[opensuse] SD cards quality - short follow-up
This isn't really very on-topic, but I though should add this quick follow-up. I'm not sure there was actually anything wrong with the Kingston card (16Gb, maybe 2 years old) I almost threw away. I put it aside and started working with a new Sandisk card, also 16Gb. After a little while, copying stuff to and fro, booting the nanopi, changing something etc - sudenyl it also developed some I/O problem. Odd messages in the kernel buffer, and unable to mount, then unable to even fsck. Partition table cannot be read .... This all happened with my Lenovo laptop. I began to have this gnawing doubt, and thought I would try an older Toshiba laptop. Hmm, same problem - then it occurred to me I had been in the very same situation maybe a year back. Solution - put the SD card in my Nikon camera (immediately complains the card needs formatting), format it - et voila!, no problem any more. Did the samne with the Kingston card, also works now. The difference between the two laptops - in the Lenovo the SD card is available as /dev/mmcblk0, in the Toshiba as /dev/sdb. (via USB). The difference in behaviour between the two interfaces is bad enough, but what is really weird is that it takes a 3rd device to "reset" the card. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.3°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 14.26, Per Jessen wrote:
This isn't really very on-topic, but I though should add this quick follow-up.
I'm not sure there was actually anything wrong with the Kingston card (16Gb, maybe 2 years old) I almost threw away. I put it aside and started working with a new Sandisk card, also 16Gb. After a little while, copying stuff to and fro, booting the nanopi, changing something etc - sudenyl it also developed some I/O problem. Odd messages in the kernel buffer, and unable to mount, then unable to even fsck. Partition table cannot be read ....
This all happened with my Lenovo laptop. I began to have this gnawing doubt, and thought I would try an older Toshiba laptop. Hmm, same problem - then it occurred to me I had been in the very same situation maybe a year back.
Solution - put the SD card in my Nikon camera (immediately complains the card needs formatting), format it - et voila!, no problem any more. Did the samne with the Kingston card, also works now.
The difference between the two laptops - in the Lenovo the SD card is available as /dev/mmcblk0, in the Toshiba as /dev/sdb. (via USB).
The difference in behaviour between the two interfaces is bad enough, but what is really weird is that it takes a 3rd device to "reset" the card.
It would be interesting to find out the formatting details as done on the laptops and the camera. I think that would be "on topic" for us, if we learn out how to do it "properly". Sector/block size perhaps? Filesystem? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXee6WgAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1cYHAJ9vZz2CL5WQl2Qb0ZeIDBuRhLDO5gCgl3YO7iXRbfsdZ76AzanzjffpgPM= =zN1H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The difference in behaviour between the two interfaces is bad enough, but what is really weird is that it takes a 3rd device to "reset" the card.
It would be interesting to find out the formatting details as done on the laptops and the camera. I think that would be "on topic" for us, if we learn out how to do it "properly".
Sector/block size perhaps? Filesystem?
The Nikon camera just puts a single partition, all space, formatted for vfat. It's very fast. What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.6°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-12-04 09:40 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine.
IIRC, by default, Linux does not read/write exFAT, which is commonly used on flash. I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> [12-04-19 10:52]:
On 2019-12-04 09:40 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine.
IIRC, by default, Linux does not read/write exFAT, which is commonly used on flash. I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC.
