I just want to express my gratitude for the years of effort, attention to detail and quality that Hubert has delivered to SuSE and the Linux community as a whole. I hope that as he leaves SuSE that he will not travel far from the community he has helped to build. Herman
On Wednesday 09 November 2005 10:32 pm, Herman Knief wrote:
I just want to express my gratitude for the years of effort, attention to detail and quality that Hubert has delivered to SuSE and the Linux community as a whole. I hope that as he leaves SuSE that he will not travel far from the community he has helped to build.
Herman
SuSE Linux WITH the KDE is the best thing to come out of Germany since the printing press.
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Wednesday 09 November 2005 10:32 pm, Herman Knief wrote:
I just want to express my gratitude for the years of effort, attention to detail and quality that Hubert has delivered to SuSE and the Linux community as a whole. I hope that as he leaves SuSE that he will not travel far from the community he has helped to build.
Herman
SuSE Linux WITH the KDE is the best thing to come out of Germany since the printing press.
Which is why I chose SuSE as my Linux distro, and I just could NOT understand how the German government allowed the sale of a German company to a foreign company. I'll make a fearless prediction here which I have been meaning to pen for some days now and that is that Novell will go belly-up within 18 months and it will be either acquired by M$ or Sun - and in either case SuSE as we now know, and love, will disappear. If Hubert starts another company and continues with SuSE under another name (someone mention QLinux?) then that is what I will switch to. Cheers. -- In a period of great joy and pleasure you are comforted by the thought that tragedy is just around the corner.
On Thursday 10 November 2005 12:12 am, Basil Chupin wrote:
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Which is why I chose SuSE as my Linux distro, and I just could NOT understand how the German government allowed the sale of a German company to a foreign company.
That, in and of itself doesn't bother me. But, from what I gather, the German government doesn't foster technology the way the US government does. Who do you think bought thousands of licenses of BSOD NT and worked all the bugs out of it. Please don't tell me it wasn't the US government, because I was on the ground doing the installs.
I'll make a fearless prediction here which I have been meaning to pen for some days now and that is that Novell will go belly-up within 18 months and it will be either acquired by M$ or Sun - and in either case SuSE as we now know, and love, will disappear.
Perhaps Novell will change the name of the Linux line to LinuxWare. Oh yeh, I should add that I have a whole bunch of documentation for UnixWare around here somewhere.
If Hubert starts another company and continues with SuSE under another name (someone mention QLinux?) then that is what I will switch to.
It's a screwed up situation all around. I sure don't want to screw the rest of SuSE more than they already been screwed. I don't believe Novell execs quite understand what "free" in free software means. I'm not gonna slam the rank and file. They have some good people there. Steven
On Thursday 10 November 2005 12:38 am, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Thursday 10 November 2005 12:12 am, Basil Chupin wrote:
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Which is why I chose SuSE as my Linux distro, and I just could NOT understand how the German government allowed the sale of a German company to a foreign company.
That, in and of itself doesn't bother me. But, from what I gather, the German government doesn't foster technology the way the US government does. Who do you think bought thousands of licenses of BSOD NT and worked all the bugs out of it. Please don't tell me it wasn't the US government, because I was on the ground doing the installs.
I have to correct this statement. We did not work "all" the bugs out of it. Obviously. But we identified and reported some you wouldn't believe. Steven
On Thursday 10 November 2005 09:05 pm, James Knott wrote:
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
I have to correct this statement. We did not work "all" the bugs out of it. Obviously. But we identified and reported some you wouldn't believe.
Such as? How bout a UI for their PKI server without a sever to back it up? Oh, wait! They knew about that one. They just played dumb when I contacted them.
Steven
On November 10, 2005 00:38, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
It's a screwed up situation all around. I sure don't want to screw the rest of SuSE more than they already been screwed. I don't believe Novell execs quite understand what "free" in free software means. I'm not gonna slam the rank and file. They have some good people there.
