On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 18:31, Brad Bourn wrote:

There is such a button I thought

Doesn't it say in the CONFIRMATION email that you have to REPLY to confirm, or if you do NOTHING, you will NOT be subscribed.

So, if not subscribing in the first place isn't simple, I would qualify NOT replying to the CONFIRMATION *would* be simple, because my dog (actually, very well trained) can do it! (not reply that is)

B-)

I put people that don't know how to un-subscribe one notch above people that don't know how to reply to the list. There are a lot of new people that think they have to send a copy to the list as well as the OP or the OP will not see their reply. And can't figure out why the person they sent their reply to gets two copies. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please* "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge

Like this? Can always count on you for the "top post" gripe! hehehhe B-) On Tuesday 08 March 2005 05:51 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Ken Schneider [03-08-05 18:40]:

...

I put people that don't know how to un-subscribe one notch above people that don't know how to reply to the list. There are a lot of new people that think they have to send a copy to the list as well as the OP or the OP will not see their reply. And can't figure out why the person they sent their reply to gets two copies.

Might as well include those that make *no* effort to trim their quotes and reply before a question is asked (means top posting).

-- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery

Thanks The only thing more annoying than people using their own style (which isn't all that bad, if your used to personal choice), is people that force others to use their style or be flamed. That kind of close-minded thinking, I don't need. Happy to live in /dev/null for those folks. However, as it seems these people derive pleasure or at least temporarily feel better about themselves by putting someone on the other side of the style (posting) fence and throwing rocks at them. So when you pull the pin out and throw the rocks back, comments like this

Yes. Twit.

One more added to /dev/null that I no longer have to look at.

are like saying I'll take my rock and go home. YES, PLEASE DO! You can watch the rest of us through your glass walls. B-) On Wednesday 09 March 2005 08:46 am, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 10:06, Brad Bourn wrote:

...

Like this?

Can always count on you for the "top post" gripe!

hehehhe

B-)

Yes. Twit.

One more added to /dev/null that I no longer have to look at.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

* Only reply to the list please*

"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 10:01 am, columbo@wowway.com wrote:

Brad,

The only problem is that the convention on this list is not to top post. It is an implicit (and, yeah, sometimes very explicit) agreement among the list members so that the flow of the conversation moves easily from screen to brain. Coupled with proper 'trimming' it makes for a thread that is much easier to read and maneuver through, especially if the reader primarily uses the keyboard, as opposed to the mouse, for navigational purposes (as many on this list do).

I don't agree (obviously). Seems like the only people that comlain are the ones that need everyone to conform to them. This doesn't make it an "agreement". I tend to answer depending on the situation. This one, seemed to be better answered with this format. When I ask a quick, simple question, I don't want to see my post again, just the answer (top post please). And, if the answer takes so long I forget what I asked, I have the full quote below to reference. I can find just as many documents written to support both methods.

For example, if you are attempting to master karate it is a common tradition/convention to remove your shoes prior to entering the dojo. Those who do not remove their shoes are simply not given the courtesy or attention that those who follow the convention receive. Usually they would receive a request to remove their shoes and if they refused they would probably be expelled or, at the least, ignored. It's not a matter of 'personal choice'.

Depends on the thinking again. If someone believes in themselves (The karate instructor), and they see someone not conforming, this would mean, *newbie* or *new customer* and I would give them ~extra attention. Once, our relationship gets established, and have agreed on a set of 'rules'. it may then be considered disrespectful to behave differently than your word. If someone is closed minded, and needs everyone to conform to them to have them feel better, then I'm sure they would ignore this potential great customer to avoid having to be respectful or make any effort themselves (elitist?) Like this email, You obviously prefer bottom posting and trimming. I'm respecting you with this style of reply. You deserve it because your stating your *opinion*. Would you be so quick to respond to someone using their style?

On this list you have many Linux and Suse guru's who are intimately familiar with the inner beat of the kernel and this distribution. I would go out on a limb and state that nearly 100% of those experts find top posting annoying. I will also go out on a limb and state that the vast majority of those will 'PLONK' a list member who repeatedly ignores the conventions set up in this list. That would be a detriment to the list member who requires the assistance. S/he wouldn't receive any.

where are these conventions setup? I don't see my top-posted simple answers being rejected from the list. Only people like Patrick Shanahan seem to reply to a helpful post with, "thanks for the answer, but you used the wrong style". Hell, if I need help, I don't care what style someone wants to help me, I'll take it.

