BandiPat wrote:

From what I understand, the source DVD can still be acquired, you just have to ask now, sadly. I too think it's a poor decision not to include it. I believe instructions are in the package for how you go about asking for a source DVD from Novell/SuSE.

I guess they decided most users won't need the source, and they could save the cost of the extra disk. As long as the source is available, they're complying with GPL. Don't forget, buying the package is not the only way to obtain SuSE 10, so $60 for what we get, isn't out of line. Compare that with what you pay and get with XP.

On Thursday 06 October 2005 5:36 pm, Carl Hartung wrote:

Hi Scott,

A lower price makes SUSE more affordable to more people. I understand your feelings, but you're not being entirely rational. You paid a lot more for 9.3, too. Did you think they could cut your price that much *and* ship all the same "goodies"? Not realistic.

Sorry, but I didn't ask them to drop the price. I was perfectly happy with the $89 price of the Pro package. If they offered a $89 10.0 package, I would have ordered it without hesitation. The rationale I saw posted either here or on opensuse.org for the price drop was that they got rid of the paper admin manual (another bad decision in my mind). So now, not only do we not get the admin manual, but we also get cheaper packaging.

Take some of the money you saved this time and buy a $5 "plastic holder" that fancies you and "quit yer bitchin'" IMHO, the packaging is but a "needle" in a very large "haystack" of quality software. And I was taught early on "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

You know, I'm sure I will have nice things to say about the software itself when I get around to installing it on my desktop and my laptop. But I haven't done that yet, and I see absolutely nothing inappropriate or wrong about expressing my complete disappointment in the new packaging. I'm a paying customer and I truly feel Novell has made a bad decision here, I see no reason to hold back my opinion. If you take that as 'not being nice' or bashing SUSE, then you are reading something into my message that I did not intentionally mean to be there. I like SUSE, I have purchased each release since I started with Linux (SUSE 9.0 on) and my comments here are solely intended to hopefully influence Novell to reconsider what I see as some bad decisions on packaging. Scott -- POPFile, the OpenSource EMail Classifier http://popfile.sourceforge.net/ Linux 2.6.11.4-21.9-default x86_64 SuSE Linux 9.3 (x86-64)

On Thursday, October 06, 2005 @ 5:18 PM, James Knott wrote:

Scott Leighton wrote:

...

So now, not only do we not get the admin manual, but we also get cheaper packaging.

Perhaps they should offer the manual as a separate item, just like OpenOffice does. Another option, would be to get an updated SuSE Bible, from Wiley. That way, if you want the manual, you can buy it from the local book store.

Why not put the documentation on a separate CD and include it? Or for that matter, they could put both manuals on a CD. Greg Wallace

Scott, On Thursday 06 October 2005 18:31, Scott Leighton wrote:

...

The manuals are there in PDF format. That's not the same as having a paper manual that you can pick up and read thru, make notes on, take to the john, etc.

Kinko's will be more than happy to turn those PDFs into nicely bound hardcopy manuals.

Scott

Randall Schulz

On Friday 7 October 2005 03:31, Scott Leighton wrote: -------------[ 8< ]----------------------------------------------

The manuals are there in PDF format. That's not the same as having a paper manual that you can pick up and read thru, make notes on, take to the john, etc.

Maybe it's time for a notebook with WiFi then? Or a Palm Pilot? Even on the john usefull.. ;)

Scott

-- POPFile, the OpenSource EMail Classifier http://popfile.sourceforge.net/ Linux 2.6.11.4-21.9-default x86_64 SuSE Linux 9.3 (x86-64)

-- Peter M. Groen Open Systems Development Klipperwerf 12 2317 DZ Leiden T: +31-(0)-71-5216317 M: +31-(0)6-29563390 E: info@osdev.xs4all.nl

James Knott writes:

Unless they've changed things, the manuals should already be on the CDs or DVD. They certainly were on previous versions. They were also available for download.

They are - check the docu directories on CD1 and the DVD, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Thursday 06 October 2005 21:24, Scott Leighton wrote:

On Thursday 06 October 2005 6:17 pm, James Knott wrote:

...

Scott Leighton wrote:

...

So now, not only do we not get the admin manual, but we also get cheaper packaging.

Perhaps they should offer the manual as a separate item, just like OpenOffice does. Another option, would be to get an updated SuSE Bible, from Wiley. That way, if you want the manual, you can buy it from the local book store.

Personally, I would love it if they would bring back the admin manual. I'm willing to pay for it, it's not a case of expecting them to give it to us as a freebie.

I liked the Admin manual too, but right now, I'm still beaming about receiving this boxed set without paying additional shipping charges. Kewl! Sure beats a poke in the eye with a sharp stick... Kevin (and what am I doing typing to this list at 02:00 a.m. ??)

On 10/06/2005 07:17 PM, James Knott wrote:

Scott Leighton wrote:

...

So now, not only do we not get the admin manual, but we also get cheaper packaging.

Perhaps they should offer the manual as a separate item, just like OpenOffice does. Another option, would be to get an updated SuSE Bible, from Wiley. That way, if you want the manual, you can buy it from the local book store. You mean the version for SuSE 10.0, that will hit the shelves about the time 12.0 is released? :)

On Thursday 06 October 2005 21:11, Scott Leighton wrote: <snip>

Sorry, but I didn't ask them to drop the price. I was perfectly happy with the $89 price of the Pro package. If they offered a $89 10.0 package, I would have ordered it without hesitation.

This completely misses the point. The product has been redesigned and made less expensive so more people can afford to buy it. My comment was a statement of fact, not fodder for debate about the decision. It is irrelevant that you or I or others on this list might be willing to pay more. We're already converted. Novell/SUSE needs to convert more new users, expand the market, make a profit and grow the business. You slamming the packaging publicly certainly doesn't help in that regard. And I'll bet there are a lot of people who think that almost $100 U.S. is too much money to charge for an OS that is essentially "free". I'm not saying this position is right, so don't quibble with me over the details, I'm just pointing out the opinion exists and Novell/SUSE has to contend with it. There are also many people who believe printing bulky manuals on paper is old fashioned and bad for the environment; that doing so adds unnecessary cost to the distribution and is redundant, anyway, since full documentation is provided on the media and available on-line. <snippage>

You know, I'm sure I will have nice things to say about the software itself when I get around to installing it on my desktop and my laptop.

I'd have respected your opinion a lot more if you'd held off carping until you *did* have some nice things to say. Then your post would have had some balance to it instead of being just a rush-to-post knee jerk reaction.

... I see absolutely nothing inappropriate or wrong about expressing my complete disappointment in the new packaging.

Should I conclude from this "ham fisted" (indelicate) approach that you wouldn't think twice about publicly berating your wife and humiliating her over a small mistake? Please tell me this is not the case...

I'm a paying customer and I truly feel Novell has made a bad decision here, I see no reason to hold back my opinion.

If you're truly a SUSE supporter, why don't you write a thoughtful letter to them privately? Or at least wait until enough shipments have landed that a full spectrum of opinions can be sampled...

If you take that as 'not being nice' or bashing SUSE, then you are reading something into my message that I did not intentionally mean to be there.

How else am I supposed to interpret your "complete disappointment"?

I like SUSE, I have purchased each release since I started with Linux (SUSE 9.0 on) and my comments here are solely intended to hopefully influence Novell to reconsider what I see as some bad decisions on packaging.

Your first post struck me as hasty and ill-timed... it's basically still "launch day" isn't it?... and a lot of people are still looking forward to their pre-orders arriving, right? So, it strikes me as a little mean-spirited of you to rush to post a public criticism before others are in a position to respond. You can't avoid the fact that what you wrote was completely one-sided and you failed to take the lower price into account. Also, wasn't a detailed product description available at the time you ordered? How could the product you received then be so "completely disappointing"? Did you not read the description? - Carl

I wonder what is worse, people who top post, or people who quote vast reams of text, just to say something like "Well said, Carl" PS, the only soldiers I am thankful for are the ones who, in 1812, made certain that I would not be born an American. On 10/07/2005 12:30 AM, JB wrote:

On Friday 07 October 2005 00:04, Carl Hartung wrote:

...

On Thursday 06 October 2005 21:11, Scott Leighton wrote: <snip>

...

Sorry, but I didn't ask them to drop the price. I was perfectly happy with the $89 price of the Pro package. If they offered a $89 10.0 package, I would have ordered it without hesitation.

This completely misses the point. The product has been redesigned and made less expensive so more people can afford to buy it. My comment was a statement of fact, not fodder for debate about the decision. It is irrelevant that you or I or others on this list might be willing to pay more. We're already converted. Novell/SUSE needs to convert more new users, expand the market, make a profit and grow the business. You slamming the packaging publicly certainly doesn't help in that regard.

And I'll bet there are a lot of people who think that almost $100 U.S. is too much money to charge for an OS that is essentially "free". I'm not saying this position is right, so don't quibble with me over the details, I'm just pointing out the opinion exists and Novell/SUSE has to contend with it.

There are also many people who believe printing bulky manuals on paper is old fashioned and bad for the environment; that doing so adds unnecessary cost to the distribution and is redundant, anyway, since full documentation is provided on the media and available on-line.

<snippage>

...

You know, I'm sure I will have nice things to say about the software itself when I get around to installing it on my desktop and my laptop.

I'd have respected your opinion a lot more if you'd held off carping until you *did* have some nice things to say. Then your post would have had some balance to it instead of being just a rush-to-post knee jerk reaction.

...

... I see absolutely nothing inappropriate or wrong about expressing my complete disappointment in the new packaging.

Should I conclude from this "ham fisted" (indelicate) approach that you wouldn't think twice about publicly berating your wife and humiliating her over a small mistake? Please tell me this is not the case...

...

I'm a paying customer and I truly feel Novell has made a bad decision here, I see no reason to hold back my opinion.

If you're truly a SUSE supporter, why don't you write a thoughtful letter to them privately? Or at least wait until enough shipments have landed that a full spectrum of opinions can be sampled...

...

If you take that as 'not being nice' or bashing SUSE, then you are reading something into my message that I did not intentionally mean to be there.

How else am I supposed to interpret your "complete disappointment"?

...

I like SUSE, I have purchased each release since I started with Linux (SUSE 9.0 on) and my comments here are solely intended to hopefully influence Novell to reconsider what I see as some bad decisions on packaging.

Your first post struck me as hasty and ill-timed... it's basically still "launch day" isn't it?... and a lot of people are still looking forward to their pre-orders arriving, right? So, it strikes me as a little mean-spirited of you to rush to post a public criticism before others are in a position to respond. You can't avoid the fact that what you wrote was completely one-sided and you failed to take the lower price into account.

Also, wasn't a detailed product description available at the time you ordered? How could the product you received then be so "completely disappointing"? Did you not read the description?

- Carl

Well said Carl!!

On Friday 07 October 2005 10:52 am, JB wrote:

...

I wonder

  That's apparently all you have. I gave fair warning in the subject header, you idiot.

Certainly a professional thing to say.. <PLONK>

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 04:50 -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

I wonder what is worse, people who top post, or people who quote vast reams of text, just to say something like "Well said, Carl"

PS, the only soldiers I am thankful for are the ones who, in 1812, made certain that I would not be born an American.

You just have to love people like this that immediately have to start with the cut downs on America. Show's how petty they are. Come back when you are an adult. Brad Dameron SeaTab Software www.seatab.com

On Friday 07 October 2005 17:11, Darryl Gregorash For me if someone hated me I'd rather know about it. You know nothing of hate , I have many broken bones, and survived many things because someone hated me. You seem to be using free speech here. Am I a victim , no I'm a survivor, because I am tougher and I will be tougher in the future. Until you reach the point of having to pick yourself off the ground and the blood running off of you and keep going. What about the other victims of hate the one who are not in the political accepted norm, I.E. politically correct. Survivors are forged in the fires of hell. Sam Davis wrote:

On 10/07/2005 10:41 AM, Brad Dameron wrote:

...

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 04:50 -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...

I wonder what is worse, people who top post, or people who quote vast reams of text, just to say something like "Well said, Carl"

PS, the only soldiers I am thankful for are the ones who, in 1812, made certain that I would not be born an American.

You just have to love people like this that immediately have to start with the cut downs on America. Show's how petty they are. Come back when you are an adult.

As opposed to the other guy's "signature", you mean?

Besides, I'm not cutting down "America" -- I am part of it, in case you forgot your geography. Perhaps you mean cutting down the USA -- not doing that either. I'm only taking one ignoramus to task for his obviously bigoted view of the world.

I am thankful for 1812, because up here, we have human rights laws that take precedence over someone's right to "free speech" -- I like it that way, thank you very much. I like it that vagueness of expression is not a defence against a charge of incitement to violence.

I love this country and the way it is, but I also admire quite a number of qualities of the USA (not your judicial or political systems, though). You have a pride of your country that is nearly absent up here -- but I will always object when that pride becomes the arrogant assumption that you are somehow endowed with the God-given right to meddle in the affairs of a people nearly 20 thousand kilometers away, then accuse them of terrorism when they get mad at you. What is even more galling in this instance is that that assumption is expressed in a most vicious, vitriolic and bigoted manner -- and your Constitution probably protects his right to say it.

Such a Constitutional right to publicly express your hatred towards others is totally absent in Canada, and for that I am thankful for the war of 1812.

On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 03:11:00PM -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

On 10/07/2005 10:41 AM, Brad Dameron wrote:

...

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 04:50 -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...

I wonder what is worse, people who top post, or people who quote vast reams of text, just to say something like "Well said, Carl"

PS, the only soldiers I am thankful for are the ones who, in 1812, made certain that I would not be born an American.

You just have to love people like this that immediately have to start with the cut downs on America. Show's how petty they are. Come back when you are an adult. As opposed to the other guy's "signature", you mean?

Besides, I'm not cutting down "America" -- I am part of it, in case you forgot your geography. Perhaps you mean cutting down the USA -- not doing that either. I'm only taking one ignoramus to task for his obviously bigoted view of the world.

OK I missed some of this and have no idea how this got started. Darn huh?

I am thankful for 1812, because up here, we have human rights laws that take precedence over someone's right to "free speech" -- I like it that way, thank you very much. I like it that vagueness of expression is not a defence against a charge of incitement to violence.

I love this country and the way it is, but I also admire quite a number of qualities of the USA (not your judicial or political systems, though). You have a pride of your country that is nearly absent up here -- but I will always object when that pride becomes the arrogant assumption that you are somehow endowed with the God-given right to meddle in the affairs of a people nearly 20 thousand kilometers away, then accuse them of terrorism when they get mad at you. What is even more galling in this instance is that that assumption is expressed in a most vicious, vitriolic and bigoted manner -- and your Constitution probably protects his right to say it.

Such a Constitutional right to publicly express your hatred towards others is totally absent in Canada, and for that I am thankful for the war of 1812.

The fact your thankfull for any war at all is disgusting at best. -Allen.

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 07:07:13PM -0400, suse_gasjr4wd@mac.com wrote:

On 10/7/05 6:23 PM, "Allen" wrote:

...

The fact your thankfull for any war at all is disgusting at best.

-Allen.

humm- I'm thankful (sp) for one war... It has something to do with the 4th of July...

-- Thanks, George

Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. Jerry Garcia

And you have this for a sig?

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Friday 07 October 2005 21:07, suse_gasjr4wd@mac.com wrote: I've been looking at the comments on 10.0. This I've gleaned, cost about $60 US, wrapper doesn't matter ( for me), no manuals, if I'm correct, thats an extra cost. So to do like most I would download and if can update from the free version, and see if it takes to 9.1(had to configure this machine from hardware up,get the bios to lie to the CPU, etc.) So weighing the cost of the upgrade package to a workaround) A suggestion to Novell Make one version to compete with Microsoft and other Linux versions and build on it to build better customer base. Most who are comfortable with SUSE version will stay, but my feeling the newer package is for whole new customer base which is a good business practice.

On 10/7/05 7:45 PM, "Allen" wrote:

...

...

humm- I'm thankful (sp) for one war... It has something to do with the 4th of July...

-- Thanks, George

Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. Jerry Garcia

And you have this for a sig?

Yea... (actually I made sure that one showed up from my random list)

But what's your point?

Maybe you like these?

How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. Ronald Reagan

Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself. Mark Twain

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."  -Abraham Lincoln

"They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

You do not merely want to be considered just the best of the best. You want to be considered the only ones who do what you do. Jerry Garcia

You made the innuendo that all war is bad.

...

The fact your thankfull for any war at all is disgusting at best.

My point is not ALL war is bad. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Dam! How did I get sucked into this thread?!?! --

Thanks, George

``Badges? We ain't got no badges! We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinking badges!'', ``The Treasure of the Sierra Madre,'' 1948.

On Friday 07 October 2005 06:47, Darryl Gregorash wrote: <snip>

They should get rid of the CDs too, as all those plastics factories are bad for the environment -- far worse, in fact, than cutting down a few trees.

"cutting down a few trees" is a poor attempt to gloss over the plain truth that hard copy books are manufactured goods requiring lots of raw materials, chemicals and energy to produce. I've waded through two feet of paper sludge working in the mills and can tell you the volumes of energy and chemicals consumed are enormous... almost beyond comprehension... just for the paper. I'm talking about banks of machines three to ten wide, each the height and width and length of a small freight train... only ten times louder (ear protectors, hard hats and safety goggles are mandatory)... and they run 24 x 7 x 365. The fumes are toxic and the exhaust never ends. This is just the *paper*. Add to that all of the inks and staples and glues and the transporting of same plus the printing and binding equipment, all the energy they consume plus the parts and tools and chemicals needed to maintain them... it soon becomes apparent the issue is hugely bigger than just "cutting down a few trees." Then there's the added manpower and transportation costs of distributing them (mostly diesel & kerosene.) So, you spend all that money producing an extravagant product that will be obsolete in a year and build that extra cost into the price of your product. Is that how you would suggest Novell/SUSE should lead in this industry? Is it supposed to be in the business of producing wasteful consumables? I think not... In fact, now that I've pondered this sufficiently, maybe it's a good idea to start encouraging Novell/SUSE to build a "pay as you download" subscription site for the retail version and scrap shipping a physical product entirely! (Is that too much like Linspire?)

There are also many people who are unable to read an online manual.

Let them print whatever they need to meet their personal requirement. The price of everybody else's product shouldn't be driven up just to meet the needs of this small segment of the market.

I can usually remember where something is in a printed book, plus/minus 5 pages, after I've read it once. In 20 years, I have yet to begin to develop the same ability with an online manual.

That's what "bookmarks" are for. And, when bookmarks aren't available, text editors make great "notepads" (shiver). I keep .txt files containing notes parked in the same directories as all of the fixed, published documents I have and I've done this for many, many years. It is very effective. Every time I find something noteworthy, or I'll be gone/busy for several days and want to pick up exactly where I left off, I make a note of it in the text file. Easy peasy, as an old girlfriend would say.

Besides, there is just some quality about a printed SuSe manual on one's bookshelf, that "SuSE admin manual.pdf" doesn't quite seem to match, particularly if you went to a SuSE trade show and asked Andreas to autograph it for you.

I could see this with a first edition, or something. But somehow, I think the time and expense and investment made in producing hard copy books should be limited to those you'd expect would be worth owning decades or even centuries from now. At this stage of the game, with everything going digital, big, heavy "consumable" ("disposable"?) books are now almost offensive to me they are so wasteful. Who knows? Maybe I've just worked myself up into a lather over nothing... maybe I should chill out, throw caution to the wind and order a couple of extra phone books or something. Maybe that would make me "fit in" better... - Carl

On 10/7/05, Carl Hartung wrote: <snip>

I could see this with a first edition, or something. But somehow, I think the time and expense and investment made in producing hard copy books should be limited to those you'd expect would be worth owning decades or even centuries from now. At this stage of the game, with everything going digital, big, heavy "consumable" ("disposable"?) books are now almost offensive to me they are so wasteful.

Who knows? Maybe I've just worked myself up into a lather over nothing... maybe I should chill out, throw caution to the wind and order a couple of extra phone books or something. Maybe that would make me "fit in" better...

I agree completely ... sending the printed material to everyone is just wastage. The less paper the better. Having said that, I am still not as comfortable with online materials as printed. But I can print what I must have. I wonder whether instead of PDF, it might make more sense to send the docs in a portable "wiki" format, such that we could update, make notes, add to at will? I personally would find that much nicer ... PDF is a pain, IMO. Wiki utilizing the search capabilities of the browser, and having the ability to edit the material for my own purposes ... now that would be nice! here is one possible approach: http://www.tiddlywiki.com/ from the site: Welcome to TiddlyWiki, an experimental MicroContent WikiWikiWeb built by JeremyRuston. It's written in HTML, CSS and JavaScript to run on any modern browser without needing any ServerSide logic. It allows anyone to create personal SelfContained hypertext documents that can be posted to any WebServer, sent by email or kept on a USB thumb drive to make a WikiOnAStick. This is revision 1.2.35 of TiddlyWiki, and is published under an OpenSourceLicense.

On Friday 07 October 2005 12:03, Peter Van Lone wrote:

here is one possible approach:

http://www.tiddlywiki.com/

Thanks for the info and link, Peter. I'll make a point to check it out soon. It's a great idea! regards, - Carl

On October Friday 07 2005 12:17 pm, James Knott wrote:

Carl Hartung wrote:

...

On Friday 07 October 2005 06:47, Darryl Gregorash wrote: <snip> <snip> Many years ago, I used to work across the tracks from a paper mill. The stuff in the air made it hard to breath at times and I'd often find little yellow spots on the car.

As I recall the scent of the air when the mills were running immediately made people , who had reproduced , wonder if the diaper pail had tipped over or lost it's lid somehow.. It *IS* a smell one absolutely NEVER forgets. -- j registered linux user #363029 Mornings: Evolution in action. Only the grumpy will survive.

Hi Darryl, I agreed with your assessment on the environmental impact of multiple CDs. I just forgot to mention it ;-) <snip>

An attactive alternative for those who want it, but just as the cost of everyone's product shouldn't be driven up just to meet the needs of a few, such an offering to satisfy many should not unfairly limit the options of the few. Quite a few people here have suggested they don't want a manual aimed at the average home user, rather they want something for the experienced Linux user (as do I). I see no reason why both audiences could not be targetted.

Again, I concur. I once worked at a software company where I not only sold products and supported customers, I sometimes had to come in very early weekdays or on Saturdays to fix/calibrate our diskette duplicator (5.25"). We produced serialized, licensed packages in 'a la carte' fashion... source code to some.. compiled to others... single user docs *with* technical manuals to VADs... multiuser docs *without* technical manuals to large endusers... and so on. Maybe an 'a la carte' sales menu covering the entire spectrum of possibilities, priced accordingly, would be a good solution? The nice part about this approach is it can evolve as customer demands and expectations evolve, so obsoleted items wane and get pulled as new products (even spontaneous additions for promotional perks) are added.

As for electronic bookmarks in an electronic file, they don't work for me. I remember the general contents of entire paragraphs, not chapter or section titles, and certainly not the names of electronic bookmarks. The text files that seem to work for you are useless for me -- I have to wade through everything to find the reference I want, which is what I have to do with the bare file anyway.

A reasonably priced hard copy Administrator's manual is a rational expectation... if it is well written to withstand becoming obsolete too quickly. And, with today's technology, it is possible to produce books like this on demand. It makes more sense to have Novell/SUSE consolidate and coordinate the order fulfillment, though, given the economies of scale available with bulk (not mass) production. It could be a separate line item not shipped by default, and you retain the option to print it yourself if you don't like the OEM price. This kind of approach covers the 1 DVD vs. 2 DVDs vs. 5 CDs vs. subscription download issue, as well.

You still have to pay the piper, Carl.

That's a fact. Physics 101 All one can hope for is to let technology evolve and encourage people to evolve along with it, particularly when it takes a turn towards better stewardship of our natural resources.

If you have an ongoing need for them, by all means -- otherwise, your sarcasm is unbecoming.

Sorry... this comment wasn't directed towards you, Darryl, and I didn't mean to convey sarcasm, either. It was more a general expression of frustration over how far we've come vs. how far we have yet to go. regards, - Carl

This would be perfect. Everyone could get exactly what he felt he needed, and no one would have to take what he didn't want. Well, if the powers-that-be at Novell/SUSE are interested, I've written and integrated this type of 'a la carte' ordering system a number of times before. :-) I'm sure there are also others on this list who'd be happy to

On Friday 07 October 2005 16:53, Darryl Gregorash wrote: participate. I'm not 'volunteering', mind you. When it looks like work, smells like work, adds to the gray hairs and takes time from the family, I fire up the time and billing module. ;-)

Emphasis on reasonably priced, though.. in this neck of western Canada, a decent administrator's manual is around CA$75 to 85. I don't know where that price comes from, but it is outrageous. Novell could probably do much better for around US$20, which for me would be less than 30 bucks.

They could undoubtedly get a decent price just by consolidating the orders into bulk on-demand production runs, but determining what an actual price might look like without some proper research is impossible... too many variables. The last low volume administration type book I ordered from nerdbooks.com, for example, was about $50 U.S. plus three or so bucks UPS Ground shipping. It contained 1,200 pages of content (almost no 'filler'.)

Print it myself? I dunno...

I was thinking more along the lines of you bringing the CD in to a Kinko's or similar place and having them print from the .pdf files.... this /has/ to be cheaper than burning through a bunch of consumer ink cartridges, as you alluded to.

OK, apologies. This thread has brought out a lot of hot tempers, and I'm a little testy today :)

Quite alright! - Carl

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 14:53 -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

On 10/07/2005 11:41 AM, Carl Hartung wrote:

...

Hi Darryl,

Maybe an 'a la carte' sales menu covering the entire spectrum of possibilities, priced accordingly, would be a good solution? The nice part This would be perfect. Everyone could get exactly what he felt he needed, and no one would have to take what he didn't want.

A reasonably priced hard copy Administrator's manual is a rational expectation... if it is well written to withstand becoming obsolete too quickly.<snip> you retain the option to print it yourself if you don't like the OEM price.

Emphasis on reasonably priced, though.. in this neck of western Canada, a decent administrator's manual is around CA$75 to 85. I don't know where that price comes from, but it is outrageous. Novell could probably do much better for around US$20, which for me would be less than 30 bucks.

Print it myself? I dunno, I have an ancient Brother that uses HP-LJII toner cartridges, and those are 100 bucks here. Even the generic ones are expensive, when you can find them. I could get a new printer for that much, if I had that much to spare :)

Maybe Staples Business depot can give you a quote on printing one up.

Now you see why I want Novell/SuSE to print the manual for me? :)

On Thursday 06 October 2005 22:00, Barry Premeaux wrote:

Carl,

When I ordered the 9.3 Pro upgrade, I got both DVDś and CDś in a decent holder along with the Admin book. If we have to pay the same price for 10.0as the 9.3 Pro upgrade, why can´t we expect to get the same materials?

Barry

Hi Barry, I'm not Novell/SUSE, so this question is really misdirected. But, since you've asked, my perspective is that 10.0 is a completely new product... in essence, newly designed and priced from the ground up. For 30 bucks less, you get one DVD instead of two and a hard copy 'Starter' book of some kind instead of the two hard copy User and Admin Guides. For your comparison to the upgrade, there is one less DVD and the 'Starter' guide is substituted for the Admin Guide. I guess I might look at this differently since I've spent a lot of years on the software publishing side, but a new product is... well, a new product. If your market research tells you that most of the source DVDs you landed in the past never got pulled from their jackets, only gathered dust... - if that research also tells you broadband is pervasive enough now that people can download whatever is "missing" from the box without too much difficulty; friends, relatives, employers, neighbors, coworkers, schools & libraries... whomever/wherever... someone will have the bandwidth they need for an afternoon... - if that research also tells you newcomers to Linux need better "hard copy" help while installing the product; that a special 'starter' book should be written to fulfill that need because the Admin and User guides weren't working so well for that group; that you could drop the price *and* provide such a new book... - if that research led management to believe the price point was too high and inhibiting sales to prospective new Linux users... - if it said it was imperative to keep the *software* quality high but to also meet the lower price point... get my drift? These people know the balancing act that is their business and it is impossible to make money and please absolutely everybody. Time will tell if the approach they've taken is correct. I certainly hope so, because it's a stellar series and the people at Novell/SUSE deserve our support. - Carl

Hmmm, no source DVD? Ok, I can live with that as I have never needed it and, as has been pointed out, I could request it if I wanted. But I do feel that the change to printed documentation is a bad step. Consider this, Microsoft started out by shipping a decent combined admin/user manual with MSDOS and then the early versions of Windows. I think it was from about Win Me that they stopped. All documentation was from then on included on the CD. So what happens if you can't access that CD (or DVD in this case)? Ok, most people have access to the net and can ask for help but it's not the same as having that satisfaction of sitting there with a manual and working out where things have gone wrong. Plus, hands up all those who have taken the admin manual to the bathroom for a good read :-) Or, perhpas like me have sunk into a nice relaxing bath and gone through the admin manual to see what could be learned? Sorry, I honestly think that it is a wrong move to change the printed documentation in this manner. I'd like to add that what has always swung it for me in buying the boxed set is the fact that it comes with two decent manuals. I do hope this idea is reconsidered. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Thursday 06 October 2005 19:52, Scott Leighton wrote:

...

Well, 10.0 just arrived at my house, and I am disappointed right off the bat by the packaging.

Unlike 9.3, which had a very nice plastic holder for all the CDs and DVDs, 10.0 has a cheap cardboard box with the 5 CDs and 1 DVD contained within with paper wrappers.

The graphics are nice, but the overall box package is a major step backwards from where it was with SUSE Pro 9.3.

Scott

Hi Scott,

A lower price makes SUSE more affordable to more people. I understand your feelings, but you're not being entirely rational. You paid a lot more for 9.3, too. Did you think they could cut your price that much *and* ship all the same "goodies"? Not realistic.

Take some of the money you saved this time and buy a $5 "plastic holder" that fancies you and "quit yer bitchin'" IMHO, the packaging is but a "needle" in a very large "haystack" of quality software. And I was taught early on "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

What about you?

- Carl ========== Carl, I don't see where you figure Novell cut the price? Stop and think a minute about it. The box we get now is not comparable to the Pro version that was out, not at all. It's not even comparable to the Update box we got before and it was only $59.95! From what I can see,

On Thursday 06 October 2005 08:36 pm, Carl Hartung wrote: this should be another $5 to $10 less than the Update package, then we would have a price cut. Without a source DVD & Admin printed manual, the only price cut anyone saw was Novell. I do agree that the CD/DVD holders are of little value and as inexpensive as they are in the stores, so cut the whining and get a better one! ;o) The real big thing I'm wondering about is; are there stickers, etc in the box this time!! ;o) end of line Lee

Greg Wallace wrote:

My box contained --

*) Media *) START-UP Manual (user manual) *) Linux magazine subscription promo *) Novell Linux Small Business Suite / Novell Connection Magazine promo *) Digital River Packing List (interesting that it was sealed up in the box with everything else)

I also got a small, empty(?) plastic bag with mine.

On Friday 07 October 2005 14:29, Walt Frampus wrote:

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 09:02 -0400, James Knott wrote:

...

I also got a small, empty(?) plastic bag with mine.

Did you get the Deluxe edition??? This whole discussion on what is in the box is stupid. The only thing that matters is the software. Everyone is acting like a child at Christmas who disregards the present and plays with the box..

Walt

You get software AND a bag and a box? Too much! To be honest, the bag was enough for me. With this whole Box thing, and now software, I can see myself needing a lie down. Wow, it really is like Christmas. Except warmer. And less snowy. -- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB UK Tel: 0161 834 7961 Fax: 0161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk

On Friday 07 October 2005 06:47, jfweber@bellsouth.net wrote:

<snip>

...

You get software AND a bag and a box? Too much! To be honest, the bag was enough for me. With this whole Box thing, and now software, I can see myself needing a lie down. Wow, it really is like Christmas. Except warmer. And less snowy.

I've heard rumors that the bag contains a microscopic space fleet. I can't wait until my box arrives to see if I get a plastic bag, too. Hey, there might even be a DVD included.

Snow ? SNOW !!!??!!!??!!!! What is that stuff ?

It is white. I saw it once when I was about 20 or 21 and living in Germany. Freaking cold!

All you EU types can always *winter* in the Caribbean where , so far as I have been able to discover doesn't have this phenoman I know for certain that no "weather event" here has that name attached to it.

Eh, they just to to Mallorca. :) -- Kai Ponte www.perfectreign.com linux - genuine windows replacement part

On Friday 14 October 2005 08:49 am, Allen wrote:

Lol wuss, you call that cold? Heh it may get cool there, but here in Michigan, our Average temp in Winter, is around 0 degrees F, and on average, 5 snow storms and a blizzard or two which drops 3 feet of snow. And I wouldn't trade that, Like the Ramones said in "Danny says" "It Ain't Christmas if there ain't no snow".

A bit of exaggeration....... Over a period of 30 years, the average for Detroit was: Dec - 28.3 Jan - 22.9 Feb - 25.4 (living in northern MI)

On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 18:11 -0400, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Fri, 2005-10-14 at 09:30 -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

On Friday 14 October 2005 08:49 am, Allen wrote:

...

Lol wuss, you call that cold? Heh it may get cool there, but here in Michigan, our Average temp in Winter, is around 0 degrees F, and on average, 5 snow storms and a blizzard or two which drops 3 feet of snow. And I wouldn't trade that, Like the Ramones said in "Danny says" "It Ain't Christmas if there ain't no snow".

A bit of exaggeration.......

Over a period of 30 years, the average for Detroit was:

Dec - 28.3 Jan - 22.9 Feb - 25.4

(living in northern MI)

Hmmmm...

...

From http://www.uscampus.com/research_options/explore_us/state_mi.htm

Temperature Range: Spring Temperature (range):2C / 14C (Detroit) Summer Temperature (range):17C / 29C (Detroit) Fall Temperature (range):6C / 17C (Detroit) Winter Temperature (range):-7C / 0C (Detroit)

Not sure where they get their info from. I lived in metro Detroit (northern burbs) most of my life before moving to SW Florida in 1996 and I don't recall the winter temps being that cold.

Duh. they are in Celsius. But still they were not around 0 degrees F. Temps could go below 0 but it wasn't an average. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On 07/10/05, Walt Frampus wrote:

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 09:02 -0400, James Knott wrote:

...

I also got a small, empty(?) plastic bag with mine.

Did you get the Deluxe edition??? This whole discussion on what is in the box is stupid. The only thing that matters is the software. Everyone is acting like a child at Christmas who disregards the present and plays with the box..

Walt

Sorry Walt but I disagree, it's not just the software. If I want just Linux - just the software - then I will look at one of the download varieties. If I want printed manuals and decent support I look to the likes of SuSE or Mandriva. I don't like Mandriva so therefore I turn to SuSE. I like to use and set up SuSE. I have always liked the fact that I can refer to a paper manual rather than end up with a migraine because I'm having to read through pages of an online guide on my screen. So now it would appear that if I do indeed decide to upgrade/update (I'm not going to get into that argument again) to SuSE 10 I might just as well download it and go and purchase a third party book detailing this new release. Where is the sense in that for Novell/SuSE? They will have lost a sale because they decided to stop including a printed paper admin guide. Surely that cannot be good business sense. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Friday 07 October 2005 08:29, Walt Frampus wrote:

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 09:02 -0400, James Knott wrote:

...

I also got a small, empty(?) plastic bag with mine.

Did you get the Deluxe edition??? This whole discussion on what is in the box is stupid. The only thing that matters is the software. Everyone is acting like a child at Christmas who disregards the present and plays with the box..

Walt

Hammer --> nail. -- Stop the invasion of illegal aliens swarming across our borders! If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

On Thursday 06 October 2005 8:25 pm, BandiPat wrote:

The real big thing I'm wondering about is; are there stickers, etc in the box this time!! ;o)

Nope, no stickers. The box contains; 1) Startup Manual 2) 1 Dual Layer DVD & 5 CDs in cardboard box 3) A flyer for Novell's Connection Magazine on one site, Small Business Suite on second side 4) A flyer/ad for Linux Magazine Scott -- POPFile, the OpenSource EMail Classifier http://popfile.sourceforge.net/ Linux 2.6.11.4-21.9-default x86_64 SuSE Linux 9.3 (x86-64)

On Thursday 06 October 2005 11:48 pm, Scott Leighton wrote:

On Thursday 06 October 2005 8:33 pm, Kurt Wall wrote:

...

On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 04:52:47PM -0700, Scott Leighton took 26 lines to

write:

...

...

Well, 10.0 just arrived at my house, and I am disappointed right off the bat by the packaging.

Unlike 9.3, which had a very nice plastic holder for all the CDs and DVDs, 10.0 has a cheap cardboard box with the 5 CDs and 1 DVD contained within with paper wrappers.

The graphics are nice, but the overall box package is a major step backwards from where it was with SUSE Pro 9.3.

Eh, you're paying $30-$40 US less, and you're griping about the box?

First, price isn't the issue.

Second, my frame of reference is SUSE Pro 9.3's package, which contained

1) Admin Manual and User Manual 2) SuSE sticker 3) 2 DVDs, 5 CD's in a nice case

I paid ~ $90 for that product. I would happily pay the same for 10.0

Now, comes SUSE Linux 10.0, ONLY OFFERED IN ONE PACKAGE. It contains;

1) Startup manual 2) 1 DVD, 5 CDs in a cheap cardboard box

I found lot's of value in the 9.3 Pro package, I was pleased when I openned it.

I find no value in the 10.0 package, I need an admin manual a lot more than I need a start up manual (think about it, you only 'start up' once, you admin stuff all the time), and I appreciated the Media holder to protect the media I purchased. The sticker was a nice touch, kind of a thank you to the customer. They are all gone in 10.0, so why bother buying the box set in the first place? Might as well just download the ISO's....

Scott

Sounds like if they are trying to get folks to stop buying the box, they are certainly doing all the right things. Maybe they didn't cut out the retail version like Red Hat did, but they certainly make you wonder why you bothered purchasing it, don't they? Wonder what they will want to charge you for the source DVD. You would think they would offer the Admin manual as a separate purchase too. I'm kinda feeling that Novell/SuSE dropped the ball on the retail package this time. Hope it's not a trend for them. Lee

Greg Wallace wrote:

On Thursday, October 06, 2005 @ 8:00 PM, Lee wrote:

<snip>

...

You would think they would offer the Admin manual as a separate purchase too.

...

I'm kinda feeling that Novell/SuSE dropped the ball on the retail package this time. Hope it's not a trend for them.

...

Lee

Not sure if they could justify special printing just for those who wanted the book, and with a low-volume print run it might be a somewhat expensive book(?).

Perhaps if they were to work with Wiley to produce an updated SuSE Bible and offer it at additional cost with the order or purchase in a bookstore?

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 00:00 -0400, BandiPat wrote:

On Thursday 06 October 2005 11:48 pm, Scott Leighton wrote:

...

On Thursday 06 October 2005 8:33 pm, Kurt Wall wrote:

<snip>

...

Second, my frame of reference is SUSE Pro 9.3's package, which contained

1) Admin Manual and User Manual 2) SuSE sticker 3) 2 DVDs, 5 CD's in a nice case

I paid ~ $90 for that product. I would happily pay the same for 10.0

Now, comes SUSE Linux 10.0, ONLY OFFERED IN ONE PACKAGE. It contains;

1) Startup manual 2) 1 DVD, 5 CDs in a cheap cardboard box

I found lot's of value in the 9.3 Pro package, I was pleased when I openned it.

I find no value in the 10.0 package, I need an admin manual a lot more than I need a start up manual (think about it, you only 'start up' once, you admin stuff all the time), and I appreciated the Media holder to protect the media I purchased. The sticker was a nice touch, kind of a thank you to the customer. They are all gone in 10.0, so why bother buying the box set in the first place? Might as well just download the ISO's....

Scott

---

<snip> I too was not all to happy that the box contained less. But after close inspection it is understandable. On 9.3, all the sources did fit on a single layer DVD, now they would need a double layered DVD (2621 packages require about 5.5 GB) And today i printed the electronic version of the manual: the 9.3 admin manual was about 450 pages, now it is 770 pages!! So it just could not be done for the old price. Perhaps the SuSE product manager should let the customers decide a) for those not able or capable of burning, just sell a nice plastic box with just the DVD's (and stickers) for even less. b) or a deluxe box with all kind of architectures (386, 64, ppc, Sparc, HP-PA, ... and all books (there could/should be more) nicely printed out and longer official support for much much more money. Hans

On 12/10/05, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:

On Wednesday 12 October 2005 16:03, Hans Witvliet wrote: [snip]

...

I too was not all to happy that the box contained less. But after close inspection it is understandable. On 9.3, all the sources did fit on a single layer DVD, now they would need a double layered DVD (2621 packages require about 5.5 GB) And today i printed the electronic version of the manual: the 9.3 admin manual was about 450 pages, now it is 770 pages!! [snip]

450 pages! What did Novell do to 9.3? The Administration Guide I received in **9.2** is 703 numbered pages long. (727 pages in the PDF version.)

The 9.3 Admin manual has 689 pages while the user manual has 285. Well, mind has anyway. It may be different in languages other than British :-) -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Wednesday 12 October 2005 21:43, James P. Bennett wrote:

I concur.  But there is one more consideration.  Having a nicely bound administrator's manual is excellent advertising.

Guys, please give it a rest. This has been done to death already. Whatever the marketing decision was based on, that train has now left the station. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD

On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 08:48:33PM -0700, Scott Leighton took 61 lines to write:

On Thursday 06 October 2005 8:33 pm, Kurt Wall wrote:

...

On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 04:52:47PM -0700, Scott Leighton took 26 lines to write:

...

Well, 10.0 just arrived at my house, and I am disappointed right off the bat by the packaging.

Unlike 9.3, which had a very nice plastic holder for all the CDs and DVDs, 10.0 has a cheap cardboard box with the 5 CDs and 1 DVD contained within with paper wrappers.

The graphics are nice, but the overall box package is a major step backwards from where it was with SUSE Pro 9.3.

Eh, you're paying $30-$40 US less, and you're griping about the box?

First, price isn't the issue.

Second, my frame of reference is SUSE Pro 9.3's package, which contained

1) Admin Manual and User Manual 2) SuSE sticker

I would have liked the sticker.

3) 2 DVDs, 5 CD's in a nice case

I paid ~ $90 for that product. I would happily pay the same for 10.0

So would I. But I paid $60 and got what I paid for. I'm just less inclined to gripe about it, I suppose. Perhaps I should be more demanding? Kurt -- Go climb a gravity well!

* elefino (Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 02:14:56AM -0400)

Kevin (who liked the plastic _badge_ that he got in an early package, better than the mere stickers that have come with the recent releases.... ok, yes I am teasing)

Man, they used to have dustpuppy (suse, no fluff, only feet) and erwin on these stickers ... Ahh, those were the days G

Brad Bourn wrote:

I love to paste those stickers on everything I have.

Would love to have sticker to put in place of "designed for XP/95/?"

Would love to have clone case sqaure suse stickers.

Can they even be purchased?

I bought some from CheapBytes. www.cheapbytes.com

Brad Bourn wrote:

On Friday 07 October 2005 10:44 am, James Knott wrote:

...

I bought some from CheapBytes.

www.cheapbytes.com

I searched their site.

Sorry, no matches for suse sticker.

My mistake. I thought you were referring to Tux stickers.

Gerhard den Hollander wrote:

* James Knott (Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 01:08:34PM -0400)

...

Brad Bourn wrote:

...

On Friday 07 October 2005 10:44 am, James Knott wrote:

...

I bought some from CheapBytes.

www.cheapbytes.com I searched their site.

Sorry, no matches for suse sticker. My mistake. I thought you were referring to Tux stickers.

Hmm, S/H on these would probably cost me more ... Are there any places that seel U/F based linux sticklers ?

What does "U/F" mean? As for places that sell them, you'll just have to do what I did, search.

* James Knott (Sun, Oct 09, 2005 at 08:17:21AM -0400)

Gerhard den Hollander wrote:

...

* James Knott (Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 01:08:34PM -0400)

...

Brad Bourn wrote:

...

On Friday 07 October 2005 10:44 am, James Knott wrote:

...

I bought some from CheapBytes.

www.cheapbytes.com I searched their site.

Sorry, no matches for suse sticker. My mistake. I thought you were referring to Tux stickers.

Hmm, S/H on these would probably cost me more ... Are there any places that seel U/F based linux sticklers ?

What does "U/F" mean? As for places that sell them, you'll just have to do what I did, search.

U/F -> userfriendly www.userfirendly.org Currently listening to: Track 02 Gerhard, == The Acoustic Motorbiker == -- __O John Stewart Mill, of his own free will, =`\<, after half a pint of shandy was particularly ill. (=)/(=) Plato, they say, could stick it away, 'alf a crate of whiskey every day!

Carl William Spitzer IV wrote:

What no medalion to decorate your computer??

some suse version had :-) it decorate my dauther's phone for a number of years :-) jdd -- pour m'écrire, aller sur: http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.net http://arvamip.free.fr