Good morning to Europe and hello openSUSE team. To bring the discussion onto a rational level again and to start a proper thread about this and forget the derailed past thread, is there anything that this community sees we can do to better the situation now, so that Eberhard and gwdg.de won't be killed when we announce? I personally apologize to Eberhard if my posts caused further stress to him and it certainly was not my intention to provoke him to flame me. I really feel for Eberhard and his frustration is just a symptom for a problem that weMUST solve as a community. I can personally offer a server to be online at the same time as the announcement is done (as I have access to the iso's), but to be honest it is not near as grunty as Eberhard's server, but maybe all together we can make a difference? And I can get the torrent live as soon as the announcement is done. What else can we/you do? So I will be silent for now and leave it up to you all to fill this thread with suggestions and actions and reasonably find ways NOW to alleviate Eberhard's stress level. Any suse.de folks are also invited to make comments. Let's be a team and solve this together, please. Thanks and good morning beta4. Andreas openSUSE is SUPER: To help in the SUSE Performance Enhanced Release project visit http://www.opensuse.org/index.php/SUPER
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Andreas Girardet wrote:
To bring the discussion onto a rational level again and to start a proper thread about this and forget the derailed past thread, is there anything that this community sees we can do to better the situation now, so that Eberhard and gwdg.de won't be killed when we announce?
To make it short, there isn't much we can do. The only way I see is to really encourage users to download via Bittorrent. Again, this scales better, the more users are actually using it.
I really feel for Eberhard and his frustration is just a symptom for a problem that weMUST solve as a community.
Use Bittorrent, that's just it!
I can personally offer a server to be online at the same time as the announcement is done (as I have access to the iso's), but to be honest it is not near as grunty as Eberhard's server, but maybe all together we can make a difference? And I can get the torrent live as soon as the announcement is done.
Can you please send me the URL (as pm), so I can put it into download.opensuse.org...? Regards Christoph
Christoph Thiel schreef:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Andreas Girardet wrote:
To bring the discussion onto a rational level again and to start a proper thread about this and forget the derailed past thread, is there anything that this community sees we can do to better the situation now, so that Eberhard and gwdg.de won't be killed when we announce?
To make it short, there isn't much we can do. The only way I see is to really encourage users to download via Bittorrent. Again, this scales better, the more users are actually using it.
I really feel for Eberhard and his frustration is just a symptom for a problem that weMUST solve as a community.
Use Bittorrent, that's just it!
Bittorrent is indeed a good option, but it can't be the only one. Lots of us, at least here in Belgium, are on ADSL. This means that uploading directly affects your download speed, and that upload speed is generally capped at a fraction of the maximum download speed, which is 'punished' by the way BT works. Why can't openSUSE use a wider mirror system, using 'established' mirrors like mirrorservice.org, ibiblio, ftp.belnet.be, planetmirror, ... ? Most of these are SUSE mirrors anyway, why not put openSUSE under this tree and make it get mirrored automagically?
I can personally offer a server to be online at the same time as the announcement is done (as I have access to the iso's), but to be honest it is not near as grunty as Eberhard's server, but maybe all together we can make a difference? And I can get the torrent live as soon as the announcement is done.
After the first beta I put one of my boxes online as a mirror as well for a day, but it proved to be too big of a load on the rest of the sites. I burned about 100 Gb of bandwidth in one day, so there's definitely a need for fast and reliable mirrors.
Best, Lode
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Lode Vermeiren wrote:
Why can't openSUSE use a wider mirror system, using 'established' mirrors like mirrorservice.org, ibiblio, ftp.belnet.be, planetmirror, ... ? Most of these are SUSE mirrors anyway, why not put openSUSE under this tree and make it get mirrored automagically?
The problem we are facing here is that the openSUSE trees are really huge. We decided not to put the openSUSE stuff into the existing SUSE trees, in order to keep the size of that trees on the same level.
I can personally offer a server to be online at the same time as the announcement is done (as I have access to the iso's), but to be honest it is not near as grunty as Eberhard's server, but maybe all together we can make a difference? And I can get the torrent live as soon as the announcement is done.
