NOT good, from a supposedly PRO-Linux source! Fred ______________ "OK, it's official: Linux on the desktop is dead. Oh, sure, the corpse is still kicking around a little, and there's some debate about whether the patient is officially dead. But all we're waiting for now is the official death certificate from the coroner. The recent death of Eazel, as well as Corel's inability to practically give away the desktop-oriented Corel Linux, are two strong indications that there isn't an acceptable rate of return on Linux desktop development. (Plus, a leading Linux distribution that put a lot of resources into desktop Linux will shortly be announcing staff layoffs and budgetary cutbacks.) Without investment, Linux on the desktop will recede to a less frenetic rate of development: the enthusiasts will still develop code because they believe in the code, but the less enthusiastic -- and those with demanding day jobs -- will disappear from the scene. Such is the way of all movements: either the professionals take over and the movement evolves, or the movement recedes." http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3387/1/ -- -- ----/ / _ Fred A. Miller ---/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Systems Administrator --/ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / Cornell Univ. Press Services -/____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ fm@cupserv.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On May 22, 2001 04:40 pm, Fred A. Miller wrote:
NOT good, from a supposedly PRO-Linux source!
Fred ______________
"OK, it's official: Linux on the desktop is dead.
OK, it's official: people should stop equating "Linux on the desktop" with GNOME and it's components. I think the rabid GNOME people are thinking, "well, the solution I wanted to win has been faltering, but KDE sucks, so we're dead in the water." They seem to hate KDE so much that they ignore it, but if anything kills KDE, it's that piss-poor attitude. So how much is KDE affected by all this? Corel doesn't really count because they didn't touch KDE2 at any point and none of those guys were core developers. The GNOME people started a bunch of companies: Ximian and Eazel, specifically, while the KDE people are either voluntary, or paid by companies that don't depend entirely on KDE for survival. SuSE has a decent solutions and server business while TrollTech sells Qt for software that is not KDE. While KDE is important to both of those companies, they would still exist without it. As far as I can tell, the MandrakeSoft belt-tightening shouldn't affect KDE development either. Eazel had a horrible business model, and if anybody didn't see it coming they should have at least learned from the situation. Ximian, too. I don't really see how selling plush toys is going to keep the company alive. Software development is very expensive, if you pay your employees, and that money is going to have to come from somewhere... </RANT> Ok, I'm done. - -- James Oakley Engineering - SolutionInc Ltd. joakley@solutioninc.com http://www.solutioninc.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7CseQ+FOexA3koIgRAqWmAKCPhy4x2dP3kggGSlmhAiIauDU+FACeNjEC 7xjL2u2bZusrFA8LJHWutVc= =NeBA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I can't agree more James! <rant>People seem to look over KDE, even though it happens to be on more Linux desktops around the world than GNOME is (or in my opinion, ever will). I mean, come on, the GNOMEs were all excited that they finally had a decent filemanager while the KDE folks are working on office suites, _improving_ an already great file manager, adding stability, speed, and more. What doesn't seem obvious to many, is that KDE has been, and will be (for the foreseeable future) ahead of GNOME.</rant> -Tim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ============== "Information Powered by Innovation" ==============
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 May 2001 03:09 pm, you wrote:
OK, it's official: people should stop equating "Linux on the desktop" with GNOME and it's components. I think the rabid GNOME people are thinking, "well, the solution I wanted to win has been faltering, but KDE sucks, so we're dead in the water." They seem to hate KDE so much that they ignore it, but if anything kills KDE, it's that piss-poor attitude.
I dunno, for GNOME being equated with the desktop, Konqueror has gotten a ton
of sexy press lately.