Steven
Well I sincerely hope Novel doesn't screw this acquisition up like they did with WordPerfect and their linux version of it. I remember buying a copy of it and half the software was missing (like just the fonts of all things). The linux version of it worked so well they unloaded it real quick to some other company whom I can't remember the name of where I haven't heard a peep about it since. But seeing as how we have a Novel office in Ottawa, Canada, where I live, and have been fully warned not to work there as (I have heard) they treat their employees like a sweatshop operation. Seeing how key personnel from SuSE are leaving one by one, I think the writing is on the wall. The last time I saw key people leaving a company I worked for like this, it went belly up within a year. Certainly hope this doesn't happen with SuSE. I feel their product is outstanding and more than that extremely stable for what my needs are. It just seems a pity that whenever a company acquires another, it's always the old way is bad and the acquiring company's way is always the best and only way. I just certainly hope I am wrong. Phil
On Thursday 10 November 2005 1:09 am, Phil Savoie wrote: <extranous snipped>
But seeing as how we have a Novel office in Ottawa, Canada, where I live, and have been fully warned not to work there as (I have heard) they treat their employees like a sweatshop operation. Seeing how key personnel from SuSE are leaving one by one, I think the writing is on the wall.
The last time I saw key people leaving a company I worked for like this, it went belly up within a year.
Could be worse, you could work for MS. Read some of the hand picked "investigative reports" such as 'Bill Gates Hard Drive' speaking of a sweatshop phiew !!! IN a tightening economy the first thing companies seem to do to make Wall Street happy ( and keep their stock prices up ) is at least announce a lay off. Which of course sounds good to those * Street* folks thinking that the "fat" is being trimmed.. It isn't middle management usually is safe, upper management is Sacrosanct and can't be touched .. that leaves secretaries, and the grunts.. ( you know, those of the rest who work for their living ;-D ) Two or three of the upper middle management or top management would save the company the same dollar amount. Especially if you include those absurd Golden or platinum "parachutes" But the logic of not getting rid of those idiots is, they would have to hire someone else at about the same money .. and better the dog you know, I guess..
Certainly hope this doesn't happen with SuSE. I feel their product is outstanding and more than that extremely stable for what my needs are. It just seems a pity that whenever a company acquires another, it's always the old way is bad and the acquiring company's way is always the best and only way.
There is always the Hole card for Suse, that IBM is behind a lot of the machinations.. Still , one wishes Hubert Mantel all the best, and if his next company be as successful he will be happier and probably wealthier. After all Free Software seems to have done very well for our Lodestar .. Linus. I just wish he wasn't quite so close to the MS campus.. I am certain breathing the air there is dangerous to ones health.. ;-) -- j Morning, Evolution in action. only the grumpy will survive
On Friday 11 November 2005 04:55 pm, jfweber@bellsouth.net wrote:
Still , one wishes Hubert Mantel all the best, and if his next company be as successful he will be happier and probably wealthier.
I wonder what YaST would look like if it were redesigned from the ground up. where's BB these days? I'll buy. Steven
On Fri, Nov 11, 2005 at 07:06:48PM -0500, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Friday 11 November 2005 04:55 pm, jfweber@bellsouth.net wrote:
Still , one wishes Hubert Mantel all the best, and if his next company be as successful he will be happier and probably wealthier.
I wonder what YaST would look like if it were redesigned from the ground up. where's BB these days? I'll buy.
BB? Bodo Bauer? Working at SUSE... ;) Ciao, Marcus
On Friday 11 November 2005 04:55 pm, jfweber@bellsouth.net wrote:
IN a tightening economy the first thing companies seem to do to make Wall Street happy ( and keep their stock prices up ) is at least announce a lay off. Which of course sounds good to those * Street* folks thinking that the "fat" is being trimmed.. It isn't middle management usually is safe, upper management is Sacrosanct and can't be touched .. that leaves secretaries, and the grunts.. ( you know, those of the rest who work for their living ;-D )
This is the (new) American way.
