1) Is this shunning the existing community?
I don't believe so, I believe this is unifying the community, by having a central, official, place for SUSE on the web in the form of a forum. That said, comments from those running existing forums really is needed.
It _is_ if we don't involve the maintainers of the currently existing community forums. They are not on this list and "we" are asking the SUSE staff to put up a new forum that will be the official one. As long as we don't involve the maintainers of the current forums, this is happening behind their back. ...
3) Extra effort would be needed, taken development time away.
I sincerely disagree with this argument. Aside from initial configuration, what main work needs to be done? Moderation? Simple, users will be able to do this. Many of you know many others on this list, who are not Novell
Agreed. Some volunteers for moderation speak up. Possibly create an opensuse-forum mailing-list to discuss issues related to it. ...
Well, thats it for now, this email is too lengthy as it is. As an aside, I like the idea of a more grassroots approach to finding new users. I myself
...
You are forgetting a point I've made at the very beginning of this thread, which I think to be very
important.
If there is an official forum, you will *NOT* be able to discuss questions like "how do I play
encrypted DVDs", "how do I copy DVDs", "how do I install emule", "how can I download MP3s", etc...
Such questions will have to be removed from the forum by moderation, or answered as "this is
illegal, get over it". In no way will you be allowed to post links to software that enables one to
do that, because it is illegal in the US (and some other countries too). You'll also have to remove
posts by others that post such links.
An officially endorsed forum makes Novell liable for the content.
If you don't believe me, check out the recent Heise case in Germany.
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
On Thursday 26 January 2006 16:48, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
1) Is this shunning the existing community?
I don't believe so, I believe this is unifying the community, by having a central, official, place for SUSE on the web in the form of a forum. That said, comments from those running existing forums really is needed.
It _is_ if we don't involve the maintainers of the currently existing community forums. They are not on this list and "we" are asking the SUSE staff to put up a new forum that will be the official one. As long as we don't involve the maintainers of the current forums, this is happening behind their back.
Which is exactly why comments from them are needed, agreed.
3) Extra effort would be needed, taken development time away.
I sincerely disagree with this argument. Aside from initial configuration, what main work needs to be done? Moderation? Simple, users will be able to do this. Many of you know many others on this list, who are not Novell
Agreed. Some volunteers for moderation speak up. Possibly create an opensuse-forum mailing-list to discuss issues related to it.
I'm very active on many forums throughout the day - would be willing to do it, especially since wiki work gets taxing sometimes, and I take a break - much like my most recent going-on-a-few-weeks-now break :)
You are forgetting a point I've made at the very beginning of this thread, which I think to be very important.
If there is an official forum, you will *NOT* be able to discuss questions like "how do I play encrypted DVDs", "how do I copy DVDs", "how do I install emule", "how can I download MP3s", etc...
Oh its definitely an issue, I actually forgot to make a comment about that one. Take Fedora for example - with those same issues, anyone making a post in regards to those issues is told to seek out a legal page noting all the media materials that pose legal problems, and workarounds (ie: using ogg over mp3). Now, I think we're also missing something - relicensing. I can't remember the name of the company, but isn't there some effort out there working on relicensing media players (binary only packages once released), with the source still under the GPL? This would negate the issue of legal concerns, though I honestly don't remember whats going on with the company. However, I think there are enough resources out there for media-oriented issues, and that (imho) would remain the place for non-official SUSE forums. Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
On Thursday 26 January 2006 16:48, Pascal Bleser wrote: ...
You are forgetting a point I've made at the very beginning of this thread, which I think to be very important.
If there is an official forum, you will *NOT* be able to discuss questions like "how do I play encrypted DVDs", "how do I copy DVDs", "how do I install emule", "how can I download MP3s", etc...
Oh its definitely an issue, I actually forgot to make a comment about that one. Take Fedora for example - with those same issues, anyone making a post in regards to those issues is told to seek out a legal page noting all the media materials that pose legal problems, and workarounds (ie: using ogg over mp3).
Now, I think we're also missing something - relicensing. I can't remember the name of the company, but isn't there some effort out there working on relicensing media players (binary only packages once released), with the source still under the GPL? This would negate the issue of legal concerns, though I honestly don't remember whats going on with the company.
This is off-topic ;) but no, forget it, it's void as it's a binary-only driver that cannot be redistributed by distribution makers (I guess you refer to fluendo).
