[opensuse] Re: [opensuse-factory] what you can do with KDE3 that you can't do with KDE4.
One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app. In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.
In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4.
Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open). C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
C said the following on 04/08/2012 08:38 AM:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.
In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4.
Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open).
I have to agree, I don't observe the problems James describes. -- The two pillars of `political correctness' are, a) willful ignorance, and b) a steadfast refusal to face the truth -- George MacDonald Fraser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 18:16:42 +0530, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
C said the following on 04/08/2012 08:38 AM:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.
In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4.
Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open).
I have to agree, I don't observe the problems James describes.
somewhere in KDE4's systemsettings there's different settings re. focus, if it follows the mouse or not, per example. don't really remember, haven't messed around with it in a long time. i experience these focus issues with some app.s, always the same ones. pressing <F4> in konqueror, per example, opens a konsole window konqueror's directory, but, at least for me, always behind the calling konqueror window. got used to pressing <alt+tab> in this situation and don't hardly notice it anymore. never bothered to inquire or complain, because it really doesn't bother me. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
C wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott<james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.
In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4. Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open).
C.
It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 19:33:07 +0530, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
C wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott<james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.
In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4. Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open).
C.
It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much.
that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing. i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad. i rather thought you might have enabled it & forgot about it, and therefore were experiencing these issues. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
phanisvara das said the following on 04/08/2012 10:28 AM:
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 19:33:07 +0530, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much.
that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing.
+1. "don't do that, then"
i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad.
I tried it once ... never again! But whatever settings I have, yes when a new window/application comes up then focus switches there. I suppose we could go through the settings one by one, but there so much, key bindings, and more. Have a look at "Window behaviour" -> "focus stealing prevention" -- wind catches lily scatt'ring petals to the wind segmentation fault -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-08 16:43, Anton Aylward wrote:
icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me
mad. I tried it once ... never again!
It is, or was, the default in one of the minor desktops. I forget which. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+BpKEACgkQIvFNjefEBxoCdwCgjw9VeZmsUBoYVp8u+fwneQWl vPgAmwRMGe/0QtSgbJhYjzCkErKpj+92 =FONL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 20:13:02 +0530, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
phanisvara das said the following on 04/08/2012 10:28 AM:
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 19:33:07 +0530, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much.
that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing.
+1. "don't do that, then"
i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad.
I tried it once ... never again!
But whatever settings I have, yes when a new window/application comes up then focus switches there.
I suppose we could go through the settings one by one, but there so much, key bindings, and more.
Have a look at "Window behaviour" -> "focus stealing prevention"
yes, setting up behavior rules for certain windows is nice, but i often find these settings get screwed up: either by a plasma crash, or by an update sooner or later. happened a few times that i had to remove most of my painstakingly prepared window rules, because at one point all windows opened as tiny squares in the upper left corner, per example. now i use that only sparingly. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 00:13:02 Anton Aylward wrote:
phanisvara das said the following on 04/08/2012 10:28 AM:
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 19:33:07 +0530, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com>
wrote:
It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much.
that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing.
+1. "don't do that, then"
i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad.
I tried it once ... never again!
To each his own. I have both focus follows mouse and autoraise turned on and have since early KDE days. In fact, I think I used to with OS/2 also. That is one thing that I *really* miss when I'm forced to use Windoze at work...I've become so used to it, it is second nature now to expect that when I point to something that it will "step forward and be ready for instructions". :-) -- ========================================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ========================================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/08/2012 07:28 AM, phanisvara das wrote:
that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing.
i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad.
Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO. Choice is the name of the game! Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.
Choice is the name of the game!
However, when I click on something, it's because I want to use it and it should have focus. As an example, yesterday I was using Wireshark. I clicked on the link about filters and didn't see the browser. I then had to check the open Firefox windows to find the one that had a new tab with the desired info. There is simply no excuse for that sort of behavior. I should not have to search for something I just opened. I don't recall ever seeing that behavior in KDE3 nor in Windows or OS/2. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 17:11, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
However, when I click on something, it's because I want to use it and it should have focus. As an example, yesterday I was using Wireshark. I clicked on the link about filters and didn't see the browser. I then had to check the open Firefox windows to find the one that had a new tab with the desired info. There is simply no excuse for that sort of behavior. I should not have to search for something I just opened. I don't recall ever seeing that behavior in KDE3 nor in Windows or OS/2.
This is something I see in Windows all the time (work laptop). Windows 7 to be specific. Constantly I'm hunting down windows that have opened up under whatever I clicked on.. IE9 is particularly bad for this (click a link in a company web app that opens up a popup window, and 100% of the time the window opens at the bottom of the stack of open windows).... or the request for authorization in Windows 7... it's always in the background, behind everything I'm working on. Not justifying the behavior you're seeing on KDE4... just commenting that this is not specific to KDE4... although I've yet to see or notice it on my desktop. Just thinking on this... one behavior of KDE (was in KDE3 and is still there in KDE4) that I find useful is.. if you start an application, while it's starting, you can click back to another already open application and continue working while the other application starts up. Once it starts up, it'll stay in the background until you bring it forward. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
C wrote:
Just thinking on this... one behavior of KDE (was in KDE3 and is still there in KDE4) that I find useful is.. if you start an application, while it's starting, you can click back to another already open application and continue working while the other application starts up. Once it starts up, it'll stay in the background until you bring it forward.
