David Benfell a écrit :

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:42:19 -0400, Jul wrote: <SNIP>

The installation is not the only reason for choosing a distribution.

Plain stupid ! What do you want me to do with a distro I can't install. Installation has to be completed prior dealing with the nice features of the distro...

Most of the complaining I've seen has been on YaST2 being rammed down everyone's throats.

Because it's not reliable, to say the least...

Most of what I've heard otherwise on SuSE 8.0 is that it's a well put-together distribution.

Right, as long as you can get it installed !

The decision to drop YaST was an unfortunate one, which many of us would have advised against. I doubt that SuSE management foresaw the resulting outcry.

It was NOT an unfortunate one. It was a price cutting one, a profit rising one with NO influence of any technical P.O.V. For that reason and others : - Books are not translated in french any more - Price raised from 25 euros (6.2) to 82 (8.0) - Support no more available to me and many others, people using SMP, or SCSI & IDE at the same time... (just read the fine prints), I finally found a solution to my problem with SuSE (having the 8.0 pro edition for 2 monthes and not being able to install it, nor getting any support from SuSE) : I'm going to buy Debian 3.0 (3 CD, < 10 euros), install it, turn SuSE RPM into apt-installable packages using alien and forget about damned SuSE 8.0 which might be a nice distro like preceding SuSE distro were, but which is definitly to much trouble & too bloody expensive.

There are two messages to be gleaned from all this:

1) For a great many of their customers, SuSE isn't just another distribution. It isn't just marketing hype -- we've found a really good distribution which we care about. We want it to stay that way, and SuSE sees some sales as a result. read wasn't where isn't is written

2) A diversity of tools is a strength which appeals to more people in more situations with more systems. This is a technical advantage easily lost on accountants. But it's also one of the things that makes open source work (even though YaST is not open source).

B.S. One tool is plenty went it works. I don't care for good ole Yast. I'm sure I'd get used pretty easily to Yast2 if it wasn't that braindead & buggy.

SuSE would do well to heed these lessons; their customer base will erode if they start to look like just another distribution.

B.S. again : SuSE management does exactly what it thinks better for profit rising, I do exactly what I think better serves my interests... BTW, I teach Unix admin and shell programming. I started a 3 weeks summer session this very morning and gave Mandrake 8.2 to install to my students, not wanting to take any risk with braindead Yast2. For the last 4 years, I used to have the last available SuSE version installed. So long pals, I may come back sometimes, who knows... -- ~adj~ Ces mystères nous dépassent Feignons d'en être l'organisateur...

Some advice: First, if someone is acquainted with YaST2 and SuSE Linux, chooses to be a SuSE Linux user and wants to whine about ones dislike like of YaST2, maybe that person shouldn't complain. Maybe that person should use another distro and whine about that one. In my opinion, the new YaST2 is the finest prepackaged, GUI based, system administration tool avaliable as part of any Linux distribution. Redhat's and Mandrake's alternatives are disorganized and not well centralized. Many current SuSE Linux users and supporters have made SuSE Linux their distribution of choice precisely because of YaST2 and other outstanding features. Since the discontinuation of YaST1, many of the complainers have decried the supposed lack of a text based YaST. The text bast YaST1 has been replaced by a text based YaST2. Just switch to a terminal emulater or pseudo terminal and enter yast2. You will be presented with a ncurses based YaST client. The next argument is that YaST and other SuSE tool are proprietary, the sources are not avaliable, and that it is some sort of big corporate plot to take advantage of the open source world. There MUST always be a place for choice in the the realm of software. I am a big supporter of open source, but I believe that there must always be an equal place for proprietary, open source, and free software. One of the main reasons that we so dislike entities like micro$oft and novel is that they are against that same aforementioned belief. Therefore, we must avoid acting like propriatary software is evil incarnate or we become a mirrored image of micro$oft and the like. The key here as long as we have choice, which SuSE distros provide in an unparalleled manner, proprietary tools a really not an issue. If you do not like them replace them widely avaliable open source tools, edit your configurations with VI and use GNU tools. If you don't like YaST2 decompile it and make it better or hack YaST1. I believe that if someone wants to write proprietary Linux software they have the right to do so, just as someone who wants give their free creations to the world has the right to do so without being criticized. I think (among others) there are two distinct ethics or type among open source/free software users. There are those who understand that free in free software often means free as in freedom, and choose to buy linux distro releases and software and otherwise financially support open source and other types of software development not because they have to, but because they want to for the value it provides to users and the world at large. These people understand just because software is intangible doesn't mean that its developers don't put years of hard work and effort into it. They understand that they sacrifice much to provide us with great software and that these talented people must earn their living like the rest of us. There are also those who think, why pay for something .... or support something ... when I can get it for free, rip it, steel it, etc. They are part of the rip-off computer culture who stand for nothing, support nothing and only use free GNU/software because its a "steal." not because it is superior. And believe that software shouldn't be payed for in any form. For example, a thank you Email, a small dontation, or buying the retail version are totally beyond their comprehension. By the way, these seem to be the ones who whine the most. They bring to mind a fellow I know who loves computing, uses only bootlegged windokes and windokes apps. He doesn't like Linux or open source software because as he puts it, "If its free it must not be worth stealing." How idiotic. Please, lets quit whining about YaST2 on this forum. If you do have a problem with YaST2 then do not use it. Perhaps you should write your own administration app to use instead. The choice is yours. Max On Tuesday 30 July 2002 11:49 pm, Oliver Fuchs wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Alain DIDIERJEAN wrote:

...

For that reason and others : - Books are not translated in french any more

Why to translate books in any language other than english?

...

- Price raised from 25 euros (6.2) to 82 (8.0)

... and in 1836 you paid for SuSE linux two eggs ... SuSE Pro 8.0 price was not 82€

...

- Support no more available to me and many others, people

Support is available (Debian has no support at all) ... and besides this what about this list?

...

I'm going to buy Debian 3.0 (3 CD, < 10 euros),

Actually the Debian 'Woody' distro is more expensive ... and includin the source files you pay about 45€ ... and if you consider that Debian 'Woody' (when it is out - does anybody know when it is out?) it is technically equal to SuSE 7.3 ... and with 25 € it is cheaper than Debian Woody

...

B.S. again : SuSE management does exactly what it thinks better for profit rising, I do exactly what I think better serves my interests...

A company that does not care about its profits is a dead company ... and especially today it is hard for a software company to survive ... with the distros its is like being with/in the church ... nobody tells you you must be in ... I do not think that the configuration tool YAST is determining the quality of a distro ... and to be honest Debian is not much more stable than SuSE ... and I do not want to wait for years to receive a distro that is at the moment of release antiquated ... if you do not like Yast then you always have the possibility to setup your system by your own (ENABLE_SUSECONFIG) ... I like the SuSE distros maybe because it was the first linux distro I used ... so, never mind if you want to leave ... I wish you good luck

Oliver

Hi Derek and all,

People pay a lot of money for SuSE Linux. It's not a shoestring product as someone else said. In the UK SuSE-8.0 Pro is 60 quid. For anyone on an average income, that's a figure which requires some thought before spending.

The upgrade cost me more like 40 including p&p. My income's well below average, as I'm stupid enough to work in the public sector, but this is still less money than a windows upgrade (about a third if you want to upgrade to xp), and it comes with 95% of all known linux programs. How much do you think they should charge?

I'm not saying SuSE is bad value - quite the contrary - but given a significant financial outlay one feels entitled to complain about the poor aspects of any product, software or otherwise. And yes, going to another distro is an option, as long as SuSE give a full refund when someone says the quality of the SuSE product is not good enough.

Oh come on. Does IBM do that when people complain? A total-satisfaction-with-every-slight-aspect-of-the-product-or-your-money-back guarantee? On gigabytes of stuff? They'd be bust in months. Like I said, I'd rather it was free, too, but I'm always surprised at how cheaply they manage this.

Also, don't you think that SuSE actually appreciate the feedback such whining produces? They can't fail to have noticed that YaST2 is not popular. They'll do something about it.

