On 2022-05-28 21:15, Per Jessen wrote:

Dave Howorth wrote:

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On Sat, 28 May 2022 18:42:33 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

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Specifically wrt SMS, in my business we have been using it for 15+ years for sending critical system alerts. Apart from having to change the setup, if I can post secure messages to Telegram/Discord/Matrix from the command line (from a script), I might have a look. (provided those services are as reliable as the telcos).

Dunno, the firt hit for whatsapp cli was https://github.com/normen/whatscli and the first for telegram cli was https://github.com/vysheng/tg

I know nothing about either and I expect there are lots of alternatives ....

Hehe, I expect so too, but I don't have a business case for changing over to what _might_ be less secure and less reliable.

I'm not arguing either way, I'm only saying SMS is sufficient for me, and somewhat "critical" to my business. I guess I could have changed over to <whatever>, but I would be dependent on everybody else using <whatever> too - I guess?

Last week, an electrician came to fix something or other in the remote reading setup for our meters. For the umpteenth time. He left some tools here, so because he had called me from his mobile, I was able to send him a photo and a text, "feel free to pick up whenever, the door is open".

I guess I could have done the same on Telegram/Discord/Matrix/whatever, but would it have worked?

In Spain we use Whatsapp for that. It is assumed that every business/workman has it. In fact, most people would refuse to send a photo over SMS because "it is expensive". I have visitors from Canada now, and they are unable to get images on SMS sent from home. Data roaming is, of course, disabled, as it is expensive for them. Very expensive, actually. Even activating a local SIM (dual SIM phone) do those SMS images download. Just 15 KB stuck for days. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

LOL its it's a read. On May-30-2022 01:56AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2022-05-28 21:15, Per Jessen wrote:

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Last week, an electrician came to fix something or other in the remote reading setup for our meters. For the umpteenth time. He left some tools here, so because he had called me from his mobile, I was able to send him a photo and a text, "feel free to pick up whenever, the door is open".

I guess I could have done the same on Telegram/Discord/Matrix/whatever, but would it have worked? In Spain we use Whatsapp for that. It is assumed that every business/workman has it. Many people won't touch Facebork with a barge pole and whatsapp is in fact forbidden in some organisations. In Switzerland, you will find e.g. Threema instead. The Swiss Army has forbidden the use of Whatsapp. Like the Swiss police, they have switched to Threema.

For me, SMS is simply a safe fallback.

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In fact, most people would refuse to send a photo over SMS because "it is expensive". Here it is part of my subscription.

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I have visitors from Canada now, and they are unable to get images on SMS sent from home. Data roaming is, of course, disabled, as it is expensive for them. Very expensive, actually. Also moving towards off-topic :-) - my current subscription includes a monthly amount of roaming data, but prior to that, I would just buy a roaming package, they were quite reasonable ISTR.

Lukáš Krejza wrote:

Dne sobota 28. května 2022 23:13:25 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

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In Spain we use Whatsapp for that. It is assumed that every business/workman has it.

In fact, most people would refuse to send a photo over SMS because "it is expensive".

I have visitors from Canada now, and they are unable to get images on SMS sent from home. Data roaming is, of course, disabled, as it is expensive for them. Very expensive, actually. Even activating a local SIM (dual SIM phone) do those SMS images download. Just 15 KB stuck for days.

Isn't that MMS? That's even more expensive here than SMS. I am not aware that SMS can send anything more than 160 (?) characters of text.

Yes, it is maximum 160 per SMS, but longer texts are sent as multiple SMS'es, and these are then combined on the receiving end. It's intersting to compare - years ago, I just had the cheapest monthly subscription, without data because I never used it. It meant paying per SMS and MMS, but it still worked out cheaper than the next subscription. At some point I decided I did want to include data too, later on also when roaming, and that meant all SMS and MMS were free, as well as all calls in Switzerland and to Swiss mobiles. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.1°C)

* Carlos E. R. [06-01-22 17:01]:

On 2022-06-01 19:06, Per Jessen wrote:

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Lukáš Krejza wrote:

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Dne sobota 28. května 2022 23:13:25 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

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In Spain we use Whatsapp for that. It is assumed that every business/workman has it.

In fact, most people would refuse to send a photo over SMS because "it is expensive".

