On Wednesday 06 December 2006 00:20, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

Sorry, but that is true for the advanced tech geek that will anyhow find it's infos in the web. Just about 3 month ago, my sister converted from Win to Linux (ok: I persuaded her). She did the installation by HER SELF, following the manual. Of course, afterwards there were some questions coming.. but the manual that she had in front of her did a great job and there was nothing to wonder about.

But, again, Dominique, she probably only needed a Getting Started manual, how to install, how to connect to the net, etc. Thirty pages max, with the first 10 just covering getting installed. The effort of Suse is wasted if it is plowed into chopping down trees to mail them around the world in the form of cellulose bricks, which are read once (if at all) and tossed. Put that same material on the web (ok use a wiki if you must), and it can be kept up to date by the community. Maybe have a copy of all of this on the DVD or a separate CDrom for people who don't want to (or can not) get at the web pages. For the rest of us, a big fat icon on the desktop is all we need. Then all you need to do is give people enough of a paper manual to get the thing installed. -- ____________________________________ John Andersen

On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 10:40 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

Yes. I suspect 80%-90% of the SUSE box manuals never were opened and just discard or burned, which is pretty much a waste.

I wonder... I think people do look. If they find something that they think they need to know is something else. Perhaps it is that mostly men buy Linux? And, us men are notorious for skipping manuals at all cost. But we like for them to be present. So we can boast that we got it working without the manuals. Their non-use is a critical part of the process. They must be present, if not actually used. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems AB Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Tel: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Fax: Int +46 8-31 42 23 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 01:09:55AM -0900, John Andersen wrote:

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 00:55, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

I think people do look. If they find something that they think they need to know is something else. Perhaps it is that mostly men buy Linux?

I read mine while waiting for the install to finish, and anytime I can't get something to work right away.

The most I ever paid for Linux was for SLES 9, and the manual was all in PDFs. Believe me, SLES is one place you WANT to read the manual. Its different enough from regular Suse that you will hork it up if you wing it.

Yeah, I expected the full set of books with SLES ... and was disappointed too. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 04:55, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 10:40 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

Yes. I suspect 80%-90% of the SUSE box manuals never were opened and just discard or burned, which is pretty much a waste.

I wonder... I think people do look. If they find something that they think they need to know is something else. Perhaps it is that mostly men buy Linux? And, us men are notorious for skipping manuals at all cost. But we like for them to be present. So we can boast that we got it working without the manuals. Their non-use is a critical part of the process. They must be present, if not actually used.

Here, the last Admin book included in the box looks like a dog chewed it. I've almost never opened any User manual which is still being included in the box. Chances are, when you need help the most is when you're trying to figure out why something is not working -- like internet connectivity, or why the system doesn't recognize the DVD. It's very tough to google linux issues when there's no internet available. And it's tough to read a manual on the disc when the drive isn't recognized. Both have happened here. Fortunately, I now have the luxury of multiple computers, so I can usually get information via another method. I'd still like to see the Admin guide printed. In exchange the User Guide could be reduced to a pamphlet, ("SUSE Startup For Dummies"), or as a big fold-out poster like the ones Dell includes with their hardware. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 01:09:55AM -0900, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 00:55, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

I think people do look. If they find something that they think they need to know is something else. Perhaps it is that mostly men buy Linux?

I read mine while waiting for the install to finish, and anytime I can't get something to work right away.

The most I ever paid for Linux was for SLES 9, and the manual was all in PDFs. Believe me, SLES is one place you WANT to read the manual. Its different enough from regular Suse that you will hork it up if you wing it.

Yeah, I expected the full set of books with SLES ... and was disappointed too.

Ciao, Marcus

Perhaps something along the lines of what came with VAX/VMS, 20 odd thick binders, enough to fill a couple of shelves? ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 15:14, James Knott wrote:

Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

Sorry, but that is true for the advanced tech geek that will anyhow find it's infos in the web. Just about 3 month ago, my sister converted from Win to Linux (ok: I persuaded her). She did the installation by HER SELF, following the manual. Of course, afterwards there were some questions coming.. but the manual that she had in front of her did a great job and there was nothing to wonder about. I for myself have never read it (shame on me) but obviously, people that DO read it, understand it and can use it. so don't take this tool away

Dominique

Real Geeks are not allowed to read the manual. ;-)

When I first looked into Linux I found the likes of Debian n Co impenetrable for a lowly Windows 95 user. One of the things that really impressed me about SuSE was the documentation, they seemed to be actually interested in Linux being easy to use rather than the exclusive tool of nerds. I thought the books provided with it were very well written and explained a lot. Especially as it was in the days of dial up and online knowledge wasn't as easy to come by. These days I only really scan them as I can do with out but recently I've had 3 people I know who've only ever used Windows want to try Linux and to me openSUSE is the logical choice because of those manuals (and YaST is teh awesome). Anyone know when the boxed version of 10.2 is due out, not seen any dates suggested? Matthew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2006-12-06 at 10:40 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

Yes. I suspect 80%-90% of the SUSE box manuals never were opened and just discard or burned, which is pretty much a waste.