So, in my long winded way, what I'm trying to say is that YOU will be the one looking through the glass at the rest of us when it comes to receiving free and almost instantaneous help from someone well versed in the ways of Linux/Suse.

Hope this helps

how? bottom-posters have valid reasons for their style. top-posters can also have reasons. because I have taken the time to listen to your reasoning for bottom-posting, are you going to listen to mine? B-)

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 01:39 pm, Carlos E. R. wrote:

rfc1855, Netiquette Guidelines.

and in this doc it states that you must use bottom posted trim quoted reply's on suse-linux-e@suse.com?

...

I don't see my top-posted simple answers being rejected from the list.  Only people like Patrick Shanahan seem to reply to a helpful post with, "thanks for the answer, but you used the wrong style".  Hell, if I need help, I don't care what style someone wants to help me, I'll take it.

No, you don't see them. True, because many people dislike top-posting (I do) and will simply ignore those emails. They (we) might answer, and then we get cross at the top post response and forget the thread sooner.

No, I don't see them being rejected. In fact I see them more often than not answered by just as knowlegable top-posters, as well as tolerant bottom-posters. when people reply not provide an answer, or anything else constructive, but only to criticize style is when I speak my mind.

The thing is that Patrick speaks his mind. The rest, simply says nothing, and of those some act... ignoring those posters.

It has been my experience both relying on the open-source community and contributing to it for my living for the past 5 years since i was brought to the light, that it is easier to navigate search results in google to find what your looking for when people top-post and full quote. you can usually find the whole conversation in one place. It can be alot easier to navigate top-posted full-quoted threads in mail clients because they get sorted better with different conversations going on between the OP and the contributors. All you have to do is highlight the mail (with or without a mouse) and you see the next piece of the puzzle right there AT THE TOP.

Yes, I listen. But I can not accept it... it increases network and disk usage across many computers and servers, and increases the time I need to get the information I need to answer.

what do you mean? like I said, there is more information for email clients to sort threads with. It is easier to navigate because each new piece of information is always at the top. Bottom line is that middle-posting and extensive trimming is the worst. mixed styles is the next worst and both top posting and bottom posting *can* be both just as easy either top posting or bottom posting ~and~ full quoting is the best because it solves both problems I specifically run into a.) you find only one reply to a topic you want more information on in google b.) either top or bottom as long as ALL replies are the same can be just as easy to navigate, either above or below the extra (whole) conversation being justified by reason a takes up too much space/speed? give me a break! this is text! When it comes to mixing both together, top, bottom, middle, full trim, full quote, like when you get hits in google on a long thread, it is the top-posting and full quoting that make it easier to navigate and find what your looking for. With the open-source community getting bigger, and the average newbie to linux NOT being a newbie to computers in general, I personally think it would be like shooting my livelyhood (the open-source community) in the foot by being an elitist and griping to contributers about style. We should have way more newbie professional / ex - MS folks than seasoned vets (hopefully read:linux for the masses -- converts in droves) real soon. By taking such an annoyed attitude you set yourself up for conflict and isolation. This would be like a missionary rejecting converts in a forign (non english) country for not speaking English. Or a karate instructor ignoring a customer because they walked into the dojo with shoes on. I'd hate to see linux (or SuSE) end up like M$ because they can't think or accept any other way of thinking. Although I wouldn't expect you to downright steal a top posted reply and claim it as your own. Maybe more like SCO though, and sue mailing lists for not doing things your way anymore instead. B-)

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 03:39 pm, Brad Bourn wrote:

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 01:39 pm, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

rfc1855, Netiquette Guidelines.

and in this doc it states that you must use bottom posted trim quoted reply's on suse-linux-e@suse.com?

suse-linux-e@suse.com is a mailing list. The *convention* on mailing lists is to bottom post and trim quotes. No, it's not a rule, and you're free to break it. You then look like an idiot. As someone said just a few days ago, "When in Rome, do as Romans do". Most of the people on this list behave according to decades-old nettiquite rules. Therefore, when here, it's preferable to behave as everone else does - acting differently (top-posting) will lose you more than it will gain. The only reason to do so is if you're a stubborn moron. Feel free to be a stubborn moron, I suppose, but don't be surprised if you're treated as a stubborn moron. :) (presently, I'm leaning towards just "stubborn"). [...]

In fact I see them more often than not answered by just as knowlegable top-posters,

This is an oxymoron. The knowledgable people follow the list conventions. [...]