However, I think there are enough resources out there for media-oriented issues, and that (imho) would remain the place for non-official SUSE forums.
But you do know that it's the most frequently asked topic, don't you ? ;)
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
On Thursday 26 January 2006 17:16, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
On Thursday 26 January 2006 16:48, Pascal Bleser wrote:
You are forgetting a point I've made at the very beginning of this thread, which I think to be very important.
If there is an official forum, you will *NOT* be able to discuss questions like "how do I play encrypted DVDs", "how do I copy DVDs", "how do I install emule", "how can I download MP3s", etc...
Oh its definitely an issue, I actually forgot to make a comment about that one. Take Fedora for example - with those same issues, anyone making a post in regards to those issues is told to seek out a legal page noting all the media materials that pose legal problems, and workarounds (ie: using ogg over mp3).
Now, I think we're also missing something - relicensing. I can't remember the name of the company, but isn't there some effort out there working on relicensing media players (binary only packages once released), with the source still under the GPL? This would negate the issue of legal concerns, though I honestly don't remember whats going on with the company.
This is off-topic ;) but no, forget it, it's void as it's a binary-only driver that cannot be redistributed by distribution makers (I guess you refer to fluendo).
Yes but atleast somewhat related ;) And thats a shame, I thought the intent was redistribution... oh well.
However, I think there are enough resources out there for media-oriented issues, and that (imho) would remain the place for non-official SUSE forums.
But you do know that it's the most frequently asked topic, don't you ? ;)
*nod*, but not the only asked topic, there are many others - and thats what I think is most important. Someone brings up media, they get pointed to the wiki explaining the situation, saying "Contact your local representative to complain". That leaves us able to do the "lets get your wireless working" thing. I would like to quote something from a forum I'm on daily, linuxgangster.org: "I'm posting this from my laptop. Thank you so fucking much, you are amazing. You're pretty much the only reason I'm still trying Linux, hehe. You and natas." This guy SERIOUSLY wanted Linux, but just couldn't get it to work. Total posts in the thread, about 10. Started off with "It doesn't work, don't know what to do", and went from there. Now THAT is why a forum is needed, he didn't even know where to look - SUSE for him btw. OSS version, ipw2200 drivers needed to be downloaded. Not a big deal, but he just didn't know. Henne, I will gladly contact every forum I know of, I have no problems doing so. I seem to think I'm occasionally personable ;) However, I don't know the owners, and may not be best suited to contact them. Is there anyone who knows the forum owners? If not, I'll contact them, and atleast try to get them to see the discussion on the list here. Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 10:34:16AM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
Henne, I will gladly contact every forum I know of, I have no problems doing so. I seem to think I'm occasionally personable ;) However, I don't know the owners, and may not be best suited to contact them. Is there anyone who knows the forum owners? If not, I'll contact them, and atleast try to get them to see the discussion on the list here.
Just throw it in the group and point to http://www.opensuse.org/Forum-discussion-results like Henne did. Then let the dogs of war tear it appart and pick up the pieces. :-) So post it, see what happens and then come with a conclusion per forum. It could be that the consensus in one groups is completely different from another one. houghi -- In a medium in which a News Piece takes a minute and an "In-Depth" Piece takes two minutes, the Simple will drive out the Complex. -- Frank Mankiewicz
On Friday 27 January 2006 11:10, houghi wrote:
On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 10:34:16AM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
Henne, I will gladly contact every forum I know of, I have no problems doing so. I seem to think I'm occasionally personable ;) However, I don't know the owners, and may not be best suited to contact them. Is there anyone who knows the forum owners? If not, I'll contact them, and atleast try to get them to see the discussion on the list here.
Just throw it in the group and point to http://www.opensuse.org/Forum-discussion-results like Henne did. Then let the dogs of war tear it appart and pick up the pieces. :-)
So post it, see what happens and then come with a conclusion per forum. It could be that the consensus in one groups is completely different from another one.