Two or three of the upper middle management or top management would save the company the same dollar amount. Especially if you include those absurd Golden or platinum "parachutes" But the logic of not getting rid of those idiots is, they would have to hire someone else at about the same money
Why? I suspect it has more to do whit the "I could be next" fear. Greed before honour.
.. and better the dog you know, I guess..
In Japan they kill themselves when they fail. Steven
On Fri, 2005-11-11 at 19:16 -0500, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Friday 11 November 2005 04:55 pm, jfweber@bellsouth.net wrote:
IN a tightening economy the first thing companies seem to do to make Wall Street happy ( and keep their stock prices up ) is at least announce a lay off. Which of course sounds good to those * Street* folks thinking that the "fat" is being trimmed.. It isn't middle management usually is safe, upper management is Sacrosanct and can't be touched .. that leaves secretaries, and the grunts.. ( you know, those of the rest who work for their living ;-D )
This is the (new) American way.
Two or three of the upper middle management or top management would save the company the same dollar amount. Especially if you include those absurd Golden or platinum "parachutes" But the logic of not getting rid of those idiots is, they would have to hire someone else at about the same money
Why? I suspect it has more to do whit the "I could be next" fear. Greed before honour.
.. and better the dog you know, I guess..
In Japan they kill themselves when they fail.
In NA if your Delphi management you (try to) kill the workforce.
On Wednesday 09 November 2005 09:38 pm, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Thursday 10 November 2005 12:12 am, Basil Chupin wrote:
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
Which is why I chose SuSE as my Linux distro, and I just could NOT understand how the German government allowed the sale of a German company to a foreign company.
That, in and of itself doesn't bother me. But, from what I gather, the German government doesn't foster technology the way the US government does. Who do you think bought thousands of licenses of BSOD NT and worked all the bugs out of it. Please don't tell me it wasn't the US government, because I was on the ground doing the installs.
I'll make a fearless prediction here which I have been meaning to pen for some days now and that is that Novell will go belly-up within 18 months and it will be either acquired by M$ or Sun - and in either case SuSE as we now know, and love, will disappear.
Perhaps Novell will change the name of the Linux line to LinuxWare. Oh yeh, I should add that I have a whole bunch of documentation for UnixWare around here somewhere.
If Hubert starts another company and continues with SuSE under another name (someone mention QLinux?) then that is what I will switch to.
It's a screwed up situation all around. I sure don't want to screw the rest of SuSE more than they already been screwed. I don't believe Novell execs quite understand what "free" in free software means. I'm not gonna slam the rank and file. They have some good people there.
I was just talking to a few co-workers about this today. I had hoped Novell would've gotten their proverbial act together and learned the lessons after they royally fscked up with Netware - going from a fantastic product (3.x) with 80% market share to a horrid series of failures (4.x/5.x) and losing 75% of that market share to the technologically inferior NT. My prediction is that they'll sell SuSE to some operating system vendor who will then buy it up and eventually sue IBM and all other players for trademark and copyright infringement as their revenue model. Just watch! -- kai www.perfectreign.com linux - genuine windows replacement part
On Thursday 10 November 2005 01:11 am, Kai Ponte wrote:
I was just talking to a few co-workers about this today. I had hoped Novell would've gotten their proverbial act together and learned the lessons after they royally fscked up with Netware - going from a fantastic product (3.x) with 80% market share to a horrid series of failures (4.x/5.x) and losing 75% of that market share to the technologically inferior NT.
What Novell didn't have, that NT had was UI. NT provided enough functionality that the ease of use became the entire issue.
My prediction is that they'll sell SuSE to some operating system vendor who will then buy it up and eventually sue IBM and all other players for trademark and copyright infringement as their revenue model.
Just watch!
I can't imagine Novell got anything tangible out of the accusion other than, perhaps, some contracts. As for the most valuable resource at SuSE, they seem to be in a hurry to get rid of them. I'm real not happy about this situation. I am holding a whole lot back. Steven
On Thursday 10 November 2005 05:38, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
I don't believe Novell execs quite understand what "free" in free software means.