It has been my experience both relying on the open-source community and contributing to it for my living for the past 5 years since i was brought to the light, that it is easier to navigate search results in google to find what your looking for when people top-post and full quote. you can usually find the whole conversation in one place.

So, when reading, you prefer to start at the end of the conversation and read backwards? That is opposite of the convention used in much of the Western world. Would you also prefer to read right to left? I've found that, while making my living in the Open Source community for the last 10 years, it's easier to read bottom-quoted mesages on web archives. I've been doing it for twice as long, so my opinion is twice as important. So there. :) Regardless, breaking conventions in order to accommodate poorly-designed mail archives is just bad practice. There exist several quality mail archive systems that display a full thread above or below the message being read. I find that type of system combined with bottom-posted, trimmed replies to be more useful, as sometimes more than one person contributes to a thread, and therefore the whole thread will not be included in a single message even with bandwidth-wasting full quotes and/or top-posting. [...]

Bottom line is that middle-posting and extensive trimming is the worst.

Contextual quoting and in-line replying is occasionally very useful. Such as in this message (and your message to which I'm replying).

takes up too much space/speed? give me a break! this is text!

Everyone in the world has 1.5Mb uncapped downloads and 2GHz machines with 22" monitors and 1.5GB RAM, so why optimize anything? Oh, wait, lots of those "newbies" that are "so important" are also on modems, sometimes even in places where they have to pay per-minute charges. Oh, and the contraction for "you are" is "you're". "Your" means something else. HTH, --Danny, who doesn't understand why it's so difficult for some people to just follow the damned convention - bitching isn't gonna change anything

On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 10:46, Brad Bourn wrote:

When someone stands up to a stubborn moron, it will usually get them labeled as one.

...

...

In fact I see them more often than not answered by just as knowlegable top-posters,

It would take a little more knowledge to get past "only people like me are knowledgable". You'll get there.

...

...

It has been my experience both relying on the open-source community and contributing to it for my living for the past 5 years since i was brought to the light, that it is easier to navigate search results in google to find what your looking for when people top-post and full quote. you can usually find the whole conversation in one place.

So, when reading, you prefer to start at the end of the conversation and read backwards? That is opposite of the convention used in much of the Western world. Would you also prefer to read right to left? I've found that, while making my living in the Open Source community for the last 10 years, it's easier to read bottom-quoted mesages on web archives. I've been doing it for twice as long, so my opinion is twice as important. So there. :)

Your not really saying anything here. But I love the humor! ^^^^

should be you're meaning - you are

How does top posting and full quoting differ from trimmed middle/bottom quoting for reading from end to begining.

When you trim, you trim the beginning. So there isn't one. You HAVE to start from the middle or end and go backwards, only now to other messages instead of the one your in.

^^^^ again should be you're

...

Regardless, breaking conventions in order to accommodate poorly-designed mail archives is just bad practice. There exist several quality mail archive systems that display a full thread above or below the message being read. I find that type of system combined with bottom-posted, trimmed replies to be more useful, as sometimes more than one person contributes to a thread, and therefore the whole thread will not be included in a single message even with bandwidth-wasting full quotes and/or top-posting.

So you prefer your style because of the system you use. So do I.

I hate English! I'm the ferst to admit I ain't good at it!

...

B-), who doesn't understand why it is so difficult for some people not go out of their way to bitch and allow people to contribute.

Contribute all you want, only we would like you to please adhere to what has been the accepted practice on this list (for quite some time before you joined by the way) -not- what you want to be the accepted practice. This isn't Jeopardy where you give the answer first and the question second. A little courtesy to -all- of the members of the list goes a long way.

[Brad's post didn't attribute this quote of Danny's, so I added the attribution myself.] Danny Sauer wrote:

...

Regardless, breaking conventions in order to accommodate poorly-designed mail archives is just bad practice. There exist several quality mail archive systems that display a full thread above or below the message being read. I find that type of system combined with bottom-posted, trimmed replies to be more useful, as sometimes more than one person contributes to a thread, and therefore the whole thread will not be included in a single message even with bandwidth-wasting full quotes and/or top-posting.

On Thursday 10 March 2005 15:46, Brad Bourn wrote:

So you prefer your style because of the system you use.

I think that Danny's comment was about mail archives, e.g. those viewable using a web browser, which anybody can use, rather than, as I think you imply, his (wise) choice of mail client (same as yours!). That's irrelevant though ...

So do I.