houghi
Well, I've contacted a variety of owners, administrators, and moderators. The one I'm not sure how to contact is the (former?) owners/admins/mods of suseforums.net, which is currently down, and has been for a week or two. If anyone knows how to get in touch with them, please do. It seems to me, btw, that there are essentially only a handful (as in 3, including suseforums.net which is down) of forums dedicated to SUSE. The rest are primarily offshoots of linuxquestions.org, and other such forums. Considering the success of other "official" forums, such as the previously mentioned forum.gentoo.org and fedoraforum, perhaps there is quite a bit more of the community missing from SUSE than even I originally thought. I've also contacted some owners of SUSE support sites, some of which I have been in touch with before, to get their input as well. I've also offered to forward messages to the list, if they aren't interested in signing up. Now, in regards to the wiki forum discussion results page, I have to comment on a few things: "unless such a forum is bi-directionally gated to e.g. this mailing-list, it will only cause a split in the community" How? The primary people who would be using the forums aren't on the mailing list now, nor will they ever. As I said, you will not suddenly change the view of users out there that hundreds of emails from a list is better for them than a forum. Whats being done now is cutting them out of "official" involvement in the community, by not having one. As far as those on the mailing list goes, they will probably remain on the list. Where exactly is there an issue? Do you really want to add a bunch of "where can I find the opensuse cd's?" type emails to the list? Isn't there plenty of traffic already? They should be two different entities, with two different purposes. "if there is a web forum and there is a very low concentration of "experts" in there, what's the point of it ?" If there is a mailing list, and there is a very low concentration of "experts" on it, whats the point of it? I'm sorry, but I don't think this is something that could qualify as a reason against a forum. "being unable/unwilling to use a mailing-list is not a helpful attitude" Ah... so being unwilling/unable to support the existence of a forum for those that will never see this mailing list *is* a helpful attitude? "if there is no "moderation" or guidance, a forum wont work" I'm sorry... this one I just don't get at all. Of course there would be administrators & moderators... its a crucial forum element. "People are familar with using their mail client - and can have *one* mail client for all mailing lists. For forums, you have another* user interface for each forum" Forums are the most common form of discussion system for new users. The www is their home. Also, as mentioned, they don't necessarily have their email client with them everywhere they have internet access. They also might only be interested in a subforum that has 5-10 posts per day. Consider and compare the volume of this list to a few posts in a subforum of interest, that they can access, read, and leave at their liesure. Are you sure an email client/mailing list is friendly by comparison? "We might upset the old inofficial forum members" Very valid issue, hopefully solved shortly through the contact made to forum owners, admins, and mods. "It would take away resources from the the distribution itself or the work on the build service" Considering the minimal level of effort that needs to be put forth by Novell/SUSE devs, with daily functions being taken care of by members of the community as moderators, I don't see this as really being an issue - perhaps others feel differently, but I don't believe so. "an official forum could raise the expectation that suse staff is participating in there" Perhaps if something were added to the agreement when registering about who is helping, a sticky thread in the main forum as well as sub forums, and perhaps a note on the page would solve this issue. As in repeating "This forum has been set up and provided by Novell/SUSE/however_you'd_phrase_things, but is not staffed by employees. Members contributing to this forum are members of the community. For official tech support, please see novell.com/suse/page_to_support_agreements. Ok, I'm done again - sorry for all the long posts everyone :) Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
Now, in regards to the wiki forum discussion results page, I have to comment on a few things:
"unless such a forum is bi-directionally gated to e.g. this mailing-list, it will only cause a split in the community"
How? The primary people who would be using the forums aren't on the mailing list now, nor will they ever.
OK, fair enough. So you're for maintaining a split community? All can I say is then - if the existing webforum communities are working perfectly fine, is there really a need yet another one? (YAW ... not to be mistaken for a yawn).
They should be two different entities, with two different purposes.
I'm listening.
"if there is no "moderation" or guidance, a forum wont work"
I'm sorry... this one I just don't get at all. Of course there would be administrators & moderators... its a crucial forum element.
Just for my personal education - why is that? Most mailing lists do not need moderation; moderation tends to evolve. Does that not happen in webfora? I am genuinely interested in understanding this.
They also might only be interested in a subforum that has 5-10 posts per day. Consider and compare the volume of this list to a few posts in a subforum of interest, that they can access, read, and leave at their liesure. Are you sure an email client/mailing list is friendly by comparison?
Yep. Try comparing participating in just 10 forums with 10 different user interfaces each on their own screen to participating in 10 mailing-lists with one user-interface on one screen.
Ok, I'm done again - sorry for all the long posts everyone :)
I like your posting above - in a way I appreciate your argument to maintain multiple communities. If that is advantageous, given the different user-profiles, I for one don't see any advantage is creating an "official" opensuse forum. When the existing fora are catering to their matching user-profiles, what good would an "official" opensuse forum add? /Per Jessen, Zürich
On Friday 27 January 2006 16:02, Per Jessen wrote:
Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
Now, in regards to the wiki forum discussion results page, I have to comment on a few things:
"unless such a forum is bi-directionally gated to e.g. this mailing-list, it will only cause a split in the community"
How? The primary people who would be using the forums aren't on the mailing list now, nor will they ever.