After the first beta I put one of my boxes online as a mirror as well for a day, but it proved to be too big of a load on the rest of the sites. I burned about 100 Gb of bandwidth in one day, so there's definitely a need for fast and reliable mirrors.
Yes, ftp.gwdg.de is delivering some 1.5-2 TB per day...! Regards Christoph
On Thursday 01 September 2005 09:54, Lode Vermeiren wrote:
Christoph Thiel schreef:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Andreas Girardet wrote:
To bring the discussion onto a rational level again and to start a proper thread about this and forget the derailed past thread, is there anything that this community sees we can do to better the situation now, so that Eberhard and gwdg.de won't be killed when we announce?
To make it short, there isn't much we can do. The only way I see is to really encourage users to download via Bittorrent. Again, this scales better, the more users are actually using it.
I really feel for Eberhard and his frustration is just a symptom for a problem that weMUST solve as a community.
Use Bittorrent, that's just it!
Bittorrent is indeed a good option, but it can't be the only one. Lots of us, at least here in Belgium, are on ADSL. This means that uploading directly affects your download speed, and that upload speed is generally capped at a fraction of the maximum download speed, which is 'punished' by the way BT works.
Why can't openSUSE use a wider mirror system, using 'established' mirrors like mirrorservice.org, ibiblio, ftp.belnet.be, planetmirror, ... ? Most of these are SUSE mirrors anyway, why not put openSUSE under this tree and make it get mirrored automagically?
We have currently too much ouput per month and the mirrors need longer syncing times than our beta schedule does allow. We will address this via seperating the rpm trees from the isos and offering a new syncing mechanism for the trees which do only need to download the deltas. But this is something for post 10.0 RC1 ... For now there is only BitTorrent. bye adrian -- Adrian Schroeter SuSE AG, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany email: adrian@suse.de
I agree, for example I only need the iso's for mirroring purposes, but I am using the inst-source to update my machine to the next beta and offer a local installation source for those who need one, and these should be easier to mirror (rsync) and could be split from the plain iso download... Daniel Adrian Schroeter wrote:
We have currently too much ouput per month and the mirrors need longer syncing times than our beta schedule does allow.
We will address this via seperating the rpm trees from the isos and offering a new syncing mechanism for the trees which do only need to download the deltas.
But this is something for post 10.0 RC1 ...
For now there is only BitTorrent.
bye adrian
Hi Am Thursday 01 September 2005 09:54 schrieb Lode Vermeiren:
Bittorrent is indeed a good option, but it can't be the only one. Lots of us, at least here in Belgium, are on ADSL. This means that uploading directly affects your download speed, and that upload speed is generally capped at a fraction of the maximum download speed, which is 'punished' by the way BT works.
Have you tried wondershaper (included in SUSE)? Beside the "wonder" in the name it could help to increase upload without download speed suffer that much. Of course this will not kill the A in ADSL :-) -- with kind regards, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Lasarsch SUSE LINUX GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg martin.lasarsch@suse.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------- simply change to www.suse.de
hello, Lode Vermeiren wrote:
Bittorrent is indeed a good option, but it can't be the only one. Lots of us, at least here in Belgium, are on ADSL. This means that uploading directly affects your download speed, and that upload speed is generally capped at a fraction of the maximum download speed, which is 'punished' by the way BT works.
if you allow a maximum speed for uploads, your download speed will increase, and you'll be able to share sooner, so the community will agree ... the default setting for clients like azureus is not optimal. with an adsl connection in france, it works great.
Why can't openSUSE use a wider mirror system, using 'established' mirrors like mirrorservice.org, ibiblio, ftp.belnet.be, planetmirror, ... ? Most of these are SUSE mirrors anyway, why not put openSUSE under this tree and make it get mirrored automagically?
like the others, ftp is no use for such big projects as opensuse. i think bt is much more scallable and efficient than ftp (for opensuse at least). ftp is good only for updates, until bt can be used for that too. paul.
On Thursday 01 September 2005 5:56 am, IntegraGen wrote:
if you allow a maximum speed for uploads, your download speed will increase, and you'll be able to share sooner, so the community will agree ... the default setting for clients like azureus is not optimal. with an adsl connection in france, it works great.