I have visitors from Canada now, and they are unable to get images on SMS sent from home. Data roaming is, of course, disabled, as it is expensive for them. Very expensive, actually. Even activating a local SIM (dual SIM phone) do those SMS images download. Just 15 KB stuck for days.

Isn't that MMS? That's even more expensive here than SMS. I am not aware that SMS can send anything more than 160 (?) characters of text.

Yes, it is maximum 160 per SMS, but longer texts are sent as multiple SMS'es, and these are then combined on the receiving end.

It's intersting to compare - years ago, I just had the cheapest monthly subscription, without data because I never used it. It meant paying per SMS and MMS, but it still worked out cheaper than the next subscription. At some point I decided I did want to include data too, later on also when roaming, and that meant all SMS and MMS were free, as well as all calls in Switzerland and to Swiss mobiles.

That's simply because your telecom company does it that way. Here, even with unlimited data, SMS are free, and MMS have a significant cost.

Whatever they do, is a commercial decision by the providers, not based on technical reasons.

so you propose that due to the "commercial decision by the providers" where you subscribe, the rest of the world should not utilize sms/mms that are "free" or of very low cost to them. your argument has merit but only where you subscribe, not here. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

On 2022-06-01 23:34, James Knott wrote:

On 2022-06-01 5:05 p.m., Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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That's simply because your telecom company does it that way. Here, even with unlimited data, SMS are free, and MMS have a significant cost.

Whatever they do, is a commercial decision by the providers, not based on technical reasons. so you propose that due to the "commercial decision by the providers" where you subscribe, the rest of the world should not utilize sms/mms that are "free" or of very low cost to them.

your argument has merit but only where you subscribe, not here.

FWIW, I'm in Canada and have unlimited data, though throttled after 15 GB and "Unlimited Canada-wide Sent & Received Text, Picture & Video Messages".  I also have unlimited Canada-wide calling.

These days, a lot of these services have such a low incremental cost there's no point in charging for them.

That's true, but... Example. I have now visitors from Canada that were sent text messages with tiny graphical content, so probably MMS, and they can't read them over here. SMS do arrive, MMS don't. Also, if they allow "data roaming", they are charged several dollars a day. Actually, some phones actually disable foreign roaming. I forgot the name of the involved provider, maybe Videotron :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

On 2022-06-01 23:05, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. <> [06-01-22 17:01]:

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On 2022-06-01 19:06, Per Jessen wrote:

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Lukáš Krejza wrote:

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Dne sobota 28. května 2022 23:13:25 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

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In Spain we use Whatsapp for that. It is assumed that every business/workman has it.

In fact, most people would refuse to send a photo over SMS because "it is expensive".

I have visitors from Canada now, and they are unable to get images on SMS sent from home. Data roaming is, of course, disabled, as it is expensive for them. Very expensive, actually. Even activating a local SIM (dual SIM phone) do those SMS images download. Just 15 KB stuck for days.

Isn't that MMS? That's even more expensive here than SMS. I am not aware that SMS can send anything more than 160 (?) characters of text.

Yes, it is maximum 160 per SMS, but longer texts are sent as multiple SMS'es, and these are then combined on the receiving end.

It's intersting to compare - years ago, I just had the cheapest monthly subscription, without data because I never used it. It meant paying per SMS and MMS, but it still worked out cheaper than the next subscription. At some point I decided I did want to include data too, later on also when roaming, and that meant all SMS and MMS were free, as well as all calls in Switzerland and to Swiss mobiles.

That's simply because your telecom company does it that way. Here, even with unlimited data, SMS are free, and MMS have a significant cost.

Whatever they do, is a commercial decision by the providers, not based on technical reasons.

so you propose that due to the "commercial decision by the providers" where you subscribe, the rest of the world should not utilize sms/mms that are "free" or of very low cost to them.

your argument has merit but only where you subscribe, not here.

No, I did not say that. You invented it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

On 2022-06-02 00:30, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. <> [06-01-22 18:11]:

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On 2022-06-01 23:05, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Carlos E. R. <> [06-01-22 17:01]:

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On 2022-06-01 19:06, Per Jessen wrote:

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Lukáš Krejza wrote:

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Dne sobota 28. května 2022 23:13:25 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a): > > In Spain we use Whatsapp for that. It is assumed that every > business/workman has it. > > In fact, most people would refuse to send a photo over SMS because > "it is expensive". > > I have visitors from Canada now, and they are unable to get images on > SMS sent from home. Data roaming is, of course, disabled, as it is > expensive for them. Very expensive, actually. Even activating a local > SIM (dual SIM phone) do those SMS images download. Just 15 KB stuck > for days.