OK, fair enough. So you're for maintaining a split community? All can I say is then - if the existing webforum communities are working perfectly fine, is there really a need yet another one? (YAW ... not to be mistaken for a yawn).
Yes, the benefit to it being an additional interface for those who are on both this lift, and would be active in the forum. I can say (and I think this is obvious) that I would certainly remain active in both. As such, there is now a gained advantage in a connection between the two - without having to force extra mails down list subscribers. As I've mentioned, the volume would increase drastically with messages most would want to blow off, and probably put quite a few people off from being on the list. I don't much think this is a good idea, I'd much rather see a few offer up help to act as the interface for the commonly appearing issues, and noting them on here and bugzilla. The need comes into play a bit further down...
They should be two different entities, with two different purposes.
I'm listening.
The mailing list is more of a discussion about OpenSUSE, with project updates, status, requests, comments, etc. It does not much come across as a place to get help, despite the rare few questions asked here. The reason is, as mentioned in other emails, these questions are more commonly asked in a forum. So, as I see it, the mailing list remains as is, an OpenSUSE discussion list, with the forum being a place for new users to get the information and replies they are specifically looking for. It will also serve as a place for those considering SUSE, but want to get a few questions answered, like "Will XX hardware work with SUSE?".
"if there is no "moderation" or guidance, a forum wont work"
I'm sorry... this one I just don't get at all. Of course there would be administrators & moderators... its a crucial forum element.
Just for my personal education - why is that? Most mailing lists do not need moderation; moderation tends to evolve. Does that not happen in webfora? I am genuinely interested in understanding this.
Generally they do not require much maintenance effort at all. Sometimes, a few users get mildly out of hand, and a discussion needs to be closed off. Also, if it goes OT, personal information gets posted, etc, etc - but nothing major. Thats the reason why I mentioned also that the community can do much of this work, and does not require a Novell employee's constant eye.
They also might only be interested in a subforum that has 5-10 posts per day. Consider and compare the volume of this list to a few posts in a subforum of interest, that they can access, read, and leave at their liesure. Are you sure an email client/mailing list is friendly by comparison?
Yep. Try comparing participating in just 10 forums with 10 different user interfaces each on their own screen to participating in 10 mailing-lists with one user-interface on one screen.
Which is why we should have *one* forum thats an official SUSE forum, one place to go thats the end all be all for legal issues that can be dealt with. As a new user, wouldn't you prefer a forum you can look at here and there, or would you want to get a barrage of emails day in and day out? As a new user, your interest level probably isn't that high that you would want the kind of information a list will offer.
Ok, I'm done again - sorry for all the long posts everyone :)
I like your posting above - in a way I appreciate your argument to maintain multiple communities. If that is advantageous, given the different user-profiles, I for one don't see any advantage is creating an "official" opensuse forum. When the existing fora are catering to their matching user-profiles, what good would an "official" opensuse forum add?
Unfortunately, my good reason for an "official" forum relates to many bad reasons. If anyone here reads up on the dev blogs, you probably have heard about the recent qtforum issue, and many have taken a new home at qtcentre.org, a new, trolltech sponsored site. I won't get into it, but qtforum was purchased, apparently the same with kde-forum, and the site was broken shortly after. It appeared to many of the moderators that the site was purchased and disregarded, perhaps for resale or ad revenue. As a result, they contacted TT, and QtCentre.org was started. With the recent (as yet, not explained, to me atleast) issues with suseforums.net, I have only one reason. As long as Novell/SUSE is around, I know that forum will be around. It won't experience random downtime, be sold to some unknown person(s) who doesn't really care about SUSE or even Linux in general, etc, etc. As a user, and a member of the Linux community as a whole, I'd greatly appreciate knowing that theres one forum out there that I know won't suddenly disappear and become another web billboard, with popups all over, and nothing to do with SUSE at all. Thats why. And I'm glad atleast someone can appreciate my lengthy emails ;) Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
It is possible to integrate mailing lists and forums... this is not a binary choice. That way an email to the list shows up under the thread subject in the forum and vice-versa (a post on the forum shoots out to the list...) I see no reason not to at least mirror these mailing list discussions on a public forum site and let them "live" for others who may not be reading or active now to see later and search... I think it's ridiculous that a forum wasn't up on launch day. This isn't rocket science - it's how you build communities and support users. Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
On Friday 27 January 2006 16:02, Per Jessen wrote:
Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
Now, in regards to the wiki forum discussion results page, I have to comment on a few things:
"unless such a forum is bi-directionally gated to e.g. this mailing-list, it will only cause a split in the community"
How? The primary people who would be using the forums aren't on the mailing list now, nor will they ever.