I keep all of mine - I do read them and point (RTFM) people to them ;-) In fact, I no longer buy the DVD because the paper admin book is no longer included: ie, just for that single reason. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFdu9KtTMYHG2NR9URAo6CAKCB+y5JTknU4SBKjXmuANhTP4iigQCgg/ig ZPl9kbW+6/Z1e9jwluAjyH8= =q6SN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I also miss getting the SuSE lapel pins, T-shirts, and stickers. my T-shirt is getting pretty worn out and want an new sticker for my work computer BoB C

The Wednesday 2006-12-06 at 10:14 -0500, James Knott wrote:

...

Real Geeks are not allowed to read the manual. ;-)

No, we just hide. We read them in bed or in the throne, when we can't use the computer and nobody sees us ;-)

-- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

D Gavrilovic wrote:

However, re: the user manual. It's not much use to experienced Linux users. But...

Whenever I finally do manage to convince a Windows user/business to move to SUSE, the first thing they ask is, "Can we get a manual? We need to learn how to use this.".

So manuals are quite important in the conversion/migrations process. People do like to look at books. And some of these people are not "geeks".

Maybe its worthwile for Novell/Suse to set up a "Print on Demand" service? I'm sure a lot of customers would be willing to pay extra for the clothbound admin manual. Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 09:39, jdd wrote:

Randall R Schulz a écrit :

...

Basically, a PDF suitable for bound printing is not one you'd use for on-line viewing or for small-scale, non-bound printing on laser printers at home or in the typical office.

yes, but no :-)

yes - certainly, if you manage to work with a Local print store, they will ask you more than usual pdf.

no - for the king of use I mean of, nobody asks you anything. usually you have neither any people to help you, only a seat and a windows computer. chance if you get a R°V° printer :-).

I have no idea what a "R°V° printer" is. I have worked in PostScript and PDF-driven phototypesetting software in the past, but it's been about 10 years and I'm sure things have changed significantly since then.

So future shops will deal with simple pdf and hopefull new xml standard documents

Yes. We can agree that the future will be different than the present. We can probably also agree that had the past been different than it was, the present would be different than it is. But... So what? I think sufficiently widespread adoption of the still very young Open Document standard is far enough off that support from consumer printing services such as FedEx/Kinko's is not something we could base current plans upon.

the result is far from the high standard SuSE was giving, but much better than the injet printer one (and much more affordable, injet printing is extremely expensive)

Ink-jet printing is just plain stupid. I suppose for the occasional color page when the volume would not justify a color laser printer, it might conceivably possibly make sense, but basically, it's a horrible, horrible technology with poor output quality and grossly expensive consumables.

...

available, but it would need to be done to enable end-user printing of bound manuals at local, low-volume print shops (e.g., FedEx / Kinko's in the States).

may somebody in the states could contact such inline book printing shop to ask what they could do for such work (we could probably through a LUG order some hundred copies) - given Novall gives us the right to do so (questionable - no problem for individuals, but for non profit small print?)

For North Americans (US only?), this is probably a good option: http://www.fedex.com/us/officeprint/main/. It appears they have software, sadly for Windows only, that prepares documents for submission to their local printing services. I suspect that we'd have to meet them more than half way, either by using that Windows software or by somehow producing suitable PDF files for them. I have a little experience with Kinko's. They were able to take a PDF page with my business cards, replicated and with cut marks and no gutters, and turn them into business cards (my first pass had gutters, but they said it would be easier without them, so I changed the PDF accordingly). So I think they have some flexibility. It may also depend on how knowledgeable and service-oriented the staff is at a particular store whether they can handle a given PDF file for bound printing.

jdd

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed December 6 2006 4:35 am, John Andersen skratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 00:20, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

Sorry, but that is true for the advanced tech geek that will anyhow find it's infos in the web. Just about 3 month ago, my sister converted from Win to Linux (ok: I persuaded her). She did the installation by HER SELF, following the manual. Of course, afterwards there were some questions coming.. but the manual that she had in front of her did a great job and there was nothing to wonder about.

But, again, Dominique, she probably only needed a Getting Started manual, how to install, how to connect to the net, etc. Thirty pages max, with the first 10 just covering getting installed.

The effort of Suse is wasted if it is plowed into chopping down trees to mail them around the world in the form of cellulose bricks, which are read once (if at all) and tossed.

