On 8/7/20 11:03 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

ken wrote:

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The new way of switching applications (normally with Alt-Tab) is a lot more work and more cumbersome than the previous way.  Is there any way to switch back to the previous functionality? Alt-Tab is still the way, but you can change the appearance :

System Settings -> Window Management -> Task Switcher

Under "Visualisation" - I like to use "Compact". Hmm.  I'm not finding "Window Management", not under "System Settings" or under several other menu items.  I'm thinking maybe I need to install some more things.  But which things?  Or is there another way to get to "Window Management"?

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On 8/7/20 11:28 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* ken [08-07-20 11:26]:

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On 8/7/20 11:03 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

ken wrote:

...

The new way of switching applications (normally with Alt-Tab) is a lot more work and more cumbersome than the previous way.  Is there any way to switch back to the previous functionality? Alt-Tab is still the way, but you can change the appearance :

System Settings -> Window Management -> Task Switcher

Under "Visualisation" - I like to use "Compact". Hmm.  I'm not finding "Window Management", not under "System Settings" or under several other menu items.  I'm thinking maybe I need to install some more things.  But which things?  Or is there another way to get to "Window Management"? "Window Management" is in the "Workspace" group, second icon (on my Tw). I'm on Tumbleweed too, but can't find "Window Management" OR "Workspace" group anywhere.  I think I need a Ph.D. in pointing and clicking.  :)

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On 07/08/2020 19.45, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 8/7/20 12:31 PM, ken wrote:

...

I'm on Tumbleweed too, but can't find "Window Management" OR "Workspace" group anywhere.  I think I need a Ph.D. in pointing and clicking.  :)

This may be a dumb question, but what desktop are you using?

And what was the previous way? To me it has always been alt-tab. It took five messages to find out it was on Tumbleweed. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

ken wrote:

Sorry, I thought just about everyone is using TW. 

Far from it, I suspect. Way too unstable to ensure you can get eight-ten hours of work done every day. (just my opinion). For testing and punishment, I keep two systems on TW, whenever I do a 'dup', something inevitably breaks. Most recently, lilo was removed, leaving me unable to update my bootconfig. Thanks. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.0°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ken wrote:

On 8/7/20 4:01 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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ken wrote:

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Sorry, I thought just about everyone is using TW. Far from it, I suspect. Way too unstable to ensure you can get eight-ten hours of work done every day. (just my opinion). For testing and punishment, I keep two systems on TW, whenever I do a 'dup', something inevitably breaks. Most recently, lilo was removed, leaving me unable to update my bootconfig. Thanks.

Though I haven't experienced your problem with 'dup' (well, because I've never used it),

If you are running TW, you will surely have used 'zypper dup' more than once. There's nothing wrong with the 'dup', but not every package is as well tested as the next.

I have to say that opensuse has the suckiest install and update procedures of any Linux system I've installed since SLS (Soft Landing Systems) in 1992. 

Really ?? Maybe you just need to get used to it.

I've done two or three installs and two updates with opensuse and all of them have been disasters, at the end of each one unable to boot at all. 

That's definitely bad luck, but does in no way correspond to my experience. I've done a bit more than 3 installs and 2 updates, on loads of different hardware (intel, arm, ibm) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (29.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

ken wrote:

On 8/8/20 9:52 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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ken wrote:

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On 8/7/20 4:01 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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ken wrote: I have to say that opensuse has the suckiest install and update procedures of any Linux system I've installed since SLS (Soft Landing Systems) in 1992.

Really ?? Maybe you just need to get used to it.

It's a little hard to get used to the system failing to boot after either an install or an update.

Yes, I would agree. I meant get used to the install and update procedures :-) They both work very well, but I could imagine they still take some getting used to when you're coming from other distros. You should also consider that Tumbleweed is bleeding edge and might require some fiddling. If you want stable and conversative, go for Leap 15.2.

...

...

I've done two or three installs and two updates with opensuse and all of them have been disasters, at the end of each one unable to boot at all.

That's definitely bad luck, but does in no way correspond to my experience. I've done a bit more than 3 installs and 2 updates, on loads of different hardware (intel, arm, ibm)

I was guessing that it wasn't a universal problem.  If it were, it would never get past the devs and become a distro. 

Not to mention our automated QA.

And if it was a common problem, I would have read more about it in this list.  My guess at this point is that opensuse can't deal for some reason with the previous (CentOS) distro installed on this machine... as shown in my email prior to your reply.  I don't know why a previously installed distro would screw up an opensuse install.  Shouldn't it overwrite the previous boot sector... or at least ask me during the install process whether I want it or not?

If YaST finds traces of another distro, it will likely to try accommodate it in the boot-setup. Just guessing - I never do multi-boot installations myself, but I'm sure we have many users here who do. They might be able to help. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (29.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 8/8/20 12:27 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

ken wrote:

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...

ken wrote:

It's a little hard to get used to the system failing to boot after either an install or an update. Yes, I would agree. I meant get used to the install and update

On 8/8/20 9:52 AM, Per Jessen wrote: procedures :-) Going through the install or update procedures is not at all difficult in suse.  They're basically the same for every distro I've installed or updated in the past twenty-five years.  So that part is no mystery at all.  I would say, though, that opensuse provides noticeably less information about what it's doing than other distros I've installed.