OK, fair enough. So you're for maintaining a split community? All can I say is then - if the existing webforum communities are working perfectly fine, is there really a need yet another one? (YAW ... not to be mistaken for a yawn).
Yes, the benefit to it being an additional interface for those who are on both this lift, and would be active in the forum. I can say (and I think this is obvious) that I would certainly remain active in both. As such, there is now a gained advantage in a connection between the two - without having to force extra mails down list subscribers. As I've mentioned, the volume would increase drastically with messages most would want to blow off, and probably put quite a few people off from being on the list. I don't much think this is a good idea, I'd much rather see a few offer up help to act as the interface for the commonly appearing issues, and noting them on here and bugzilla.
The need comes into play a bit further down...
They should be two different entities, with two different purposes.
I'm listening.
The mailing list is more of a discussion about OpenSUSE, with project updates, status, requests, comments, etc. It does not much come across as a place to get help, despite the rare few questions asked here. The reason is, as mentioned in other emails, these questions are more commonly asked in a forum. So, as I see it, the mailing list remains as is, an OpenSUSE discussion list, with the forum being a place for new users to get the information and replies they are specifically looking for. It will also serve as a place for those considering SUSE, but want to get a few questions answered, like "Will XX hardware work with SUSE?".
"if there is no "moderation" or guidance, a forum wont work"
I'm sorry... this one I just don't get at all. Of course there would be administrators & moderators... its a crucial forum element.
Just for my personal education - why is that? Most mailing lists do not need moderation; moderation tends to evolve. Does that not happen in webfora? I am genuinely interested in understanding this.
Generally they do not require much maintenance effort at all. Sometimes, a few users get mildly out of hand, and a discussion needs to be closed off. Also, if it goes OT, personal information gets posted, etc, etc - but nothing major. Thats the reason why I mentioned also that the community can do much of this work, and does not require a Novell employee's constant eye.
They also might only be interested in a subforum that has 5-10 posts per day. Consider and compare the volume of this list to a few posts in a subforum of interest, that they can access, read, and leave at their liesure. Are you sure an email client/mailing list is friendly by comparison?
Yep. Try comparing participating in just 10 forums with 10 different user interfaces each on their own screen to participating in 10 mailing-lists with one user-interface on one screen.
Which is why we should have *one* forum thats an official SUSE forum, one place to go thats the end all be all for legal issues that can be dealt with. As a new user, wouldn't you prefer a forum you can look at here and there, or would you want to get a barrage of emails day in and day out?
As a new user, your interest level probably isn't that high that you would want the kind of information a list will offer.
Ok, I'm done again - sorry for all the long posts everyone :)
I like your posting above - in a way I appreciate your argument to maintain multiple communities. If that is advantageous, given the different user-profiles, I for one don't see any advantage is creating an "official" opensuse forum. When the existing fora are catering to their matching user-profiles, what good would an "official" opensuse forum add?
Unfortunately, my good reason for an "official" forum relates to many bad reasons. If anyone here reads up on the dev blogs, you probably have heard about the recent qtforum issue, and many have taken a new home at qtcentre.org, a new, trolltech sponsored site. I won't get into it, but qtforum was purchased, apparently the same with kde-forum, and the site was broken shortly after. It appeared to many of the moderators that the site was purchased and disregarded, perhaps for resale or ad revenue. As a result, they contacted TT, and QtCentre.org was started.
With the recent (as yet, not explained, to me atleast) issues with suseforums.net, I have only one reason. As long as Novell/SUSE is around, I know that forum will be around. It won't experience random downtime, be sold to some unknown person(s) who doesn't really care about SUSE or even Linux in general, etc, etc. As a user, and a member of the Linux community as a whole, I'd greatly appreciate knowing that theres one forum out there that I know won't suddenly disappear and become another web billboard, with popups all over, and nothing to do with SUSE at all.