seems quite well covered: https://www.howtogeek.com/235655/how-to-mount-and-use-an-exfat-drive-on-linu... https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/opensource/2019/08/28/exfat-linux-kernel/ https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=exfat -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-12-04 10:56 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* James Knott<james.knott@jknott.net> [12-04-19 10:52]:
On 2019-12-04 09:40 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine. IIRC, by default, Linux does not read/write exFAT, which is commonly used on flash. I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT seems quite well covered:
https://www.howtogeek.com/235655/how-to-mount-and-use-an-exfat-drive-on-linu... https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/opensource/2019/08/28/exfat-linux-kernel/ https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=exfat
Since I don't use flash cards with a camera, I can wait until exFAT support becomes part of system. All the flash cards & USB pen drives, etc. that I have are formatted int EXT4 or NTFS. About the only exception is the card in my Garmin GPS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> [12-04-19 11:55]:
On 2019-12-04 10:56 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* James Knott<james.knott@jknott.net> [12-04-19 10:52]:
On 2019-12-04 09:40 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine. IIRC, by default, Linux does not read/write exFAT, which is commonly used on flash. I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT seems quite well covered:
https://www.howtogeek.com/235655/how-to-mount-and-use-an-exfat-drive-on-linu... https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/opensource/2019/08/28/exfat-linux-kernel/ https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&baseproject=ALL&q=exfat
Since I don't use flash cards with a camera, I can wait until exFAT support becomes part of system. All the flash cards & USB pen drives, etc. that I have are formatted int EXT4 or NTFS. About the only exception is the card in my Garmin GPS.
then you fail to read or just don't want to. It is already in 5.4+ kernels, https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5-4/ -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-12-04 12:14 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
then you fail to read or just don't want to. It is already in 5.4+ kernels, https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5-4/
Is it in openSUSE 15.1 as installed? According to that article, it's just now in the kernel. As I said, it's not a priority for me, as I don't have any need for it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> [01-01-70 12:34]:
On 2019-12-04 12:14 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
then you fail to read or just don't want to. It is already in 5.4+ kernels, https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5-4/
Is it in openSUSE 15.1 as installed? According to that article, it's just now in the kernel. As I said, it's not a priority for me, as I don't have any need for it.
<quote> Since I don't use flash cards with a camera, I can wait until exFAT support becomes part of system. All the flash cards & USB pen drives, etc. that I have are formatted int EXT4 or NTFS. About the only exception is the card in my Garmin GPS. </quote> If you are not interested, just say it instead of indicating otherwise. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-12-04 12:25 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> [01-01-70 12:34]:
On 2019-12-04 12:14 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
then you fail to read or just don't want to. It is already in 5.4+ kernels, https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5-4/ Is it in openSUSE 15.1 as installed? According to that article, it's just now in the kernel. As I said, it's not a priority for me, as I don't have any need for it. <quote> Since I don't use flash cards with a camera, I can wait until exFAT support becomes part of system. All the flash cards & USB pen drives, etc. that I have are formatted int EXT4 or NTFS. About the only exception is the card in my Garmin GPS. </quote>
If you are not interested, just say it instead of indicating otherwise.
???? I only commented initially, to clear up some confusion about why the card failed for someone else. I then provided relevant info. You then said "then you fail to read or just don't want to. It is already in 5.4+ kernels". How am I supposed to respond to that other than to say it's not important to me??? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 18.18, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 12:14 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
then you fail to read or just don't want to. It is already in 5.4+ kernels, https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5-4/
Is it in openSUSE 15.1 as installed?
No, it is implemented in userland with a package from packman. With the current policy change I see possible that the package be moved to oss in the future, before we get it in the Leap kernel.
According to that article, it's just now in the kernel. As I said, it's not a priority for me, as I don't have any need for it.
Ok, but I think that exfat is better than ntfs, on cards and sticks at least. It is optimized for that use. Unless you need the stick/card to use on some old machine that doesn't understand that filesystem, like an ancient TV set. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXefzDwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1Q4TAJ4hFYDj3HfB6xh7wGA6td5/twS6NQCfTj2JIeVFej7TRN8Of70s5ThzlPk= =tGO8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-12-04 12:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ok, but I think that exfat is better than ntfs, on cards and sticks at least. It is optimized for that use. Unless you need the stick/card to use on some old machine that doesn't understand that filesystem, like an ancient TV set.
