On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Oddball wrote:

Andrei Verovski (aka MacGuru) schreef:

...

Hi !

According to the reliable sources, press releases and media coverage the largest Linux migration (several millions of PCs and servers currently running Windows XP/Vista and MS Servers) ever is about to start.

The first news come from national-wide Russian Post service (state-owned company) which signed an agreement with Red Hat and IBM to switch MS-based platform to Red Hat Linux and Open Referent.

For a project of this size I find it odd they chose Red Hat (or IBM for that matter). You would almost think they would chosen ALT or started their own distro for a project of this size. An why hire IBM? The Russian linux community is well regarded, and probably at least as well versed as IBM. After that big inventment IBM made in SuSE/Novell, its odd they didn't push SLED. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 01 April 2008 11:57:26 am Oddball wrote:

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For a project of this size I find it odd they chose Red Hat (or IBM for that matter).

You would almost think they would chosen ALT or started their own distro for a project of this size. An why hire IBM? The Russian linux community is well regarded, and probably at least as well versed as IBM.

After that big inventment IBM made in SuSE/Novell, its odd they didn't push SLED.

That's because Novell marketing sucks. (That comes from a friend who attended brainshare and berated the marketing group directly.)

Maybe they did not want M$? (sick joke..)

Dunno. I find it odd the news was released on April 1. Even my friends in Germany were sending me April Fool's Jokes. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

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On Tuesday 01 April 2008 11:57:26 am Oddball wrote:

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For a project of this size I find it odd they chose Red Hat (or IBM for that matter).

You would almost think they would chosen ALT or started their own distro for a project of this size. An why hire IBM? The Russian linux community is well regarded, and probably at least as well versed as IBM.

After that big inventment IBM made in SuSE/Novell, its odd they didn't push SLED.

That's because Novell marketing sucks.

(That comes from a friend who attended brainshare and berated the marketing group directly.)

Novell's marketing has ALWAYS been bad, and until they get some people like some of us here, who know how to "fight in the trenches," they'll still end up not being where they could be and should be!

IBM had that problem in the days of OS/2, along with having too many lawyers on retainer who found more ways not to do something than to do something.......WOULDN'T work with OEMS like video chip makers. Had I been "Cookie Man" at the time, I'd fired 3/4 of the "suits" and EVERYONE in marketing!

Fred

Although I'm entering this conversation mid-stream, I agree with the Novell comment. Their marketing sucks. Sad, because their directory services are killer. NDS is and has always been superior to Microsoft's Active Directory. I can recall working with replication in my CNE courses a few years back, thinking "man, Novell can do directory services on Windows better than Microsoft can!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller wrote:

Novell has ALWAYS had a better product! But, their management has and still does leave a lot to be desired.....marketing is the WORST of all.

Fred

Agree whole-heartedly. Where is netware today? Where is Word Perfect today? Both worked well, When Novell acquired WP at the 5.x-6.0 juncture and then put out WP 6.5, 6.5 was a great product for its time and would run circles around word 1.0f and 2.0. And today? Go figure... -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

David C. Rankin wrote:

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Fred A. Miller wrote:

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Novell has ALWAYS had a better product! But, their management has and still does leave a lot to be desired.....marketing is the WORST of all.

Fred

Agree whole-heartedly. Where is netware today? Where is Word Perfect today? Both worked well, When Novell acquired WP at the 5.x-6.0 juncture and then put out WP 6.5, 6.5 was a great product for its time and would run circles around word 1.0f and 2.0. And today? Go figure...

One thing you're missing is how Microsoft deliberately caused problems for competing software. There's currently a lawsuit over how Microsoft interfered with Word Perfect. They did the same thing to DR-DOS & OS/2, among others.

Right you are again James. There were those little OEM installed OS problems, illegal tying agreements and not so subtle violations of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act that Novell had to contend with. I wonder how many of those rights were given away in the Novell-MS deal.. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Fred A. Miller wrote:

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Novell has ALWAYS had a better product! But, their management has and still does leave a lot to be desired.....marketing is the WORST of all.

Fred

Agree whole-heartedly. Where is netware today? Where is Word Perfect today? Both worked well, When Novell acquired WP at the 5.x-6.0 juncture and then put out WP 6.5, 6.5 was a great product for its time and would run circles around word 1.0f and 2.0. And today? Go figure...