They both work very well, but I could imagine they still take some getting used to when you're coming from other distros. I didn't find that at all... well, except for the lack of information about what it's doing.  For example, other distros show, often graphically which partitions are available, names them, shows their sizes, etc., and clues the user into where it will install the new software.  All that was a black box with the suse installs and updates.

You should also consider that Tumbleweed is bleeding edge and might require some fiddling. If you want stable and conversative, go for Leap 15.2.

:) That's what I was coming from, what was previously installed.

...

And if it was a common problem, I would have read more about it in this list.  My guess at this point is that opensuse can't deal for some reason with the previous (CentOS) distro installed on this machine... as shown in my email prior to your reply.  I don't know why a previously installed distro would screw up an opensuse install.  Shouldn't it overwrite the previous boot sector... or at least ask me during the install process whether I want it or not? If YaST finds traces of another distro, it will likely to try accommodate it in the boot-setup. Just guessing - I never do multi-boot installations myself, but I'm sure we have many users here who do. They might be able to help. I wasn't trying to do a multi-boot install.  When I did the install some years ago, I was replacing one Linux distro with another.

Now that you mention it, I didn't see anything in the opensuse install procedures which offered the option of doing a multi-boot.  I've done a lot of those in the past with other distros and it was a dirt-simple thing to do. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/08/2020 00.33, ken wrote:

On 8/8/20 12:27 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

ken wrote:

...

...

ken wrote:

It's a little hard to get used to the system failing to boot after either an install or an update. Yes, I would agree. I meant get used to the install and update

On 8/8/20 9:52 AM, Per Jessen wrote: procedures :-) Going through the install or update procedures is not at all difficult in suse.  They're basically the same for every distro I've installed or updated in the past twenty-five years.  So that part is no mystery at all.  I would say, though, that opensuse provides noticeably less information about what it's doing than other distros I've installed.

...

They both work very well, but I could imagine they still take some getting used to when you're coming from other distros. I didn't find that at all... well, except for the lack of information about what it's doing.  For example, other distros show, often graphically which partitions are available, names them, shows their sizes, etc., and clues the user into where it will install the new software.  All that was a black box with the suse installs and updates.

openSUSE does display a very detailed disks and partition information, but not if you simply accept the default offering. You have to click somewhere.

...

You should also consider that Tumbleweed is bleeding edge and might require some fiddling. If you want stable and conversative, go for Leap 15.2.

:) That's what I was coming from, what was previously installed.

...

...

And if it was a common problem, I would have read more about it in this list.  My guess at this point is that opensuse can't deal for some reason with the previous (CentOS) distro installed on this machine... as shown in my email prior to your reply.  I don't know why a previously installed distro would screw up an opensuse install.  Shouldn't it overwrite the previous boot sector... or at least ask me during the install process whether I want it or not? If YaST finds traces of another distro, it will likely to try accommodate it in the boot-setup. Just guessing - I never do multi-boot installations myself, but I'm sure we have many users here who do. They might be able to help. I wasn't trying to do a multi-boot install.  When I did the install some years ago, I was replacing one Linux distro with another.

Now that you mention it, I didn't see anything in the opensuse install procedures which offered the option of doing a multi-boot.  I've done a lot of those in the past with other distros and it was a dirt-simple thing to do.

I have done multiboot installations with openSUSE, no problem. In my case, Windows and other openSUSE systems. You will not find a menu labelled "multiboot". You have to decide how to do it in your head. What it does do is trying to keep other systems intact, which is not trivial and some times fails. It is easier with UEFI, which is actually born multiboot. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

ken composed on 2020-08-07 19:24 (UTC-0400):

I have to say that opensuse has the suckiest install and update procedures of any Linux system I've installed since SLS (Soft Landing Systems) in 1992. I found the SuSE 8.0/8.1/8.2 installers 17 years ago the best I had ever used. The Leap and TW installers remain the best I've ever used, which include RedHat, Fedora, CentOS, Mandrake/Mandriva/Mageia, Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, OS/2, Windows and others, on hundreds of installations, on dozens of multiboot PCs.

I find zypper to be far and away the best cmdline package management system ever encountered, and YaST the best GUI, also by far. -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 8/7/20 7:24 PM, ken wrote:

and what the last update did:

# efibootmgr -v BootCurrent: 0002 Timeout: 0 seconds BootOrder: 0003,3003,0000,0002,0000,2001,2002,2004 Boot0000* openSUSE HD(1,GPT,41ed6387-b441-4000-bc82-0d855e43c971,0x800,0x1e000)/File(\EFI\opensuse\grubx64.efi)RC Boot0001* openSUSE HD(8,GPT,45f7b14b-05f5-433d-b01d-17c097200179,0x1e800,0x64000)/File(\EFI\opensuse\grubx64.efi)RC Boot0002* opensuse-secureboot HD(8,GPT,45f7b14b-05f5-433d-b01d-17c097200179,0x1e800,0x64000)/File(\EFI\opensuse\shim.efi) Boot0003* CentOS Linux HD(1,GPT,41ed6387-b441-4000-bc82-0d855e43c971,0x800,0x1e000)/File(\EFI\centos\shim.efi) Boot2001* EFI USB Device    RC Boot2002* EFI DVD/CDROM    RC Boot3003* Internal Hard Disk or Solid State Disk    RC

Note that somehow my previous distro's (CentOS's) entry remained through three opensuse installs and two updates! Note also that CentOS (which is long gone) is the first item in the boot order! Note too that the last specification in the boot order points to a line which doesn't exist! There's other nonsense here, but I'm already belaboring my point.

I no expert in this area, but I suspect the problem is with the CentOS shim installed on the hd1 disk, which is apparently configured as the boot disk.  Shim is boot stage1 code used with UEFI and Secure Boot.  It contains a certificate signed by the distro that links to the signed grub that gets installed, so the CentOS shim will be incompatible with openSUSE (or any other distro).  Either that needs to replaced or Secure Boot must be disabled.  I don't think a distro will automatically over-write another distro's signed shim, but the third link below shows how to reinstall the shim so that might over-write the CentOS shim on hd1. YaST Bootloader detects Secure Boot and can install shim and a signed grub accordingly, or it can disable Secure Boot.  If this area is unfamiliar, suggest reading up on it before trying anything or you may bork your system. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:UEFI https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/reference/html/book.opensuse.ref... https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/reference/html/book-opensuse-ref... https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/528400-Repair-a-broken-UEFI-GRUB2... Finally, you need to be certain that hd1 is your preferred boot disk and matches your bios setup, looks like you have opensuse installed on hd8 with Secure Boot.  Or change the boot partition to be whatever hd8 is?  At present your machine is trying to boot from hd1 that will never work as it is.  When grub is installed it creates its a device.map on the fly which tries (guesses) to map to the boot order defined in bios; you can manually create a device.map to specify this to ensure it will be correctly done.  Or in YaST Bootloader you can also define the boot order and it will use that for device.map. --dg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/08/2020 21.42, ken wrote:

On 8/7/20 2:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 07/08/2020 19.45, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

On 8/7/20 12:31 PM, ken wrote:

...

I'm on Tumbleweed too, but can't find "Window Management" OR "Workspace" group anywhere.  I think I need a Ph.D. in pointing and clicking.  :)

This may be a dumb question, but what desktop are you using?

And what was the previous way? To me it has always been alt-tab.

It took five messages to find out it was on Tumbleweed.

It still is alt-tab.  But how it works is different.  Scenario:  I have two Firefox windows open along with thirty other apps.  I want to switch from one FF to the other. I press alt-tab, keep holding down the alt while tapping on the tab to cycle through all those other thirty apps until I come back to FF.  When I stop there, two additional FF icons/widgets appear below, then I move the mouse pointer to click on the particular one of the two FF windows I want to move the focus to. Madness.

Sorry, I thought just about everyone is using TW.

Certainly not, far from it.

  I should have mentioned at the outset though that I was on Gnome.

Ok, I'm on XFCE. I think what you describe may called tab grouping and should be configurable. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 8/8/20 10:28 AM, Atri Bhattacharya wrote:

Hi Ken,

...

It still is alt-tab. But how it works is different. Scenario: I have two Firefox windows open along with thirty other apps. I want to switch from one FF to the other. I press alt-tab, keep holding down the alt while tapping on the tab to cycle through all those other thirty apps until I come back to FF. When I stop there, two additional FF icons/widgets appear below, then I move the mouse pointer to click on the particular one of the two FF windows I want to move the focus to. Madness. It's easy to change this default behaviour. I am among the people who

On Fri, 2020-08-07 at 15:42 -0400, ken wrote: prefer the default "mad" way, but you can just open Keyboard shortcuts in the Settings (gnome-control-center) application and set "Switch windows" to your desired shortcut, e.g. Alt+Tab. That's it.

There's a video here that may help too: https://blogs.gnome.org/fmuellner/2018/10/11/the-future-of-alternatetab-and-...

Hope that helps and best wishes.

That worked.  Thanks very much.  Sanity restored.  :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* ken [08-07-20 15:23]:

On 8/7/20 1:45 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

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On 8/7/20 12:31 PM, ken wrote:

...

I'm on Tumbleweed too, but can't find "Window Management" OR "Workspace" group anywhere.  I think I need a Ph.D. in pointing and clicking.  :) This may be a dumb question, but what desktop are you using? No, that's a good question.  Gnome.

gee, and systemsettings5 is a kde app. and I don't use gnome and have no idea what app changes it's configs -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org