Thats why. And I'm glad atleast someone can appreciate my lengthy emails ;)
Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
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On Friday 27 January 2006 16:53, Michael K. Dolan Jr. wrote:
It is possible to integrate mailing lists and forums... this is not a binary choice. That way an email to the list shows up under the thread subject in the forum and vice-versa (a post on the forum shoots out to the list...)
I never said it wouldn't be possible... its just, imho, not a good idea. The types of discussions held on this list are not the same type of posts you get in a forum. The quantity of messages on the list would skyrocket, with "Where do I get XXX" and "why won't XX work" over and over again. Considering how many people on here are picky about quoting, html, etc, etc... this is not the place for such questions. As such, its not very worthwhile to have them linked. Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
They also might only be interested in a subforum that has 5-10 posts per day. Consider and compare the volume of this list to a few posts in a subforum of interest, that they can access, read, and leave at their liesure. Are you sure an email client/mailing list is friendly by comparison?
Yep. Try comparing participating in just 10 forums with 10 different user interfaces each on their own screen to participating in 10 mailing-lists with one user-interface on one screen.
Which is why we should have *one* forum thats an official SUSE forum, one place to go thats the end all be all for legal issues that can be dealt with.
This is perhaps religious, but having only ONE official SUSE webforum does nothing to help me manage 10 other webfora. That's the primary reason I dislike webfora - if you use more than one, they become cumbersome and unwieldy. Anyway, that's my personal belief, maybe others can manage fine.
Unfortunately, my good reason for an "official" forum relates to many bad reasons. [snip] With the recent (as yet, not explained, to me atleast) issues with suseforums.net, I have only one reason. As long as Novell/SUSE is around, I know that forum will be around. It won't experience random downtime, be sold to some unknown person(s) who doesn't really care about SUSE or even Linux in general, etc, etc.
That's probably the best reason for having an official forum that I've heard so far. /Per Jessen, Zürich
First of all, let me say that the discussion-wiki-page is quite "ripping sentences from the context". On 01/27/2006 08:59 PM Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
"unless such a forum is bi-directionally gated to e.g. this mailing-list, it will only cause a split in the community"
What the one could have meant is that there is only a limited umber of experts. And forum+mailinglist might be too much for this limited number. Maybe he meant that.
"if there is a web forum and there is a very low concentration of "experts" in there, what's the point of it ?"
If there is a mailing list, and there is a very low concentration of "experts" on it, whats the point of it? I'm sorry, but I don't think this is something that could qualify as a reason against a forum.
There are experts here, but will they move to the new forum? Or where will the mods/admins/advanced user for the forum will come from?
"if there is no "moderation" or guidance, a forum wont work"
I'm sorry... this one I just don't get at all. Of course there would be administrators & moderators... its a crucial forum element.
Yeah, of course it is crucial. I guess this quote is quite a bit out of the context. And it was more of a "when doing a forum may I remind you of these tasks" then a " why not to do a forum". What I meant was: You need people who get admins/mods/whatever. There are a lot of people on the lists, and there might be enough around, but you have to find them. OJ -- Microsoft isn't the answer. Microsoft is the question, and the answer is NO. (Unbekannt)
Hi, On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Johannes Kastl wrote:
First of all, let me say that the discussion-wiki-page is quite "ripping sentences from the context".
On 01/27/2006 08:59 PM Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
"unless such a forum is bi-directionally gated to e.g. this mailing-list, it will only cause a split in the community"
What the one could have meant is that there is only a limited umber of experts. And forum+mailinglist might be too much for this limited number. Maybe he meant that.
"if there is a web forum and there is a very low concentration of "experts" in there, what's the point of it ?"
If there is a mailing list, and there is a very low concentration of "experts" on it, whats the point of it? I'm sorry, but I don't think this is something that could qualify as a reason against a forum.
There are experts here, but will they move to the new forum? Or where will the mods/admins/advanced user for the forum will come from?
"if there is no "moderation" or guidance, a forum wont work"
I'm sorry... this one I just don't get at all. Of course there would be administrators & moderators... its a crucial forum element.
Yeah, of course it is crucial. I guess this quote is quite a bit out of the context. And it was more of a "when doing a forum may I remind you of these tasks" then a " why not to do a forum". What I meant was: You need people who get admins/mods/whatever. There are a lot of people on the lists, and there might be enough around, but you have to find them.