Isn't that MMS? That's even more expensive here than SMS. I am not aware that SMS can send anything more than 160 (?) characters of text.

Yes, it is maximum 160 per SMS, but longer texts are sent as multiple SMS'es, and these are then combined on the receiving end.

It's intersting to compare - years ago, I just had the cheapest monthly subscription, without data because I never used it. It meant paying per SMS and MMS, but it still worked out cheaper than the next subscription. At some point I decided I did want to include data too, later on also when roaming, and that meant all SMS and MMS were free, as well as all calls in Switzerland and to Swiss mobiles.

That's simply because your telecom company does it that way. Here, even with unlimited data, SMS are free, and MMS have a significant cost.

Whatever they do, is a commercial decision by the providers, not based on technical reasons.

so you propose that due to the "commercial decision by the providers" where you subscribe, the rest of the world should not utilize sms/mms that are "free" or of very low cost to them.

your argument has merit but only where you subscribe, not here.

No, I did not say that. You invented it.

odd, what you read. I quote your statement:

<quote-Carlos> That's simply because your telecom company does it that way. Here, even with unlimited data, SMS are free, and MMS have a significant cost.

Whatever they do, is a commercial decision by the providers, not based on technical reasons. </quote-Carlos>

did you *not* say that?

I did not say what you say I did. I did not say "the rest of the world should not utilize sms/mms that are "free" or of very low cost to them." -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

On 2022-06-02 21:41, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. [06-02-22 15:30]:

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On 2022-06-02 00:30, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Carlos E. R. <> [06-01-22 18:11]:

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On 2022-06-01 23:05, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Carlos E. R. <> [06-01-22 17:01]:

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On 2022-06-01 19:06, Per Jessen wrote: > Lukáš Krejza wrote: >> Dne sobota 28. května 2022 23:13:25 CEST, Carlos E. R. napsal(a): >>> >>> In Spain we use Whatsapp for that. It is assumed that every >>> business/workman has it. >>> >>> In fact, most people would refuse to send a photo over SMS because >>> "it is expensive". >>> >>> I have visitors from Canada now, and they are unable to get images on >>> SMS sent from home. Data roaming is, of course, disabled, as it is >>> expensive for them. Very expensive, actually. Even activating a local >>> SIM (dual SIM phone) do those SMS images download. Just 15 KB stuck >>> for days. >> >> Isn't that MMS? That's even more expensive here than SMS. I am not >> aware that SMS can send anything more than 160 (?) characters of text. > > Yes, it is maximum 160 per SMS, but longer texts are sent as multiple > SMS'es, and these are then combined on the receiving end. > > It's intersting to compare - years ago, I just had the cheapest monthly > subscription, without data because I never used it. It meant paying > per SMS and MMS, but it still worked out cheaper than the next > subscription. At some point I decided I did want to include data too, > later on also when roaming, and that meant all SMS and MMS were free, > as well as all calls in Switzerland and to Swiss mobiles.

That's simply because your telecom company does it that way. Here, even with unlimited data, SMS are free, and MMS have a significant cost.

Whatever they do, is a commercial decision by the providers, not based on technical reasons.

so you propose that due to the "commercial decision by the providers" where you subscribe, the rest of the world should not utilize sms/mms that are "free" or of very low cost to them.

your argument has merit but only where you subscribe, not here.

No, I did not say that. You invented it.

odd, what you read. I quote your statement:

<quote-Carlos> That's simply because your telecom company does it that way. Here, even with unlimited data, SMS are free, and MMS have a significant cost.

Whatever they do, is a commercial decision by the providers, not based on technical reasons. </quote-Carlos>

did you *not* say that?

I did not say what you say I did. I did not say "the rest of the world should not utilize sms/mms that are "free" or of very low cost to them."

so "what" are you saying?

your "argument" appears to be against using sms/mms, but I have no reason to not utilize them. if you are *only* arguing that you will not, you should make that clear and drop the matter because your conditions do not dictate what others (you can read that as the "rest of the world", or not) can and will do.