I agree completely, not only would the developers mourn if the other side faded away, but alot of end-user would be missing out. The "big thing" for me as a end-user and a newbie of just under a year is all the "CHOICE". Something that is at the heart and soul of Linux and the #1 fear of M$. Having one of the LInux mainstays flounder would mean everyone would lose out. I know it's essential and enevitable that if Linux is to gain widespread acceptance that they will have to court wall street and the market. I just don't want to see a lot of hard and sound work become cannon fodder for th bears and the bulls. I've been involved with the sciences more years than I care to count. Programmers are not that different from the physicist or the biologist - they are perfectionist and very protective about their work and reputations. Quibbling is a part of the game. But, let the marketers get a hold of it and watch all the hype and marketing angles run amuk. Screw em! As a very enthusiastic end-user all I can say is Just Do What You Do Best and let the others scratch their heads. Thank you for your efforts and work in developing this OS and for giving me a tool I find both enjoyable and stimulating. Cheers and keep kicking ass, Curtis Rey On Tuesday 22 May 2001 10:38 pm, Kevin Breit wrote:
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On Tuesday 22 May 2001 03:09 pm, you wrote:
OK, it's official: people should stop equating "Linux on the desktop" with GNOME and it's components. I think the rabid GNOME people are thinking, "well, the solution I wanted to win has been faltering, but KDE sucks, so we're dead in the water." They seem to hate KDE so much that they ignore it, but if anything kills KDE, it's that piss-poor attitude.
I dunno, for GNOME being equated with the desktop, Konqueror has gotten a ton of sexy press lately.
I am a member of the GDP (Gnome Documentation Project). For quite some time, I was using KDE 2.x. Yes...KDE, while contributing to Gnome. I knew a few others like that too. I think it's also important to recognize that coolo (of KDE fame) does spend much time on the #docs channel on the Gnome IRC servers. I really have to wonder how much we HATE the other desktop environment. Yeah, we got some harsh words for the other side, but we're competitors...welcome to competition boys. I think that the stereotype of the environments hating eachother are trolls on the forums more than the actual contributing members. How many of the people ripping on the other side actually make regular and quality commits? Maybe it's even better to ask how many people ripping on the other environment are developers. Take a look at the numbers. IMHO, I think both sides would mourn a little bit if the other side died for whatever reason. Thanks Kevin Breit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE7CzDXZwmecaSjdXYRAqEgAJ9rhBErwCdsY8NqUurUuoJwrjHv0wCfRuuv ZgrPR4pkuFqXkKs+CJatv78= =SS/A -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On May 23, 2001 12:38 am, Kevin Breit wrote:
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On Tuesday 22 May 2001 03:09 pm, you wrote:
OK, it's official: people should stop equating "Linux on the desktop" with GNOME and it's components. I think the rabid GNOME people are thinking, "well, the solution I wanted to win has been faltering, but KDE sucks, so we're dead in the water." They seem to hate KDE so much that they ignore it, but if anything kills KDE, it's that piss-poor attitude.
I dunno, for GNOME being equated with the desktop, Konqueror has gotten a ton of sexy press lately.
I've only seen it mentioned on /. but a lot of people are highly impressed with it.
I am a member of the GDP (Gnome Documentation Project). For quite some time, I was using KDE 2.x. Yes...KDE, while contributing to Gnome. I knew a few others like that too. I think it's also important to recognize that coolo (of KDE fame) does spend much time on the #docs channel on the Gnome IRC servers. I really have to wonder how much we HATE the other desktop environment. Yeah, we got some harsh words for the other side, but we're competitors...welcome to competition boys. I think that the stereotype of the environments hating eachother are trolls on the forums more than the actual contributing members. How many of the people ripping on the other side actually make regular and quality commits? Maybe it's even better to ask how many people ripping on the other environment are developers. Take a look at the numbers. IMHO, I think both sides would mourn a little bit if the other side died for whatever reason.
