On Tuesday 30 May 2006 18:08, James Knott wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 23:58, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

I have an IBM Thinkpad X30 with a SmartLink winmodem inside of it. This has always been supported by SuSE. The previous release I was running was 9.3.

10.1 has a lot of SmartLink stuff on the DVD (retail) but only for a USB SmartLink modem. I've just spent about 3 hours trying to figure out why there is no 'slamr' module provided but I can't find one.

slamr wasn't GPL, and non-GPL kernel modules were removed for legal reasons

Is that module available elsewhere? I need it for my ThinkPad too.

I'll race you to it.... (but I can't find it)

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 18:23, Paul Howie wrote:

Anyway, maybe this will be useful?

http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/Hardware/slmodem-8718.shtml

Thanks for the link but when I click on the "slmodem download" on that page, all I get is DB_QUERY on a white screen. I think they have a problem.

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 18:50, Paul Howie wrote:

On 30/05/06, Bruce Marshall <bmarsh@bmarsh.com> wrote:

...

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 18:23, Paul Howie wrote:

...

Anyway, maybe this will be useful?

http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/Hardware/slmodem-8718.shtml

Thanks for the link but when I click on the "slmodem download" on that page, all I get is DB_QUERY on a white screen. I think they have a problem.

Try a google for slmodem, there were lots of sources for the sources, maybe one will still be up and running

-- Paul

Yeh there are..... particularly this page is pointed to a lot: http://linmodems.technion.ac.il/packages/smartlink/ But although slmodemd is readily available (as it is in 10.1) the slamr module is only available for pre-defined situations and SuSE is not one of them. (oh surprise....)

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 19:21, Paul Howie wrote:

That page does look to be your best source.  I clearly don't really understand exactly what you need, but isn't this the source tarball?

http://linmodems.technion.ac.il/packages/smartlink/slmodem-2.9.11-20051101. tar.gz

The above is slmodemd which is required but it needs a kernel module to go with it. When the kernel module is loaded, it creates a /dev/slamr0 device which slmodemd then makes usable. slamr is the source needed and I can't find it.

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 18:29, James Knott wrote:

I wonder what's involved with taking the driver provided with 10.0 and adding it to 10.1?

Someone suggested using the source but I don't think there is source for it...

James Knott wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 23:58, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

I have an IBM Thinkpad X30 with a SmartLink winmodem inside of it. This has always been supported by SuSE. The previous release I was running was 9.3.

10.1 has a lot of SmartLink stuff on the DVD (retail) but only for a USB SmartLink modem. I've just spent about 3 hours trying to figure out why there is no 'slamr' module provided but I can't find one. slamr wasn't GPL, and non-GPL kernel modules were removed for legal reasons

Is that module available elsewhere? I need it for my ThinkPad too.

It appears it may be included in the 6th CD, unless that stuff is USB only.

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 18:01, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 23:58, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

I have an IBM Thinkpad X30 with a SmartLink winmodem inside of it. This has always been supported by SuSE. The previous release I was running was 9.3.

10.1 has a lot of SmartLink stuff on the DVD (retail) but only for a USB SmartLink modem. I've just spent about 3 hours trying to figure out why there is no 'slamr' module provided but I can't find one.

slamr wasn't GPL, and non-GPL kernel modules were removed for legal reasons

And I can't find anything on the web.... (yet) It appears SmartLink sold to Conexant and Conexant turned the drivers over to Linuxant who now wants $20 for it. That's not SuSE's fault but it makes it a mess anyway. Linuxant claims there is a free driver (limited to 14.4kb whee) but I can't find that to even prove that their driver would work. I think I'm staying with 9.3 where *everything* worked. I have too many busted things in 10.1 Now this idea of removing all this non-GPL stuff.... what was gained by that? And that is a Novell-only decision, right? And why only things that dealt with the kernel?

On 30/05/06, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Tuesday 2006-05-30 at 18:12 -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

Now this idea of removing all this non-GPL stuff.... what was gained by that? And that is a Novell-only decision, right?

No, it wasn't, AFAIK.

- --

Could SuSE/Novell be looking at full compliance with the new GPL? I believe this will negate the use of any proprietary software. As always, I may be wrong. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Tue, 2006-05-30 at 18:12 -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 18:01, Anders Johansson wrote:

It appears SmartLink sold to Conexant and Conexant turned the drivers over to Linuxant who now wants $20 for it. That's not SuSE's fault but it makes it a mess anyway. Linuxant claims there is a free driver (limited to 14.4kb whee) but I can't find that to even prove that their driver would work.

I think I'm staying with 9.3 where *everything* worked. I have too many busted things in 10.1

Now this idea of removing all this non-GPL stuff.... what was gained by that? And that is a Novell-only decision, right?

Actually it was the kernel devs that dictated it, they didn't ask it to be so they made it mandatory. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 00:02, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

Now this idea of removing all this non-GPL stuff....   what was gained by that?  And that is a Novell-only decision, right?

Actually it was the kernel devs that dictated it, they didn't ask it to be so they made it mandatory.

Then how in heck is Linux ever going to become a mainstream operating system when the kernel can't have proprietary code hung off of it and the vendors aren't that interested in developing proprietary code to begin with? Where do they think this is going to lead? DLL's anyone?

Ken Schneider wrote:

It may turn out that there will no longer be any "SUSE" kernels and there will only be the ones released by the kernel devs.

I believe that is exactly the SUSE plan. With 10.0 and 10.1 they've already cut way back on the SUSE-specific patches. /Per Jessen, Zürich

kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

also, tried to use a source rpm to build a 64 bit w32 codec. the 64 bit rpm is built in /usr/src/packages/RPMS/x86-64, however, after the install yast shows that the installed version is a 32 bit. The codecs ARE 32 bit codecs. Building on x86_64 would only move the 32 bit codecs to the /usr/lib64 tree instead of /usr/lib tree, but nothing else (and in my opinion they should therefore be left in /usr/lib, so just install the i586 version of this rpm). BTW, the firefox in 10.1 is only 32 bit, that's why flash works w. it. This 32/64 bit issue did not move forward at all.

Contact Adobe, which bought out Macromedia. It is closed source, and they apparently cannot or do not want to port it to 64 bit, and will not open the source to let the linux community do what they cannot or will not do. -- Joe Morris Registered Linux user 231871

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 21:43, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello,

On May 31 09:10 kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote (shortened):

...

my hp7350 quits in the middle of printing jobs too often....without any error messages in the logs

If some jobs print, it is for 99.9% sure not a problem in the printing system but a low-level data communication problem.

"too often" means "not always" but what exactly does it mean? Is it reproducilbe e.g. only for jobs above a certain size or only for high-resolution graphics or whatever else?

If it is connected via parallel port, see our support database for the recommended BIOS settings for the parallel port (a bit slow but usually very reliable and sufficient for normal printing). Feel free to try out faster modes if it works o.k. in the old-stlye basic mode.

If it is connected via USB I cannot help you regarding USB data communication problems because it is kernel-internal magic and I am neither a USB expert nor a kernel expert.

If you would have had the time to tell us the exact model name and how it is connected and which logs you inspected, I might have found some more time to help you ;-)

Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5 Mail: jsmeix@suse.de 90409 Nuernberg, Germany WWW: http://www.suse.de/

Johannes, The printer model is HP-7350, as stated. Hewlett Packard, Photosmart series, usb only. has hplip imbedded in the drivers, i upgraded it recently thru hp's site, did not see an improvement. The /var/log/cups/error_log shows absolutely nothing, the only difference between a finished job and a crashed one is seen when i manually kill the job and the log records that when it happens. The stoppage is not repeatable, it displays a random pattern, frequency many times reaches 1 in 3. It stops on local printing jobs from editors, open office, firefox, gimp etc. as well as Samba jobs. I also have vmware installed. When the vmware machines or when another physical machine (small home network, about 2-4 machines connected) print thru samba, the same problem occurs. When i manually remove the usblp module a vmware virual machine (windoze xp or 2000 or even nt) can connect to the printer directly and that is the only time printing is flawless. my son keeps bugging me to switch to xp and gets a lot of pleasure out of teasing me about it, it would surely help my position in the intramural rivalry if this was solved. I think i will retry 9.3 in my play partition, if i recall correctly it did not have the problem, but then the rest of the hardware was not the same at the time either. I have spent probably 100 or more hours googling for it and still can not find relevant answers. You are probably right that it is a communications issue, but how to track it down i have no idea. thanks in advance for any pointers. dimitris -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 00:02, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

...

Now this idea of removing all this non-GPL stuff....   what was gained by that?  And that is a Novell-only decision, right?

Actually it was the kernel devs that dictated it, they didn't ask it to be so they made it mandatory.