No, I only say that there are things to be aware when using SMS/MMS/RCS, that it is not as _universal_ as it may seem. What you decide to use is up to you, but you may not be able to communicate (bidirectionally) everywhere or with all people. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. [06-11-22 15:57]:

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No, I only say that there are things to be aware when using SMS/MMS/RCS, that it is not as _universal_ as it may seem. What you decide to use is up to you, but you may not be able to communicate (bidirectionally) everywhere or with all people.

which does not seem to be a problem here, but you seem to see problems where you have experience, that do not seem to exist in other places.

poluted water.

Which appear to inhibit abstraction. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.1°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland.

On 2022-06-11 22:44, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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No, I only say that there are things to be aware when using SMS/MMS/RCS, that it is not as _universal_ as it may seem.

I think it is about 99% as universal as it seems. For the last 1% ....

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What you decide to use is up to you, but you may not be able to communicate (bidirectionally) everywhere or with all people.

Ah, which only applies to whatsopp, telegram, viber, threema etcetera. Everyone has SMS.

Everybody can not communicate with SMS. That's my point. You keep denying it. Not fucking water. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

On 2022-06-04 18:47, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2022-06-01 19:06, Per Jessen wrote:

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It's intersting to compare - years ago, I just had the cheapest monthly subscription, without data because I never used it. It meant paying per SMS and MMS, but it still worked out cheaper than the next subscription. At some point I decided I did want to include data too, later on also when roaming, and that meant all SMS and MMS were free, as well as all calls in Switzerland and to Swiss mobiles.

That's simply because your telecom company does it that way.

That is obvious isn't it?

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Here, even with unlimited data, SMS are free, and MMS have a significant cost.

That's simply because your telecom company does it that way.

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Whatever they do, is a commercial decision by the providers, not based on technical reasons.

Yes, it certainly is.

Which means, that you can not take as granted, universally, that everybody can reply to you on SMS/MMS/RCS. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2022-06-01 18:16, Lukáš Krejza wrote:

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Dne sobota 28. května 2022 18:42:33 CEST, Per Jessen napsal(a):

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jdd@dodin.org wrote:

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Le 28/05/2022 à 17:54, Patrick Shanahan a écrit :

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nothing is free (of charge) but hidden within (THE plan). but yes, sms does not incur *additional* charges on most accounts now, but did in the past.

still do :-(

Not for about ten years. (in my case).

Here (Czech Republic), one SMS costs about 0.04 EUR and more.

Here (Spain) it can cost up to 15 euro cents, on a plain prepaid SIM, or a cheap contract.

Same here - that is what we pay for the SMS sent from the monitoring system. It has the cheapest subscription possible.

The caveat is that being a prepaid SIM I don't know who they charge those 10 cents to.

To the balance of the account associated with that SIM. Same setup we use. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (28.0°C)

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2022-06-04 18:44, Per Jessen wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2022-06-01 18:16, Lukáš Krejza wrote:

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Dne sobota 28. května 2022 18:42:33 CEST, Per Jessen napsal(a):

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jdd@dodin.org wrote:

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Le 28/05/2022 à 17:54, Patrick Shanahan a écrit : > nothing is free (of charge) but hidden within (THE plan). but > yes, sms does not incur *additional* charges on most accounts > now, but did in the past.

still do :-(

Not for about ten years. (in my case).

Here (Czech Republic), one SMS costs about 0.04 EUR and more.

Here (Spain) it can cost up to 15 euro cents, on a plain prepaid SIM, or a cheap contract.

Same here - that is what we pay for the SMS sent from the monitoring system. It has the cheapest subscription possible.

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The caveat is that being a prepaid SIM I don't know who they charge those 10 cents to.

To the balance of the account associated with that SIM. Same setup we use.

It is a DATA only SIM. No phone calls, no SMS included. And it is prepaid, no way for them to charge extra.

May your prepaid subscriptions work slightly differently. The one we use (in the datacentre) has an account balance associated with it. Unless it is paid into before use (pre-paid :-) ), there are no services available. You top up the account by creditcard payment via a website. Anyway, it's really way off-topic. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.0°C)