I did say "rabid GNOME people" to differentiate from normal people. I always keep GNOME on whatever I'm using for the apps. Some of them are quite superior to their KDE counterparts. I'm listening to XMMS right now. I only wish that GTK file dialogs had bookmarks... I think you're right about the developer thing. The most rabid people are the ones who are not developers. Real developers see the value in interoperability and that is what is bringing the GNOME and KDE people together. Lately I've been on a severe XMLRPC kick. KDE will translate XMLRPC into DCOP. There are efforts to integrate XMLRPC in GNOME, notably 'Reef'. Just a little glue and Apps are talking to each other. Actually, I just had a thought. Imagine an app, instead of displaying it's own file dialog, makes an XMLRPC call to the desktop. The desktop would create a dialog, for whatever desktop environment you're running, and return the user selected file. Then users can customise their file dialogs and all applications use it... Neither environment is equipeed to handle this yet but it would definitely be cool... It's an example of how we can benefit from interoperability. - -- James Oakley Engineering - SolutionInc Ltd. joakley@solutioninc.com http://www.solutioninc.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7C8Fv+FOexA3koIgRAjnfAJ0UCVDs9AGcid5R6kqDL6NcOZL/EACgmQ3e dIqddkYhO+waiwcpPVSxYTk= =O+eO -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
How sad :) Las week we killed the last one NT box in our department and completely switched to StarOffice for all desktop office applications. Should we now pull our hear and beg M$ to forgive us? I don't believe to this article. May be it's part of M$ campaign to disorganize Linux community. Regards. Alex -------------------
NOT good, from a supposedly PRO-Linux source!
Fred ______________
"OK, it's official: Linux on the desktop is dead.
Oh, sure, the corpse is still kicking around a little, and there's some debate about whether the patient is officially dead. But all we're waiting for now is the official death certificate from the coroner.
The recent death of Eazel, as well as Corel's inability to practically give away the desktop-oriented Corel Linux, are two strong indications that there isn't an acceptable rate of return on Linux desktop development. (Plus, a leading Linux distribution that put a lot of resources into desktop Linux will shortly be announcing staff layoffs and budgetary cutbacks.) Without investment, Linux on the desktop will recede to a less frenetic rate of development: the enthusiasts will still develop code because they believe in the code, but the less enthusiastic -- and those with demanding day jobs -- will disappear from the scene. Such is the way of all movements: either the professionals take over and the movement evolves, or the movement recedes."
http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3387/1/
-- -- ----/ / _ Fred A. Miller ---/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Systems Administrator --/ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / Cornell Univ. Press Services -/____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ fm@cupserv.org
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq and the archives at http://lists.suse.com
-- MS Windows users should be covered under the Americans with disabilities Act.
Ok, who's padding this guys account? 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count. I say shoot the M$ infiltrators and burn their corpse on the lawns in Redmond. He isn't by any chance related to David Coursey is he? Don't tell the guys at XFree86.org, KDE.org, Ximian, or Gnome - I wouldn't want to be responsible for a rash of mass suicides. Give me a break PLEASE!!! Correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't IBM start out with corporate mainframes and then introduce the "PC"? And, didn't the PC take on a life of its own? And aren't we seeing the same trend with Linux - get accepted on the corporate side and then the rest to follow (unless your UNIX)? So how does it follow that seeing success on the corporate side tolls the death bell for the end-user and the gui? 'splain dis to me Lucy! And if "Eazel" was the end-all, beat-all killer app that kill the Linux destop with it's demise. I have to go now and take an asparin. Just my 2+ cents. Curtis Rey On Tuesday 22 May 2001 02:40 pm, Fred A. Miller wrote:
NOT good, from a supposedly PRO-Linux source!
Fred ______________
"OK, it's official: Linux on the desktop is dead.
Oh, sure, the corpse is still kicking around a little, and there's some debate about whether the patient is officially dead. But all we're waiting for now is the official death certificate from the coroner.