One thing you're missing is how Microsoft deliberately caused problems for competing software. There's currently a lawsuit over how Microsoft interfered with Word Perfect. They did the same thing to DR-DOS & OS/2, among others.

Right you are again James. There were those little OEM installed OS problems, illegal tying agreements and not so subtle violations of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act that Novell had to contend with. I wonder how many of those rights were given away in the Novell-MS deal..

Considering that the Word Perfect lawsuit is in court right now, probably not much. I can't believe that Novell would sign away the core of a lawsuit that they're still actively pursuing against MS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 20:31 -0400, Sam Clemens wrote:

That's mostly due to M$ bundling Word with new machines to drive WP out of the market (making Word *appear* to be free, whereas WP would cost extra.)

The whole purpose of this, of course, was to eliminate a very popular cross-platform application, thereby driving everyone into Windows whether they wanted to be there or not.

Devil's advocate here: I wonder what a pay-for-it software company thinks of Linux distros including 'free' apps automatically? It must do to them what MS did to WP and others. If MS was smart, they would make a Linux version of Word that must be purchased just so they could take Linux distros to court for including things like OO. Make Linux distros stop including all this free software that is locking folk into Linux. :) -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 12:05 +0200, Neil wrote:

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 20:31 -0400, Sam Clemens wrote:

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That's mostly due to M$ bundling Word with new machines to drive WP out of the market (making Word *appear* to be free, whereas WP would cost extra.)

The whole purpose of this, of course, was to eliminate a very popular cross-platform application, thereby driving everyone into Windows whether they wanted to be there or not.

Devil's advocate here:

I wonder what a pay-for-it software company thinks of Linux distros including 'free' apps automatically? It must do to them what MS did to WP and others. If MS was smart, they would make a Linux version of Word that must be purchased just so they could take Linux distros to court for including things like OO. Make Linux distros stop including all this free software that is locking folk into Linux. :)

-- Roger Oberholtzer

OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST

Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden

Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696

True, the fact that Linux distro's install a lot of usefull programs by default could be seen as such. However: it is not feasible to offer an OS that doesn't offer things as browsing and text processing out of the box. The default browsers and text processsors are, however, platform independant, and do not lock you to Linux. Also the target is not to suppress the other browsers and text processors: If Seamonkey is found superiour to Firefox by enough users they will switch, or a distro wil emerge having SeaMonkey as default. Micro$oft will not change their defaults, whether the users think another program is better or not. They will continue enforcing their software. That's the major difference

I was making a point - and not one I really believe. But I think is can be made. As to the motivation on the part of Linux distros for including these things, well, that is what the court case would be to decide. I do think MS could put itself in a position to ask a court to question if the Linux motivation is different from the MS motivation as seen by the courts in, say, the Netscape decision. The courts did not like/believe MS' defense. MS could argue that Linux distros are now doing the same thing. Or at least that the effect to MS is the same as it was to Netscape, no matter what the stated motivation of Linux distros is. So, if MS ever starts making Linux software no one really wants, there may be more than one reason. I think the Netscape decision was based on the economy of the user (why pay for it when you have one free) and not technically that one was better than the other. But enough of this useless banter, no? -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 12:05 +0200, Neil wrote:

...

...

On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 20:31 -0400, Sam Clemens wrote:

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That's mostly due to M$ bundling Word with new machines to drive WP out of the market (making Word *appear* to be free, whereas WP would cost extra.)

The whole purpose of this, of course, was to eliminate a very popular cross-platform application, thereby driving everyone into Windows whether they wanted to be there or not.