Put that same material on the web (ok use a wiki if you must), and it can be kept up to date by the community. Maybe have a copy of all of this on the DVD or a separate CDrom for people who don't want to (or can not) get at the web pages. For the rest of us, a big fat icon on the desktop is all we need.

Then all you need to do is give people enough of a paper manual to get the thing installed. I guess you haven't ever had something nasty happen where you *can't* get to the web, but must do for XYZ emergency reason? We have had the telcos out for a month or more ( computer works, no net cuz, well , no dsl or modem or ???? ) Even a nice large sized genny won't help if there is no net access in an emergency.

IF you *NEED* the info, you usually need it asap. Most of us don't devour manuals as reading material. Tho I have on occasion, I don't usually have time, and do have a reading list that is pretty heavy anyway. But when you need to get under the hood, and can't get email or get to the web in any fashion you do *need* that heavy brick of a book that was a pleasure to read. There once was a not too involved getting started book and what was called The Administrator's Handbook.. tho you would have needed large hands to hold it long ! Nicely indexed as well, w/ some linux basics for those of us starting out. Mainly concerning the "linux way " of doing things, and it's how many of us learned not to be insulting, let alone insulted by things said on this list. No real place for that info any more I guess . World is much to P.C. Nevermind.. I can't wait to get a shipped version. This dled version will be good enough to be going on w/ til then . I'm sure we will hear lots of install stories between this day and when boxes start arriving on doorsteps. One can almost wax nostalgic about the days we all raced to be the first to install and post reports.. there were often reports of " My box set was just delivered, will report tomorrow on how it went" etc. ;) -- j like the gecko behind the painting w/ hidden wisdom to impart. In a world that needs more dancing, she's a hula girl at heart. Photographs show she is lovely. Her bare feet are a work of art. her fragrance speaks of frangipani and, she's still a hula girl at heart. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz a écrit :

I have no idea what a "R°V° printer" is.

Recto Verso, double sided printing

Ink-jet printing is just plain stupid. I suppose for the occasional color page when the volume would not justify a color laser printer, it might conceivably possibly make sense, but basically, it's a horrible, horrible technology with poor output quality

this is wrong. inkjet and similar have a very good quality (photo printing, for example), and grossly expensive

consumables.

this is alas very true. printers are for free or nearly, but ink cartrige are very expensive by the way, laser printer affordable by an individual are not so cheap (as a per page price). What I do personnally is to buy second hand laser printers (now I have a hp laserjet 5, pay $30!!) but not anybody know how to find this :-( and it's not double sided printing (not mine) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2006-12-06 at 20:34 +0100, jdd wrote:

and it's not double sided printing (not mine)

My inkjet is neither, but I do manage to print double sided ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFdyH6tTMYHG2NR9URAiaYAJ9S1txoXCWA5wgPP+g2XvvDeTE0QQCglVrP D4xLswa6csBJIG7hZBfrX/c= =fBCh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 07:07, D Gavrilovic wrote:

Whenever I finally do manage to convince a Windows user/business to move to SUSE, the first thing they ask is, "Can we get a manual? We need to learn how to use this.".

Really? I never had anyone ask that, and I've been waiting with a ready answer..... See that little Help icon in the task bar? and Where is your Windows manual? ;-) -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 06:29, Randall R Schulz wrote:

In order to make that feasible, one thing that will have to happen is to supply PDFs with suitable Open Prepress attachments and impositions and maybe cut marks and whatnot.

Do those pdfs differ substantially from others? Because I've seen what Kinkos can do with your run of the mill company report delivered on a thumb drive 20 minutes before the presentation. They looked great. They told me I could email it, upload http://www.fedex.com/us/officeprint/onlineprint/index.html -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On 12/7/06, John Andersen wrote:

Really? I never had anyone ask that, and I've been waiting with a ready answer..... See that little Help icon in the task bar?

gcc has good man pages. But I still go out and get the o'reilly books. some reasons: you can read them while you are crammed upright in a subway. you can read them on the loo. e.t.c.. :-) -- "Develop success from failures. Discouragement and failure are two of the surest stepping stones to success." - Dale Carnegie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* James Knott [12-07-06 07:41]:

Windows manuals are good for placing under a table leg, to keep the table from rocking. ;-)

Must be the only thing they are good for. I put several out back in the three-holer seven or eight years ago and they are still there :^). -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 20:38 -0900, John Andersen wrote:

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 08:55, Jos van Kan wrote:

...

Maybe its worthwile for Novell/Suse to set up a "Print on Demand" service? I'm sure a lot of customers would be willing to pay extra for the clothbound admin manual.