Thanks, Paul! This is a great tip, one I was not aware of. I capped my upload speed at 10Kb/sec, and in minutes my download speed jumped from the low teens to 50Kb/sec. This is much better! Now I don't have to wonder where my DSL speeds disappeared to. This info should be added to the download page, while we're all encouraging people to use BitTorrent. Just have to remember to reset the upload cap when the download is complete. Sincerely, Mike McCallister
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Girardet wrote: ... > proper thread about this and forget the derailed past thread, is there > anything that this community sees we can do to better the situation now, > so that Eberhard and gwdg.de won't be killed when we announce? I don't see many options for beta4, it is out into the wild in a few hours' time. Nevertheless, we can try to find options for RC1. > I personally apologize to Eberhard if my posts caused further stress to > him and it certainly was not my intention to provoke him to flame me. Well, I don't want to put further flame into that, but I've always known Eberhard as someone who's very friendly, very helpful and technically savvy. BTW, Eberhard, thanks again for all your hard work, we (almost) all very much appreciate what you are doing :) > I really feel for Eberhard and his frustration is just a symptom for a > problem that weMUST solve as a community. I'm not sure whether that's something we must solve as a /community/. Maybe that's something that Novell/SUSE must solve as a /business/. SUSE Linux is heavily relying on ftp.gwdg.de as its main distribution mirror and I don't understand why Novell wouldn't sponsor a dedicated server. The costs are pretty much peanuts. All we can do is torrent, torrent, torrent. I've downloaded beta1 and beta2 through torrent, then beta3 through http because I wanted to see the difference in performance. While it is true that torrent is slower, we should use torrent nevertheless to reduce the load on gwdg.de. Are we really all /that/ impatient that we can't wait for one more day before we upgrade to beta4 ? Maybe we should all think about it for a second and download beta4 with ktorrent or azureus. I definately will. Now, even if everyone on this list goes with bittorrent, that won't reduce the gwdg.de load much (but let's do it nevertheless ;)). So, spread the word around that everyone should first try to download with torrent and if the download rate is acceptable (above 5kb/s ;)), stick with that. I'll definately tell anyone who's asking on #opensuse. > I can personally offer a server to be online at the same time as the > announcement is done (as I have access to the iso's), but to be honest > it is not near as grunty as Eberhard's server, but maybe all together we > can make a difference? And I can get the torrent live as soon as the > announcement is done. That would at least be a local mirror in .nz But yet, unless you have at least 5mbit/s upload rate, most users will want to have it "faster" and go for gwdg.de. Once a few mirrors have synched, the situation already should improve as far as load on gwgd.de is concerned. At least ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/mirrors/opensuse/distribution is a very fast option. But will it really help to drop the load from gwdg.de ? I'm not sure. Most users will go to http://www.opensuse.org, click download and they end up on gwdg.de. Maybe the redirection should balance on gwdg.de and uni-erlangen.de, to the very least, once that mirror has synched. So, to me, the main issue (besides the size of the distrbution being huge, as Eberhard already wrote) is that mirrors are one or two days behind when a beta/RC is released. > What else can we/you do? Not much, really, beta4 is there in 2 hours' time and even for RC1, the schedule is really, really short. 1) have Novell sponsor a server for gwdg.de 2) delay the announcement of RC1 until at least a few mirrors have synched (but that means 1 or maybe even *2* days after the target date on the roadmap, which isn't really an option either) 3) use torrent and encourage everyone to use torrent To me, (3) is the only realistic possibility although most people will still go for the http/ftp download via opensuse.org's download page. It's pretty obvious to everyone but: the more use torrent, the better it scales. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFDFqFpr3NMWliFcXcRAp5dAJY5RS2YNvjJs5qGvnOcDalOxEwnAJ9EWGe0 READ+1eTEhl5FZ1Aqu/kbw== =ggnF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Once a few mirrors have synched, the situation already should improve as far as load on gwgd.de is concerned. At least ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/mirrors/opensuse/distribution is a very fast option. But will it really help to drop the load from gwdg.de ? I'm not sure. Most users will go to http://www.opensuse.org, click download and they end up on gwdg.de. Maybe the redirection should balance on gwdg.de and uni-erlangen.de, to the very least, once that mirror has synched.
With beta3 uni-erlangen.de wasn't synced up within the first 24 hours, if I remember correctly. By the way: download.opensuse.org isn't a static redirect to gwdg.de, it basically is dynamic with some hooks to redirect *i386*.iso to ftp.gwdg.de, to keep those isos in the buffer cache, which seems to work out very well... Regards Christoph
I'n on the line with Pascal - the only thing the community can do is to use the torrents. not everyone in the community has access to a server that coulc act as a sort mirror (not even a slow one). to get the situation with BitTorrent (BT) better, there is something both - Novell / SUSE and the community can do: the "backbone" of BT are the seeders - users who have the complette files and are online as long as possible and so fast as possible. the *trick* could be as fallows: - at time X, all needed stuff is made by Novell/SUSE - RPMs, ISOs etc. the files will find there way to eberhard, so he can setup the main mirror - at time X+1 a working torrent-file is created, and on some place there will be a _main-seeder_ - maybe at Novell/SUSE, maybe at GWDG. importend: it has to be a *fast* seeder. and it has to accept as mutch clients as possible. at this time, no ISOs are public aviable jet, we are still before launchtime. - at time X+2 the torrent-file will be send out to the community - to all on this list, or to "special" users of the community. how ever, everyone starts his BT-client and downloads the ISOs. when there is a download speed around 50 - 100 kb/s, the complete files will be out in 10 - 14 hours. (this is the speed I have currently at 10 AM local german time ...). as near as possible as the main backbone is internal up und ready, also the resnc of mirrors can start. the mirror admins have to hold back all files and stuff till [launchtime+Y] so [X+2] should be arrount [launchtime - 12 hours] - at [launchtime] the BT-file will be announced at openSUSE.org. at this time there will be out sufficient data in the BT-network, so the users will have a acceptable download-speed. - at [launchtime+Y] when allmost more mirrors are ready the ISO- files will be announced at openSUSE.org. behind the downlaod- link at the wiki there will be run the load balancer that has his "eye" on all the mirrors and makes the redict to one og them. so not only af gwdg.de. Y should be arround 24 hours - I think that will be a timeframe that solves some of the problems that a) users and community wants to have the ISOs and b) the needed time to get more mirrors in sync with gwdg.de there is also the option *jigdo* that will be look good to solve some piece of the problem. I've worked with it for the win-GUI the last night, and I think that will be a good option (even I think, the need of a working GUI on other plattforms then Win is realy needed, and the main downloader jigdo-lite will realy need some improvemends (for example: it should be possible to have more then one wget running at the same time - even on slow connections). and last but not least: I agree with others that Novell/SUSE realy should think about the option for more support at gwdg.de for the situation *mirroring* - but that will be aout of the timeframe of this release I think. at least: the numbers of seeds with complette ISOs is up from 1 to 3 at 10.55 AM local german time - so, if users of / or the the community get more involved into the BT-track it will improve the BT-track, regards, JBScout
Pascal Bleser wrote:
BTW, Eberhard, thanks again for all your hard work, we (almost) all very much appreciate what you are doing :)
must be said. And if beta is a little late, don't bother, it's only a proof of success. what is necessary is a solution for the final release (this is also beta :-) jdd -- pour m'écrire, aller sur: http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.net http://arvamip.free.fr
Hi, On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, jdd wrote:
Pascal Bleser wrote:
BTW, Eberhard, thanks again for all your hard work, we (almost) all very much appreciate what you are doing :)
must be said. And if beta is a little late, don't bother, it's only a proof of success.
what is necessary is a solution for the final release (this is also beta :-)
ftp.gwdg.de is "almost complete" since the night - meaning: only some *-debuginfo-* RPMs are still missing. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Hi List, wouldn't it maybe help to at first only release the isos via bittorrent and add the ftp servers a few days later? That way all the "I need the new version NOW" people wouldn't rush the ftp servers, bittorrent would serv up faster (those people usually have hight bandwiths) and those people that have a bit more patience can download conveniently from the ftp servers at a later point. The mirrors would have a bit more time to sync and especially gwdg wouldn't suffer so much from the first onslaught... Just an Idea, Alexander
Yeah ... the question is : Is a bittorrent only realease at first still considered an on schedule realease & then fully synced servers can serve the iso's later. Is it rude to say that people have to use BT for the first day or two ? --- Alexander Grujic <ACeyx@web.de> wrote:
Hi List,
wouldn't it maybe help to at first only release the isos via bittorrent and add the ftp servers a few days later?