It's very sad that Dr Mantel has gone, and I also salute him for his work on SuSE down the years. However, the above sentence is not entirely fair - after all, Novell has opensourced all of SUSE for the first time, and started opensuse (it could be argued that this should have been done about 3 years ago, and Novell didn't own the company then). -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
On Thursday 10 November 2005 04:08 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
On Thursday 10 November 2005 05:38, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
I don't believe Novell execs quite understand what "free" in free software means.
It's very sad that Dr Mantel has gone, and I also salute him for his work on SuSE down the years. However, the above sentence is not entirely fair - after all, Novell has opensourced all of SUSE for the first time, and started opensuse (it could be argued that this should have been done about 3 years ago, and Novell didn't own the company then).
There was nothing wrong with SuSE retaining control of YaST. I said much about this in the past. The fact that there is free software does _not_ mean that all software must be free. SuSE provided the source for YaST, and were very careful about conforming to published and agreed upon industry standards. Steven
On Thursday 10 November 2005 09:12, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Thursday 10 November 2005 04:08 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
On Thursday 10 November 2005 05:38, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
I don't believe Novell execs quite understand what "free" in free software means.
It's very sad that Dr Mantel has gone, and I also salute him for his work on SuSE down the years. However, the above sentence is not entirely fair - after all, Novell has opensourced all of SUSE for the first time, and started opensuse (it could be argued that this should have been done about 3 years ago, and Novell didn't own the company then).
There was nothing wrong with SuSE retaining control of YaST. I said much about this in the past. The fact that there is free software does _not_ mean that all software must be free. SuSE provided the source for YaST, and were very careful about conforming to published and agreed upon industry standards.
I agree, but the OP was saying that Novell had no commitment to free software, which I don't think is borne out by the facts. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
On Thursday 10 November 2005 05:19 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:
On Thursday 10 November 2005 09:12, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
There was nothing wrong with SuSE retaining control of YaST. I said much about this in the past. The fact that there is free software does _not_ mean that all software must be free. SuSE provided the source for YaST, and were very careful about conforming to published and agreed upon industry standards.
I agree, but the OP was saying that Novell had no commitment to free software, which I don't think is borne out by the facts.
I am the OP, and I specifically said "Novell execs", and use the word "understanding" not commitment. I have not been following the OpenSuSE development, so I am not sure that YaST was GPLed, but Novell execs GPLing YaST does not demonstrate an understanding on their part of what the free in free software means. What I didn't mention in this posting from several years ago was the part about how I was watching Novell get their lunch eaten by Microsoft. That was really the motivation for my starting the thread. http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde&m=90349986314191&w=2 Steven
On Thursday 10 November 2005 10:29, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
I am the OP, and I specifically said "Novell execs", and use the word "understanding" not commitment. I have not been following the OpenSuSE development, so I am not sure that YaST was GPLed, but Novell execs GPLing YaST does not demonstrate an understanding on their part of what the free in free software means.
The "original post" is still not supported by anything concrete. SFAIK YaST is indeed GPLed, and it's difficult to know what "execs" (whoever *they* may be) know or don't know about free software, other than that the money markets want them to go faster rather than slower along this road. It is true that Novell has a poor trackrecord in acquisitions of this nature, but I think that creating FUD about the company's prospects is of no help to anyone, least of all us SUSE-users.
What I didn't mention in this posting from several years ago was the part about how I was watching Novell get their lunch eaten by Microsoft. That was really the motivation for my starting the thread. http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde&m=90349986314191&w=2
This is interesting, but of dubious value. The landscape has changed significantly since 1998, and while it is impossible to predict how things may go in the future, I think most people would agree that FLOSS is a much larger factor in the equation than it was then. I hope Novell will be able to capitalise on that, but even if it does not, it does not spell the end of FLOSS. This is going OT now, so email me offlist if you wish to continue to discuss. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
On 11/10/05, Kevin Donnelly
On Thursday 10 November 2005 05:38, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
I don't believe Novell execs quite understand what "free" in free software means.