This is a very good idea, and Kinkos (usa) and Mail Boxes Etc (aka UPS store) would take that business in a heart beat. Sign up on line, pay as you pick

An international solution would be great. We have Mail Boxes etc in Stockholm. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems AB Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Tel: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Fax: Int +46 8-31 42 23 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 12:37 -0500, Robert Cunningham wrote:

...

I also miss getting the SuSE lapel pins, T-shirts, and stickers. my T-shirt is getting pretty worn out and want an new sticker for my work computer

I really think the stickers would be great. I always take the MS stickers off computers we use. It would be nice to replace them with a SUSE/Linux tag that stays on. Don't underestimate subtle advertising.

That is what I think I miss the most. I really prefered the Admin Manual, but having it on the DVD is OK, but I really want the stickers back. -- Boyd Gerber ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12/7/06, Lake-Wind wrote:

I feel that Novell should publish the manual and sell it separately, as previously suggested (on demand publishing). I would ALWAYS buy the admin manual from them. As it stands now, I just wait and buy books as they are published, like the SUSE 10 Bible which I recently bought at a local bookstore. It's not as good as the admin manual was but it helps fill the void.

Well, there is always Novell Press and they do publish SLES stuff. I think the Firewalls one is the one that used to be published by New Riders. I may be wrong. http://www.novell.com/training/books/bookcat.html?cat=Administration&val=bookAdm I never found the SUSE bible or Apress books of any use.

Lets face it, Novell did this to save money NOT to save a tree! There's nothing wrong with them wanting to save money but not by cutting out one of the best reasons to buy the boxed set. If everyone was so concerned about saving trees, then bookstores and publishing companies would go out of business. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Trees are a renewable resource and that reasoning is just ridiculous.

I do seem to think that the boxed editions went down in price when they cheapend them up by pulling the durable CD holders and books. I think it used to be over $100 candaian with them, now it's down to under $60 or $70. So it is a little cheaper.((I am not sure about any of these retail prices -- just from my bad memory) -- "Develop success from failures. Discouragement and failure are two of the surest stepping stones to success." - Dale Carnegie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Lake-Wind wrote:

I won't buy another boxed set of SUSE until the admin manual is shipped with it, in book form again as it should be. The admin manual was the biggest reason for me to buy SUSE Linux Pro. I had no problem paying for the boxed set when it was included. Sure Microsoft no longer ships manuals with Windows but why should Novell sink to Microsoft's level?

I can only think of 348 million reasons... Just kiddin'... I miss the printed Admin guide too, although my PDF collection of books is probably 100 times bigger than my collection of printed books... -- Geir A. Myrestrand -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 07 December 2006 16:51, Geir A. Myrestrand wrote:

I miss the printed Admin guide too, although my PDF collection of books is probably 100 times bigger than my collection of printed books...

By the way, do you know of any "print-at-request" web site (preferably in Germany or Switzerland) that will let you upload a PDF and will send you a printed book? I think lulu.com does this, but it's in the States and I suppose the transport fees to Europe are quite big. Regards, Stelian Iancu -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Lake-Wind a écrit :

I feel that Novell should publish the manual and sell it separately,

we could enphasize on the fact that the admin manual can be largely disconnected from the distribution itself. I still use the 9.0 I have just on the shelf behind me. I mean, Novell don't have to make a new manual for each distro, may be just an addon to make print cheaper :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12/7/06, John Andersen wrote:

On Thursday 07 December 2006 06:39, D Gavrilovic wrote:

...

Well, there is always Novell Press and they do publish SLES stuff. I think the Firewalls one is the one that used to be published by New Riders. I may be wrong.

No, no, please not that.

The SUSE manuals are much more readable than any of the sawdust and breadcrumbs that ever came out of Novell Press.

They would assign their usual uninterested drone to re-edit the manuals and they would end up like all the rest the sand that gets shoveled into the Novell Connections magazine.

I actually like reading Connection magazine. There has been some great articles that I learnt from. Back when NetWare was the in thing, that was a good resource. Not so much with the Linux coverage but hope it will get better. -- "Develop success from failures. Discouragement and failure are two of the surest stepping stones to success." - Dale Carnegie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Thursday 07 December 2006 18:00, jdd wrote:

Lake-Wind a écrit :

...

I feel that Novell should publish the manual and sell it separately,

we could enphasize on the fact that the admin manual can be largely disconnected from the distribution itself. I still use the 9.0 I have just on the shelf behind me.

I mean, Novell don't have to make a new manual for each distro, may be just an addon to make print cheaper :-)

Actually we did this some time ago, if I remember correctly. We had the "Update Manual". It was mainly a collection of changes and additions not an addon as you think of. However, don't underestimate the amount of work just to create this piece. :) By the way: If everbody seem to be interested in documentation we have also the mailinglist opensuse-doc@opensuse.org for this purpose. :) Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org