How is EXT4 on those devices? That's what most of my storage is configured for. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 19.07, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 12:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ok, but I think that exfat is better than ntfs, on cards and sticks at least. It is optimized for that use. Unless you need the stick/card to use on some old machine that doesn't understand that filesystem, like an ancient TV set.
How is EXT4 on those devices? That's what most of my storage is configured for.
I don't know. I use it with the journal disabled. However: many sticks are actually optimized for FAT. They use smaller write blocks on that area, optimizing it for frequent writes. I don't have a cite for this, I read it on some report. Remember that they normally use a "write block" (I don't know the actual name) that is not 512 or 4 KiB as the filesystem uses, but some value that I think is 16 KiB, not sure. meaning that when you write a 512 byte block, actually the entire 8 K section is written. But the FAT area has a smaller block, unknown size. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXef3MwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1YghAKCVaa1f/nPlvBfqJ42/CDm4lkoUXACeMl1YnevJ4N+MPhIBqeIyaY+8xxg= =T2Jp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/12/2019 19.13, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 04/12/2019 19.07, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 12:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ok, but I think that exfat is better than ntfs, on cards and sticks at least. It is optimized for that use. Unless you need the stick/card to use on some old machine that doesn't understand that filesystem, like an ancient TV set.
How is EXT4 on those devices? That's what most of my storage is configured for.
I don't know. I use it with the journal disabled.
However: many sticks are actually optimized for FAT. They use smaller write blocks on that area, optimizing it for frequent writes. I don't have a cite for this, I read it on some report.
Remember that they normally use a "write block" (I don't know the actual name) that is not 512 or 4 KiB as the filesystem uses, but some value that I think is 16 KiB, not sure. meaning that when you write a 512 byte block, actually the entire 8 K section is written. But the FAT area has a smaller block, unknown size.
I found the reference for this. The link is dead, but I found a post of mine with the relevant section - google does not find the referenced text: It appears that the makers of these sticks do optimize the media to allow for multiple write cycles in the start region of the flash area, precisely where the FAT would go. If you format with a different filesytem like ext3 or ntfs, wear, and thus life expectancy, is impaired. Also, the partition table is made differently than what fdisk does if you repartition the drive. <https://wiki.linaro.org/WorkingGroups/KernelArchived/Projects/FlashCardSurvey?action=show&redirect=WorkingGroups%2FKernel%2FProjects%2FFlashCardSurvey> LINARO: Flash memory card design +++······························· FAT optimization ================== Most portable flash media come preformatted as with a FAT32 file system. This is not only done because there is support for this file system in all operating systems, it is actually a reasonably good choice for the media: The data on a FAT32 file system is always written in clusters of e.g. 32 KB, and the media are normally formatted with a cluster size matching the optimum write size, as well as aligning the clusters to the start of internal units, and the access patterns on a FAT32 file system are relatively predictable, alternating between data blocks, file allocation table (FAT) and directories. The cards take advantage of this knowledge by optimizing for the access patterns that are observed on FAT32, which unfortunately can lead to worst-case access patterns when using ext3 or other Linux file systems. In particular, the following (mis-)optimizations are commonly seen on flash media: * Most allocation groups are in linear write mode by default, only the first one or two allocation groups allow efficient write patterns in smaller units at all times. Since the FAT is known to be in the beginning of the partition, the controller only needs to allow writing small updates there, while it can expect other parts of the medium to be used for large image or video files. * SDHC cards in particular rely on a specific partition table layout that guarantees the start of the partition to be aligned to a full allocation group (typically 4 MB), so that the FAT actually ends up in the location that is optimized for it. Repartitioning the device with fdisk usually moves the start of each partition to a cylinder boundary in C/H/S addressing. Due to legacy reasons and backward-compatibility with MS-DOS, the cylinder usually has 255 heads and 63 sectors of 512 bytes, which puts the start of the first partition just behind the optimum area. To make matters much much worse, the alignment of the partition then becomes just 512 bytes instead of 4 MB, which gives