Devil's advocate here:

I wonder what a pay-for-it software company thinks of Linux distros including 'free' apps automatically? It must do to them what MS did to WP and others. If MS was smart, they would make a Linux version of Word that must be purchased just so they could take Linux distros to court for including things like OO. Make Linux distros stop including all this free software that is locking folk into Linux. :)

-- Roger Oberholtzer

OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST

Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden

Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 True, the fact that Linux distro's install a lot of usefull programs by default could be seen as such. However: it is not feasible to offer an OS that doesn't offer things as browsing and text processing out of

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: the box. The default browsers and text processsors are, however, platform independant, and do not lock you to Linux. Also the target is not to suppress the other browsers and text processors: If Seamonkey is found superiour to Firefox by enough users they will switch, or a distro wil emerge having SeaMonkey as default. Micro$oft will not change their defaults, whether the users think another program is better or not. They will continue enforcing their software. That's the major difference

I was making a point - and not one I really believe. But I think is can be made. As to the motivation on the part of Linux distros for including these things, well, that is what the court case would be to decide. I do think MS could put itself in a position to ask a court to question if the Linux motivation is different from the MS motivation as seen by the courts in, say, the Netscape decision. The courts did not like/believe MS' defense. MS could argue that Linux distros are now doing the same thing.

They could. But the DOJ Attornies would just reply, "Et tu, Brute'?" and laugh in their faces as they realize the poetic justice that has been served. Strangely enough, former industry racketeering leader, who STILL sells proprietary operating systems and software for every line of equipment they make, actively promotes the use of Linux on their machines. Why is that? Because: 1: IBM has learned to compete on quality, not avarice 2: Bill and his pals are the most prominent bunch of psychopaths the world has ever seen. I'm just glad they never decided to go into politics, because the death toll would rival that of Mao Tse Tung and Stalin.

Or at least that the effect to MS is the same as it was to Netscape, no matter what the stated motivation of Linux distros is. So, if MS ever starts making Linux software no one really wants, there may be more than one reason. I think the Netscape decision was based on the economy of the user (why pay for it when you have one free) and not technically that one was better than the other.

Netscape was giving away the browser, too (you could buy it in the store, or you could ftp it from their site for free). The purpose was to generate demand for Netscape's webserver product.

But enough of this useless banter, no?

What needs to be done with Microsoft is what was done with IBM -- a very HARD wall with no-backchannel communication between the operating systems and applications groups, so that IBM's application group no longer has a privileged position, and all software vendors writing for a platform have the same access to information. Basically, IBM is strictly prohibited from publishing "internal specs." If an OS group publishes a spec, EVERYONE gets to have access to it, not just the IBM applications groups. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/4/3, John Andersen :

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 3:05 AM, Neil wrote:

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Micro$oft will not change their defaults, whether the users think another program is better or not. They will continue enforcing their software. That's the major difference

Was true. Is not anymore. You can now select defaults for all the major end-user software, from browsers, to word processing, photo editing, emil, spreadsheets, etc, etc, etc.

They had to do this by court order, and they have done it fairly well. You still have to use the windows interface, not much in the way of alternatives like Gnome,KDE, Fce4 as you have in lynux and bsd.

Maybe that's not too far away, some time ago I read about "Windows without Windows" :D

(such things do exist, but get virtually no respect from anybody).

-- ----------JSA---------

--

Ciro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 20:31 -0400, Sam Clemens wrote:

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That's mostly due to M$ bundling Word with new machines to drive WP out of the market (making Word *appear* to be free, whereas WP would cost extra.)

The whole purpose of this, of course, was to eliminate a very popular cross-platform application, thereby driving everyone into Windows whether they wanted to be there or not.

Devil's advocate here:

I wonder what a pay-for-it software company thinks of Linux distros including 'free' apps automatically? It must do to them what MS did to

Who cares? It means that if they want people to pay for their software, it will take something more than the standard bug-ware which has become standard within so much of the industry. Back in the 1980's most software companies would have been absolutely aghast at the concept of daring to charge money for software with so many horrendous, glaring bugs and crashes as is typical in modern software. It's quite pathetic. So, seriously, I don't care what they think.

WP and others.

