[opensuse] Missing device for /boot/efi ???
I created a %0 GB btrfs partition on one of my new SSDs, in preparation for a test install of 15.1. I used YaST and it said: "Warning "The system might not be able to boot: "Missing device for /boot/efi with size equal or bigger than 256 MiB and filesystem vfat Do you want to continue?" It's just said it again as I'm preparing to reformat a Windows data partition the machine came with so I can make use of the space. What is this all about? The machine has /dev/sda1 vfat 96M 56M 41M 58% /boot/efi and has previously booted well. Why should creating a partition on a new disk or indeed reformatting a previously unused partition on an existing disk cause trouble for booting? A quick search turned up something on the factory list during 15.0 beta, but I didn't read because presumably whatever the issue was it was fixed? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 06/12/2019 à 18:22, Dave Howorth a écrit :
I created a %0 GB btrfs partition on one of my new SSDs, in preparation for a test install of 15.1. I used YaST and it said:
"Warning
"The system might not be able to boot:
"Missing device for /boot/efi with size equal or bigger than 256 MiB and filesystem vfat Do you want to continue?"
It's just said it again as I'm preparing to reformat a Windows data partition the machine came with so I can make use of the space.
What is this all about?
you try to install in EFI mode, it needs a partition for boot software, 90M is not enough. The best is 512M jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 20:03:18 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Le 06/12/2019 à 18:22, Dave Howorth a écrit :
I created a %0 GB btrfs partition on one of my new SSDs, in preparation for a test install of 15.1. I used YaST and it said:
oops: I pressed shift when I pressed 5, so it should read 50 GB.
"Warning
"The system might not be able to boot:
"Missing device for /boot/efi with size equal or bigger than 256 MiB and filesystem vfat Do you want to continue?"
It's just said it again as I'm preparing to reformat a Windows data partition the machine came with so I can make use of the space.
What is this all about?
you try to install in EFI mode, it needs a partition for boot software, 90M is not enough. The best is 512M
I'm not trying to install anything. I'm just trying to format two partitions. And when I did do the install, it (boot) all worked, and has worked up until now, so why is it complaining? Why does /boot/efi need to be so big anyway?
jdd
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On Fri, Dec 06, 2019 at 07:35:53PM +0000, Dave Howorth wrote:
[...]
And when I did do the install, it (boot) all worked, and has worked up until now, so why is it complaining?
Why does /boot/efi need to be so big anyway?
How much space is needed there depends on whether you are using secure boot or not and whether you are multi-booting. But in my experience the openSUSE default (which the installer insists on) seems over-cautiously large. -- ============================ Roger Whittaker roger@disruptive.org.uk ============================ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 20:03:18 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Le 06/12/2019 à 18:22, Dave Howorth a écrit :
I created a %0 GB btrfs partition on one of my new SSDs, in preparation for a test install of 15.1. I used YaST and it said:
oops: I pressed shift when I pressed 5, so it should read 50 GB.
"Warning
"The system might not be able to boot:
"Missing device for /boot/efi with size equal or bigger than 256 MiB and filesystem vfat Do you want to continue?"
It's just said it again as I'm preparing to reformat a Windows data partition the machine came with so I can make use of the space.
What is this all about?
you try to install in EFI mode, it needs a partition for boot software, 90M is not enough. The best is 512M
I'm not trying to install anything. I'm just trying to format two partitions.
Why use YasT for that ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.3°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/12/2019 21.47, Per Jessen wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 20:03:18 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <> wrote:
Le 06/12/2019 à 18:22, Dave Howorth a écrit :
It's just said it again as I'm preparing to reformat a Windows data partition the machine came with so I can make use of the space.
What is this all about?
you try to install in EFI mode, it needs a partition for boot software, 90M is not enough. The best is 512M
I'm not trying to install anything. I'm just trying to format two partitions.
Why use YasT for that ?
Good question. maybe because it also writes fstab entries. Otherwise, I would use gparted. I have sometimes used yast to format a partition so that the format command gets the correct or best options. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iFwEARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXerYwwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1bK6AJsEaA8myuXOcUG+yM7tWvnlL0yz0wCXf+6J5X63rjcyYtERe6eDJ3T95Q== =0Fao -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-06-19 17:42]:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 06/12/2019 21.47, Per Jessen wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 20:03:18 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <> wrote:
Le 06/12/2019 à 18:22, Dave Howorth a écrit :
It's just said it again as I'm preparing to reformat a Windows data partition the machine came with so I can make use of the space.
What is this all about?
you try to install in EFI mode, it needs a partition for boot software, 90M is not enough. The best is 512M
I'm not trying to install anything. I'm just trying to format two partitions.
Why use YasT for that ?
Good question.
maybe because it also writes fstab entries.
Otherwise, I would use gparted.
I have sometimes used yast to format a partition so that the format command gets the correct or best options.
but, one could also create the partition(s) and utilize yast (after the fact) to create the fstab entries ... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/12/2019 23.48, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-06-19 17:42]:
On 06/12/2019 21.47, Per Jessen wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
Why use YasT for that ?
Good question.
maybe because it also writes fstab entries.
Otherwise, I would use gparted.
I have sometimes used yast to format a partition so that the format command gets the correct or best options.
but, one could also create the partition(s) and utilize yast (after the fact) to create the fstab entries ...
Reminds me. I usually did a backup of the fstab file before using yast partitioner, because often it would be borked if my version was heavily edited with tabs and comments. So I reverted to my version addint the new line yast had added. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXerbrQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1UL+AJ0ZraRiNil5Bnymti0RClWUQKUETwCeMeg2IhiGRuAMzVav2yumIa9wByM= =A7vv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-06-19 17:58]:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 06/12/2019 23.48, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [12-06-19 17:42]:
On 06/12/2019 21.47, Per Jessen wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
Why use YasT for that ?
Good question.
maybe because it also writes fstab entries.
Otherwise, I would use gparted.
I have sometimes used yast to format a partition so that the format command gets the correct or best options.
but, one could also create the partition(s) and utilize yast (after the fact) to create the fstab entries ...
Reminds me. I usually did a backup of the fstab file before using yast partitioner, because often it would be borked if my version was heavily edited with tabs and comments. So I reverted to my version addint the new line yast had added.
yes, I have done the same :) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 21:47:56 +0100 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 20:03:18 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Le 06/12/2019 à 18:22, Dave Howorth a écrit :
I created a %0 GB btrfs partition on one of my new SSDs, in preparation for a test install of 15.1. I used YaST and it said:
oops: I pressed shift when I pressed 5, so it should read 50 GB.
"Warning
"The system might not be able to boot:
"Missing device for /boot/efi with size equal or bigger than 256 MiB and filesystem vfat Do you want to continue?"
It's just said it again as I'm preparing to reformat a Windows data partition the machine came with so I can make use of the space.
What is this all about?
you try to install in EFI mode, it needs a partition for boot software, 90M is not enough. The best is 512M
I'm not trying to install anything. I'm just trying to format two partitions.
Why use YasT for that ?
Why not? It's the tool the distro provides to make life easy. And no, I'm not touching fstab, and neither is YaST. So, does anybody have any idea whether I need to worry about this /boot/efi warning or not? I don't like messing with my boot configuration unecessarily. AFAICT, the partition was created by Acer when they originally set up Windows on the disk in 2015. And I've never seen this warning before, so why has it started? I don't see how a 'small' boot partition can cause the system to fail to boot? It's not written to at boot time I think. And surely if it isn't big enough when I upgrade to 15.1 for some reason, the installer will prompt me to enlarge it? So why is it warning me now? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 07/12/2019 à 12:37, Dave Howorth a écrit :
So, does anybody have any idea whether I need to worry about this /boot/efi warning or not?
you may. check in yast is the boot manager is grub2 or grub2_efi in the later case, this partition is mandatory
seen this warning before, so why has it started?
you may have booted your install media in efi mode
I don't see how a 'small' boot partition can cause the system to fail to boot? It's not written to at boot time I think.
you are wrong. EFI writes boot manager to this partition after that you can choose the OS to start in the UEFI firmware jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 12:48:24 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Le 07/12/2019 à 12:37, Dave Howorth a écrit :
So, does anybody have any idea whether I need to worry about this /boot/efi warning or not?
you may.
check in yast is the boot manager is grub2 or grub2_efi
It's GRUB2 for EFI with secure boot enabled.
in the later case, this partition is mandatory
Yes, I know.
seen this warning before, so why has it started?
you may have booted your install media in efi mode
Every time since I bought the computer; that's nothing new.
I don't see how a 'small' boot partition can cause the system to fail to boot? It's not written to at boot time I think.
you are wrong. EFI writes boot manager to this partition
When?
after that you can choose the OS to start in the UEFI firmware
jdd
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/12/2019 14.39, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 12:48:24 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
you are wrong. EFI writes boot manager to this partition
When?
When you use the YaST boot manager, or when you update some package that has components there. I suspect the Jdd thinks that you are installing the system. You are not, your system is already installed and running for months. You are changing the format of existing *data* partitions, not touching boot. I think it is a bug in YaST, who is not noticing that the efi partition already exists, but perhaps it is not listed in fstab. So check fstab, and add the entry for the efi partition if it does not exist. For example: UUID=BD39-068A /boot/efi vfat umask=0002,utf8=true 1 2 - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXeu6JgAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1aZ5AKCOrqvjZT3O/BgiVHn9adNUQVvCFwCdGStymnw9PxyRCDUlZcwCiXASS/4= =Czy9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 07/12/2019 à 15:41, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I suspect the Jdd thinks that you are installing the system. You are not, your system is already installed and running for months.
but then there should be an efi partition somewhere. I didn't see this in the tread (but may have missed it, sorry :-() You are
changing the format of existing *data* partitions, not touching boot.
oh... I understood there where no efi partition in the system jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/12/2019 19.23, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 07/12/2019 à 15:41, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I suspect the Jdd thinks that you are installing the system. You are not, your system is already installed and running for months.
but then there should be an efi partition somewhere. I didn't see this in the tread (but may have missed it, sorry :-()
Yes, in the first post: ]> The machine has ]> ]> /dev/sda1 vfat 96M 56M 41M 58% /boot/efi :-) It seems to be a line from df. Then there must be also a line for fstab, I thought there wasn't. Full bug of YaST, so time for bugzilla. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXev7YAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1bqqAKCHKO0xj9rdjwqCXDEoMbC9+a+WpACdEY7VnMjfm0nBnk1RZMKunXP+Zqc= =yfEQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 20:20:03 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 07/12/2019 19.23, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 07/12/2019 à 15:41, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I suspect the Jdd thinks that you are installing the system. You are not, your system is already installed and running for months.
but then there should be an efi partition somewhere. I didn't see this in the tread (but may have missed it, sorry :-()
Yes, in the first post:
]> The machine has ]> ]> /dev/sda1 vfat 96M 56M 41M 58% /boot/efi
:-)
It seems to be a line from df. Then there must be also a line for fstab, I thought there wasn't. Full bug of YaST, so time for bugzilla.
I agree, but how to phrase it? What exactly am I complaining about? In a way that makes sense to devs (like me in another life)? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 07/12/2019 à 20:39, Dave Howorth a écrit :
I agree, but how to phrase it? What exactly am I complaining about? In a way that makes sense to devs (like me in another life)?
"on a perfectly working EFI system, yast_partitionmanager ask for an efi partition when one is already there" jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 21:15:11 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Le 07/12/2019 à 20:39, Dave Howorth a écrit :
I agree, but how to phrase it? What exactly am I complaining about? In a way that makes sense to devs (like me in another life)?
"on a perfectly working EFI system, yast_partitionmanager ask for an efi partition when one is already there"
I suppose that's close but it isn't complaining about the absence, just the size, and I still haven't wrapped my head around that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/12/2019 21.49, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 21:15:11 +0100 "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:
Le 07/12/2019 à 20:39, Dave Howorth a écrit :
I agree, but how to phrase it? What exactly am I complaining about? In a way that makes sense to devs (like me in another life)?
"on a perfectly working EFI system, yast_partitionmanager ask for an efi partition when one is already there"
I suppose that's close but it isn't complaining about the absence, just the size, and I still haven't wrapped my head around that.
Just tell that yast partitioner wants to do an EFI partition when there is already one. Copy the messages you get from YaST. Run "save_y2logs" which will create a tar archive and attach it to the bugzilla. If they need something else, they will ask for it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXewirwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1fs8AKCI+REAhUyTtrAlQjWBP6/yRuiBWwCeLtfVSC30Y04f78SCGHTJB9ZwAEs= =4o55 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth composed on 2019-12-07 11:37 (UTC):
So, does anybody have any idea whether I need to worry about this /boot/efi warning or not?
Not!!!
So why is it warning me now?
Just guessing: the only error message available for the condition found, now that you have more devices than previously. It routinely scares people for no good reason, being simply a CYA thing. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 21:47:56 +0100 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
[snip]
I'm not trying to install anything. I'm just trying to format two partitions.
Why use YasT for that ?
Why not? It's the tool the distro provides to make life easy.
I was just being curious, it would not occur to me to start up YasT for formatting a partition. I can type "mkfs -t xxxx" and be done before I even have the right menu in YasT :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/12/2019 08.56, Per Jessen wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 21:47:56 +0100 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
[snip]
I'm not trying to install anything. I'm just trying to format two partitions.
Why use YasT for that ?
Why not? It's the tool the distro provides to make life easy.
I was just being curious, it would not occur to me to start up YasT for formatting a partition. I can type "mkfs -t xxxx" and be done before I even have the right menu in YasT :-)
It occurs to me that YaST would not simply do "mkfs -t xxxx", probably it adds some obscure incantations to the command line. Some of them I would not even think of doing but are convenient. Optimizations, perhaps :-) Then, I do not know what -t does. Ah, type. I would have to look up the types in the manual. maybe it is "ext4", maybe it is "ext4fs". The command line is quite strict with such things. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXe46EAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1WRcAJ97OKFVOF8FlDgqSUu6d/wdgszk7gCfSi65KAzKMkVaVlp7Z9bcyRy5+Eo= =EwCg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 08:56:51 +0100 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 21:47:56 +0100 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
[snip]
I'm not trying to install anything. I'm just trying to format two partitions.
Why use YasT for that ?
Why not? It's the tool the distro provides to make life easy.
I was just being curious, it would not occur to me to start up YasT for formatting a partition. I can type "mkfs -t xxxx" and be done before I even have the right menu in YasT :-)
Ah, OK. I have YaST open on my desktop all the time, so it's just a question of clicking on the partitioner. It would take me (a lot) longer to look up the syntax to format a disk by hand :( I don't do it that often. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth composed on 2019-12-06 19:35 (UTC+0100):
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
software, 90M is not enough. The best is 512M
Why does /boot/efi need to be so big anyway?
Minimum size in the specs is 100M. If the device uses 4k logical sectors and is over ~16TB, then the minimum is 260M. The openSUSE installer inanely complains unless the size is at least 256M. I make all mine 320M. Unless multi- multi- multi- multi- multi- multi- multi- multi- [...] multi-booting with Grub, it's unlikely that more than 25% of 100M will ever be used. Here with 12 entries in /boot/efi/EFI/, freespace on the 320M filesystem is 94%. If using systemd boot instead of Grub, then considerably more space is consumed on the ESP. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 06/12/2019 à 23:27, Felix Miata a écrit :
Dave Howorth composed on 2019-12-06 19:35 (UTC+0100):
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
software, 90M is not enough. The best is 512M
Why does /boot/efi need to be so big anyway?
I read some time ago a long study explaining why, I don't remember the rational. but it's only 500Mb (not Gb), very small even with small ssd jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Howorth -
Felix Miata -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Roger Whittaker