worst-case behavior when the file system attempts to do aligned writes to the partition. * Only a small number of allocation groups is kept open at a time, on many SD cards only a single one, the largest observed number of open erase blocks was ten. Writing data to another allocation unit while having multiple units open causes the least recently used one to go through garbage collection. In the worst case, this can lead to the card writing a full allocation unit of multiple megabytes for each 512 byte block that gets written by the file system. All authentic Sandisk cards tested so far can write to six allocation units, and keep the most commonly written ones open, while most cheap cards have a smaller number and also use a simple one-stage least-recently-used algorithm for deciding with AU to clean up. * The smallest write unit is significantly larger than a page. Reading or writing less than one of these units causes a full unit to be accessed. Trying to do streaming write in smaller units causes the medium to do multiple read-modify-write cycles on the same write unit, which in turn causes multiple garbage collection cycles for writing a single allocation group from start to end. Small SD (non-SDHC) and MMC cards, as well as most USB sticks of any size use the page size as write unit. ·······························++- More links: <http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Kernel-Log-Coming-in-3-8-Part-1-Filesystems-and-storage-1788524.html> Kernel Log - Coming in 3.8 (Part 1) -- Filesystems and storage (F2fs) <http://lwn.net/Articles/518988/> LWN: An f2fs teardown <http://lwn.net/Articles/470553/> LWN: Improving ext4: bigalloc, inline data, and metadata checksums -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 12:55 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ok, but I think that exfat is better than ntfs, on cards and sticks at least. It is optimized for that use. Unless you need the stick/card to use on some old machine that doesn't understand that filesystem, like an ancient TV set.
How is EXT4 on those devices? That's what most of my storage is configured for.
My experience - works very well. I have it running on 3 nanopis and one raspi. Doesn't get a lot of I/O exercise thouh. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 04/12/2019 18.18, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 12:14 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
then you fail to read or just don't want to. It is already in 5.4+ kernels, https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5-4/
Is it in openSUSE 15.1 as installed?
No, it is implemented in userland with a package from packman. With the current policy change I see possible that the package be moved to oss in the future, before we get it in the Leap kernel.
You don't need pacman, it's available in OBS, since forever (approx).
According to that article, it's just now in the kernel. As I said, it's not a priority for me, as I don't have any need for it.
Ok, but I think that exfat is better than ntfs, on cards and sticks at least. It is optimized for that use.
Is it actually optimised in any way? I'm using vfat for the EFI partition and ext4 for root.
Unless you need the stick/card to use on some old machine that doesn't understand that filesystem, like an ancient TV set.
Ancient TV sets have CRT tubes, not SD card slots. :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.4°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 19.22, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 04/12/2019 18.18, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 12:14 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
then you fail to read or just don't want to. It is already in 5.4+ kernels, https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5-4/
Is it in openSUSE 15.1 as installed?
No, it is implemented in userland with a package from packman. With the current policy change I see possible that the package be moved to oss in the future, before we get it in the Leap kernel.
You don't need pacman, it's available in OBS, since forever (approx).
Surely not forever, or the idea it comes from there would not be in my mind...
According to that article, it's just now in the kernel. As I said, it's not a priority for me, as I don't have any need for it.
Ok, but I think that exfat is better than ntfs, on cards and sticks at least. It is optimized for that use.
Is it actually optimised in any way? I'm using vfat for the EFI partition and ext4 for root.
I'm certain. Not the filesystem, but the hardware. The USB sticks are often optimized for FAT, assuming the first partition, in the manner they partition and format it when sold - meaning that the FAT falls on exactly the sectors they designed for it. Those "flash sectors" are smaller than the rest of the chip, and /perhaps/ strengthened. On the other hand, exFAT is optimized for sticks and cards. I have not read the specs, so I do not know how. My guess, there should not be a fixed FAT area. I must read on that.
Unless you need the stick/card to use on some old machine that doesn't understand that filesystem, like an ancient TV set.