That is the way it should work. I should have the choice of whether the starting app has focus or the one I'm currently in. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott said the following on 04/08/2012 11:29 AM:
C wrote:
Just thinking on this... one behavior of KDE (was in KDE3 and is still there in KDE4) that I find useful is.. if you start an application, while it's starting, you can click back to another already open application and continue working while the other application starts up. Once it starts up, it'll stay in the background until you bring it forward.
That is the way it should work. I should have the choice of whether the starting app has focus or the one I'm currently in.
Right. And that's how it does work. For me (and I gather for many others). So its all down to a matter of your config settings. -- Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear. -- Douglas MacArthur -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
C said the following on 04/08/2012 11:23 AM:
Not justifying the behavior you're seeing on KDE4... just commenting that this is not specific to KDE4... although I've yet to see or notice it on my desktop.
If there's a problem I have with KDE4, if there's a problem I see others - You too, James - have with KDE4, its that there are so many configuration options, and every plugin you load brings more. And they interact. And applications might or might not over-ride some. I know for sure that this is *not* a something you can do with KDE3 that you can't do with KDE4, because its a BTDT, well actually that's how I've got KDE4 working for me. Unless I click on a windows while the new app is starting, the new apps window gets focus. Sorry, James, that's how it is, its not a shortcoming of KDE4. Now what this configuration difference is we can talk back and forth over all week and into next month, but the simplest thing is for James to have faith in the fact that KDE4 *can* work the way he wants it to work, the way he was working with KDE3, and work through, methodologically, the 6.023x10^23 possible combinations of KDE4 settings .... Or we can suggest things and he tries them But without James having faith ... an so long as James holds that KDE4 is cr8p and KDE3 is God's Own Gift To Suse and Should Never Have Been Supplanted, then the Noodly Appendages will never Bestow Their Blessing on his configuration files ... or whatever it takes. Sorry, guys, I'm fed up of two things: 1. People telling me KDE4 is retrograde compared to KDE3 If you don't like it, don't use it and don't complain about it 2. People telling me its not possible to do what I've been doing for a long time and have no problems with. -- The art of progress is to preserve order amid change and to preserve change amid order. --Alfred North Whitehead -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
But without James having faith ... an so long as James holds that KDE4 is cr8p and KDE3 is God's Own Gift To Suse and Should Never Have Been Supplanted, then the Noodly Appendages will never Bestow Their Blessing on his configuration files ... or whatever it takes.
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/08 13:20 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
e.g. Browser window in background has a page with an URL I want to copy & paste into window that has focus. Anywhere else, I have to: 1-focus the browser window 2-copy the link 3-refocus the target window 4-paste In OS/2: 1-right click the browser link 2-click copy 3-shift-INS 4-<enter> The difference is OS/2 typically requires a whole lot less mouse movement and screen redrawing to do the same task. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 19:39, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
e.g.
Browser window in background has a page with an URL I want to copy & paste into window that has focus. Anywhere else, I have to: 1-focus the browser window 2-copy the link 3-refocus the target window 4-paste
In OS/2: 1-right click the browser link 2-click copy 3-shift-INS 4-<enter>
The difference is OS/2 typically requires a whole lot less mouse movement and screen redrawing to do the same task.
Ummm OK... I just now tested your "In OS/2" example in KDE4 (using default mouse focus settings) with LibreOffice and Chromium. The application with focus was LibreOffice, and Chromium was in the background, but the contents were visible. I followed your *exact* steps you outlined for for OS/2 and.. it worked exactly the same in KDE4. I did *not* have to to the first sequence of steps to achieve the copy/paste in this example. So... C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/08 20:21 (GMT+0200) C composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
e.g.
Browser window in background has a page with an URL I want to copy& paste into window that has focus. Anywhere else, I have to: 1-focus the browser window 2-copy the link 3-refocus the target window 4-paste
In OS/2: 1-right click the browser link 2-click copy 3-shift-INS 4-<enter>
The difference is OS/2 typically requires a whole lot less mouse movement and screen redrawing to do the same task.
Ummm OK... I just now tested your "In OS/2" example in KDE4 (using default mouse focus settings) with LibreOffice and Chromium. The application with focus was LibreOffice, and Chromium was in the background, but the contents were visible. I followed your *exact* steps you outlined for for OS/2 and.. it worked exactly the same in KDE4. I did *not* have to to the first sequence of steps to achieve the copy/paste in this example. So...
Which KDE4? Right click on a link in a background window in KDE has always focused that window for me, but I haven't reopened Chromium since my first look at it (I uninstalled it). I infrequently have occasion to paste from a web browser into LO. Web browser to me usually means SM or FF, only occasionally Konq, rarely Opera. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 20:41, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
e.g.
Browser window in background has a page with an URL I want to copy& paste
into window that has focus. Anywhere else, I have to: 1-focus the browser window 2-copy the link 3-refocus the target window 4-paste
In OS/2: 1-right click the browser link 2-click copy 3-shift-INS 4-<enter>
The difference is OS/2 typically requires a whole lot less mouse movement and screen redrawing to do the same task.
Ummm OK... I just now tested your "In OS/2" example in KDE4 (using default mouse focus settings) with LibreOffice and Chromium. The application with focus was LibreOffice, and Chromium was in the background, but the contents were visible. I followed your *exact* steps you outlined for for OS/2 and.. it worked exactly the same in KDE4. I did *not* have to to the first sequence of steps to achieve the copy/paste in this example. So...
Which KDE4? Right click on a link in a background window in KDE has always focused that window for me, but I haven't reopened Chromium since my first look at it (I uninstalled it). I infrequently have occasion to paste from a web browser into LO. Web browser to me usually means SM or FF, only occasionally Konq, rarely Opera.
I am using the current release of KDE4.8.1 from the openSUSE 12.1 KDE4.8 repository - but this is somewhat irrelevant because this behavior has been the same over as many previous versions of KDE4 as I can remember... I use this functionality a lot (I got used to it in KDE3.. I can't remember if KDE2 had it, it was too long ago) and just assume it is there and works.. this was made apparent to me lately when I have had to work a fair bit with Windows 7 where this is not possible to do. I used Chromium because I happened to be working in it when I tested your example. I just tested with Firefox 11... same results... I can right click on *any* link with Firefox in the background and copy the link Firefox remains in the background... and then I past said link into LibreOffice. Just for completeness, I followed the exact same steps in Opera and Konqueror as well... same results... the browser remains in the background and I can copy the link (Konqueror, an app I never use, does seem a bit more twitchy and will come forward if your right click moves the mouse or you linger too long on the right click). I don't have SeaMonkey installed, but frankly I'd be very surprised that the results aren't exactly the same.. that browsers in KDE4 behave exactly as your "good" example from OS/2. So it would seem that this issue is a non-issue. C -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, 08 April 2012 13:21 C wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 19:39, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
e.g.
Browser window in background has a page with an URL I want to copy & paste into window that has focus. Anywhere else, I have to: 1-focus the browser window 2-copy the link 3-refocus the target window 4-paste
In OS/2: 1-right click the browser link 2-click copy 3-shift-INS 4-<enter>
The difference is OS/2 typically requires a whole lot less mouse movement and screen redrawing to do the same task.
Ummm OK... I just now tested your "In OS/2" example in KDE4 (using default mouse focus settings) with LibreOffice and Chromium. The application with focus was LibreOffice, and Chromium was in the background, but the contents were visible. I followed your *exact* steps you outlined for for OS/2 and.. it worked exactly the same in KDE4. I did *not* have to to the first sequence of steps to achieve the copy/paste in this example. So...
C.
I just tried it also. I left kmail up as full window-sized, opened Seamonkey and made it half-size so I could see your post in kmail and the mail links at the bottom of your post to unsubscribe to opensuse (everyone's posts have the same links btw). I right-clicked on the unsubscribe mail link in your post in kmail that was in the background and nothing happened. I had to focus that window before I was allowed to right-click and copy the URL/link. So... -- Powered by Slackware 13.37 18:19:20 up 1 day, 5:23, 2 users, load average: 0.85, 0.77, 0.74 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. - Isaac Asimov Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 01:23, Insomniactoo <Insomniactoo@localnet.com> wrote:
I just tried it also. I left kmail up as full window-sized, opened Seamonkey and made it half-size so I could see your post in kmail and the mail links at the bottom of your post to unsubscribe to opensuse (everyone's posts have the same links btw).
I right-clicked on the unsubscribe mail link in your post in kmail that was in the background and nothing happened. I had to focus that window before I was allowed to right-click and copy the URL/link.
So...
I don't use KMail, but is is installed... I opened it up (for the first time in KDE4.8.2), configured it and pulled in some emails from a POP account I use. Most of the emails have links.. I tried exactly what you described.. KMail full screen, with another application over top (Chromium of it matters). With the KMail clearly in the background I right clicked on a link in an email... and I could copy it *without* needing to bring it forward. I tried again by opening a message, and right clicked on an email address in the header (just to try that too) and with the message window in the background, I was able to right-click and copy the message using the context menu *without* needing to bring the application to the foreground. To be sure it wasn't just my single install, I tested on a laptop running openSUSE 12.1 and KDE4.8.2 pulled from the standard 12.1 KDE4.8 repo.... same thing.... it works exactly as the OS/2 example touted as a missing must have feature in KDE4. I say again... so... C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 01:50:31 +0200 C <smaug42@opensuse.org> wrote:
I right clicked on a link in an email... and I could copy it *without* needing to bring it forward.
This works from Konversation to whatever other application, Claws Mail the same way, so it is not only KDE applications that work OS/2 way. It works with shift+ins. With ctrl+c it is wrong paste. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/08 13:20 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2) XFile (shareware, not the native file picker, more than a decade old) features: Remembers window size (across sessions) Remembers window position Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366) Current DIR File list of current DIR Configurable favorite locations View with Open in file manager Most recent files (must have; one click open) Most recent dirs (must have; one click select) When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> [04-08-12 16:12]:
On 2012/04/08 13:20 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2) XFile (shareware, not the native file picker, more than a decade old) features:
Remembers window size (across sessions) Remembers window position Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366)
per your posted url: '283366)' is not a valid bug number nor an alias to a bug. sorry, not interested enough to persue this further.
Current DIR File list of current DIR Configurable favorite locations View with Open in file manager Most recent files (must have; one click open) Most recent dirs (must have; one click select) When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have)
sounds just like mc in an xterm or konsole window configured to remember its location and size and been around for years and is/was available in all versions of openSUSE that I have used since 5.x. Can you "crank start" your Mazda's? Is that a "missing" feature? You argue for the sake of argument as you are not willing to make the config changes to do what you "made config changes to do before". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan said the following on 04/08/2012 04:32 PM:
You argue for the sake of argument as you are not willing to make the config changes to do what you "made config changes to do before".
Indeed. -- Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. --Henry Louis Mencken -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 22:10, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2)
I've tried to install OS/2 (last vestion I have is.. I think.. 4.52, but I can't get it to fire up on any computer I own or in VirtualBox.
XFile (shareware, not the native file picker, more than a decade old) features:
Remembers window size (across sessions)
KDE4's Dolphin does this by default
Remembers window position
Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced > Special Window Settings > Size & Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.
Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366)
Known bug.. can't help that. I don't have a large number of noauto entries, so I'm unaffected, and Dolphin is very fast on my system.
Current DIR
I don't know what you mean here...
File list of current DIR
Or here
Configurable favorite locations
Check... that's the panel on the left side
View with
Right click > Open With
Open in file manager
Not sure what you mean here
Most recent files (must have; one click open)
Application dependent. Some can do this. Or do you mean the file manager remembers the last X files you interacted with?
Most recent dirs (must have; one click select)
Same as above?
When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have)
Application dependent usually (if I understand your point)... most well behaved apps I use are capable of doing this... not all do. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/08 22:35 (GMT+0200) C composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2)
I've tried to install OS/2 (last vestion I have is.. I think.. 4.52, but I can't get it to fire up on any computer I own or in VirtualBox.
Newer hardware typically requires newer drivers available only via eCS. Cloning from an old HD is usually easier than installing anew.
XFile (shareware, not the native file picker, more than a decade old) features:
Remembers window size (across sessions)
KDE4's Dolphin does this by default
What does Dolphin have to do with using the system filepicker from an open app to open a file?
Remembers window position
Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced> Special Window Settings> Size& Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.
Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366)
Known bug.. can't help that. I don't have a large number of noauto entries, so I'm unaffected, and Dolphin is very fast on my system.
Current DIR
I don't know what you mean here...
[1]
File list of current DIR
Or here
[1]
Configurable favorite locations
Check... that's the panel on the left side
fouled by: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297217 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297219
View with
Right click> Open With
Open in file manager
Not sure what you mean here
[1]
Most recent files (must have; one click open)
Application dependent. Some can do this. Or do you mean the file manager remembers the last X files you interacted with?
Remembers last X files.
Most recent dirs (must have; one click select)
Same as above?
Yes
When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have)
Application dependent usually (if I understand your point)... most well behaved apps I use are capable of doing this... not all do.
[1] 800x600 resolution desktop screenshot attached to bug 24625 118 months ago: https://bug24625.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=87914 I may have attached one like it to a KDE bug long ago, but I found the Mozilla bug first. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 23:41, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
Newer hardware typically requires newer drivers available only via eCS. Cloning from an old HD is usually easier than installing anew.
Ah.. commercial software that I don't have a license for. The main reason I haven't tried eComStation.
Remembers window size (across sessions) KDE4's Dolphin does this by default What does Dolphin have to do with using the system filepicker from an open app to open a file?
Ummm.. no idea... the system filepicker, if called by an application, always shows up exactly where I expect it to... relative to the application that called it.
Check... that's the panel on the left side fouled by: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297217 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297219
To which I can honestly say neither one is an issue on my system. I've got multiple mount points spanning multiple drives and I do *not* see this.. nor have I seen it on ANY system I've installed. It looks like something is horribly broken, or you've set up something like 2 or 3 dozen partitions... to which I'd reply.. what? why? to what end? As for narrow? Nope not an issue either on any system I've installed on.. laptops.. desktops (quite a few too)... On my desktop, it's a completely usable width that I've since twiddled to have the shortcuts I prefer and hidden the 3 I don't need to see.
[1] 800x600 resolution desktop screenshot attached to bug 24625 118 months ago: https://bug24625.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=87914
I may have attached one like it to a KDE bug long ago, but I found the Mozilla bug first.
OK, I can see that being useful, but... OK... it's not there in KDE3 either.. or Gnome... or.. or... I "think" I've seen something similar in that abomination known as CDE that I used to use on Solaris, but nowhere else. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
C said the following on 04/08/2012 06:01 PM:
Check... that's the panel on the left side fouled by: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297217 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297219
To which I can honestly say neither one is an issue on my system.
Ditto. Its about configuration and customization.
I've got multiple mount points spanning multiple drives and I do *not* see this.. nor have I seen it on ANY system I've installed. It looks like something is horribly broken, or you've set up something like 2 or 3 dozen partitions... to which I'd reply.. what? why? to what end?
The bugposter seems to have forgotten that you can create new tabs there on the left with new 'roots'. I have a root at $HOME and a root for each of my major mounted file systems. So /home/anton/server/PDF/Books has a tab and that prefix simple doesn't appear. When I select that vertical-tab the directories I'm interested in appear even through the left panel is "narrow'.
As for narrow? Nope not an issue either on any system I've installed on.. laptops.. desktops (quite a few too)... On my desktop, it's a completely usable width that I've since twiddled to have the shortcuts I prefer and hidden the 3 I don't need to see.
Just so. And you can always make it wider. I have never assumed that the out-of-the-box defaults are what I need to be using! When it comes down to screen-width issue ... they are just that. There are plenty of web sites out there you can't view on a cell phone. I recall the first time I was handed a friend's tablet and had problems selecting a link until he showed me how to grow/shrink the image with a flick of thumb and finger. Too many of these complaints are like that; learn how to alter the config to make it do what you want. -- "Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality." - Theodor W. Adorno -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/08 20:50 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:
C said the following on 04/08/2012 06:01 PM:
Check... that's the panel on the left side fouled by: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297217 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297219
To which I can honestly say neither one is an issue on my system.
Ditto. Its about configuration and customization.
Did either of you read either bug or look at the screenshot? AFAICT, the left pane can't be made to stay wide enough to be useful across opens. Location names no more than 4 characters wide until yet again dragging a hard to find narrow drag bar? You people must either have youthful eyes and/or normal or lower DPI displays. 96 DPI can't cut it here. cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120533 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234943 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234946 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=263562
I've got multiple mount points spanning multiple drives and I do *not* see this.. nor have I seen it on ANY system I've installed. It looks like something is horribly broken, or you've set up something like 2 or 3 dozen partitions... to which I'd reply.. what? why? to what end?
See? You can't tell what they are from only 3-4 characters or micro icons either! Most of those are fstab NFS and CIFS entries, over 100 on each local system. Few or none are due to unmounted partitions. Few NFS/CIFS entries represent mounted at any given point in time, hence the long scroll in http://bugsfiles.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=70044
The bugposter seems to have forgotten that you can create new tabs there on the left with new 'roots'. I have a root at $HOME and a root for each of my major mounted file systems. So /home/anton/server/PDF/Books has a tab and that prefix simple doesn't appear. When I select that vertical-tab the directories I'm interested in appear even through the left panel is "narrow'.
Presumably you're back to talking about Dolphin/Konq again. NA again.
As for narrow? Nope not an issue either on any system I've installed on.. laptops.. desktops (quite a few too)... On my desktop, it's a completely usable width that I've since twiddled to have the shortcuts I prefer and hidden the 3 I don't need to see.
Just so.
And you can always make it wider.
But not make it stay that way, hence bug 297217. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, April 08, 2012 23:35:30 C wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 22:10, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2)
-----snip-----
Remembers window position
Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced > Special Window Settings > Size & Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.
The above seems to mean that one has to position the position of the Dolphin window (or any other window, presumably), and then lock it into that position for the future. This is not the OS/2 behavior; in OS/2 one has only to place a window in its desired position, period. There is not need to trickle down through a rather long menu tree, and manipulate check boxes to set a position to be remembered for each window -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Stan Goodman <stan.goodman@hashkedim.com> [01-01-70 12:34]:
On Sunday, April 08, 2012 23:35:30 C wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 22:10, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2)
-----snip-----
Remembers window position
Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced > Special Window Settings > Size & Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.
The above seems to mean that one has to position the position of the Dolphin window (or any other window, presumably), and then lock it into that position for the future. This is not the OS/2 behavior; in OS/2 one has only to place a window in its desired position, period. There is not need to trickle down through a rather long menu tree, and manipulate check boxes to set a position to be remembered for each window
Point is one has to ability to *choose* which manner is presented, but *you* still have the ability to position the window as you choose/expect w/o use os/2. I, too, used os/2 from the early beta until IBS stepped on it's xyzj, and I left os/2 as I left kde3, kde2/ and early versions of windoz. There are a few, very few, things I like the way windoz does them but I will not .....! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 00:30, Stan Goodman <stan.goodman@hashkedim.com> wrote:
Remembers window position
Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced > Special Window Settings > Size & Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.
The above seems to mean that one has to position the position of the Dolphin window (or any other window, presumably), and then lock it into that position for the future. This is not the OS/2 behavior; in OS/2 one has only to place a window in its desired position, period. There is not need to trickle down through a rather long menu tree, and manipulate check boxes to set a position to be remembered for each window
Instead of assuming... did you try it... I'm guessing no, you didn't. The option is NOT the default... so you change it if you want the old OS/2-like behavior. You do NOT have to manually set the position, nor are you locking it in... as I clearly stated, "ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right" implying... for this particular setting, they are not important. If you follow those exact steps.. you know... try it yourself instead of assuming... you would discover that the option configures the Dolphin window to remember whatever location it was in when you last used it. If you move it to a new location while it's open and then close it... it'll remember it's last location. You do not have to set this option for each window... I gave the example for Dolphin specifically, where you set it once and it remains until you unset the option. If you want to apply it to all applications, you go to: Configure Desktop > Window Behavior > Window Rules > New > Size & Position and set the Size and Position to on (checkbox) and set the option to Remember (sound familiar?). Click OK and you'll be asked if you are sure you want to apply this to all applications. So... KDE4 is fully capable of this same behavior as described for OS/2.... you simply have to enable it... once... either per application or globally. It's not hard... it's documented (how do you think I discovered how to do it?)... and instead of assuming that KDE4 was broken according to a feature in a 20 year old GUI, I tried and discovered that one of the features that was being touted as missing was actually there... as are roughly 85 or 90% of the rest of the presumed missing features. Sure, some things aren't there... this is KDE4, not an operating system from 20 years ago. Things are bound to be different. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
C said the following on 04/08/2012 04:35 PM:
Remembers window position Not default, but...right click on the Dolphin window tile bar. Select Advanced > Special Window Settings > Size & Position. Place checks in the Position and Size check boxes, and set their option to Remember (ignore the numbers in the text boxes to the right). Click OK. Position Dolphin where you want it to open... close it and open it again... shazam, it remembers Window position.
As I said elsewhere, its a function that has been generalized into the Window manager. You can do this with *any* application, *any* window (by name or class), not just the file manager. -- There is no greater mistake than the hasty conclusion that opinions are worthless because they are badly argued. -- Thomas H. Huxley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata said the following on 04/08/2012 04:10 PM:
On 2012/04/08 13:20 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
e.g. (a major reason I still use OS/2) XFile (shareware, not the native file picker, more than a decade old) features:
Remembers window size (across sessions)
That's a function of the Window Manager, not the application, and yes KDE does that. In fact you can 'lock' attributes of classes of windows.
Remembers window position
As above.
Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366)
How fast things are under KDE/Gnome or anything else depends on many things, not the least of which is 'eye-candy'. I find turning things off (ala LXDE) and making everything 'snappy' annoying.
Current DIR File list of current DIR Configurable favorite locations
All there in Konqueror/Dolphin. Oh, and in KDE you can define what directory an app will start in.
View with
Ditto
Open in file manager
Ditto
Most recent files (must have; one click open) Most recent dirs (must have; one click select)
Fuzzy concept there; most recent for what? Most recent that you've moved/copied to? Konq/Dol have both "back" (as in previous, stack) that applies to each tab AND "up" (work you way back up the directory tree) that applies to each tab. That strikes me as 'more general' and more useful. I also use "F9" to get a sidebar of directories, which is also configurable. Again, more general and more useful. And I can define 'vertical tabs' on the sidebar to give new starting points for lists of directories.
When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have)
That's a function of the app; a sensible, well coded app will also have 'previously opened files'. There's nothing here we can't find in KDE. Maybe its that you don't use or haven't explored, haven't experimented with KDE. I'm sire OS/2 was great in its time, but then compared to old CLIs, the Bourne shell of 1980 was a great leap forward since it supported a proper programming language and implemented P J Brown's ideas about 'throw-away compiling' in interpreters. But time moves on and we had the Korn Shell and now Bash, and they incorporated ideas from the C-shell and more. There is an evolution of sorts in action. Yes the good ideas are spoken of and in this open source world someone will implement then. If it catches on, great, if not then perhaps it wasn't that desirable. Obviously those ideas from OS/2 had some value, but the developers found that putting them in the desktop manager rather than the file manager made more sense. If you're not aware of these functions and capabilities, ones that people such as myself who are more committed to KDE4 are well aware of, then please don't tell us that KDE doesn't have them. And yes I don't know Gnome; I gave up on it a long time ago. -- There are two rules for success in life: Rule 1: Don't tell people everything you know. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012/04/08 20:35 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:
Felix Miata composed:
Note OS/2 feature subthread started at this point by James:
On 2012/04/08 13:20 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:
Actually, all desktop designers should take a hard look at the OS/2 Workplace shell. It included a lot of nice features that I haven't seen elsewhere.
Fast (cf. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366)
How fast things are under KDE/Gnome or anything else depends on many things, not the least of which is 'eye-candy'. I find turning things off (ala LXDE) and making everything 'snappy' annoying.
Waiting multiple seconds for something that's instant in other contexts is annoying too. I globally disable as much bling as possible before first start of X after a new install: #/etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/70-composite.conf Section "Extensions" Option "Composite" "Disable" EndSection
Current DIR File list of current DIR Configurable favorite locations
All there in Konqueror/Dolphin.
Why do Konq/Dophin keep coming up in this subthread? My file managers are OFMs, which work essentially the same regards whether X works at all, or even what OS I'm booted to. This subthread I'm in is about accessing files through open applications I actually use, like SeaMonkey, SMplayer, K3B & KSnapshot, using the KDE file picker, and comparing the KDE file picker features to the features of the optional OS/2 file picker I use. It is due to the OS/2 picker features that are absent from other pickers that I remain entrenched in OS/2 for as much as it is able to do for me (including running my DOS Swiss Army Knife apps).
Oh, and in KDE you can define what directory an app will start in.
What I care about for purposes of this thread is exclusively what happens when I have an app open and I enter its file -> open and save as menus, and how quickly it's possible to complete the task at hand.
Most recent files (must have; one click open) Most recent dirs (must have; one click select)
Fuzzy concept there; most recent for what? Most recent that you've moved/copied to?
Apparently fuzzy to everyone but me and other OS/2 users using XFile. Most recent access, whether file or dir, which for some apps differs between open and save as. In KDE I'm forever navigating from ~/Documents to wherever I just was or was last and wish to remain or return to. On OS/2 here all such locations are at most 2 clicks away, and as often as not are where the picker already is, unlike the typical case for any Linux DE I've ever used.
Konq/Dol have both "back" (as in previous, stack) that applies to each
Irrelevant. I never use Dolphin, and infrequently use Konq to access local files.
tab AND "up" (work you way back up the directory tree) that applies to each tab. That strikes me as 'more general' and more useful.
"Work back" are key words. Lots more than two clicks most of the time, and infrequently zero.
I also use "F9" to get a sidebar of directories, which is also configurable. Again, more general and more useful. And I can define 'vertical tabs' on the sidebar to give new starting points for lists of directories.
More Dolphin? Then more NA.
When supported by app opened from, opens in last DIR used by that app (must have)
That's a function of the app; a sensible, well coded app will also have 'previously opened files'.
Good thing they do sometimes or about the only things I'd use Linux for are Apache and testing web pages in alternate browsers across platforms. Only Windows is solidly more frustrating. Mac is smarter in picking files, but for other reasons nothing I could consider for daily use.
There's nothing here we can't find in KDE.
Except what nobody but me seems to grasp. Fastest possible access to files through open apps to me is crucial must have. Until the very recent 4.8.1 improvement to https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366 KDE4's file picker made everyday use of KDE4 a whole planet away from consideration. Even with that huge improvement it's still taking several seconds beyond the instant response I'm used to in KDE3 and OS/2.
There is an evolution of sorts in action. Yes the good ideas are spoken of and in this open source world someone will implement then. If it catches on, great, if not then perhaps it wasn't that desirable.
It's also why some people refuse to leave what ain't broke and don't need fixin'. Not every mutation nets a benefit.
Obviously those ideas from OS/2 had some value, but the developers found that putting them in the desktop manager rather than the file manager made more sense.
Is the KDE file picker not part of the desktop manager? I seriously multitask, even for TV. TV without PIP/POP more than transiently to me is a painful handicap. Multiple apps stay open for days, not minutes, across 7 desktops minimum. File management outside OFM is almost as painful as coping with Windows, where the chores would just pile up instead of ever getting done. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
Note OS/2 feature subthread started at this point by James:
Actually, I was thinking of other things, such as "shadows", which are multiple instances of the same object, all the wonderful things you can to with 64K bytes of extended attributes, templates on the desktop, where you simply tear off the document you want to work with and the appropriate app starts up ready to go and much, much more. When you select properties for an object on the OS/2 desktop, you have a multi-page "book" of the various things you can do with the extended attributes, along with the various object details. You can do all sorts of powerful searching based on the EAs and more. One thing I recall doing was just dragging something to the properties so that the icon would be applied to that object. The item being dragged didn't even have to be an icon. It just had to contain one. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/08/2012 08:11 AM, James Knott wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.
Choice is the name of the game!
However, when I click on something, it's because I want to use it and it should have focus. As an example, yesterday I was using Wireshark. I clicked on the link about filters and didn't see the browser. I then had to check the open Firefox windows to find the one that had a new tab with the desired info. There is simply no excuse for that sort of behavior. I should not have to search for something I just opened. I don't recall ever seeing that behavior in KDE3 nor in Windows or OS/2.
That's interesting. On my system when I click on a link in Wireshark a new tab in Firefox opens and displays the link contents. If Firefox was already open and not in front, it remains behind. If a new Firefox is started it opens under the Wireshark window, which makes sense since Wireshark has the focus. I do have problems with Thunderbird and Firefox password prompt windows opening under other virtual desktop windows. Now, when I open Thunderbird and it appears to be frozen I use the panel to locate the hidden password prompt. These small windows should be on the top, all the time! I've beefed about this in the past, but maybe it's a Gnome thing? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
If a new Firefox is started it opens under the Wireshark window, which makes sense since Wireshark has the focus.
If I click on something, I expect it to be up front. If I want to remain in the previous app, then clicking on it should keep me there. Again, this is not consistent. Something is flakey somewhere. The desktop was originally click to focus. However, there were issues with it, so I changed the setting. I've set it back again, so I'll have to see how it goes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:07:38 +0530, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
If a new Firefox is started it opens under the Wireshark window, which makes sense since Wireshark has the focus.
If I click on something, I expect it to be up front. If I want to remain in the previous app, then clicking on it should keep me there.
Again, this is not consistent. Something is flakey somewhere. The desktop was originally click to focus. However, there were issues with it, so I changed the setting. I've set it back again, so I'll have to see how it goes.
i remember seeing discussions about this on one of the GIMP mailing lists. when using GIMP in multi-window mode (used to be the only one, prior to 2.7 & 2.8), the auxiliary windows are treated differently by different desktop environments. i think there's also a freedesktop.org standard re. this, application windows, tool windows (or whatever they're called), and then there's window hints, and what not. KDE & GNOME handle some of these things differently, perhaps others too, so there's ample room for confusion and unpredictable behavior. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott said the following on 04/08/2012 11:11 AM:
However, when I click on something, it's because I want to use it and it should have focus. As an example, yesterday I was using Wireshark. I clicked on the link about filters and didn't see the browser. I then had to check the open Firefox windows to find the one that had a new tab with the desired info. There is simply no excuse for that sort of behavior. I should not have to search for something I just opened. I don't recall ever seeing that behavior in KDE3 nor in Windows or OS/2.
Do any of these seem like what you're facing? http://superuser.com/questions/348482/legacy-x-application-on-kde4-not-raisi... http://forum.krusader.org/viewtopic.php?p=9633 then take a look at http://trac.pcbsd.org/browser/pcbsd/trunk/system-overlay/usr/share/skel/.kde... -- In cyberspace no-one can hear you scream - BUT EVERYONE CAN SEE YOU SHOUT. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 11:11:49 James Knott wrote:
Lew Wolfgang wrote:
Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.
Choice is the name of the game!
However, when I click on something, it's because I want to use it and it should have focus. As an example, yesterday I was using Wireshark. I clicked on the link about filters and didn't see the browser. I then had to check the open Firefox windows to find the one that had a new tab with the desired info. There is simply no excuse for that sort of behavior. I should not have to search for something I just opened. I don't recall ever seeing that behavior in KDE3 nor in Windows or OS/2.
Two things could be happening here: 1) Either FF doesn't ask KWin to raise its existing window when a new tab is opened by an external application - I do not know how Wireshark tells FF to open a browser window - does FF come to front when clicking a link in something else, for example, Thunderbird? If these are different it implies the problem is in Wireshark's invocation of FF. 2) Alternatively, FF does not update the window timestamp when a window is opened by Wireshark. This is how the focus stealing prevention logic (in KWin 3 and 4) knows when to focus and bring to front a 'new' window and when to leave it in the background so it can't swallow eg your password keystrokes. HTH Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Board, Booster, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Lew Wolfgang <wolfgang@sweet-haven.com> [04-08-12 11:06]:
Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.
+1 -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 20:34:20 +0530, Lew Wolfgang <wolfgang@sweet-haven.com> wrote:
On 04/08/2012 07:28 AM, phanisvara das wrote:
that was me, mentioning "focus follows mouse," but i neither use nor recommend it; i find it rather confusing.
i expect the focus to remain ideally where i want or expect it, but if that's not the case for some reason, at least where it's at -- not follow the mouse all over the place. i often do things like hovering over taskbar icons or the clock, and having the focus following all that would drive me mad.
Different strokes for different folks! I've been using focus follows mouse for many years (pre-Linux) and along with being able to disable "auto raise" is one of Linux/UNIX's selling points over MS Windows, IMHO.
Choice is the name of the game!
i'm probably just too young, as a consistent linux user if not as a human being (4 years / 54 years). i started with KDE3, and the default was focus on mouse click, as it used to be under windows. when i tried 'focus follows mouse' it just felt strange. could probably get used to it if i wanted to, like i got used to a tiling window manager (awesome), but right now i don't see the need. PS: sorry for the private email. for some reason opera sometimes defaults to reply to the list, at other times to the sender. different mail clients talking to each other, i guess. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
phanisvara das wrote:
i started with KDE3, and the default was focus on mouse click That is still the default, but I tried the other configuration, as it wasn't working properly.
While we're on the topic of things that are "busted", when is the remote login going to be fixed? It is impossible to select a remote host in remote login. There has been a bug report since the RC days, IIRC. This is a problem with the selection panel that closes whenever you move the mouse, rather than a problem with X. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 04/08/2012 08:39 AM, phanisvara das wrote:
i started with KDE3, and the default was focus on mouse click, as it used to be under windows. when i tried 'focus follows mouse' it just felt strange. could probably get used to it if i wanted to, like i got used to a tiling window manager (awesome), but right now i don't see the need.
I think KDE defaults to MS Windows behavior. You have to manually enable focus follows mouse and disable click to raise. System administrators of networks of hosts will sometimes open multiple command windows with a ssh session running in each. The windows can then be tiled and offset so that the bottom of each is visible under the window on top. The admin can them easily change focus by just moving the mouse pointer between the tiled/offset windows and be able to enter commands just by typing. Having to click the mouse before typing would totally wreck this convenience, as would the window receiving focus rising to the top. This capability lacking in MS Windows is the single most important factor that proves Windows is a toy operating system not designed for serious work, IMHO. YMMV. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 22:12:43 +0530, Lew Wolfgang <wolfgang@sweet-haven.com> wrote:
System administrators of networks of hosts will sometimes open multiple command windows with a ssh session running in each. The windows can then be tiled and offset so that the bottom of each is visible under the window on top.
The admin can them easily change focus by just moving the mouse pointer between the tiled/offset windows and be able to enter commands just by typing. Having to click the mouse before typing would totally wreck this convenience, as would the window receiving focus rising to the top.
This capability lacking in MS Windows is the single most important factor that proves Windows is a toy operating system not designed for serious work, IMHO. YMMV.
interesting; i'm sometimes dealing with two or three remote servers simultaneously. so far i've been using different tabs in konsole, but that gets quickly confusing. stacked windows, with at least the bottom part visible, are probably easier to keep track of this way. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, 08 April 2012 09:03 James Knott wrote:
C wrote:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 14:24, James Knott<james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that KDE4 simply doesn't work as well as KDE3, even ignoring the differences in features. For example, often when I click on something to open it, I have to hunt to see where it is, rather than it opening on top of everything else. I also find that when something opens, it often does not have focus for the keyboard, so that if, for example, I press Alt-F2 to run something, I find that even though the box opens, I wind up typing into another app.
In this aspect alone, KDE4 has a long way to go to catch up to KDE3, even before considering the things that are no longer possible in KDE4.
Have you tweaked a setting somewhere? i haven't encountered this issue you present as an example of a problem with KDE4 at all.. and I just tested it following your example and it behaves as you are expecting it to not how you are describing it (ie I open an app using Alt+F2 and focus is immediately shifted to the new app once it's open).
C.
It's not consistent. That's why I said "often". There is a setting in Personal Settings for Window Behaviour. At someone's advice here, I changed it to "Focus follows mouse", but it didn't do much.
You're original post also reminded me to say it happens in KDE4 on Slackware also. It (KDE4) is nothing but a PITA, unfortunately. Can't remember if it does this also on my openSuSE 11.3 partition...gonna have to boot into it and see. I also thought about trying the 'focus follows mouse' thing, but just thinking ahead about it figured it'd be such a huge mess I left it alone and just bungle along with whatever way I have to to get KDE4 to work for me. -- Powered by Slackware 13.37 12:21:13 up 23:25, 2 users, load average: 0.72, 0.76, 0.77 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. - Isaac Asimov Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (13)
-
Anton Aylward -
C -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Insomniactoo -
James Knott -
Lew Wolfgang -
Patrick Shanahan -
phanisvara das -
Rajko M. -
Rodney Baker -
Stan Goodman -
Will Stephenson