Years ago, IBM was every bit as much of a bullying criminal enterprise in this industry as MS is now. [And Gates has absolutely no excuse for most of Microsoft's behavior, because the precedents for these practices being illegal were set by IBM's string of losses on charges filed by the DOJ, and most of all William Gates, Jr. (Billy's father) WAS A CORPORATE LAWYER AT IBM. So I find his string of protestations that he's not doing anything wrong to be so much dishonest bullshit.] Anyways, IBM hired some guy Gestetner, who really turned the IBM corporate culture around...from one which really pioneered the FUD and vendor lock-in techniques which are so infamously abused by MS today...to the good citizen corporation which we see today. Read Thomas Watson Jr.'s autobiography. Even before they were dragged into court, and convicted, people at IBM new they were doing wrong -- salesmen, for lack of a better term.. "cockblocked" sales from competing vendors, by claiming that whatever product the customer was about to buy from whoever, that IBM had a similar product in testing "right now" and would be released shortly.... and then sending the message back to engineering to get cracking and come up with SOMETHING so that the sales force wouldn't be exposed for the bald faced liars that they were. TW Jr. knew about it, and in fact, it was company policy to sell the client on the vaporware hardware, for no other reason than to starve the competition of income. His excuses in federal court were just as lame as Gates' excuses have been in these same courts.

If MS was smart, they would make a Linux version of Word that must be purchased just so they could take Linux distros to court for including things like OO. Make Linux distros stop including all this free software that is locking folk into Linux. :)

Fortunately, MS is contractually prohibited from selling any Unix or Unix-like OS. It has something to do with when they sold off Xenix. And at this point, for them to market a *nix-like OS would completely remove all airs of legitimacy from Windows as anything other than an overpriced platform for playing video games. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

Though I know we're going way OT - I was told that the most interesting thing coming out of brainshare (apart from Win2008 running in Xen) was that there are still many large companies running NetWare 3.12 servers, many with 1000+ days of uptime.

Oh please, 1000 days uptime? that's child's play for linux - root@ashpool:~> uptime 1:15pm up 1084 days 0:45, 1 user, load average: 3.59, 3.33, 3.29 root@ashpool:~> uname -a Linux ashpool 2.6.5-7.151-smp #1 SMP Fri Mar 18 11:31:21 UTC 2005 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux root@ashpool:~> Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith wrote:

Joe Sloan wrote:

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Kai Ponte wrote:

...

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Though I know we're going way OT - I was told that the most interesting thing coming out of brainshare (apart from Win2008 running in Xen) was that there are still many large companies running NetWare 3.12 servers, many with 1000+ days of uptime.

...

Oh please, 1000 days uptime? that's child's play for linux -

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root@ashpool:~> uptime 1:15pm up 1084 days 0:45, 1 user, load average: 3.59, 3.33, 3.29 root@ashpool:~> uname -a Linux ashpool 2.6.5-7.151-smp #1 SMP Fri Mar 18 11:31:21 UTC 2005 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux root@ashpool:~>

...

Joe

Remember NW3,x with affection... needed *NO* TLC ,.. probably the most secure server OS around for providing file storage and print services (when properly configured of course)... the only time the things went down was when the hardware died or the the admin (or cleaners :-)) pulled the plug on the server...

Linux does many more and much more complex things than NW3.x but NW3.x strength was (and is) its solid reliability and overall performance in the few things it did do. A direct comparison of NW3.x to Linux is probably not really valid...

Oh, I know netware was a rock solid OS, I was just being flip, and also rather impressed that this particular tired old server is still ticking. A few years back, the uptime on the linux boxes used to wrap around at 497 days, which startled me on at least one occasion, so it's good to see the uptime counter still intact nearing 1100 days - but yes, I've heard tales of the netware server walled off in a closet running for years after the fact. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

Now back to Earth.

Is it possible that for server relevant kernel updates are coming so seldom?

Which updates specifically? Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 02 April 2008 01:49:03 pm John Andersen wrote: ...

If I understand the gist of your question...

I think its possible that many servers, especially the more specialized ones don't need to apply kernel updates at all, or if so they need only a very few.

I know of many mission critical FAA servers (not Air Traffic Control related) were running a rather old version of Debian several years out of date. These thing sere located everywhere and only ssh and a cut down web server on them, and the only thing that forced an upgrade was the desire to burn periodic data to DVDs rather than CDroms.

I have one customer still running SuSE 9.1, And it only reboots when the UPS is exhausted.

Yes, that was basic question. So, long uptime is possible under certain conditions where one doesn't need to update kernel. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Tuesday 01 April 2008 08:19:15 pm Jason Bailey, Sun Advocate Webmaster

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...

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That's because Novell marketing sucks.