Ancient TV sets have CRT tubes, not SD card slots. :-)
Not that ancient :-D - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXef/pQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1RTvAJ9kgPmT+twpprMJeRvftf1V56uuAwCcDlA4Ha/Fr5u0WPgPoZsd+4nb9jo= =BDQV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 19.49, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 04/12/2019 19.22, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
According to that article, it's just now in the kernel. As I said, it's not a priority for me, as I don't have any need for it.
Ok, but I think that exfat is better than ntfs, on cards and sticks at least. It is optimized for that use.
Is it actually optimised in any way? I'm using vfat for the EFI partition and ext4 for root.
Huh, I misunderstood your question. Please ignore the next paragraph, it does not pertain to this subthread.
I'm certain. Not the filesystem, but the hardware. The USB sticks are often optimized for FAT, assuming the first partition, in the manner they partition and format it when sold - meaning that the FAT falls on exactly the sectors they designed for it. Those "flash sectors" are smaller than the rest of the chip, and /perhaps/ strengthened.
On the other hand, exFAT is optimized for sticks and cards. I have not read the specs, so I do not know how. My guess, there should not be a fixed FAT area. I must read on that.
Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXegUeQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1XRsAJ9+z7TQ7w1XPYNkTjupqRl7pE0KBACfZ6UMFcWg/RsrGzLqkJ7VteiskHM= =D8WU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 09:40 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine.
IIRC, by default, Linux does not read/write exFAT, which is commonly used on flash.
exFAT was open-sourced recently, but it was never a problem using exFAT on linux. There are user-space tools out there.
I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC.
AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files, which the camera probably does not need? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.5°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-12-04 11:47 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files,
And long file names. You may recall using the dir command and seeing all the short file names containing a ~. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 11:47 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files,
And long file names. You may recall using the dir command and seeing all the short file names containing a ~.
Right, I forgot about that one. Maybe also UTF8 in filenames? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.1°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/12/2019 18.05, Per Jessen wrote:
James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 11:47 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files,
And long file names. You may recall using the dir command and seeing all the short file names containing a ~.
Right, I forgot about that one.
Maybe also UTF8 in filenames?
From a quick read, some fields are ASCII and some Unicode. «3.1.2 FileSystemName Field The FileSystemName field shall contain the name of the file system on the volume. The valid value for this field is, in ASCII characters, "EXFAT ", which includes three trailing white spaces.» ... «7.7.3 FileName Field The FileName field shall contain a Unicode string, which is a portion of the file name. In the order File Name directory entries exist in a File directory entry set, FileName fields concatenate to form the file name for the File directory entry set. Given the length of the FileName field, 15 characters, and the maximum number of File Name directory entries, 17, the maximum length of the final, concatenated file name is 255. The concatenated file name has the same set of illegal characters as other FAT-based file systems (see Table 35). Implementations should set the unused characters of FileName fields to the value 0000h.» ... «Implementations may wish to restrict file and directory names to just the ASCII character set. If so they should limit their character use to the range of valid characters in the first 128 Unicode entries. They must still store file and directory names in Unicode on the volume and translate to/from ASCII/Unicode when interfacing with the user.» There are a few invalid chars. <https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/exfat-specification> -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 18:05:12 +0100 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:
James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 11:47 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files,
And long file names. You may recall using the dir command and seeing all the short file names containing a ~.
Right, I forgot about that one.
err, no. Long file names came in with the VFAT kludge and have been in FAT32 before exFAT was invented. exFAT is also faster, mostly.
Maybe also UTF8 in filenames?
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On 2019-12-04 01:18 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 11:47 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files, And long file names. You may recall using the dir command and seeing all the short file names containing a ~. Right, I forgot about that one. err, no. Long file names came in with the VFAT kludge and have been in FAT32 before exFAT was invented.