That way all the "I need the new version NOW" people wouldn't rush the ftp servers, bittorrent would serv up faster (those people usually have hight bandwiths) and those people that have a bit more patience can download conveniently from the ftp servers at a later point.
The mirrors would have a bit more time to sync and especially gwdg wouldn't suffer so much from the first onslaught...
Just an Idea,
Alexander
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I think you can call it a release as soon as you make it available to a broad public, and i wouldn't think it's rude... at least i would not feel offended ;-) JBScout [Thomas Lodewick] <jbscout_opsubeta@libitum.de> had the same idea (and postet it earlier on the list in a much more elaborte way, so I think there are at least two of us that would not be offended ;-)) Alex Am Donnerstag, 1. September 2005 19:31 schrieb Winston Graeme:
Yeah ... the question is : Is a bittorrent only realease at first still considered an on schedule realease & then fully synced servers can serve the iso's later.
Is it rude to say that people have to use BT for the first day or two ?
Yes I will also give my support to an initial BitTorrent only release. The clever way to do this for future releases, is to call the ftp release day the "launch" date, and have that date on the project schedule. The BitTorrent release is then the Community release date a day or so earlier. Peter. On 02/09/05, Alexander Grujic <ACeyx@web.de> wrote:
I think you can call it a release as soon as you make it available to a broad public, and i wouldn't think it's rude... at least i would not feel offended ;-)
JBScout [Thomas Lodewick] <jbscout_opsubeta@libitum.de> had the same idea (and postet it earlier on the list in a much more elaborte way, so I think there are at least two of us that would not be offended ;-))
Alex
Am Donnerstag, 1. September 2005 19:31 schrieb Winston Graeme:
Yeah ... the question is : Is a bittorrent only realease at first still considered an on schedule realease & then fully synced servers can serve the iso's later.
Is it rude to say that people have to use BT for the first day or two ?
As I never cared for servers with traffic amounts so huge as we are talking about here, maybe my suggestion is not viable, so simply tell me if I say something stupid. :-) For me the main problem seems to be, that the mirrors don't manage to rsync in a fast way (that there is not enough funding for Eberhard's server is a problem which can't be solved technically ;-) ). Isn't it possible to allow the mirrors to rsync with full bandwith by traffic shaping or does traffic shaping simply not scale up to this level? If the hardware doesn't allow this, maybe Eberhard should first store the files in a place which can only be accessed by the mirrors until they finished their rsyncs? BTW, to understand the situation better: The mirrors rsync to ftp.gwdg.de and not to some *.novell.com or *.suse.com? Are the mirror servers starting their rsync just a few minutes after the files are available or do they wait for some cron job? Not to forget to thank all the people who invest their time (and servers) for this project. :-) Ciao Siegbert
On Thu, Sep 01, 2005 at 03:06:36PM +0200, Siegbert Baude wrote:
For me the main problem seems to be, that the mirrors don't manage to rsync in a fast way (that there is not enough funding for Eberhard's server is a problem which can't be solved technically ;-) ). Isn't it possible to allow the mirrors to rsync with full bandwith by traffic shaping or does traffic shaping simply not scale up to this level?
The point is that the main problem here is not the network bandwidth but the disk I/O resulting from the enormous size of the data. This is similar to your desktop machine with 512 MB memory when you open and use so many applications at the same time that they use 3 GB if memory. In that case the machine starts swapping in and out memory pages resulting in a real slow system. Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@uni-mannheim.de
Robert Schiele schrieb:
On Thu, Sep 01, 2005 at 03:06:36PM +0200, Siegbert Baude wrote:
For me the main problem seems to be, that the mirrors don't manage to rsync in a fast way (that there is not enough funding for Eberhard's server is a problem which can't be solved technically ;-) ).
The point is that the main problem here is not the network bandwidth but the disk I/O resulting from the enormous size of the data.
I understood this, hence my remark with the funding. Nevertheless, it is better if some dozen mirrors serve below their optimal speed than only the main server is doing so and the mirrors can't serve at all, because they don't have the files yet. So, is traffic shaping or packet filtering to prioritize the mirrors no option? Ciao Siegbert
On Thu, Sep 01, 2005 at 05:51:30PM +0200, Siegbert Baude wrote:
So, is traffic shaping or packet filtering to prioritize the mirrors no option?
In theory this option does exist but in practice it is almost impossible to find useful limit values for the traffic shaper that do not make the server useless for other people as long as traffic is not the limiting factor. Note that controlling a complex system is only effective when you controll the limiting factor. The method would actually work if the traffic shaper would actually have control over disk I/O scheduling priority as well but AFAIK there is no such implementation for linux availlable yet. Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@uni-mannheim.de
Hi Andreas, On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Andreas Girardet wrote:
Good morning to Europe and hello openSUSE team.
good morning to down under mewanwhile...
To bring the discussion onto a rational level again and to start a proper thread about this and forget the derailed past thread, is there anything that this community sees we can do to better the situation now, so that Eberhard and gwdg.de won't be killed when we announce?
I personally apologize to Eberhard if my posts caused further stress to him and it certainly was not my intention to provoke him to flame me.
Please take my apologies back; it was my hardest night ever, with lots of faults at my side while trying to parallelize as much rsyncs as possible, and only 2 hours sleep between the days.
I really feel for Eberhard and his frustration is just a symptom for a problem that weMUST solve as a community.
Well, I have a solution in my head: more buffer cache. 32 GB RAM cost about 7700 Euros, but I would need a new machine with at least 16 (better 32) RAM slots if I had the money for the RAM.
I can personally offer a server to be online at the same time as the announcement is done (as I have access to the iso's), but to be honest it is not near as grunty as Eberhard's server, but maybe all together we can make a difference? And I can get the torrent live as soon as the announcement is done.
I guess I can lean back now; ftp.gwdg.de is still not complete (10 GB of inst-source/suse{i586,src,x86_64} are still missing, but I have excluded all *debug-info* files for the current rsyncs, so it is more complete than one could guess. i586 has 1857 rpms now, x86_64 has 2254. The iso directory is still missing the ppc ISOs 2 - 5. The server is delivering very well over all. The byte count at the ethernet switch is overflowing almost every minute, so it is about 71 MByte/sec or 570 Mbit/sec, but the filesystem (disk I/O) is very sticky so that the remaining files get very slowly in, regardless that they come from ftp4 over a separate Gbit link. Load is above 700, with 600 ftp, 1200 http and 100 rsync sessions, so it should appear slow for each single user who is not fetching the i386 or x86_64 ISOs... The "special offer of the day" is: i386 and x86_64 ISOs. Christoph's redirects keep them fresh within the buffer cache, The more requested the fresher... There is still about 25 MByte/sec spare bandwidth all the way up to the "many GBit" backbone. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Guten Abend Eberhard (Morgen hier)
Please take my apologies back; it was my hardest night ever, with lots of faults at my side while trying to parallelize as much rsyncs as possible, and only 2 hours sleep between the days.
Totally accepted and understood. I have been there and can really feel for you, mate! Take care of yourself ...... All the best Andreas openSUSE is SUPER: To help in the SUSE Performance Enhanced Release project visit http://www.opensuse.org/index.php/SUPER
participants (17)
-
Adrian Schroeter -
Alexander Grujic -
Andreas Girardet -
Christoph Thiel -
Daniel Secareanu -
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
IntegraGen -
JBScout [Thomas Lodewick] -
jdd -
Lode Vermeiren -
Martin Lasarsch -
Mike McCallister -
Pascal Bleser -
Peter Flodin -
Robert Schiele -
Siegbert Baude -
Winston Graeme