It's very sad that Dr Mantel has gone, and I also salute him for his work on SuSE down the years. However, the above sentence is not entirely fair - after all, Novell has opensourced all of SUSE for the first time, and started opensuse (it could be argued that this should have been done about 3 years ago, and Novell didn't own the company then).
SUSE has always been open source.. even yast was open source. One always got the source for yast. What one couldn't do was take the source and modify it, then release it as one's own product. That was the restriction. It wasn't GPL'ed or licensed under the BSD license. I think what you mean is that Novell has started to give away .iso images instead of just giving the FTP install option. Those of old timers remember when SUSE use to make .iso images for download. They only stopped this practice around 7.2 which was in Y2k. So it was only a 4 year period where they didn't offer .iso images. They've ALWAYS been open source. I mean my God.. Hubert started SUSE 1 year after Linus released his code.. they've been at this a long time and have always been above board as far as being open source. I'm not digging on you.. just giving you and others the correct information. -Ben -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
On Thursday 10 November 2005 18:34, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
It's very sad that Dr Mantel has gone, and I also salute him for his work on SuSE down the years. However, the above sentence is not entirely fair - after all, Novell has opensourced all of SUSE for the first time, and started opensuse (it could be argued that this should have been done about 3 years ago, and Novell didn't own the company then).
SUSE has always been open source.. even yast was open source.
Yes, I should have said "Novell has GPLed all of SUSE" to be unambiguous. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
I've installed Kubuntu on some of my machines, to test out an
alternative. So far, I'm fairly pleased.
Now, why would I do this?
Watching Novell for the last couple of years has been almost as much
fun as watching SCO, and didn't require me to keep a lawyer on
retainer. :-)
First they but Ximian, and shortly after that SUSE. Ximian is well
known for it's desktop integration on GNOME, while SUSE is known as
the (my opinion) leader for KDE desktop linux.
Interesting combination.
Then, to my astonishment, they GPL'd YAST. I was pleased and
impressed. I perceived this as a commitment to OSS.
But this month has made me unsure if I want to stay. Novell is laying
off so many people, and key SUSE people are leaving, while key Ximian
people are staying.
I think SUSE may be sinking, and the decision to downgrade KDE to an
option is merely emblematic of much deeper issues, which I will not
pretend to understand, but they worry me.
In contrast, Ubuntu is getting increasingly excited about KDE, and
seems to have a stable professional developer community, as well as an
exploding volunteer community.
Sounds more tempting every day.
--andy
On 11/10/05, Kevin Donnelly
On Thursday 10 November 2005 18:34, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
It's very sad that Dr Mantel has gone, and I also salute him for his work on SuSE down the years. However, the above sentence is not entirely fair - after all, Novell has opensourced all of SUSE for the first time, and started opensuse (it could be argued that this should have been done about 3 years ago, and Novell didn't own the company then).
SUSE has always been open source.. even yast was open source.
Yes, I should have said "Novell has GPLed all of SUSE" to be unambiguous.
--
Pob hwyl / Best wishes
Kevin Donnelly
www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 11 November 2005 03:06, Andy Choens wrote:
I've installed Kubuntu on some of my machines, to test out an alternative. So far, I'm fairly pleased.
Interesting combination.
Then, to my astonishment, they GPL'd YAST. I was pleased and impressed. I perceived this as a commitment to OSS.
But this month has made me unsure if I want to stay. Novell is laying off so many people, and key SUSE people are leaving, while key Ximian people are staying.
Yup. I have some decidedly bad feelings about the recent bits of news concerning SuSE.
In contrast, Ubuntu is getting increasingly excited about KDE, and seems to have a stable professional developer community, as well as an exploding volunteer community.
I still prefer Debian, myself - and thanks to alioth, you can now get YaST for Debian. I've bought every version of SuSE since 6.2, but I think SuSE 10 may well be the last one I buy; and it might be time for me to switch my servers back to Debian. cheers, Gideon.
On Thursday 10 November 2005 07:06 pm, Andy Choens wrote:
I've installed Kubuntu on some of my machines, to test out an alternative. So far, I'm fairly pleased.
...
In contrast, Ubuntu is getting increasingly excited about KDE, and seems to have a stable professional developer community, as well as an exploding volunteer community.
Though I haven't tried KUbuntu, I've read somewere a few times that Mark S. is
using that more often now than Ubuntu.
On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 16:12 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Wednesday 09 November 2005 10:32 pm, Herman Knief wrote:
I just want to express my gratitude for the years of effort, attention to detail and quality that Hubert has delivered to SuSE and the Linux community as a whole. I hope that as he leaves SuSE that he will not travel far from the community he has helped to build.
Herman
SuSE Linux WITH the KDE is the best thing to come out of Germany since the printing press.
Which is why I chose SuSE as my Linux distro, and I just could NOT understand how the German government allowed the sale of a German company to a foreign company.
Daimler Benz and Chrysler Corporation of America ring a bell?
I'll make a fearless prediction here which I have been meaning to pen for some days now and that is that Novell will go belly-up within 18 months and it will be either acquired by M$ or Sun - and in either case SuSE as we now know, and love, will disappear.
If Hubert starts another company and continues with SuSE under another name (someone mention QLinux?) then that is what I will switch to.
I'll definitely give it a look. I was impressed by what SuSE had accomplished before being bought out, and I'm sure the same guiding spirit can top what I came to like. Mike
Mike, On Wednesday 09 November 2005 22:17, Mike McMullin wrote:
On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 16:12 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
...
Which is why I chose SuSE as my Linux distro, and I just could NOT understand how the German government allowed the sale of a German company to a foreign company.
Daimler Benz and Chrysler Corporation of America ring a bell?
Ummm... Daimler bought Chrysler, not the other way 'round. And in late 20th, early 21st century U.S.A., there's very little in the way of laws that limit or compel corporations. That would be unamerican, don't you know!
...
Mike
On Thursday 10 November 2005 07:17, Mike McMullin wrote:
Which is why I chose SuSE as my Linux distro, and I just could NOT understand how the German government allowed the sale of a German company to a foreign company.
Daimler Benz and Chrysler Corporation of America ring a bell?
It was originally called a merger. But several folks have called it a buy out. Not by Chrysler, but Daimler-Benz. Daimler had the money, and put it towards the Chrysler side. Take a look at the Crossfire. Lots of Mercedes parts in that one.. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 9.3 Kernel 2.6.11 KDE 3.4.0 Kmail 1.8 For Mondo/Mindi backup support go to http://www.mikenjane.net/~mike 4:06pm up 11 days 1:06, 4 users, load average: 2.14, 2.16, 2.26
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Wednesday 09 November 2005 10:32 pm, Herman Knief wrote:
I just want to express my gratitude for the years of effort, attention to detail and quality that Hubert has delivered to SuSE and the Linux community as a whole. I hope that as he leaves SuSE that he will not travel far from the community he has helped to build.
Herman
SuSE Linux WITH the KDE is the best thing to come out of Germany since the printing press.
And Staroffice and linuxtv and ........ etc., etc. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, licensed Private Pilot Retired IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
SuSE Linux WITH the KDE is the best thing to come out of Germany since the printing press.
What about St. Pauli http://www.stpauligirl.com/ ? or Nicole http://www.nicole-4-u.de/ ? Nicki http://www.stern.de/lifestyle/leute/?id=503002 ? Damon Register
participants (17)
-
Andy Choens -
Basil Chupin -
Ben Rosenberg -
Damon Register -
Gideon Hallett -
Herman Knief -
James Knott -
jfweber＠bellsouth.net -
Kai Ponte -
Kevin Donnelly -
Marcus Meissner -
mike -
Mike McMullin -
Phil Savoie -
Randall R Schulz -
Sid Boyce -
Steven T. Hatton