I think you're getting quotes mixed up. I'm the one who mentioned the short file names WRT VFAT. I was quite familiar with that as I was working at IBM at the time and, as an OS/2 user (and 3rd level support) we often poked fun at how MS handled long file names, compared to OS/2 & HPFS, which could do 255 characters, without resorting to the nonsense that Windows 95 needed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 19.33, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 01:18 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 11:47 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files, And long file names. You may recall using the dir command and seeing all the short file names containing a ~. Right, I forgot about that one. err, no. Long file names came in with the VFAT kludge and have been in FAT32 before exFAT was invented.
I think you're getting quotes mixed up. I'm the one who mentioned the short file names WRT VFAT. I was quite familiar with that as I was working at IBM at the time and, as an OS/2 user (and 3rd level support) we often poked fun at how MS handled long file names, compared to OS/2 & HPFS, which could do 255 characters, without resorting to the nonsense that Windows 95 needed.
I also knew FAT in depth; I had a project to create a defrag program optimized for speed (I never actually did it). When VFAT came I was not that interested. The directory entries store a short version of the long name (8.3 chars), while the long names were stored somewhere else, but I do not remember where. A real kludge, that I remember. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXegAwgAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1e9HAJ9cMK/9pBElwlEFyBQnnkGkCf0cMgCbBtrluUYKBiWSpJ8bJOkvXihR9lo= =csAQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Per, et al -- ...and then Per Jessen said... % % James Knott wrote: % ... % > I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. % > VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC. % % AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files, % which the camera probably does not need? Most high-end cameras also do video now, and that'll get big in a hurry. :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David T-G wrote:
Per, et al --
...and then Per Jessen said... % % James Knott wrote: % ... % > I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. % > VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC. % % AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files, % which the camera probably does not need?
Most high-end cameras also do video now, and that'll get big in a hurry.
Yeah, it's a good point, I was about to mention that too - mine also does videos, I don't know how it would handle that. Split the files up? /Per -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 18.30, Per Jessen wrote:
David T-G wrote:
Per, et al --
...and then Per Jessen said... % % James Knott wrote: % ... % > I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. % > VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC. % % AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files, % which the camera probably does not need? Most high-end cameras also do video now, and that'll get big in a hurry.
Yeah, it's a good point, I was about to mention that too - mine also does videos, I don't know how it would handle that. Split the files up?
A Samsung pocket camera I have just stops. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXef3fQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1VUyAJ9mR6afG61HHviUw9bV1X+QLe8EVQCfceJeN51rMMA4vPTEfppaaxSSq6w= =rbC9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 04/12/2019 18.30, Per Jessen wrote:
David T-G wrote:
Per, et al --
...and then Per Jessen said... % % James Knott wrote: % ... % > I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. % > VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC. % % AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files, % which the camera probably does not need? Most high-end cameras also do video now, and that'll get big in a hurry.
Yeah, it's a good point, I was about to mention that too - mine also does videos, I don't know how it would handle that. Split the files up?
A Samsung pocket camera I have just stops.
I think my small Canon pocket camera actually uses exfat :-), but I use it very rarely. Waste of money. The camera I used for the formatting is my Nikon D5200. My on-board dashcam records in 2Gb chunks too. Btw, to anyone buying SD cards right now - I had forgotten I had stocked up in September and bought two extra 16Gb cards, 20/each. Remarkably with 99 months warranty! Current prices are about 1/3 of that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 19.32, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Btw, to anyone buying SD cards right now - I had forgotten I had stocked up in September and bought two extra 16Gb cards, 20/each. Remarkably with 99 months warranty! Current prices are about 1/3 of that.