The recent death of Eazel, as well as Corel's inability to practically give away the desktop-oriented Corel Linux, are two strong indications that there isn't an acceptable rate of return on Linux desktop development. (Plus, a leading Linux distribution that put a lot of resources into desktop Linux will shortly be announcing staff layoffs and budgetary cutbacks.) Without investment, Linux on the desktop will recede to a less frenetic rate of development: the enthusiasts will still develop code because they believe in the code, but the less enthusiastic -- and those with demanding day jobs -- will disappear from the scene. Such is the way of all movements: either the professionals take over and the movement evolves, or the movement recedes."
Hey Curtis
Ok, who's padding this guys account? 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count. I say shoot the M$ infiltrators and burn their corpse on the lawns
<g> Maybe that would work...
in Redmond. He isn't by any chance related to David Coursey is he?
What, has the guy who will never fully replace Jesse Berst (IMO), been saying the same thing?
Don't tell the guys at XFree86.org, KDE.org, Ximian, or Gnome - I wouldn't want to be responsible for a rash of mass suicides. Give me a break PLEASE!!!
I agree fully. Personally, I'm putting my bets on seing Ximian sink in the near future too (it doesn't have a business model - unlike theKompany - as far as I can tell), but that will still leave the free software projects doing all the hard work they have been for years...
'splain dis to me Lucy!
I can't think a no 'splain'in I can do for dis one. Maybe Lucy did some of her "singing" for a little to long in the office of LinuxPlanet? -Tim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ============== "Information Powered by Innovation" ==============
On Tuesday 22 May 2001 10:41 pm, Timothy R.Butler wrote:
Hey Curtis
Ok, who's padding this guys account? 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count. I say shoot the M$ infiltrators and burn their corpse on the lawns
<g> Maybe that would work...
in Redmond. He isn't by any chance related to David Coursey is he?
What, has the guy who will never fully replace Jesse Berst (IMO), been saying the same thing?
David puts out the same type of FUD - that Linux is never going to mature and it will never be a desktop pc like M$. They both share a similar style of subversion and induedo. The Linux editor is doing no service to the community by equating the desktop Linux with Eazel. Frankly, If he put his money on Gnome as the killer app for Linux it makes me think the only other gui he's used is twm or olwn, etc. KDE is just a lot smoother in my opinion and I was never really impressed with the look, fell, or functionality of Gnome. This is what happens when a faction of a movement take the old line standard of hype - I'm talking about Gnome and their corporate backers. Boards room jockies only know about product marketing and the ledger - necessary evils. But they should not get to involved on the raw devolpment end of things - they tend to screw it up. Eazel tried to put on a marketable face but they had know idea what that was about. This is why I think SuSE put so much into the KDE side of things - it was just practicle and more stable. I agree about Ximian taking the next dive. Didn't anyone pay attention to the market over the last 18 months - no business model, no go period. Just riding on borrowed time, or money in this case. This is why it is essential for people to understand the difference between "the free software" movement versus the "open source" movement. open source will always be around. It's just if someone wants to make money at it they've got to have a clear understanding about it. To date, IBM, RedHat, SuSe, and Vmlinux seem to have a solid plan. that doesn't ensure success for all, but once Linux is accepted as viable it will have a life of its own. Regardless of what anyone says. So endeth the diatribe.
Don't tell the guys at XFree86.org, KDE.org, Ximian, or Gnome - I wouldn't want to be responsible for a rash of mass suicides. Give me a break PLEASE!!!
I agree fully. Personally, I'm putting my bets on seing Ximian sink in the near future too (it doesn't have a business model - unlike theKompany - as far as I can tell), but that will still leave the free software projects doing all the hard work they have been for years...
'splain dis to me Lucy!
I can't think a no 'splain'in I can do for dis one. Maybe Lucy did some of her "singing" for a little to long in the office of LinuxPlanet?
-Tim
Cheers, Curtis
participants (6)
-
Alex Daniloff -
Curtis Rey -
Fred A. Miller -
James Oakley -
Kevin Breit -
Timothy R.Butler