The only important system is that of the conventions of the list (which have evolved, incidentally, to match the preferences and systems of its users, since time immemorial) I have a right hand drive car. I prefer to drive it on the left hand side of the road. What are the results if I decide to drive it on the left hand side of the road when in a territory which has another convention? -- Bill

On Thursday 10 March 2005 17:20, Brad Bourn wrote:

Same goes for the people that call me names and get all irate at me while I'm driving on the right side of the street because of the bumper sticker on my car that says, "driving in the left lane is better".

Well, the opposite of right is wrong. Ergo: brits drive on the wrong side of the road Could this thread die now please? It's time to eat kids, don't forget to wash up first

On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 11:18, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Thursday 10 March 2005 17:20, Brad Bourn wrote:

...

Same goes for the people that call me names and get all irate at me while I'm driving on the right side of the street because of the bumper sticker on my car that says, "driving in the left lane is better".

Well, the opposite of right is wrong. Ergo: brits drive on the wrong side of the road

Could this thread die now please? It's time to eat kids, don't forget to wash up first

Yes and judging from your timezone I would guess you are going for dinner where as I am going for lunch. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please* "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge

The Wednesday 2005-03-09 at 14:39 -0700, Brad Bourn wrote: ... skipped I will not comment on the skipped parts, because others have done for me. No need to add clutter :-)

...

Yes, I listen. But I can not accept it... it increases network and disk usage across many computers and servers, and increases the time I need to get the information I need to answer.

what do you mean? like I said, there is more information for email clients to sort threads with. It is easier to navigate because each new piece of information is always at the top.

Threading is done scanning for three headers, the email content is ignored: References: ... ... ... In-Reply-To: .... Message-Id: .... The "Message-Id" identifies, worldwide, the current message, and "In-Reply-To" identifies the previous message. As the "Message-Id" is guaranteed to be worldwide unique, the threading is exact and complete - provided there are no broken mailers in use, such as ms exchange. Including in the message the full previous message is superfluous, because every body has it, and increases resources usage. It has to be transmitted to all subscribers: and some, like me, use a modem. And some, again like me, pay per minute of usage (others do by kilobyte). It means money to me. Not much, but if everybody sends 10 kilobytes messages instead of 3 or 4, I notice it. It also means that archives get bigger with repeated information. Mine is quite big already (more than 600Mb for two years).

takes up too much space/speed? give me a break! this is text!

Yes. 10K transmit in about 2 or 3 seconds. It would be much worse if it were html...

When it comes to mixing both together, top, bottom, middle, full trim, full quote, like when you get hits in google on a long thread, it is the top-posting and full quoting that make it easier to navigate and find what your looking for.

Top posting means that the same search text is found several times, because it is repeated in each answer full quoting it. The same mail is found several times besides the original one. But I was not thinking of google, lists are older than google.

With the open-source community getting bigger, and the average newbie to linux NOT being a newbie to computers in general, I personally think it would be like shooting my livelyhood (the open-source community) in the foot by being an elitist and griping to contributers about style. We should have way more newbie professional / ex - MS folks than seasoned vets (hopefully read:linux for the masses -- converts in droves) real soon. By taking such an annoyed attitude you set yourself up for conflict and isolation.

¡Good! :-P Let ms-ish people adapt, not linux-ish adapt ;-) But no, I used this style of mailing long before I met linux. It started this way, before the explosion of internet (and even outside internet). Top posting really caught in people from the business world that used software from M$, which defaulted to top-posting. I don't object to business using topposting if they like, and I answer top-post my self to them. But notice that in corporations, mail usually has a huge volume traffic, with many mails bigger that 50 or 100 kilobytes. After three or four resends, size increases 3-fold... meaning that a single server (one that I'm thinking specially) hardly copes with more than a very few hundred simultaneous users. They have to buy bigger servers and more licenses. Good for business - other business, not theirs! -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 02:10 pm, columbo@wowway.com wrote:

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 14:01, Brad Bourn wrote:

...

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 10:01 am, columbo@wowway.com wrote:

...

Brad,

The only problem is that the convention on this list is not to top post. It is an implicit (and, yeah, sometimes very explicit) agreement among the list members so that the flow of the conversation moves easily from screen to brain.

::Snip::

I don't agree (obviously). Seems like the only people that comlain are the ones that need everyone to conform to them. This doesn't make it an "agreement".