Ah, so you have the originals. You can do an fdisk -l on them, and "file -s /dev/sdX /dev/sdX?" on an untouched card, another one just out of the Nikon camera, and another one as used on your nanopi when it failed. To see if we can find out the differences :-? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXegB0gAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1WAuAJ9CI1kEUCQk20b0sm72aczyNc4MjACdFUyXRl91hy8kGm1t2PLRLabty4g= =KVJ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 04/12/2019 19.32, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Btw, to anyone buying SD cards right now - I had forgotten I had stocked up in September and bought two extra 16Gb cards, 20/each. Remarkably with 99 months warranty! Current prices are about 1/3 of that.
Ah, so you have the originals.
You can do an fdisk -l on them, and "file -s /dev/sdX /dev/sdX?" on an untouched card, another one just out of the Nikon camera, and another one as used on your nanopi when it failed.
To see if we can find out the differences :-?
It's the third one that isn't so straight forward - reproduce the problem. Besides, it seems fairly clear that it is a hardware or driver problem wrt the mmc interface in the Lenovo. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 04/12/2019 à 18:30, Per Jessen a écrit :
Yeah, it's a good point, I was about to mention that too - mine also does videos, I don't know how it would handle that. Split the files up?
depending on the size of the card, format extfat, split on 2Gb (usual) or 4Gb (for example my Canon HF G30) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 04/12/2019 à 18:27, David T-G a écrit :
Most high-end cameras also do video now, and that'll get big in a hurry.
AFAIK, when formatting large memory pen, windows suggest only ntfs or extfat (no more FAT32), so you can receive from others extfat memory cards jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 17.47, Per Jessen wrote:
I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC.
AFAIK, the only thing gained with exFAT is support for large files, which the camera probably does not need?
Windows refuses to format a 128 GB card with FAT; those users have to use external utils. Also, most cameras also do videos, and those can be larger than 2 GiB. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXefzqAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1c+hAJ4ghYe6VJ9KBgtgKGnxUZd2r95UygCdHDfFJGPrwNY8jas2ix32KGn2GJw= =ClIR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/12/2019 16.50, James Knott wrote:
On 2019-12-04 09:40 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine.
IIRC, by default, Linux does not read/write exFAT, which is commonly used on flash.
Should change soon. Microsoft opened or published the format.
I came across it again last week, when I bought that 128 GB pen drive. VFAT is an ancient format, introduced with Windows 95, IIRC.
«On 28 August 2019, Microsoft published the exFAT specification for the first time[7], and new driver was included in Linux kernel version 5.4.» <https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/exfat-specification> -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 15.40, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The difference in behaviour between the two interfaces is bad enough, but what is really weird is that it takes a 3rd device to "reset" the card.
It would be interesting to find out the formatting details as done on the laptops and the camera. I think that would be "on topic" for us, if we learn out how to do it "properly".
Sector/block size perhaps? Filesystem?
The Nikon camera just puts a single partition, all space, formatted for vfat. It's very fast.
What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine.
Weird. My laptops have no problem accessing my Nikon formatted cards. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXefwqwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1YU5AJ4r7XAYlriw5i39gkbPP4u+0csS5gCcDQ564+eO4EWiIsJQa0xmqOdvzaE= =/NGX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 04/12/2019 15.40, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The difference in behaviour between the two interfaces is bad enough, but what is really weird is that it takes a 3rd device to "reset" the card.
It would be interesting to find out the formatting details as done on the laptops and the camera. I think that would be "on topic" for us, if we learn out how to do it "properly".
Sector/block size perhaps? Filesystem?
The Nikon camera just puts a single partition, all space, formatted for vfat. It's very fast.
What is annoying is that both laptops (mmc or usb interface) both end up not being able to access the card, whereas the camera is fine.
Weird. My laptops have no problem accessing my Nikon formatted cards.
Exactly! Formatting with the camera fixes the problem. The problem is, if anything, the other way around. The card - somehow - suffers some sort of mistreatment when used in the Lenovo (mmc), which is not easily fixed on Linux. I haven't tried writing anything directly to such a card. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 04/12/2019 à 14:53, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
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On 04/12/2019 14.26, Per Jessen wrote:
This isn't really very on-topic, but I though should add this quick follow-up.