Then how in heck is Linux ever going to become a mainstream operating system when the kernel can't have proprietary code hung off of it

But it can quite well - there's no problem in that at all. Well, maybe one of incompatibility when your vendor only provides a module for a certain kernel-version. SUSE/Novell are not telling you not to use non-GPL code/modules, just that they're not shipping any with the distro. /Per Jessen, Zürich

Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 09:58, Per Jessen wrote:

...

SUSE/Novell are not telling you not to use non-GPL code/modules, just that they're not shipping any with the distro.

Fine, but there doesn't seem to be a slamr module built for the SuSE kernel. At least not one that I can find.

I'm sure that's true. No need to tell you this, but then it's time pester the laptop manufacturer. Assuming they claim to suport Linux ... if not, it's time for a new supplier. I'm not quite sure what to say about this problem of non-GPLed drivers. I hesitate blaiming SUSE and lean towards just not buying such products. /Per Jessen, Zürich

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 12:09, BRUCE STANLEY wrote:

...

Fine, but there doesn't seem to be a slamr module built for the SuSE kernel. At least not one that I can find.

I'm sure that's true.  No need to tell you this, but then it's time pester the laptop manufacturer.  Assuming they claim to suport Linux ... if not, it's time for a new supplier.

Well let's think about that for a minute. The laptop was built by IBM about 3 years ago..... and IBM then sold the whole product line to Lenovo. The laptop has a SmartLink modem in it and SmartLink sold that line to Conexant who then turned their driver support over to Linuxand who doesn't at the moment provide a SmartLink driver. Just who do you want me to bug??

BRUCE STANLEY wrote:

The problem will prevent Suse (on any version of Linux that goes down this path) from ever becomming a mainstream Desktop OS.

Just of curiosity - what would you say defines a mainstream Desktop OS? For instance in terms of market-share? As to whether the GPL vs non-GPL drivers issue will prevent Linux from becoming mainstream, I'm not so sure. Very large European public administrations have already gone Linux - perhaps it's not mainstream, but very impressive nonetheless.

or Linux would have to be changed so that users could install drivers from vendors without having to go through complex Kernel rebuilds (dlls, loadable modules, etc.).

I believe some of that is already in the pipeline.

The problem with not buying products lacking open-source drivers is that you will eliminate a large number (most) of  the options for the user to buy.

I beg to differ. So far we use only SUSE Linux, and we've only hit one case where 10.1 did not provide the driver - Atheros wifi. We got it from madwifi instead. Our hardware is very varied - IBM Thinkpads, misc workstations, desktops, Compaq servers.

I was hoping to put  Suse 10.1 on my  IBM T41 laptop, but with the lack of hardware support for the modem, I'll have to pass.

I've put 10.1 on our newly purchased IBM R51e - no significant problems. /Per Jessen, Zürich

On Wednesday, 31 May 2006 12:18, Per Jessen wrote:

I beg to differ. So far we use only SUSE Linux, and we've only hit one case where 10.1 did not provide the driver - Atheros wifi. We got it from madwifi instead. Our hardware is very varied - IBM Thinkpads, misc workstations, desktops, Compaq servers.

I concur. We have tested it on several platforms so far, and we haven't had problems which weren't easily fixed. All of those problems were with Wi-Fi drivers. ndsiswrapper or madwifi has fixed every single laptop. I have an Acer Ferrari 4006WLMi (the newest hardware in our entire division). Everything on it works---everything. The ndiswrapper solution fixed the Wi-Fi adapter (Broadcom chipset). The laptop is screaming fast. It boots faster than 10.0 did (by about 10 seconds---yes, we timed it before and after installing 10.1). I modified the KDE splash screen to use the Fingerprint screen. Under SuSE 10 I would see the numbers count as processes started. Under 10.1 I never see the numbers---it is that fast. Servers, desktops, workstations, laptops---Suse 10.1 has run on every platform we have tested so far, and the ONLY problems we have encountered have been with laptops, and ndiswrapper or madwifi fixed those issues. No graphics-card problems, no X problems, no SCSI problems. We are pleased. We will install it on all new harware which is purchased, and will gradually move some current hardware to 10.1. As I said in another thread, we test several distributions of Linux and several variations of BSD. We keep coming back to SuSE. It "just works" for us. If only SuSE still maintained a release for the Sparc, we could rip Slowaris 9 off of our Sun boxes....

BRUCE STANLEY wrote:

Main stream = large scale usage of OS by Non-technical users as well as technical users. This includes home users as well.

Except for non-technical home users, the non-GPL issue will not prevent Linux going mainstream, then.

The WiFi Module requires you to be a technical user to install it, thus preventing non-techs from general usage.

Except if the nontech works in a large corporation or elsewhere where such issues are dealt with by support staff. If it hasn't already, I think we'll see Linux hit the corporate mainstream way before it hits the home mainstream.

I also do believe that for the IBM laptops there is problem with finding a driver for the internal modem (discussed in this thread). Yes, some of use still use modems.

Yes and yes. I'm certainly not denying the problem, I'm just saying it wasn't created by SUSE.

Bottom line, if you do not provide drivers to the users (non-techs I mean) that are at least is easy to install as on Windows XP, you will not make much inroads to that user base.

Perhaps it's worth considering that the nontechie home user probably isn't Novells primary target. There aren't many services to be sold in that market, and services are what makes open source go round. But, by Novell not properly addressing this market, it creates a decent sized niche for someone to build a nontechie home user SUSE Linux++ which does include all that non-GPL stuff. /Per -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 01/06/06, Bruce Marshall <bmarsh@bmarsh.com> wrote:

On Thursday 01 June 2006 02:51, Per Jessen wrote:

...

BRUCE STANLEY wrote:

...

Main stream = large scale usage of OS by Non-technical users as well as technical users. This includes home users as well.

Except for non-technical home users, the non-GPL issue will not prevent Linux going mainstream, then.

Oh really? So the rest of us are supposed to spend the 5 days I spent trying to find solutions and solve problems? Those are 5 days that I *didn't* have to spend on 9.3 or 10.0

We're not going in the right direction.

I agree with getting rid of proprietary modules but not when there isn't an OSS one to easily replace it. The solution is quite simple. Work on replacement and do them properly. Not do a major clear out with nothing left to replace. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 01/06/06, Bruce Marshall <bmarsh@bmarsh.com> wrote:

On Thursday 01 June 2006 08:08, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

...

We're not going in the right direction.

I agree with getting rid of proprietary modules but not when there isn't an OSS one to easily replace it. The solution is quite simple. Work on replacement and do them properly. Not do a major clear out with nothing left to replace.

I don't think the 'replace' option is possible or viable. If I were to reverse engineer the nVidia driver, wouldn't I be open to lawsuit?

Does it have to be a reverse engineered Nvidia driver? It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to be arsy here. I really don't know enough on this subject so please forgive me if I ask (what to others would be) a blatantly obvious question. We have plenty of other drivers doing the same job as proprietary software that has not been reverse engineered...or do we? -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thursday 01 June 2006 14:24, Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Thursday 01 June 2006 09:07, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

Does it have to be a reverse engineered Nvidia driver?  It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to be arsy here.  I really don't know enough on this subject so please forgive me if I ask (what to others would be) a blatantly obvious question.  We have plenty of other drivers doing the same job as proprietary software that has not been reverse engineered...or do we?

Well, a graphics card or any other piece of hardware can be a pretty complex thing.... registers to load, instruction sets, etc. How does one find out all that information without doing some reverse engineering....? If the vendor doesn't want to part with that information.... a graphics card is just a piece of junk.

Don't buy from that vendor then. Buy from someone a bit more co-operative, write to the original company telling them you're not buying their kit and why. -- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB Tel: 0161 834 7961 Fax: 0161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 02/06/06, Fergus Wilde <fwilde@chethams.org.uk> wrote:

On Thursday 01 June 2006 14:24, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

On Thursday 01 June 2006 09:07, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

Does it have to be a reverse engineered Nvidia driver? It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to be arsy here. I really don't know enough on this subject so please forgive me if I ask (what to others would be) a blatantly obvious question. We have plenty of other drivers doing the same job as proprietary software that has not been reverse engineered...or do we?

Well, a graphics card or any other piece of hardware can be a pretty complex thing.... registers to load, instruction sets, etc. How does one find out all that information without doing some reverse engineering....? If the vendor doesn't want to part with that information.... a graphics card is just a piece of junk.

Don't buy from that vendor then. Buy from someone a bit more co-operative, write to the original company telling them you're not buying their kit and why.