I've been a list member, on and off, long enough to know that the practice of top-posting is discouraged for the reasons I stated. Failure to follow the convention does affect the quantity/quality of any responses you receive. And that is what this list is all about. Asking a question and, maybe, getting a helpful response. It's mainly about exchanging information about systems and methods of operation. It's not a dedicated 'newbie' list and it isn't about advocacy concerning any subject matter including top posting.

no, its not. Its like you state yourself below. I'll comment then.

The day to day output of this list makes this kind of topic a distraction. Especially since it has been dealt with in numerous postings in the past.

exactly my point. Every time I get into this conversation, it's because someone went out of their way to specifically and only to "tisk tisk" me. I also have been a list member, on and off, long enough to know that this does only what you state.

Check out the archives (I've determined from your previous posts that you know how to google through the archives) to determine how list members responded to top posting in the past and also note the GENERAL IMPLICIT AGREEMENT of the ACCEPTANCE AND CONVENTION of bottom posting with trimming. It's an implicit agreement because that is the way it is done in the vast majority of posts. Someone really shouldn't join the list and decide that their personal opinion should override an ESTABLISHED convention.

why don't you check out the archives. you don't see any of my posts being only to tisk someone for bottom posting. You do see me stick up for myself when someone does it to me. Hell just search for Patrick and My name. If you look at those docs, there *is* a way to follow the spirit with top-posting for the same reasons stated for bottom.

http://lists.suse.com/archive/suse-linux-e/

...

I can find just as many documents written to support both methods.

Ok, I challenge you on this statement. I quickly googled the subject and found an astonishing imbalance of top to bottom posting support. You're invited to send me your research results offlist.

This is what I meant. If you search for reasonable arguments for either opinion you will find the same results either way. hmm, like you don't find more reasons for top than bottom. all reasons I've found or experienced can be equally argued both ways. even if your implying top to mean both top and full quoting (which is maybe two different things) e.g. space top = can save because you can eliminate previous messages, no need to keep past with current copy at hand bottom = (trimming) less in each message with more messages readability top = all one direction starting from top bottom = all one direction starting from bottom

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&newwindow=1&safe=off& q=top+posting&btnG=Search

...

...

For example, if you are attempting to master karate it is a common tradition/convention to remove your shoes prior to entering the dojo.

::snip, snip::

Depends on the thinking again. If someone believes in themselves (The karate instructor), and they see someone not conforming, this would mean, *newbie* or *new customer* and I would give them ~extra attention.

I disagree totally. But the point is that the 'newbie' must take responsiblity to learn the basic conventions concerning any endeavor s/he pursues. That is common sense. Not taking personal responsibility, according to many Sensei with whom I've dealt, is a major sign of disrespect.

I take responsibility, again, search the archives. Every time I've argued my points (because someone went out of their way to "tisk tisk" me) to the bottom poster cops, I do it bottom posted quoted.

...

If someone is closed minded, and needs everyone to conform to them to have them feel better, then I'm sure they would ignore this potential great customer to avoid having to be respectful or make any effort themselves (elitist?)

There are no customers on this list! Not in the sense that you're

There ARE customers on this list in the sense that I'm implying. I am one of them.

implying. This list consists of a large group of people who are pooling their knowledge and expertise for the growth and betterment of the general Linux/Suse community of users. This kind of advocacy

I thought you said (from above) <quote>

Asking a question and, maybe, getting a helpful response. It's mainly about exchanging information about systems and methods of operation. It's not a dedicated 'newbie' list and it isn't about advocacy concerning any subject matter including top posting. </quote>

That it wasn't about growth(customers) or advocacy ("betterment of the general Linux/Suse community of users). Well, at any rate, I agree with you. That IS my point (the whole reason I'm wasting this space and time).

dissuades many from participating because the have neither the time nor inclination to deal with this kind of BS. I wouldn't be surprised if you and I and this thread have already been 'PLONKED' and denied in many readers.

...

Like this email, You obviously prefer bottom posting and trimming. I'm respecting you with this style of reply. You deserve it because your stating your *opinion*.

I post and respond this way because it is painfully obvious to me (archives) that this is the preferred method within this particular list. And I am a respecter of people, whether I agree with their particular position or not.

Again, I agree and this is my point. Why go through the effort to "tisk tisk" me.

...

Would you be so quick to respond to someone using their style?

I do so daily within my corporate email system. That is the established mode prevalent within my company. I'm not crazy about it especially when an email has a long history which mangles the content. But I comply because that is the mode of operation within that particular group.