I'm not sure there was actually anything wrong with the Kingston card (16Gb, maybe 2 years old) I almost threw away. I put it aside and started working with a new Sandisk card, also 16Gb. After a little while, copying stuff to and fro, booting the nanopi, changing something etc - sudenyl it also developed some I/O problem. Odd messages in the kernel buffer, and unable to mount, then unable to even fsck. Partition table cannot be read ....
This all happened with my Lenovo laptop. I began to have this gnawing doubt, and thought I would try an older Toshiba laptop. Hmm, same problem - then it occurred to me I had been in the very same situation maybe a year back.
Solution - put the SD card in my Nikon camera (immediately complains the card needs formatting), format it - et voila!, no problem any more. Did the samne with the Kingston card, also works now.
The difference between the two laptops - in the Lenovo the SD card is available as /dev/mmcblk0, in the Toshiba as /dev/sdb. (via USB).
The difference in behaviour between the two interfaces is bad enough, but what is really weird is that it takes a 3rd device to "reset" the card.
It would be interesting to find out the formatting details as done on the laptops and the camera. I think that would be "on topic" for us, if we learn out how to do it "properly".
Sector/block size perhaps? Filesystem?
may be simply better hardware. I could use card on my EOS5DMKIII at a speed I never could have in my laptop. hardware/driver combination have to be very good in photo camera (specially for video) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 04/12/2019 à 14:26, Per Jessen a écrit :
Solution - put the SD card in my Nikon camera (immediately complains the card needs formatting), format it - et voila!, no problem any more. Did the samne with the Kingston card, also works now.
I also had similar solution, but the card failed again soon later :-( given the price, I don't keep them jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 14.26, Per Jessen wrote:
The difference in behaviour between the two interfaces is bad enough, but what is really weird is that it takes a 3rd device to "reset" the card.
I just remembered one issue I had with a tablet: Android would refuse the card after some time. Said it was bad and umounted it. The card tested perfect in my laptop, even when using a dedicated Windows program to test them. I returned the card, showing the error message from Android, buying another brand or model right there, which is working well years later. The shop technical guy was puzzled. It was a brand name good and relatively expensive card. Said he would investigate, but I don't know what came out of it. They just noted not to sell that card with those tablets. ... I located the receipt. The one that failed was: Sandisk MicroSDXC 64GB Ultra Android Clase 10 UHS-1 24€ Replaced with: Samsung MicroSDXC EVO+ 64GB Clase 10 - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXegEegAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1RodAJ0TQHejUus4u+mc1BnEz3uunNz2YwCfXrWA19af31hGfTMC32X93IOlKnQ= =u/Ic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 04/12/2019 à 20:09, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I just remembered one issue I had with a tablet: Android would refuse the card after some time. Said it was bad and umounted it.
I had similar problem but not with old card. The 64Gb card was formatted extfat in a camera (gx80 panasonic), and the tablet couldn't read exfat without an expensive driver (https://www.paragon-software.com/free/exfat-ntfs-fat32-hfs-android/# - can be tested free for some time) but my 2 phones do read extfat natively, so I didn't really care, but I formatted the card in the tablet and the camera didn't protest jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/2019 20.31, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 04/12/2019 à 20:09, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I just remembered one issue I had with a tablet: Android would refuse the card after some time. Said it was bad and umounted it.
I had similar problem but not with old card.
It was not an old card. I bought it on 2016-08-10, returned it on 2016-08-11. One day. The "some time" in the paragraph above was then hours at most. At the repair desk of the shop we inserted or initialized the card, then I went to have lunch while waiting for Android to reject it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXegNlAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1T6aAJ9UsxxMINTkCoTIYDnwJEwy9LUSNgCfY0tmOFfstfL0O3LBYMljmF/JTYU= =+e62 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Howorth -
David T-G -
James Knott -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen