No offense to anyone intended, but can we stop the price discussions. Either buy or do not buy..but please keep this crap off the list. Send an email to feedback@suse.de if the price or what you get for the price is not to your liking. -- Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org ----- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin
Hi Ben,
No offense to anyone intended, but can we stop the price discussions. Either buy or do not buy..but please keep this crap off the list. Send an email to feedback@suse.de if the price or what you get for the price is not to your liking.
I've tried that. :-) The boxed retail set is priced to my (now adjusted) liking, but the upgrade (which makes more sense since I don't use the manuals all that often) is definately not priced to my liking... -Tim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks tbutler@uninetsolutions.com ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm Free/Open Source Web Tools: http://www.uninetsolutions.com Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com ============== "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ==============
On Wednesday 03 October 2001 8:03 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
No offense to anyone intended, but can we stop the price discussions. Either buy or do not buy..but please keep this crap off the list. Send an email to feedback@suse.de if the price or what you get for the price is not to your liking.
I share your sentiment. Tim, I think you need a better understanding of Linux, Open Source, and how the distributions (SuSE included) made it all possible. Read "Rebel Code" by Glyn Moody before you start your ranting again. M -- Martin Webster <mwebster@ntlworld.com> Registered Linux User #230322 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/spider-monkey/
Hi Martin,
I think you need a better understanding of Linux, Open Source, and how the distributions (SuSE included) made it all possible. Read "Rebel Code" by Glyn Moody before you start your ranting again.
Not to be argumentative, but I would say I have at least an average understanding of open source and Linux "made it all possible" as you put it (I've been in the Linux community for over three years, and the SuSE community for over two years). My argument, as I try to emphasize is not that SuSE doesn't provide a WONDERFUL product for $60-$70, it is that the upgrade does not really include much incentive for choosing it over the Professional version. Infact, I bet if i buy SuSE Upgrade, my savings between the two versions is probably substantually less than SuSE's savings (by not including a library worth of books). My other argument, about ISO's, is not that if SuSE truly couldn't make money when offering ISO's that they still should. It is that every single other major Linux distro company (including RedHat, which has proved it can and will be profitable) can seem to afford to have ISO's so why can't SuSE? The thing is, let's say that one in every thirty people download the ISO rather than buying SuSE. That's a big loss, that's true, but those download users are probably some of the most knowledgable - or at least very knowledgable - Linux users out there (a new Linux user probably would want support). That means that maybe SuSE didn't sell them a box, but they will come on this list, help a newbie, and lower the SuSE's support costs. And going around to box prices, if support is the most costly part of their offering, perhaps these download users would actually *make* money for SuSE. :-) -Tim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks tbutler@uninetsolutions.com ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm Free/Open Source Web Tools: http://www.uninetsolutions.com Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com ============== "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ==============
Man has this been hashed over & over. Please direct all discussion like this to feedback@suse.de and not on the general suse-linux-e list ! -----Original Message----- From: Timothy R.Butler [mailto:tbutler@uninetsolutions.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:54 PM To: Martin Webster; suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] Price/Worth Hi Martin,
I think you need a better understanding of Linux, Open Source, and how the distributions (SuSE included) made it all possible. Read "Rebel Code" by Glyn Moody before you start your ranting again.
Not to be argumentative, but I would say I have at least an average understanding of open source and Linux "made it all possible" as you put it (I've been in the Linux community for over three years, and the SuSE community for over two years). My argument, as I try to emphasize is not that SuSE doesn't provide a WONDERFUL product for $60-$70, it is that the upgrade does not really include much incentive for choosing it over the Professional version. Infact, I bet if i buy SuSE Upgrade, my savings between the two versions is probably substantually less than SuSE's savings (by not including a library worth of books). My other argument, about ISO's, is not that if SuSE truly couldn't make money when offering ISO's that they still should. It is that every single other major Linux distro company (including RedHat, which has proved it can and will be profitable) can seem to afford to have ISO's so why can't SuSE? The thing is, let's say that one in every thirty people download the ISO rather than buying SuSE. That's a big loss, that's true, but those download users are probably some of the most knowledgable - or at least very knowledgable - Linux users out there (a new Linux user probably would want support). That means that maybe SuSE didn't sell them a box, but they will come on this list, help a newbie, and lower the SuSE's support costs. And going around to box prices, if support is the most costly part of their offering, perhaps these download users would actually *make* money for SuSE. :-) -Tim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks tbutler@uninetsolutions.com ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm Free/Open Source Web Tools: http://www.uninetsolutions.com Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com ============== "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ============== -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq and the archives at http://lists.suse.com
On Wednesday 03 October 2001 22.54, Timothy R.Butler wrote:
My other argument, about ISO's, is not that if SuSE truly couldn't make money when offering ISO's that they still should. It is that every single other major Linux distro company (including RedHat, which has proved it can and will be profitable) can seem to afford to have ISO's so why can't SuSE?
But where is the money made? Is it that Redhat makes enough money from its support deals and consultancy, that they can afford free downloads as a means of increasing customer base and get publicity? Is it that SuSE hasn't reached that level of income in their 'other side' and still relies on sales to get a return on investment? I don't know, I haven't seen either company's books, but it seems logical, doesn't it?
The thing is, let's say that one in every thirty people download the ISO rather than buying SuSE.
One in thirty??? Most observers would say the ratio would be inverse. For every thirty people who downloaded, one would shell up the dough.
That's a big loss, that's true, but those download users are probably some of the most knowledgable - or at least very knowledgable - Linux users out there (a new Linux user probably would want support). That means that maybe SuSE didn't sell them a box, but they will come on this list, help a newbie, and lower the SuSE's support costs. And going around to box prices, if support is the most costly part of their offering, perhaps these download users would actually *make* money for SuSE.
:-)
-Tim
Hi Anders, I guess I really should stop replying to these replies before I dig myself a hole any deeper than the one I am already in. :-) I just managed to climb out of the one I dug for myself in February...
But where is the money made? Is it that Redhat makes enough money from its support deals and consultancy, that they can afford free downloads as a means of increasing customer base and get publicity?
You have a point, although this was a common practice of every major distro out there until SuSE decided not to release ISO's when 7.2 came out. Not just RedHat, not just Mandrake. Let me name the ones I can think of off the top of my head: RedHat, Caldera, Mandrake, Corel (soon to be Xandros), Stormix (defunct), Progeny, BearOps (formerly MaxOS), Connectiva. (My mistake, one other major distro does not provide iso's - TurboLinux) I might also add, if SuSE is hoping to sustain their company using box sales and not support, I just can't see that happening. The only Linux company that is becoming fiscally strong is RedHat, and as you point out they make a lot of money through support and consultancy. Also, since it's perfectly legal to distribute SuSE iso's, as SuSE's userbase grows, I think you will see the iso's available all over the place, just not at ftp.suse.com. It seems to me it would be preferable to keep the iso's under their control by offering them directly...
One in thirty??? Most observers would say the ratio would be inverse. For every thirty people who downloaded, one would shell up the dough.
I do believe it would be less than 1 in 10, most likely less than 1 in 20 that would download it. Why? Because most people either (1) want support, or (2) don't have a broadband connection. -Tim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks tbutler@uninetsolutions.com ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm Free/Open Source Web Tools: http://www.uninetsolutions.com Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com ============== "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ==============
(My mistake, one other major distro does not provide iso's - TurboLinux)
It does - but you have to go to their Japanese ftp server at ftp.turbolinux.co.jp. You can download the latest ISOs (version 7.0). And yes, it offers English environment as well (besides Japanese, Chinese and Korean). Ladislav Bodnar www.distrowatch.com
Timothy R.Butler writes:
Hi Martin,
I think you need a better understanding of Linux, Open Source, and how the distributions (SuSE included) made it all possible. Read "Rebel Code" by Glyn Moody before you start your ranting again.
One thing that did attract me to SuSE was the support they had for their prior releases. I still have 6.4 running at home and it is completely up-to-date. I do have 7.2 on a couple of machines. So it is not necessary to update everytime SuSE releases a new version. Pick one and be happy. Redhat provided an upgrade to rpm v4.0 in their version 6.2 pretty much invalidating any packages created with rpm 3.?. In software development this is a big no-no. Redhat never offered official XFree 4.0 upgrades for 6.2, no new KDE upgrades, so your only choice with them is create your own packages or upgrade. I love the fact that SuSE does this. It is my main reason for keeping them. Price does persuade me, but SuSE does produce quality. Just don't upgrade so often. I think if SuSE were to ever consider another alternative to the Professional/Standard, I would be in favor of a custom CD. From a webpage you create your own SuSE distribution, pay for it, and then either download it as an ISO, or have a CD created and shipped to you. You may pay more/less depending on what you get. This thread can now officially end.
Not to be argumentative, but I would say I have at least an average understanding of open source and Linux "made it all possible" as you put it (I've been in the Linux community for over three years, and the SuSE community for over two years). My argument, as I try to emphasize is not that SuSE doesn't provide a WONDERFUL product for $60-$70, it is that the upgrade does not really include much incentive for choosing it over the Professional version. Infact, I bet if i buy SuSE Upgrade, my savings between the two versions is probably substantually less than SuSE's savings (by not including a library worth of books). My other argument, about ISO's, is not that if SuSE truly couldn't make money when offering ISO's that they still should. It is that every single other major Linux distro company (including RedHat, which has proved it can and will be profitable) can seem to afford to have ISO's so why can't SuSE? The thing is, let's say that one in every thirty people download the ISO rather than buying SuSE. That's a big loss, that's true, but those download users are probably some of the most knowledgable - or at least very knowledgable - Linux users out there (a new Linux user probably would want support). That means that maybe SuSE didn't sell them a box, but they will come on this list, help a newbie, and lower the SuSE's support costs. And going around to box prices, if support is the most costly part of their offering, perhaps these download users would actually *make* money for SuSE. :-)
-Tim
-- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks tbutler@uninetsolutions.com ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm Free/Open Source Web Tools: http://www.uninetsolutions.com Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com ============== "Christian Web Services Since 1996" ==============
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-- Jesse Marlin Intec Telecom Systems Software Engineer Main 404-705-2800 Ph 404-705-2912 Fax 404-705-2805 Email jesse.marlin@intec-telecom-systems.com
On Wednesday 03 October 2001 8:54 pm, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Hi Martin, <cut>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Goodnight Tim. I think you've had your say. M -- Martin Webster <mwebster@ntlworld.com> Registered Linux User #230322 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/spider-monkey/
Really that discussion seems a little bit superficial and senseless. Microsoft doesn't change the software every two or three years. They also issue updated versions regularly. But, contrarily to what occurs with SuSE or other linuxers, they don't claim it at loud voice (You'll just note it quite discretely on their CD's, if so,...): they sell windows 2000, not windows may 2000, then windows september 2000. (Or XP 1, the XP 1.1 aso...). However, the people, once bough a main version (win95, 98, Millenium or 2000,...), keep their version as it is, simply,... till the next main name changed edition comes. Nobody prohibits You from doing the same under Linux. Just keeping the version Linux 7 till the 8 will come. And it will be the same like with Microsoft : small updates to the system will be available on FTP or other sites. Oh, pardon ! That is Microsoft. With SuSE and other linuxers, You might download free at all, the complete new version ! After all, if You are frequently surfing, then ADSL is worth the inversion and You might download full versions just in a few minuts. I did'nt get ADSL and I m running 7.1, but the almost last XFree, KDE, KOffice, Netscape, Communicator were downloaded and are running on my PC ! Imagine with ADSL ! So that, probably, the next version I will buy will be the SuSE Professionnal number 8 : just like with Microsoft, because it is expcted to mean a major change. It is to be understood that the full editions are more expressely dedicated to the everyday's more numerous newbies to Linux. (Myself I implemented 6.1 in februari this year, bought it two years ago but waited for having a wide PC b4 installing it. Then, the next month, I bought 7.1 and, indeed, there was a huge difference !). If somebody doesn't have access to widebands, maybe the simple CD wouldupdate would be the solution with on screen help books). Full stuff updates (complete books aso) are expensive and a little bit nonsense. Update books should just reflect the changes, but I remain with that : a user, at this stage of development of Linux and SuSE, who buys an update, knows enough abt Linux , Kde or Gnome to be able to update and complement with the help of screen books. At least, between minor shots. Regards to all, J.Boboli Martin Webster wrote:
On Wednesday 03 October 2001 8:54 pm, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Hi Martin, <cut>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Goodnight Tim. I think you've had your say.
M -- Martin Webster <mwebster@ntlworld.com> Registered Linux User #230322 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/spider-monkey/
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participants (8)
-
Anders Johansson -
Ben Rosenberg -
Jacek Boboli -
Jesse Marlin -
Ladislav Bodnar -
Martin Webster -
Timothy R.Butler -
W.D.McKinney