"Product x SUCKS!!!" isn't feedback. It's worthless bleating. No-one minds a constructive comment.

...which has a seriously crap user interface. YaST1 was a snip to navigate around. YaST2 in text mode is a bewilderment.

I haven't got used to it either. But surely you appreciate their points about development costs? Best Fergus

Derek Fountain <fountai@hursley.ibm.com> [31 Jul 2002 12:13:08 +0100]:

Yes, of course, but since they've gone to a lot of effort to produce a crap text UI when it would have cost little more (probably less) to do it properly,

Pray tell me where you take the knowledge that it would have been so easy for us? Honestly, if it would have been so cheap in resources as you imply, we would have done it! But neither the number of colleagues working on YaST2 nor available time is unlimited (much in contrast to the feature list :), so we have to prioritize things. Philipp -- Philipp Thomas work: pthomas@suse.de Development SuSE Linux AG private: philippt@t-online.de

Well, I fully agree with the claim at everybody that will do a program can choose to do it like free software or like proprietary software. Proprietary have a restriction for me, i can not get the source code and with the complexiti of some software, it is very difficult to test the security without the source code. It is not a big concern for me, but i know at it is a very big concern for some companies for wich securuty is the top one concern. I bellieve att Yast 2 is a very good software, the problem is not here. Yast is the installation and configuration software for SuSE and nothing else. Every distribution have such software for they respective distribution and all those software are working very well with the respective distribution. Yast is particulierly powerfull and simple to use if you take the time to read what is on the screen and in the docs and i like it for that. The problem is at, for what i know, no one distribution have a file hierachy that is 100% respectfull with the Linux Files Hierarchy Standard. The consequence of that is at it can be very dificult for a non linux system specialist to get the right information in case of problem or to install extra softwares. It's like a lotery with those software. Maybe they will install, maybe not. After the install, maybe they will work, maybe not. It is very time consuming to find where is the problem when something don't work. Even if you are using a rpm package, it's different kind of rpm because of the different hierarchies of the different distributions. And a lot of software's makers don't even say where youi can get the depandant packages if you don't have it, or they say at you must have the "xyz" library and don't say at this file is in the "rst" package. Another thing is bad with that. It is at every distribution's maker have his own documentation about the configuration of the system and it is more and more informations like in windows : "to start konkeror, click on the konkeror's icon". On the other hand, it's many very valuable information in the howtos and in the man pages, but a big part is completly out of date because of the complete dispertion of the efforts of the documentation's makers. Why do a howto for a configuration problem when all the distributions have a different way to do this configuration? And the distribution's makers have not the time or the willing to systematicaly do that kind of documentation. I have been very disapointed by the books int the 7.2 profesional version. The books in the home version are good for one that will just use Linux like we can use windows. But Linux is also to put the fingers in the grease. And for that the supplementary books they are in the proof version have not satisfied me. It's a lot of informations they are on many books and the systematique of the reference book and of the installation book are not as good as it can be. I don't need an explanation to how i must do to configure the keyboard in the reference book. What i need in the reference book is where i can find the files they are doing the keybord working, wich files they are and an explanation about the differences about the different keybords. Wich difference it is between a windows keyboard and a 101 keys one. The place of the biggest part of the 5 first chapiter in the reference book is in the installation book. This will do the place in the reference book to have much more interresant stuff, to have a real in deap vue of the suse system. In the other hand it's even worse with windows, the only serious documentation you get with windows is the total absence of serious documentation. * But i think at, like Linux is also to get the hands in the grease, linux need a better concertation on that problem. It's a file hierarchy, OK use it. If you don't will use it, do you own linux from the scratch. I have take a look to linux from the scratch web site. The tutor seam very good and i think i will prove to do it, if i get the time. Not to do an exotic linux but to do a linux fully in agrement with the file hierarchy standard. I don't think at linux can become much bigger without solve this problem. A normal user will not use 4 hours to try to get a software to install and work, not even one hour. If i look Mozilla, it's a great browser, plugger is great too. But the installation of plugger is very complicated for a normal user that wil get all the possible options to work. And it is a lot of softwares they are 1000% worst to install as plugger. A big company have the money to pay to get the software working like they will. A normal user don't have it and after a full day at job, the children they will use the PC too, the wife or the husban that need attention too, the alarme-clock that will ring the wake up at the morning, he or she don't have much time too. For a little company in most case, it's like for a normal user, they don't have the time or the money to get the software to work, it must work. Maybe 50% of the extra softwares i have tried to install are still on my system. I download it, i try to install it and when the time i have is out, if it is working i keep it, if not, i remove it. It's only if i really need a software that will not work at the first time that i do some other try to get it to work. Often it is faster to try some other software that is doing the same job. I beleive at it must be the greatest concern of the linux community today if linux will not be only the perfect OS for system specialist. All friends they have see my linux box working are saying the same things: It's look very professionel and powerfull but i am very affraid to learn a new OS like Linux. Sure, it will always be some kind of stuff they are not perfect in Linux like in every other OS, but the installation process of the extra softwares is a great minus with Linux at that time. The complexity and the time consuming side of the research of the right information in case of problem is another great concern for a normal user at that time and i believe at those two problems are in fact the two sides of the same problem. Dominique * For the fun, the worst thing i have seen in windows is in the help of win 95. It's a text that explain what to do if you can not read the text you are reading. Wonderfull! One guy get payed to found it and he put it in windows and all the other guys have said "Great, you have done a good job. We will sold that in every land in the world." They can all go back at school and learn again the Peter's principle. Max Webb wrote:

Some advice: First, if someone is acquainted with YaST2 and SuSE Linux, chooses to be a SuSE Linux user and wants to whine about ones dislike like of YaST2, maybe that person shouldn't complain. Maybe that person should use another distro and whine about that one. In my opinion, the new YaST2 is the finest prepackaged, GUI based, system administration tool avaliable as part of any Linux distribution. Redhat's and Mandrake's alternatives are disorganized and not well centralized. Many current SuSE Linux users and supporters have made SuSE Linux their distribution of choice precisely because of YaST2 and other outstanding features. Since the discontinuation of YaST1, many of the complainers have decried the supposed lack of a text based YaST. The text bast YaST1 has been replaced by a text based YaST2. Just switch to a terminal emulater or pseudo terminal and enter yast2. You will be presented with a ncurses based YaST client. The next argument is that YaST and other SuSE tool are proprietary, the sources are not avaliable, and that it is some sort of big corporate plot to take advantage of the open source world. There MUST always be a place for choice in the the realm of software. I am a big supporter of open source, but I believe that there must always be an equal place for proprietary, open source, and free software. One of the main reasons that we so dislike entities like micro$oft and novel is that they are against that same aforementioned belief. Therefore, we must avoid acting like propriatary software is evil incarnate or we become a mirrored image of micro$oft and the like. The key here as long as we have choice, which SuSE distros provide in an unparalleled manner, proprietary tools a really not an issue. If you do not like them replace them widely avaliable open source tools, edit your configurations with VI and use GNU tools. If you don't like YaST2 decompile it and make it better or hack YaST1. I believe that if someone wants to write proprietary Linux software they have the right to do so, just as someone who wants give their free creations to the world has the right to do so without being criticized. I think (among others) there are two distinct ethics or type among open source/free software users. There are those who understand that free in free software often means free as in freedom, and choose to buy linux distro releases and software and otherwise financially support open source and other types of software development not because they have to, but because they want to for the value it provides to users and the world at large. These people understand just because software is intangible doesn't mean that its developers don't put years of hard work and effort into it. They understand that they sacrifice much to provide us with great software and that these talented people must earn their living like the rest of us. There are also those who think, why pay for something .... or support something ... when I can get it for free, rip it, steel it, etc. They are part of the rip-off computer culture who stand for nothing, support nothing and only use free GNU/software because its a "steal." not because it is superior. And believe that software shouldn't be payed for in any form. For example, a thank you Email, a small dontation, or buying the retail version are totally beyond their comprehension. By the way, these seem to be the ones who whine the most. They bring to mind a fellow I know who loves computing, uses only bootlegged windokes and windokes apps. He doesn't like Linux or open source software because as he puts it, "If its free it must not be worth stealing." How idiotic. Please, lets quit whining about YaST2 on this forum. If you do have a problem with YaST2 then do not use it. Perhaps you should write your own administration app to use instead. The choice is yours.