This is exactly what I do :-) I made the mistake of purchasing a Canon LiDE 50 scanner a couple of years ago. At that time I was 100% Microsoft (I had dallied with Linux for years but never had a fully productive system). Had I been using Linux properly at the time I would not have purchased this particular scanner and I have written and told Canon this. I have repeatedly badgered them into providing Linux drivers for all their products. However, it needs everyone to do this. Nowadays I always do my research into hardware. If it does not run under Linux I don't buy it and I let the manufacturer know that they have lost a sale. Again, I hope I am not a lone voice shouting into the wind. Now, do I have this straight? We can have drivers that load into Linux (userspace) but are quite separate from the kernel? If this is the case then I'm all for it. For one thing not related to the legal aspects it keeps the kernel smaller surely? -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 02/06/06, Bryan J. Smith <b.j.smith@ieee.org> wrote:

On Fri, 2006-06-02 at 12:14 +0100, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

This is exactly what I do :-) I made the mistake of purchasing a Canon LiDE 50 scanner a couple of years ago. At that time I was 100% Microsoft (I had dallied with Linux for years but never had a fully productive system). Had I been using Linux properly at the time I would not have purchased this particular scanner and I have written and told Canon this. I have repeatedly badgered them into providing Linux drivers for all their products. However, it needs everyone to do this.

Unfortunately, they are catering to 90+% of superstore consumers. That means cost is supreme. That also means they want the hardware to work only 1 PC cycle (system, OS, software and other peripherals) -- i.e., 3 or less years (typical US business GAAP depreciation cycle).

So instead of building capable hardware, they use minimal hardware with software. And that means they license the software from a 3rd party that sells the same software to countless other companies. Software that will be useful for only 1 Windows version.

Which means they don't own the IP. Which means they can't sell it. And they don't care, because it costs them peanuts per unit, but just works for them -- which sells the product to 90+% of superstore consumers.

Even HP licenses many things from 3rd parties, and can't always open source support. It has the most support of any major vendor -- short of 800lbs. Intel who forces many to sell only their hardware (and its IP) -- but even it is missing lots of support from any of its peripherals.

...

Nowadays I always do my research into hardware. If it does not run under Linux I don't buy it and I let the manufacturer know that they have lost a sale. Again, I hope I am not a lone voice shouting into the wind.

Unfortunately, we're the overwhelming minority. We're not like 90+% of superstore consumers. We want hardware that not only works on Linux, but works on multiple Windows versions.

The superstore model is designed to cater to consumers who believe anytime they upgrade their PC, OS, software or peripherals, they have to buy _all_ 4. Again, this is about every 3 years -- not only for consumers, but for US businesses as well (on their standard 3 year depreciation cycle).

I'm like you. When I guy, I want _real_ hardware. I'll pay 2-3x to get it. I know it will last. Like my 10 year-old MicroTek SCSI scanner, my Thustmaster Attack Throttle+Joystick set, etc... -- many things that don't work correctly under Windows XP, but have worked on Linux for almost 10 years!

...

Now, do I have this straight? We can have drivers that load into Linux (userspace) but are quite separate from the kernel?

Yes and no.

Yes, that's how ATI, Matrox, nVidia, etc... LibGL, X11 and GLX drivers do work. They are open standard, closed source.

But no, for massive performance gain, they need select interconnect-memory support that is under (largely) Intel IP, because it's Intel who controls how the software code that hacks peripheral busses to look like a system interconnect (maintain coherency with CPUs, etc...) to support AGP, PCIe, etc... video cards. Heck, it wasn't until PCIe came out that Intel freed up some IP on AGP so nVidia could finally release its nForce AGPgart.

Intel has decided to not release it for its own video cards. Can't remember if Matrox uses a kernel driver or not. ATI and nVidia do, with major performance boosts.

ATI and nVidia use an unified codebase across all platforms, which is why their Linux performance isn't lackluster versus Windows -- unlike Intel.

...

If this is the case then I'm all for it. For one thing not related to the legal aspects it keeps the kernel smaller surely?

Unfortunately, you can't do some things in user-space.

Like hack the peripheral interconnect in software, so it acts like a CPU on its system interconnect. That requires kernel level integration.

Again, if AMD buys ATI, one of the major reasons might be to finally address this last Intel folly and limitation -- one AMD's architecture doesn't have.

Thank you Bryan. That's addressed my questions nicely. I will not try to pretend that I understand it 100% but I do have a bit more of an understanding of it now. I'm grateful that you have taken the time to explain it to me. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote: BRUCE STANLEY wrote:

Main stream = large scale usage of OS by Non-technical users as well as technical users. This includes home users as well.

Except for non-technical home users, the non-GPL issue will not prevent Linux going mainstream, then.

Bottom line, if you do not provide drivers to the users (non-techs I mean) that are at least is easy to install as on Windows XP, you will not make much inroads to that user base.

Perhaps it's worth considering that the nontechie home user probably isn't Novells primary target. There aren't many services to be sold in that market, and services are what makes open source go round. But, by Novell not properly addressing this market, it creates a decent sized niche for someone to build a nontechie home user SUSE Linux++ which does include all that non-GPL stuff. /Per Then, the reviews that I have been reading about Suse making inroads to the general Desktop Market (again including general no-tech users) is either false, or Suse has changed it's mind. Perhaps Debian base distros then will win the day, or MS will continue to dominate.

James Knott wrote:

...

As to whether the GPL vs non-GPL drivers issue will prevent Linux from becoming mainstream, I'm not so sure. Very large European public administrations have already gone Linux - perhaps it's not mainstream, but very impressive nonetheless.

It's a problem if it makes it impossible to use commonly available hardware.

I agree it's a problem, but that's not the same as preventing Linux from mainstream - whatever that means.

...

I beg to differ. So far we use only SUSE Linux, and we've only hit one case where 10.1 did not provide the driver - Atheros wifi. We got it from madwifi instead. Our hardware is very varied - IBM Thinkpads, misc workstations, desktops, Compaq servers.

I have an IBM ThinkPad R31, which uses the slamr modem driver. Will it still work in 10.1? 10.2?

Isn't that what this thread started out discussing - that 10.1 does not have the slamr module.

If a manufacturer chooses to make a non-GPL module, what's the problem??? I'm not saying SUSE or other has to include it, but to actually prevent it from being used??? That's nonsense!!!

But they're not. SUSE may not be distributing a non-GPL module/driver, but nothing can prevent you from retrieving it from elsewhere. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 07:40:59AM -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Thursday 01 June 2006 02:31, Per Jessen wrote:

...

James Knott wrote:

...

...

As to whether the GPL vs non-GPL drivers issue will prevent Linux from becoming mainstream, I'm not so sure. Very large European public administrations have already gone Linux - perhaps it's not mainstream, but very impressive nonetheless.

It's a problem if it makes it impossible to use commonly available hardware.

I agree it's a problem, but that's not the same as preventing Linux from mainstream - whatever that means.

Ok, I used the term 'mainstream'. Let's replace that usage with the phrase 'more popular or more used'. In otherwords, if hardware isn't supported then no one will want to or *can* use the software.

Now, if the kernel developers come up with a common and well-defined interface for proprietary modules and make it well known to the hardware vendors, then overall that would be a Good Thang (tm). I guess that is their plan but it seems they jumped the gun a bit and have made the situation worse in the short-term.

The actual way to go is to get rid of proprietary modules. I really wonder why some people want them and not OSS drivers... Ciao, Marcus -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thursday 01 June 2006 08:06, Gaël Lams wrote:

Binary-only drivers run at a really privileged security level which gives them access to anything on your system, and if they screw up it can be a disaster. With drivers that have full source available, people can see what the driver is doing and make corrections as required. Using binary drivers makes you dependent on the vendors who provide them for fixing bugs and honestly, if I moved to Linux, it's to avoid it.

"full source available" is never going to happen for most of the hardware we currently operateor future hardware. Deal with that thought! Either linux finds a way to allow use of proprietary code or it dies. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 6/1/06, Bruce Marshall <bmarsh@bmarsh.com> wrote:

"full source available" is never going to happen for most of the hardware we currently operateor future hardware. Deal with that thought!

Either linux finds a way to allow use of proprietary code or it dies.

I think that is right .. linux has to find a way to accept/accomodate the use of proprietary drivers. I don't know enough about the architecture, but is there not, in linux, a "HAL" that exists outside of the kernel? Can't the kernel "access" non-OSS driver software via a "generic" abstraction, and thus proprietarty stuff does not per-se "contaminate" the kernel/OSS material? It just seems as though the SUSE kernel dev guys attitude "after feb 2008 we will prevent non-oss USB code from intitializing" --- is harsh, unless there is an alternative way to provide access to such hardware -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Per Jessen wrote:

Peter Van Lone wrote:

...

It just seems as though the SUSE kernel dev guys attitude "after feb 2008 we will prevent non-oss USB code from intitializing" --- is harsh, unless there is an alternative way to provide access to such hardware

But there is an alternative way. As far as I've understood, that's why Greg KH found it reasonable to set a deadline.

What's the alternative? -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:20 -0500, Peter Van Lone wrote:

On 6/1/06, Bruce Marshall <bmarsh@bmarsh.com> wrote:

...

"full source available" is never going to happen for most of the hardware we currently operateor future hardware. Deal with that thought!

Either linux finds a way to allow use of proprietary code or it dies.

I think that is right .. linux has to find a way to accept/accomodate the use of proprietary drivers.

I don't know enough about the architecture, but is there not, in linux, a "HAL" that exists outside of the kernel? Can't the kernel "access" non-OSS driver software via a "generic" abstraction, and thus proprietarty stuff does not per-se "contaminate" the kernel/OSS material?

It just seems as though the SUSE kernel dev guys attitude "after feb 2008 we will prevent non-oss USB code from intitializing" --- is harsh, unless there is an alternative way to provide access to such hardware

Looks like a date to have another distro in the works for install. Must be nice to -think- you are a big enough distro to bully your customers. I was raised to -always- treat the customer first, the customer is -always- right no matter what. Unless you don't care about going out of business. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 20:03 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Ken Schneider wrote:

...

...

It just seems as though the SUSE kernel dev guys attitude "after feb 2008 we will prevent non-oss USB code from intitializing" --- is harsh, unless there is an alternative way to provide access to such hardware

Looks like a date to have another distro in the works for install. Must be nice to -think- you are a big enough distro to bully your customers. I was raised to -always- treat the customer first, the customer is -always- right no matter what. Unless you don't care about going out of business.

Ken, that deadline has nothing whatsoever to do with SUSE nor Novell. It was set by a kernel developer, Greg Kroah-Hartmann - and although he is paid by SUSE/Novell, I doubt if they've "put him up this".

It is not about being a big distro, nor about bullying anyones customers, it's about all the distros (and all of us) relying on the free work of other people.

If you disagree with Greg KHs decision, you might need to remain on an increasingly dated kernel for which support will dwindle away, or even migrate back to Windows.

I don't disagree with not using binary only drivers in the system space I am only against taking away something that has worked well and -NOT- offering a working replacement. And this is really not directed just at Novell but any distro something without offering a working replacment. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 08:18:53AM -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

"full source available" is never going to happen for most of the hardware we currently operateor future hardware. Deal with that thought!

Either linux finds a way to allow use of proprietary code or it dies.

If that was the case, Linux should have died years ago - all that blob stuff really only came into the picture during the last few years, while Linux started gaining pace at least in the server rooms even before that. So, no, Linux won't die without proprietary code. Linux can only die if there are no people left developping for it - or if it is made illegal (and even then I have my doubts). Cheerio, Thomas -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Fri, 2006-06-02 at 10:33 +0200, T. Ribbrock wrote:

If that was the case, Linux should have died years ago - all that blob stuff really only came into the picture during the last few years, while Linux started gaining pace at least in the server rooms even before that. So, no, Linux won't die without proprietary code. Linux can only die if there are no people left developping for it - or if it is made illegal (and even then I have my doubts).

Let's differentiate between "proprietary" and "open standard." At least OpenGL is an "open standard." And it has an ARB that ensures extensions stay "open standards." People develop for OpenGL, not ATI or nVidia. Just because Intel won't share select IP, and their open source drivers do not support many OpenGL features in Linux that ATI or nVidia do, does not mean you need an ATI or nVidia card because of "proprietary" features. Now I've really taken some "shots" for trying to address these meta-discussions, when I'm _not_ the one that keeps them going. People have barked at me to take them to the OT list, and yet, I'm not the one that keeps them going. Please, please consider this before anyone decides to bring this up yet again. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thursday 01 June 2006 12:48, Marcus Meissner wrote:

The actual way to go is to get rid of proprietary modules.

I really wonder why some people want them and not OSS drivers...

Because the hardware vendors cannot or will not provide the necessary technical information to allow the driver modules to be written. This is usually because they relate to patented material or material licenced from other companies, or the vendor is protecting their own "trade secrets" etc. Reverse engineering or decompiling the proprietry modules is not possible because they would be illegal in many areas. Dylan -- "The man who strikes first admits that his ideas have given out." (Chinese Proverb) -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Kevanf1 <kevanf1@gmail.com> wrote: On 01/06/06, Dylan wrote:

On Thursday 01 June 2006 12:48, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

The actual way to go is to get rid of proprietary modules.

I really wonder why some people want them and not OSS drivers...

Because the hardware vendors cannot or will not provide the necessary technical information to allow the driver modules to be written. This is usually because they relate to patented material or material licenced from other companies, or the vendor is protecting their own "trade secrets" etc. Reverse engineering or decompiling the proprietry modules is not possible because they would be illegal in many areas.

Dylan

Hence, my idea. Take my example. For ages I couldn't use my Canon LiDE 50 USB scanner. SANE did not support it and Canon were totally unwilling to even think about creating a driver for it; I purchased the scanner before I started to use Linux properly, by the way. A guy who does work on the SANE project actually owned a LiDE 50 and so it was inhis interests to write a driver for it. It took him some time but he has done it. So, that's now another piece of hardware that works with Linux. It's a slow drip, drip of drivers (modules if you prefer) but they are coming. Perhaps the day will come when the manufacturers wake up and see the demand? -- Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR Then I'll check back when Suse 20.9 come out :-)

Marcus Meissner wrote:

The actual way to go is to get rid of proprietary modules.

I really wonder why some people want them and not OSS drivers...

I don't think most of us here are against non-GPL drivers. The issue is non-GPL vs no drivers at all. I have some hardware that does not have GPL drivers. Am I not supposed to use it? -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Mike McMullin wrote:

I agree with your question. I am not against closed source drivers if it allows me to use hardware that I bought, I do wish hardware vendors would get it through their thick bean-counters that diddling Linux support is just plain bad business.

It have probably already been said, but it's worth to repeat that Linux programmers don't even ask the hardware manufacturers to make themselve the driver, but only to release the specifications of they material, which is really a good deal... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 13:16 +0200, jdd sur free wrote:

Mike McMullin wrote:

...

I agree with your question. I am not against closed source drivers if it allows me to use hardware that I bought, I do wish hardware vendors would get it through their thick bean-counters that diddling Linux support is just plain bad business.

It have probably already been said, but it's worth to repeat that Linux programmers don't even ask the hardware manufacturers to make themselve the driver, but only to release the specifications of they material, which is really a good deal...

Yes it has been said before, but it doesn't hurt to repeat it. One way or another any OS needs a driver for a piece of hardware. If we cannot get open source then I will settle for closed source. Bean-counters who ignore Linux are not doing their hardware sales any favours. IMO. Mike -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Bryan S. Tyson wrote:

On Thursday 01 June 2006 07:48 am, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

The actual way to go is to get rid of proprietary modules. I really wonder why some people want them and not OSS drivers..

I don't think it's a matter of people wanting proprietary modules, but rather if an OSS driver is not available, they will accept a proprietary one so they can use their hardware.

I don't think your comment is strongly enough expressed for most of us. It's not a matter of wanting proprietary modules, but of wanting something that works. I'd prefer OSS, but I want proprietary, if I can't have OSS. John Perry -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Friday 02 June 2006 01:55, Bryan S. Tyson wrote:

On Thursday 01 June 2006 07:48 am, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

The actual way to go is to get rid of proprietary modules. I really wonder why some people want them and not OSS drivers..

I don't think it's a matter of people wanting proprietary modules, but rather if an OSS driver is not available, they will accept a proprietary one so they can use their hardware.