You can't create a forum simply by configuring the appropriate software and (s)electing some fellows as moderators. A good forum is a "side product" of good moderators. This is a major difference between a forum and a mailing list. So we should at this moment not create anything, but glue the existing. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
On 01/30/2006 01:06 AM Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
You can't create a forum simply by configuring the appropriate software and (s)electing some fellows as moderators. A good forum is a "side product" of good moderators.
Just what I said above (or wanted to say and could not?).
This is a major difference between a forum and a mailing list.
-v please
So we should at this moment not create anything, but glue the existing.
Is one of the options, and what I saw til now the option most users/mods in the linux-club are in favor of. OJ -- "A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it." (Oscar Wilde)
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 10:48:01PM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:
An officially endorsed forum makes Novell liable for the content.
What about on this mailinglist What if I where to link to the infamous rpm that will aloow you to do the forbidden? Wll that mail be removed as well? What if somebody comes here as a new user and says: Hey I found this link to http://example.com/dir/bilvdvscc.rpm that will allow you to make coffee. What if this is done on the newsgroups, or on a list available on gmane where removal per mail is not possible? houghi -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion.
On Thu, 2006-01-26 at 23:43 +0100, houghi wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 10:48:01PM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:
An officially endorsed forum makes Novell liable for the content.
What about on this mailing list What if I where to link to the infamous rpm that will allow you to do the forbidden? Will that mail be removed as well?
What if somebody comes here as a new user and says: Hey I found this link to http://example.com/dir/bilvdvscc.rpm that will allow you to make coffee.
What if this is done on the newsgroups, or on a list available on gmane where removal per mail is not possible? I don't think that Novell can be held responsible for things they have no control over. Someone posting a message on any type of public forum cannot be controlled other than removing their access which happens after the fact.
-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kenneth Schneider wrote:
On Thu, 2006-01-26 at 23:43 +0100, houghi wrote:
An officially endorsed forum makes Novell liable for the content. What about on this mailing list What if I where to link to the infamous rpm
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 10:48:01PM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote: that will allow you to do the forbidden? Will that mail be removed as well?
What if somebody comes here as a new user and says: Hey I found this link to http://example.com/dir/bilvdvscc.rpm that will allow you to make coffee.
What if this is done on the newsgroups, or on a list available on gmane where removal per mail is not possible?
I don't think that Novell can be held responsible for things they have no control over. Someone posting a message on any type of public forum cannot be controlled other than removing their access which happens after the fact.
But that's exactly the ruling in Germany in the Heise case.
They run forums. They have to moderate everything because even having a link to illegal software
(even in a comment from anyone) is considering Heise to be responsible for it.
It's utterly stupid but that's the court ruling.
So do keep such issues in mind. One would hardly go after some forum maintained by a community, but
if it's officially endorsed by Novell/SUSE, it's a different thing.
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
But that's exactly the ruling in Germany in the Heise case. They run forums. They have to moderate everything because even having a link to illegal software (even in a comment from anyone) is considering Heise to be responsible for it. It's utterly stupid but that's the court ruling.
So do keep such issues in mind. One would hardly go after some forum maintained by a community, but if it's officially endorsed by Novell/SUSE, it's a different thing. Let's raise donations then and start a US based 501(c)(3) community and
Pascal Bleser wrote: license the OpenSUSE trademark from Novell... This is not a reason to block creating a forum.
On 1/27/06, houghi
On Thu, Jan 26, 2006 at 10:48:01PM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:
An officially endorsed forum makes Novell liable for the content.
This argument holds no water against a web based forum. Novell has already accepted liability and allowed me (with my Novell login) to post material on the opensuse.org website via the wiki. The fact that it is different software is immaterial. Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin
At 10:50 PM 26/01/2006, Johannes Kastl wrote: cut
2/ a newbie can usually understand what another newbie is asking better than an expert!
Sure he can understand, but can he solve the problem?
not always, but she/he can also paraphrase the question into the manner that an "expert" understands exactly what was origonally asked. also, a newbie does seem to monitor a mailsystem better and can point another newbie and expert that this happened x months ago and to check the archives and were off topic here so could we end it here please scsijon
participants (12)
-
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
houghi -
jdd -
Johannes Kastl -
Joseph M. Gaffney -
Kenneth Schneider -
Michael K. Dolan Jr. -
Pascal Bleser -
Per Jessen -
Peter Flodin -
scsijon -
Sonja Krause-Harder