(That comes from a friend who attended brainshare and berated the marketing group directly.) Novell's marketing has ALWAYS been bad, and until they get some people like some of us here, who know how to "fight in the trenches," they'll still end up not being where they could be and should be!

Subscribe!!

...

...

IBM had that problem in the days of OS/2,

Yes - I spoke to the guys in Boca about it more than once. Never got anywhere though.

So did I, and I was a beta site for one of the contractors. ;)

...

Although I'm entering this conversation mid-stream, I agree with the Novell comment. Their marketing sucks. Sad, because their directory services are killer. NDS is and has always been superior to Microsoft's Active Directory. I can recall working with replication in my CNE courses a few years back, thinking "man, Novell can do directory services on Windows better than Microsoft can!"

Though I know we're going way OT - I was told that the most interesting thing coming out of brainshare (apart from Win2008 running in Xen) was that there are still many large companies running NetWare 3.12 servers, many with 1000+ days of uptime.

To be honest, I'm not surprised!! Further, I'll never belive that Win2008 would/will run that long without a "bust!!" MickySoft's code has always been put together with bailing wire and bubble gum. It still is and because of the way the write code, it always will be! Fred -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ciro Iriarte wrote:

2008/4/2, Fred A. Miller :

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skip...

To be honest, I'm not surprised!! Further, I'll never belive that Win2008 would/will run that long without a "bust!!" MickySoft's code has always been put together with bailing wire and bubble gum. It still is and because of the way the write code, it always will be!

Just being curious, have you ever seen some of their code?

No......it's the "way" they code....all done by "committee." Logic dictates that's why they have, in part anyway, bloated code and buggy code. Fred -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller wrote:

To be honest, I'm not surprised!! Further, I'll never belive that Win2008 would/will run that long without a "bust!!" MickySoft's code has always been put together with bailing wire and bubble gum. It still is and because of the way the write code, it always will be!

Fred

Of course, it's impossible, if you have to add some software. Just yesterday, I upgraded Seamonkey on my work computer (XP) and that required a reboot. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/4/2, John Andersen :

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 9:33 PM, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

there are still many large companies running NetWare 3.12 servers, many with 1000+ days of uptime.

3.12 was a killer version. From there it got weirder and weirder and eventually weirded its way into obscurity. They had to do it to get directory services in because that was the Microsoft selling point, but everything about netware 4.x and later was downhill. I jumped off the train and climbed on the linux bandwagon rather than go to netware 5.

With a big UPS at one of my customer sites, I did have a 3.12 installation run for over two years in spite of power failures. I only took it down to add more disk drives.

Novell marketing is and always was non-existent. They wrote the most dry ads and most leaden prose of any group I have ever seen. Its clear they neither understood their products nor had ever even talked to anyone who did. I always came away from one of their sales brochures with that "whatthefuckdidthatsay" feelings. I never understood any of their product line, or even why I would want to use it. It was like reading ads for left handed widgets written in Korean.

-- ----------JSA---------

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Yep, it's sad, here Novell lost against CA because of that while choosing an Identity Management solution for the company, I wasn't involved though... Ciro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Tuesday 01 April 2008 08:19:15 pm Jason Bailey, Sun Advocate Webmaster

...

...

...

That's because Novell marketing sucks.

(That comes from a friend who attended brainshare and berated the marketing group directly.) Novell's marketing has ALWAYS been bad, and until they get some people like some of us here, who know how to "fight in the trenches," they'll still end up not being where they could be and should be!

Subscribe!!

...

...

IBM had that problem in the days of OS/2,

Yes - I spoke to the guys in Boca about it more than once. Never got anywhere though.

...

Although I'm entering this conversation mid-stream, I agree with the Novell comment. Their marketing sucks. Sad, because their directory services are killer. NDS is and has always been superior to Microsoft's Active Directory. I can recall working with replication in my CNE courses a few years back, thinking "man, Novell can do directory services on Windows better than Microsoft can!"

Though I know we're going way OT - I was told that the most interesting thing coming out of brainshare (apart from Win2008 running in Xen) was that there are still many large companies running NetWare 3.12 servers, many with 1000+ days of uptime.

Well, it is running on basically a hacked Unix v6. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org