So do I comply with the few bottom poster cops that go out of their way to be disruptful, or do I do the best I can to all the people involved the best way I know how. I choose to be respectful.

...

...

On this list you have many Linux and Suse guru's who are intimately familiar with the inner beat of the kernel and this distribution. I would go out on a limb and state that nearly 100% of those experts find top posting annoying.

::Snip::

where are these conventions setup? I don't see my top-posted simple answers being rejected from the list.

The convention is set up in the history of the list (archives) from which anyone should be able to grasp the general consensus.

...

...

Hope this helps

how? bottom-posters have valid reasons for their style. top-posters can also have reasons. because I have taken the time to listen to your reasoning for bottom-posting, are you going to listen to mine?

Listen Brad, just like in real life, you do what you think is best and you live with the consequences. C'est la vie!

exactly B-)

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 08:43 pm, columbo@wowway.com wrote:

And that is the crux of the matter. Irrespective of the styles that you point out above, the convention on THIS list is and always has been to quote, trim and reply. That is the method that most everyone who has spent time on this list are accustomed. And it is not a bad or overbearing convention.

This is about the best I have heard it put yet. This seems perfectly reasonable and valid to me. I'll leave it at that.

You're not breathing a welcome breathe of fresh air into the list.....actually, it's stale and rancid based upon the discussions that have occurred in the past.

And I agree. That is why when I am trying to help someone (OP) and someone else chimes in just to start breathing this rancid stale air, I stick up for myself.

The issue isn't about you. It's about top-posting in this list and members pointing out the convention to which the regular posters have become accustomed. Rather than taking it as a personal affront, most people simply acknowledge it and politely abide by the list convention.

When someone goes out of their way to "tisk tisk" me because of the format I chose to contribute my help to the OP, It is about me. I haven't had any OP yet reply to my top posted simple answer with "Please don't help me if your not going to format what I need the way I want"

Eh? And to whom on this list are you a customer?

Are you kidding?

I won't accuse you of twisting the meaning of what I was typing but growth does not imply customer growth. Rather a personal growth relative to understanding and using Linux/Suse and the satisfaction and productivity derived from that growth. And the betterment of the general community of users is a foregone conclusion due to the fact that this list is not for debating the pros and cons of this distro to that disto. It is dedicated to Linux/Suse alone. It is focused on that subject matter and the community profits from its activity.

Don't they mean the same thing? Doesn't one help the other?

...

...

I post and respond this way because it is painfully obvious to me (archives) that this is the preferred method within this particular list. And I am a respecter of people, whether I agree with their particular position or not.

Again, I agree and this is my point. Why go through the effort to "tisk tisk" me.

::mental note - don't 'tisk tisk' Brad, otherwise he arches his back and

spits::

LOL

...

I choose to be respectful.

How do YOU define respectful?

Probably the best is "do unto others...." B-)

On Wed, 2005-03-09 at 22:59, Philipp Thomas wrote:

[I know I'll regret that I swallowed the bait]

Brad Bourn [Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:01:15 -0700]:

Who has been committed to /dev/null.

...

top-posters can also have reasons.

And I have my right to commit them to /dev/null as well.

It's common netiquette that counts. But seems it's not that common anymore. I know of some people that simply left suse-linux-e because the style got so worse.

Philipp

It is all about netiquette and courtesy neither of which I believe Brad has at he has not shown it on this list. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please* "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge

Who has been committed to /dev/null.

I'm sure quite a few have so far.

And I have my right to commit them to /dev/null as well.

As you should

It is all about netiquette and courtesy neither of which I believe Brad has at he has not shown it on this list.

You are misinformed. I challenge you to show me how I have NOT shown it on this list. How bout this entire thread, (except for the message that started it). B-)

On Wednesday March 9 2005 11:01 am, Brad Bourn wrote:

On Wednesday 09 March 2005 10:01 am, columbo@wowway.com wrote:

...

Brad,

I don't agree (obviously). Seems like the only people that comlain are the ones that need everyone to conform to them. This doesn't make it an "agreement".

Brad, it takes one to know one.

how? bottom-posters have valid reasons for their style. top-posters can also have reasons. because I have taken the time to listen to your reasoning for bottom-posting, are you going to listen to mine?

I read it. Your beating a dead horse. Bye. Rich -- Rich Matson Reno, Nv. USA

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:22:41 -0700, Brad Bourn wrote:

people that force others to use their style

-- A: Maybe because some people are too annoyed by top-posting. Q: Why do I not get an answer to my question(s)? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?