Max

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 11:49 pm, Oliver Fuchs wrote:

...

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Alain DIDIERJEAN wrote:

...

For that reason and others : - Books are not translated in french any more

Why to translate books in any language other than english?

...

- Price raised from 25 euros (6.2) to 82 (8.0)

... and in 1836 you paid for SuSE linux two eggs ... SuSE Pro 8.0 price was not 82€

...

- Support no more available to me and many others, people

Support is available (Debian has no support at all) ... and besides this what about this list?

...

I'm going to buy Debian 3.0 (3 CD, < 10 euros),

Actually the Debian 'Woody' distro is more expensive ... and includin the source files you pay about 45€ ... and if you consider that Debian 'Woody' (when it is out - does anybody know when it is out?) it is technically equal to SuSE 7.3 ... and with 25 € it is cheaper than Debian Woody

...

B.S. again : SuSE management does exactly what it thinks better for profit rising, I do exactly what I think better serves my interests...

A company that does not care about its profits is a dead company ... and especially today it is hard for a software company to survive ... with the distros its is like being with/in the church ... nobody tells you you must be in ... I do not think that the configuration tool YAST is determining the quality of a distro ... and to be honest Debian is not much more stable than SuSE ... and I do not want to wait for years to receive a distro that is at the moment of release antiquated ... if you do not like Yast then you always have the possibility to setup your system by your own (ENABLE_SUSECONFIG) ... I like the SuSE distros maybe because it was the first linux distro I used ... so, never mind if you want to leave ... I wish you good luck

Oliver

Well spoken, Max Oliver -- ... don't touch the bang-bang fruit

Sure YAST2 sucks. But it sucks like a Vegas showgirl - and that ain't bad. -- JAY VOLLMER JVOLLMER@VISI.COM TEXT REFS DOUBLEPLUSUNGOOD SELFTHINK VERGING CRIMETHINK IGNORE FULLWISE

begin Salman Khilji's quote: | Like a vegas showgirl??? Then we must request SuSE to never take | it away ;) | | On Wednesday 31 July 2002 03:03, Jay Vollmer wrote: | > Sure YAST2 sucks. But it sucks like a Vegas showgirl - and that | > ain't bad. yeah. you have to pay, you might get bitten, and the likelihood of disease is considerable. -- dep http://www.linuxandmain.com -- outside the box, barely within the envelope, and no animated paperclip anywhere.

A company that does not care about its profits is a dead company ... and especially today it is hard for a software company to survive .

Too right. I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone who thinks they are getting a poor deal out of SuSE has failed to comprehend the market they work in, the stunning quality of the shoestring-priced product, and their achievement in even staying afloat in an industry dangerously close to complete monopoly domination. SuSE is a small, young, hard-working company whose efforts have enormously improved the working and leisure hours of many of us. What do you think they are going to eat, revolutionary fervour? I'd like the product free, too, but I'd far rather pay up to whatever pricing structure they feel they need than watch them go down. So yast didn't get up early this morning and make your breakfast - bad luck. I had to reinstall Windows last night, 23 reboots and four hours later I'm still nowhere near a working system, cf. the suse 8.0 install which was like a beautiful dream experienced on a sunny beach by comparison. SuSE correct problems FAST by anyone's standards, and while I understand the problems people in soft-currency countries may have in affording the necessary euros, to get the same kinds of high-quality apps running on 'doze will cost many hundreds of dollars. And free-forever access to new progs and patches, updated rpms, documentation ... I am as much liable to lose my rag dealing with a difficult or annoying configuration problem as the next person - but what 'sucks' is an aggressive and childish attitude on public mailing lists, not yast or SuSE. Best to all Fergus