A post by Arjan van de Ven ( a kernel dev) on LKML 12 dec 2005 sheds a light on the kernel developers view: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=113378006232564&w=2 I copy his "Doomsday scenario" mail here. Follow the link to read the discussion that followed (it was not short :-) -------- Linux in a binary world What if.. what if the linux kernel developers tomorrow accept that binary modules are OK and are essential for the progress of linux. a hypothetical doomsday scenario by Arjan van de Ven the primary assumption in this scenario is obviously not going to happen, but all assumptions that follow are based things that are true in some form or another, but of course the names of the "innocent" have been omitted. On December 6th, 2005 the kernel developers en mass decide that binary modules are legally fine and also essential for the progress of linux, and are as such a desirable thing. At first, the development process of the linux kernel doesn't change much other than a bunch more symbols getting exported, and EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL removed. Within 3 weeks, distributions like Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SuSE's SLES distribution start to include a wide variety of binary modules on their installation CDs. Debian renounces this and stays pure to the cause, as do other open distributions like Fedora Core and openSuSE. The enterprise distros don't just NVidias and ATIs modules, but include all the OEM vendor "fakeraid" modules and the various wireless, winmodem, windsl and TCP-offloading modules as well,. However, unlike NVidia and ATI, most of the binary driver vendors do not provide their drivers in a "glue layer" source form, they provide only the final binaries. Several hardware vendors that have been friendly to open source so far, see their competitors ship only binary drivers, and internally they start to see pressure to also keep the IP private, and they know that they haven't used some features of the hardware because their legal department didn't want that IP in the public. As a result they perceive their competitors binary drivers to be at a theoretical advantage, or at least their own drivers could be at an advantage if they were also closed, because they then can use those few extra features to be ahead of the competition. By February 1st 2006, about half the hardware vendors have refocused their internal linux driver efforts to create value adds in the binary drivers they will release in addition to the open drivers that already exist. Some vendors even openly stopped supporting the open drivers because they don't have enough resources to do both. March 1st. All the new server lines from the top tier hardware vendors come out with the next generation storage and network hardware. This hardware comes with binary drivers for the last 2 versions of RHEL and SLES distributions, and these drivers are already integrated into the February refreshes of these distributions. One of the storage vendors releases their driver in a .o + glue layer format, the others doesn't bother and only releases binaries for these two distributions. Two of the network card manufacturers release an update for their open source driver to minimally support the new cards, the others don't. Consumer hardware is largely unaffected; most consumer chipsets standardize on AHCI for SATA storage and keep the existing feature sets in networking chipsets. April 1st. 2 of the consumer chipset makers have upgraded their chipsets to include a new and exciting audio feature that enables enhanced DVD playback, but unfortunately this caused them to deviate from the 'standard' i810 audio hardware interface. One of them releases a binary driver for a handful of distributions, the other doesn't consider linux relevant for the desktop and hasn't bothered to do a linux driver yet. May 1st All of the server class hardware you can buy requires at least one but usually 2 or 3 binary modules to operate. While some of these modules are available in blob+glue form, several are only available for RHEL3, RHEL4 and SLES9 and sometimes the newly released SLES10. Linux users will have the choice of 4 kernels for these servers at this time, but no hope to run a kernel.org kernel on these servers. The Ubuntu people are very upset and are trying hard, with varying success, to get drivers available for their distribution. Due to this lobby success, about 50% of the servers can be used with the Ubuntu kernel as well. June 1st. A huge flamewar, the fourth on this topic since January, happens on the linux-kernel mailing list. Users and some developers are demanding that the kernel.org kernel adopts either the existing RHEL or the SLES module ABI. Investigation shows that this is not possible, and the thread turns into a discussion on designing a new ABI versus freezing the existing one. Many kernel developers feel that the existing ad-hoc ABI is not suitable for freezing and that a new ABI and API, designed such that it can be kept stable more easily is the way to go, while others say that this takes too much time and then won't help for the next 2 years until RHEL and SLES have adopted this ABI, and at least demand an immediate freeze of the kernel.org ABI so that the upcoming RHEL5 release maybe uses it, and thus gets drivers written for it. Users generally use RHEL or SLES for production servers, and clones like CENTOS which have released binary compatible kernels. July 1st. It's increasingly hard to run linux without binary modules on most new consumer PCs. While a year earlier people would have to give up 3D acceleration for this often, now even 2D doesn't work without binary drivers, nor does networking (both fixed wire or wireless) or sound. For half the machines there is not enough linux support available at all, while 20% use ndiswrapper like translation layers to run the Windows sound and networking drivers. The Debian project, unable to run on most machines now, is losing massive amounts of users to Ubuntu and Ubuntu-Debian hybrids. Debian-legal and various other project lists are impossible to read by people not interested in this particular flame-topic. Most of the vendors who kept their open source drivers at least somewhat updated have basically stopped doing so. July 14th. Linus declares the kernel ABI stable but also splits off a 2.7 kernel and declares that the 2.8 kernel will have a different ABI. In practice, only people who held on to their old machines can assist in the 2.7 development, since none of the vendor drivers, not even the ones who still have a blob+glue construct care about the 'too rapid' moving development tree. August 21st. A serious security flaw is found in the 2.6 series, which turns out to be a design flaw in a key sysfs API. Fixing this flaw would require to break the module ABI and practically all modules out there, while not fixing this flaw leaves a potential roothole open. A quick fix is made available under a CONFIG_ option, but users who need binary drivers have no choice but leave their systems vulnerable. Flamewars on lkml flare up again that say Linus made a mistake in freezing the existing ABI rather than creating a new one designed to be frozen. 2.7 development has mostly stagnated and a patch is proposed to have 2.7 have the 2.6 ABI again, reverting several key VM subsystem improvements and Ingo's realtime patches. August 26th. A precooked exploit for the security hole hits bugtraq, and has been sighted in the wild as used by various rootkits. A php exploit uses it to go from the httpd user to root. Users are putting pressure on module vendors to release modules for the new ABI, and several actually do so in the next three weeks. Others, mostly in the consumer area, say that the hardware in question is no longer sold and that they aren't going to spend any time or effort on drivers for it. Now this scenario may sound unlikely to you. And thankfully the main assumption (the December 6th event) is extremely unlikely. However, and this unfortunately, several of the other "leaps" aren't that unlikely. In fact, some of these results are likely to happen regardless; witness the flamewars on lkml about breaking module API/ABI. Witness the ndiswrapper effect of vendors now saying "we support linux because ndiswrapper can use our windows driver". I hope they won't happen. Some of that hope will be idle hope, but I believe that the advantages of freedom in the end are strong enough to overcome the counter forces. -------- regards j -- Jonas Helgi Palsson "Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO is the answer." -Erik Naggum -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Bryan J. Smith wrote:

-- Bryan

P.S. Rumor has it that AMD is going to buy ATI. I don't think people realize how _significant_ of a move that is. If AMD creates a direct system interconnect HTX GPU -- instead of the uber-proprietary hack of using a peripheral bus and with Intel IP to do all sorts of non-sense in software so it acts like its on the system interconnect -- then I think you'll see a 100% GPL driver for ATI HTX cards on AMD HTX systems. That's still in the future, but it could very well happen -- especially for chipset-integrated video (bringing commodity Xgl to the masses)!

It's a rumor. I heard that Intel would buy ATI (since they do a lot of business... and motherboards). AMD will never piss off their partners, or buy their partners. That would be a mistake bigger than OSX's Dashboard (they killed Konfabulator). Ask yourself why AMD don't make MOBOs or chipsets for them? -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Bryan J. Smith wrote:

On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 16:24 -0300, Alvaro Kuolas wrote:

...

AMD will never piss off their partners, or buy their partners. That would be a mistake bigger than OSX's Dashboard (they killed Konfabulator). Ask yourself why AMD don't make MOBOs or chipsets for them?

And I believe it would _not_ be in AMD's favor to buy ATI either. Unless AMD really believes that it can make HTX a GPU expansion standard and it will become widespread. In that case, the only way it will happen is if AMD buys a GPU vendor like ATI.

Why? HyperTransport it's not a "free standard" (like OpenGL). What is sopping AMD, nVidia or ATI tho make that HTX thing you said? They have the engineers, the technology, the money... maybe the lack of Intel's POWER. BTW: BTX it's not near... any soon, so Intel's POWER(TM by IBM) it's not so big. Thanks goes to Taiwan for that one. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 23:45 -0400, Bryan J. Smith wrote:

Correct. AMD has lots of R&D money to throw at ATI and nVidia. AMD does not. Hence why ATI and nVidia won't put the R&D towards development a HTX GPU.

Er, that should read ... "Correct. Intel has lots of R&D money to throw at ATI and nVidia. AMD does not ..." -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

At 10:20 PM 31/05/2006, Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 00:02, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

...

Now this idea of removing all this non-GPL stuff.... what was gained by that? And that is a Novell-only decision, right?

Actually it was the kernel devs that dictated it, they didn't ask it to be so they made it mandatory.

Then how in heck is Linux ever going to become a mainstream operating system when the kernel can't have proprietary code hung off of it and the vendors aren't that interested in developing proprietary code to begin with? Where do they think this is going to lead?

DLL's anyone?

I wonder if there could be a simple way of allowing linux to directly use DLL's and the information they contain?????? -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 20:59, Terry Eck wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

slamr wasn't GPL, and non-GPL kernel modules were removed for legal reasons

Is there somewhere on the Novell/SuSE site which covers the legal side of why some things are not being included in the latest version? AFAIK Nvidia modules are not GPL but are vital for 3D performance. I would like to understand why making it easier for users is a legal problem.

Thanks, Terry

I would agree with this..... I have *never* considered or had a reason to leave SuSE until now. I see no easy solution to the Thinkpad modem problem which worked fine on 9.3 and apparently on 10.0 but now doesn't work at all. I will remain with 9.3 until I find another distro. Sad but true.

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 21:48, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 03:10, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

I would agree with this..... I have *never* considered or had a reason to leave SuSE until now. I see no easy solution to the Thinkpad modem problem which worked fine on 9.3 and apparently on 10.0 but now doesn't work at all.

All linux distros have to face up to the GPL kernel module thing. Read the stories about kororaa

You are probably very right... All of this doesn't bode well for linux in general when even the most fanatical of users and being turned off by the problems. Hopefully linux doesn't die a slow death due to its success. I am reminded of the saying: "the operation was a success (removal of non-gpl code) but the patient died (linux)". Maybe a bit strong, but you heard it here first. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ + Bruce S. Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com Bellaire, MI 05/30/06 21:58 + +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "I think that God in creating man somewhat overestimated his ability." - Oscar Wilde

On 31/05/06 02:19, T. Ribbrock wrote:

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 10:01:40PM -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

Hopefully linux doesn't die a slow death due to its success. I am reminded of the saying: "the operation was a success (removal of non-gpl code) but the patient died (linux)".

My take is different: "...the patient *almost* died, but it was the only way to survive at all". In these days of suing the pants off anyone who even resembles coming close to some odd patent that is hiding somewhere, I think the only way to make Linux' survival safe is to avoid all that non-open crap. Does this mean you won't be burning any DVDs on that Linux system of yours?

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 02:50:50AM -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...

...

My take is different: "...the patient *almost* died, but it was the only way to survive at all". In these days of suing the pants off anyone who even resembles coming close to some odd patent that is hiding somewhere, I think the only way to make Linux' survival safe is to avoid all that non-open crap.

Does this mean you won't be burning any DVDs on that Linux system of yours?

Given that I have no DVD burner, that's an easy one... Are you telling me that *all* DVD burners need binary-only proprietary stuff (aka "blob") to work? A quick google doesn't seem to corroborate that (even Debian seems to support burning DVDs), but maybe you know something I don't? No, we can restrict the discussion just to pseudo-open source stuff like

On 31/05/06 06:13, T. Ribbrock wrote: libdvdcss which, last time I checked, is not available from any site in the USA because it's illegal there -- and it's probably illegal in more jurisdictions than just the USA.

At 08:55 AM 6/1/2006 +0100, Fergus Wilde wrote:

Content-Disposition: inline

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 22:04, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...

On 31/05/06 06:13, T. Ribbrock wrote:

...

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 02:50:50AM -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...

...

My take is different: "...the patient *almost* died, but it was the only way to survive at all". In these days of suing the pants off anyone who even resembles coming close to some odd patent that is hiding somewhere, I think the only way to make Linux' survival safe is to avoid all that non-open crap.

Does this mean you won't be burning any DVDs on that Linux system of yours?

Given that I have no DVD burner, that's an easy one... Are you telling me that *all* DVD burners need binary-only proprietary stuff (aka "blob") to work? A quick google doesn't seem to corroborate that (even Debian seems to support burning DVDs), but maybe you know something I don't?

No, we can restrict the discussion just to pseudo-open source stuff like libdvdcss which, last time I checked, is not available from any site in the USA because it's illegal there -- and it's probably illegal in more jurisdictions than just the USA.

Exactly. And that's your problem. Lawyers and (primarily though by no means exclusively) the US music and film industries in an unholy alliance with big computer corporations. Write to them, stop blaming the Linux developers for having to defend themselves from the anti-democratic intellectual property and software patent industry. It used to be there to protect writers and artists, but that has long since been replaced by protecting semi-monopoly revenue streams for profoundly unpleasant corporations. I would urge US readers to lobby their politicians.

-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB

/snip/ If you follow US news at all (many foreigners do, to their credit) you are aware that the politicions who make up the present administration are pretty much in the pockets of the semi-monopoly corporations, like, for example, Disney, and most of the record companies and Big Hollywood. --doug -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.0/353 - Release Date: 5/31/2006 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 15:13 -0400, John E. Perry wrote:

Doug McGarrett wrote: ...

...

/snip/ If you follow US news at all (many foreigners do, to their credit) you are aware that the politicions who make up the present administration are pretty much in the pockets of the semi-monopoly corporations, like, for example, Disney, and most of the record companies and Big Hollywood.

Well, actually, the infamous DMCA was sponsored and pushed through by a Democrat. Most of the present Congress has become pet doggies of the Big Media. Those who aren't are pets of Big Business.

Until the American people get a backbone and demand that the politicians -not- accept so much as a pencil from anyone we will have problems. The politicians can call it anything they want but a bribe is still a bribe. Enough of this OT thread. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Doug McGarrett wrote:

If you follow US news at all (many foreigners do, to their credit) you are aware that the politicions who make up the present administration are pretty much in the pockets of the semi-monopoly corporations, like, for example, Disney, and most of the record companies and Big Hollywood.

On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 07:46 -0400, Mike McMullin wrote:

Just 2 comments first American politics is not the subject of this list, second the last three administrations in Washington can quite correctly be accused of the above.

Please, please! Geez, feed the trolls why don't you? Understand the US TV media represents what about _only_ 20% of Americans think. That's because the US TV media caters to Americans who watch more than 8 hours of TV a day -- which is what advertisers have been increasingly going after. The US TV media gets less and less viewership by the day, so it is catering more and more to those who do not work and watch TV all day -- because that's what advertisers pay for. 80% of Americans turn off a _majority_ of its own TV media these days. Understand that, and please do _not_ watch our network TV media! If I was a foreign national and watched the US TV media, I would have a _very_warped_ sense of what the "average American" is! US TV media is actually getting worse by the day, largely because they (and they _admit_ this) they are "dumbing it down" for its increasing viewership and its lack of intelligence. PBS (our partially-publicly funded news -- loosely like the BBC) just did an extended segment this past week on what American network TV news programs are doing with their formats -- because the viewership has changed. Those 20% of Americans want a "friend," they don't want facts -- and they have had to cater to the lower intelligence of the viewership these days. With that said ... (and yes, now I'm going to troll) .. As far the indirect suggestions that we are an evil, greedy, capitialistic pig of a country and people -- we heard it back in the early 19th and 20th centuries too. Like it or not, with the death of the Soviet Union, the US still has its policy -- just like it did with Teddy, just like with Monroe -- in the centuries before. And yes, it pissed off many nations then too. So this isn't anything new -- we're evil, greedy and capitalistic pigs who drain the world. Frankly, and many of my colleagues agree with me, we _stopped_ listening to the "demonizations" of Americans after the tsunami a few years back. While everyone was pledging funds in a set of massive PR stints -- we were actually there, delivering tens of millions of dollars in food, supplies, etc... (and I believe only the Australians-New Zealand military joined us later). And while almost everyone has _forgotten_ about the tsunami (let alone _defaulted_ on many of those pledges), the US Department of Defense (DoD) is spending _hundreds_ of _millions of dollars implementing a 2 million node "tsunami warning net." People never look at the US DoD budget to see where the money is actually spent. It's not all men and machines -- in fact, a _majority_ is for _peaceful_ purposes. People envy the US for its wealthy and prosperity. A lot of that comes from its capitalism and lack of over-taxation. Let alone the massive diversity we have of all people, from all nations. As I always say, "We are full of the crap from all other countries." We don't always know what works, but we know what doesn't. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Saturday 03 June 2006 13:36, Bryan J. Smith wrote: Large pruning .

...

People envy the US for its wealthy and prosperity.

Are you sure of that ..? i see a country full of conmen _vampires_ and general nogood busy bodys too ready to try and say we rule the world which by hte way you do NOT ..

Yeah, it's a real pain in the butt when we have to work late, we always have to keep a stock of wooden stakes for the drive home after dark... -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 14:43 +0100, Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Saturday 03 June 2006 13:36, Bryan J. Smith wrote: Large pruning .

...

People envy the US for its wealthy and prosperity.

Are you sure of that ..? i see a country full of conmen vampires and general nogood busy bodys too ready to try and say we rule the world which by hte way you do NOT ..

Pete .

End of Politics.

-- The Labour party has changed their emblem from a rose to a condom as it more accurately reflects the government's political stance.

A condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of pricks, and gives you a sense of security while you are actually being fucked.

from GSM

The US is both envied and loathed for its successes. Its failures are an embarrassment to its allies and food to its enemies. The US has no monopoly on con-men, vampires, or interfering busybodies who demand the world conforms to their own vision of paradise. The American ones just have better PR agents. Freedom of speech allows the free world to criticise its own errors and question its own motives. Good news is no news. Andy Goss -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Saturday 03 June 2006 13:36, Bryan J. Smith wrote:

People envy the US for its wealthy and prosperity.

How deluded you truly are, mostly the rest of world are rather bemused why so many Americans keep buying in to this "we are number one!" crap. It's rather an anomaly that the U.S. has had the strongest economy for the last century. Throughout history the largest economy, and by implication, wealthiest nation was China. If current economic figures are accurate China will overtake the U.S. and reclaim it's position as the worlds largest economy sometime around 2010-2015, if not sooner. I'm sure you can figure out the implications for the U.S. , the rest of the world sure has ;) This is not a "bash America" rant, I'm just merely pointing out that it's a common misconception by many Americans that the world envies them. We really don't. And if you *still* truly believe the rest of the world is envious of the U.S. have a look at these figures and then ask yourself why would any other nation or people be envious... the full article is here: http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp And the author sums up the state of affairs rather neatly at the bottom "No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close. The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion. " * The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004). * The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). * Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005). * "The International Adult Literacy Survey...found that Americans with less than nine years of education 'score worse than virtually all of the other countries'" (Jeremy Rifkin's superbly documented book The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future Is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream, p.78). * Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere! * "The European Union leads the U.S. in...the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70). * "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70). * Nevertheless, Congress cut funds to the National Science Foundation. The agency will issue 1,000 fewer research grants this year (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004). * Foreign applications to U.S. grad schools declined 28 percent last year. Foreign student enrollment on all levels fell for the first time in three decades, but increased greatly in Europe and China. Last year Chinese grad-school graduates in the U.S. dropped 56 percent, Indians 51 percent, South Koreans 28 percent (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004). We're not the place to be anymore. * The World Health Organization "ranked the countries of the world in terms of overall health performance, and the U.S. [was]...37th." In the fairness of health care, we're 54th. "The irony is that the United States spends more per capita for health care than any other nation in the world" (The European Dream, pp.79-80). Pay more, get lots, lots less. * "The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens" (The European Dream, p.80). Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a "developed" country? Anyway, that's the company we're keeping. * Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.) (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005.) * "U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look "developed" to you? Yet it's the only "developed" country to score lower in childhood poverty. * Twelve million American families--more than 10 percent of all U.S. households--"continue to struggle, and not always successfully, to feed themselves." Families that "had members who actually went hungry at some point last year" numbered 3.9 million (NYT, Nov. 22, 2004). Advertisement * The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005). * Women are 70 percent more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005). * The leading cause of death of pregnant women in this country is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004). * "Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its workforce in the 1980s.... In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1 percent" (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time. * "Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies" (The European Dream, p.66). "In a recent survey of the world's 50 best companies, conducted by Global Finance, all but one were European" (The European Dream, p.69). * "Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European.... In the chemical industry, the European company BASF is the world's leader, and three of the top six players are European. In engineering and construction, three of the top five companies are European.... The two others are Japanese. Not a single American engineering and construction company is included among the world's top nine competitors. In food and consumer products, Nestlé and Unilever, two European giants, rank first and second, respectively, in the world. In the food and drugstore retail trade, two European companies...are first and second, and European companies make up five of the top ten. Only four U.S. companies are on the list" (The European Dream, p.68). * The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005). * U.S. employers eliminated 1 million jobs in 2004 (The Week, Jan. 14, 2005). * Three million six hundred thousand Americans ran out of unemployment insurance last year; 1.8 million--one in five--unemployed workers are jobless for more than six months (NYT, Jan. 9, 2005). * Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40 percent of our government debt. (That's why we talk nice to them.) "By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom" (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture. * Sometime in the next 10 years Brazil will probably pass the U.S. as the world's largest agricultural producer. Brazil is now the world's largest exporter of chickens, orange juice, sugar, coffee, and tobacco. Last year, Brazil passed the U.S. as the world's largest beef producer. (Hear that, you poor deluded cowboys?) As a result, while we bear record trade deficits, Brazil boasts a $30 billion trade surplus (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). * As of last June, the U.S. imported more food than it exported (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). * Bush: 62,027,582 votes. Kerry: 59,026,003 votes. Number of eligible voters who didn't show up: 79,279,000 (NYT, Dec. 26, 2004). That's more than a third. Way more. If more than a third of Iraqis don't show for their election, no country in the world will think that election legitimate. * One-third of all U.S. children are born out of wedlock. One-half of all U.S. children will live in a one-parent house (CNN, Dec. 10, 2004). * "Americans are now spending more money on gambling than on movies, videos, DVDs, music, and books combined" (The European Dream, p.28). * "Nearly one out of four Americans [believe] that using violence to get what they want is acceptable" (The European Dream, p.32). * Forty-three percent of Americans think torture is sometimes justified, according to a PEW Poll (Associated Press, Aug. 19, 2004). * "Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004). * "The International Association of Chiefs of Police said that cuts by the [Bush] administration in federal aid to local police agencies have left the nation more vulnerable than ever" (USA Today, Nov. 17, 2004). -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 10:12 -0700, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

Why not discuss how Linux and SuSE are "Number One"?!

Here's my last "gas can" on the fire ... Once SuSE was bought out by an American company, Novell, we have seen more GPL and more open source donations than in the entire SuSE history before. I have been extremely pleased by the changes Novell has made, because they have benefited the community. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

I have tried very hard to stay off this thread, and I even agree with some other things you say, but this one: On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 08:36:28 AM -0400, Bryan J. Smith (b.j.smith@ieee.org) wrote:

People envy the US for its wealthy and prosperity.

really made me laugh. Of course there are several things I'd like Italy (or Europe) to copy from USA, but certainly not their "wealth and prosperity". The sooner USA citizens get rid of *this* specific illusion, the better. For their own stress levels, that is, not that we really care. Ciao, Marco -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Fedora Core 5 for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ "[For humans] multitasking is, in most cases, counterproductive" D. Russel, Research Senior Manager, IBM -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 12:44:52 PM -0400, Bryan J. Smith (b.j.smith@ieee.org) wrote:

On Sat, 2006-06-03 at 18:06 +0200, M. Fioretti wrote:

...

really made me laugh. Of course there are several things I'd like Italy (or Europe) to copy from USA, but certainly not their "wealth and prosperity".

I don't think people realize what I meant.

Bryan, thanks (and I mean it) for taking the time to explain again your point of view. However, I had already said that I agree with several of your statements, including those in your last reply. I only quoted that sentence because it's (more or less) the only one of your original post which I *still* find terribly funny and untrue (*regardless* of how much you actually meant it, or how many USA citizens actually think that way). Really. "Wealth and prosperity" means very different things in different cultures. Rest assured that what most others envy about USA is _not_ what passes for "wealth and prosperity" among most USA _citizens_ (not media). If you still need convincing, have you noticed that another subscriber reacted to the same sentence, and to that only, with very similar arguments? That's all I found necessary to remark, and I stand by what I said. If you want to continue this discussion privately, that's OK with me, since I wasn't trolling. Let's just take this terribly off topic thread off list. Ciao, Marco -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Fedora Core 5 for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ Go ahead, capitalize the T on technology, deify it if it will make you feel less responsible -- but it puts you in with the neutered, brother, in with the eunuchs keeping the harem of our stolen Earth for the numb and joyless hardons of human sultans, human elite with no right at all to be where they are -- T. Pynchon, _Gravity's Rainbow_ -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 05/06/06, Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> wrote:

On Saturday 03 June 2006 12:06 pm, M. Fioretti wrote:

...

I have tried very hard to stay off this thread, and I even agree with some other things you say, but this one:

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 08:36:28 AM -0400, Bryan J. Smith

(b.j.smith@ieee.org) wrote:

...

People envy the US for its wealthy and prosperity.

really made me laugh. Of course there are several things I'd like Italy (or Europe) to copy from USA, but certainly not their "wealth and prosperity".

The sooner USA citizens get rid of *this* specific illusion, the better. For their own stress levels, that is, not that we really care.

I have friends all over the world. There ISN'T one country that hasn't a parcel full of bad things about it. So can we now get back to Linux?

Fred

Here, here. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 04:19, T. Ribbrock wrote:

...

Hopefully linux doesn't die a slow death due to its success.   I am reminded of the saying:  "the operation was a success (removal of non-gpl code) but the patient died (linux)".

My take is different: "...the patient *almost* died, but it was the only way to survive at all". In these days of suing the pants off anyone who even resembles coming close to some odd patent that is hiding somewhere, I think the only way to make Linux' survival safe is to avoid all that non-open crap.

All well and good... take the high road. But tell me where the hardware support is going to come from?? Even OS/2 had a hard time with getting devices supported in its day and it had the weight of IBM behind it and they did a lot of the work. I really think this removal of non-GPL stuff and the idea that nothing is going to taint the kernel is going to be the beginning of a downslide for linux. Do they expect vendors to open all their code and give away their proprietary specs just to keep the kernel developers happy? If they aren't even writing device support now, why would they want to start with those rules in place?

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 02:59, Terry Eck wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

slamr wasn't GPL, and non-GPL kernel modules were removed for legal reasons

Is there somewhere on the Novell/SuSE site which covers the legal side of why some things are not being included in the latest version? AFAIK Nvidia modules are not GPL but are vital for 3D performance. I would like to understand why making it easier for users is a legal problem.

It's a licensing thing. I don't know about a specific page, but it has to do with the GPL, and linking to non-GPL things. It's always been an issue, and the nvidia driver has never been directly shipped with the distribution. As for making it easier, you might want to read up on the "partner driver program" that's currently being launched. You will soon be able to add an installation source from nvidia or ati and install the driver directly from them. This is what will replace the hackish "run an online update to download the driver", which really broke as soon as nvidia released a new version of their driver, because the patch script you downloaded only retrieved the version which was current at the time of release. In this new scheme, you should get the latest driver always

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 11:51:12AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Wednesday 2006-05-31 at 03:46 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

them. This is what will replace the hackish "run an online update to download the driver", which really broke as soon as nvidia released a new version of their driver, because the patch script you downloaded only retrieved the version which was current at the time of release.

That was intentional.

If you install any other version of the driver, as soon as YOU installs a kernel update, your video fails after reboot, forcing people to drop to runlevel 3 and reinstall the driver - if they know how.

Keeping to one version of the driver only, the kernel had the kernel part of the driver compiled, and video worked after kernel updates seamlessly.

Actually the downloadable version was not doing this, you needed to run it only once. We had a small kernel module wrapper for Nvidia already to cope with that. Ciao, Marcus

I was thinking if I should write this mail or not but the dev guys who have spent loads of hours getting this release into place also need feedback on the bad issues to make 10.2 into the quality release we have been spoiled with in the past. I have been a SuSE fan since 8.2...well not for to long but for a couple of years now...I have only been running Linux since SuSE 9.0 (with KDE)...later I installed Ubuntu Warty on Laptop to see what the fuzz was about....I liked it but it was nothing like SuSE....but I decided to keep it so I had a KDE and a GNOME distribution... My home Desktop had stayed at 9.3 but it's best before date has expirered since too long...so I decided to uppgrade to 10.1, well the first problem was the Atheros driver and I did know about it before I began the update...I did file a bug report on it to give the devs my view on the sitatuation and the gave me the same answer as everyone else... I didn't expect anything else...but removing the Atheros drivers with that explanation about "some kernel devs yadda yadda yadda"....well in the end it is about us users and the choice we have...to cripple device support or whatever reason is a bad move for SuSE...sure I did compile the madwifi driver myself but all people can't do that. My choice at that time was, I like SuSE I'm pissed but nevermind I just want a working systen....and I allways do updates on wire in case of trouble.... I tried to update my system and it failed misserabely....I just gave up in the end and tried to do a over network install and i just didn't work...it jst hang and hang and hang....So I downloaded all ISO's and made a DVD...and installed...it worked....I added the packman and suser-guru archives and tried to installed the needed stuff over the wire an it failed....YAST hang again...and again....and again...finally I downloaded everything to my HDD and did a local install of the needed packages...it worked after a while... Most of the things did work after that but I had spent somewhere between 5-7 evenings and a weekend and had a pissed wife... It didn't take me long to be annoyed that everytime i started the machine I couldn't start Cedega/WoW directly because I had to wait for some job which drained all CPU for a few minutes....the same thing happend att 22.30 every evening...I later moved the evening one.... Install of software was horribly slow and well everthing about the updates... Well with a problems an being pissed of about the Atheros drivers I made a choice to install Ubuntu 6.0.6 Flight (some of the latest) on the desktop and I was up and running with everything in about 5 hours, they have pulled of a really nice release. Well problems didn't stop there, my Wife wanted me to print some Photos on the new HP printer she made me buy for printing photos....whats wrong with black/white laser by the way^^...I never got it to work and I had to get my work laptop and boot into our corporate WinXP desktop and print the photos...scanning and printing regular documents on Linux was no problem... at this point I was just pissed on everything....and decided that I need to be a user and have an easy life......going back to Windows XP was no option, since it is a story of never ending problems and weired things happends all the time...With a Linux machine configuration can be a pain sometimes but when it works it works....usually....So I thought, how about a Mac? They are using Intel processors now, the run on a BSD UNIX and they finally have a two button mouse ;) I called Applestore and explained who I was and what I needed and I had thought about a Mac Mini with 2GB Ram for home use..I had a new 20" Flatscreen monitor so I didn't want a iMac...I was connected to a PreSales guy since she Wasn't sure about WoW on the mini and we agreed that I could give it a try...so I ordered...two days ago I officially became a switcher and I am so happy, i was up and running after 30 minutes without any Mac knowledge....I just works....??? There must be a catch somewhere??? Computers shouldn't just work....and about WoW...well a little bit slow but it works.... So the moral of the story is: OpenSuSE have a choice to include or not to include "binary only modules" like the Atheros one...and I as a user has a choice to agree or disagree, and I did disagree...there are several other Linux Desktop dists out there which also are good and now they are better than OpenSuSE...ok my choice was even more radical than changing dist but.... ...and I don't seem to be the only one pissed of about this.... Don't release unfinished software, the new software distribution system aren't even alfa-software...Installtion of software and updates are a fundamental part of an operating system, it must work....and if it fails....talk to us write about it on the Opensuse web...send emails to this list just don't be silent...ok there has been some mails now... OpenSuSE 10.1 should have been delayed due to this....yes we ofcourse has been angry about that also but...in the end that had been a better choice... I still have 10.0 on my work Laptop and I hope that I will have the opportunity to upgrade that later to a fully functional OpenSuSE 10.2,3,5? which once again spoils us and gives us the quality we are used to....but that Laptop has a Atheros card to so.... Well it don't expect you all to agree but this is how I felt.... Best Regards Patrik "Proud new owner of a Mac Mini Core Due with 2GB Ram, Mighty Mouse and an 4GB iPod Nano" Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Saturday 03 June 2006 11:04 am, jfweber@gilweber.com wrote:

...

into electronic streams flowing thru the cosmos On Tuesday 30 May 2006

5:58 pm, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

I have an IBM Thinkpad X30 with a SmartLink winmodem inside of it. This has always been supported by SuSE. The previous release I was running was 9.3.

10.1 has a lot of SmartLink stuff on the DVD (retail) but only for a USB SmartLink modem. I've just spent about 3 hours trying to figure out why there is no 'slamr' module provided but I can't find one.

New releases are supposed to get easier to install. Not 10.1

So, does that mean that 10.1 base and, gui and, desktop product etc didn't install, or that your winmodem hardware support may be phasing out ? Other than this driver, did anything else fail to install ?

Oh my.... your question comes just at the right time. I've been running with 10.1 for a week now.... fighting problems all the way, and I've just now finally given up spending any more time on it. I am back on 10.0 and I was about to write the final chapter on my throes with 10.1.

One of the major problems I have had is with video support. (which works fine in 10.0 BTW) I have a 20 inch Viewsonic VP201B LCD monitor running on an ATI card with a DVI cable. I don't think there is anything too strange about that setup. As I say, it worked fine on 10.0 and if I recall, it also worked on 9.3.

On install of 10.1, I was unable to get any resolution to work, other than 1280x1024 when the monitor wants to run in 1600 mode. At 1280 it looks really crappy and it is slow. I spent 3 days trying to get to 1600 mode and every test I ran (using Sax2 or ginned up Xorg.con files) the entire system would hang and it was hard reset time.

After three days of trying to get it to work, I saw that ATI had updated their drivers and decided (even though there were dependency problems) that I had nothing to lose by trying them. I soon realized that the ATI install wanted to start from an xorg.conf that was already set to 1600 but I didn't have one. I had to run Sax2 in low res mode on a 1280 screen in order to create the proper settings. Finally I got the ATI drivers to work - most of the time.

The reason I am finally quitting on 10.1 is that whenever I reboot, I usually have to boot to init 3 and erase .Xauthority and .ICEauthority and a few other pieces of the graphics world. If I don't, I get the hard reset hang again. Today, even that approach doesn't work. End of the road.

Also along the way have been problems:

1) Missing SLAMR module for a winmodem in my laptop. (2 days of effort to solve that one)

2) Opera under 10.1 now segfaults no matter what version you attempt to run (problem with QT? Don't think so because even the static version won't run)

3) Too many YAST and other utility tool problems to mention.

4) Sound works but sounds pretty rough.

Other minor annoyances.....

I think 10.1 had too many changes (software update mgmt, removal of non-gpl modules, and install tools) that it had a problem for almost everyone....

Feels good to be back on 10.0. I'm not one to give up on problems, but I know when I'm wasting my time and after 9 days of effort, I've wasted enough.

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