[SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is the names
Sorry I have not gotten back to the many responses I received. A little lightning went a long ways. Back up now but I lost some messages so If I miss anyone my apology. Here are some sites which were a big help that were offered in some of the first messages. freshmeat.net linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml gnuwin.epfl.ch/apps/en/index.html With these I can find most/all of the things I need. My thanks to the persons who offered them. Luckily I had saved them in bookmarks before I lost the messages. The only point I was trying to make with all this was I like linux and I am not as fond of win. I wanted to help other linux newbies get up to speed fast so they are not tempted to go back and I still think the best way to do that is to make it as easy as possible for them to stay the course. I think some kind of FAQ with this information in it would be a help. I will try to post these and any others people send me if you think it would be helpful. Let me know what you think! Bob
Robert wrote regarding '[SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 12:52: [...]
newbies get up to speed fast so they are not tempted to go back and I still think the best way to do that is to make it as easy as possible for them to stay the course. I think some kind of FAQ with this information in it would be a help. I will try to post these and any others people send me if you think it would be helpful.
The problem with a FAQ is the same as the problem with freshmeat.net, and with all of the other resources (like the docs found at ldp.org). Newbies don't know that they exist, so they don't find them. I suppose there could be a weekly posting of a FAQ like on some lists, but then there'd be a whole bunch of those things archived (or another thing to keep track of for the archive/list admins - exceptions are always bad if they can be avoided). Basically, it seems to me that we already have about teh best solution possible - a bunch of experts and people with experience in several areas that watch a list and respond to questions when someone finally finds the list... --Danny, now two cents poorer
On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 14:34, Danny Sauer wrote:
The problem with a FAQ is the same as the problem with freshmeat.net, and with all of the other resources (like the docs found at ldp.org). Newbies don't know that they exist, so they don't find them. I suppose there could be a weekly posting of a FAQ like on some lists, but then there'd be a whole bunch of those things archived (or another thing to keep track of for the archive/list admins - exceptions are always bad if they can be avoided).
Basically, it seems to me that we already have about teh best solution possible - a bunch of experts and people with experience in several areas that watch a list and respond to questions when someone finally finds the list...
--Danny, now two cents poorer
But then if they are on the list they only need look at the bottom of every message to see the link to the FAQ site. -- Ken Schneider unix user since 1989 linux user since 1994 SuSE user since 1998 (5.2) * PLEASE only reply to the list *
On Thursday 26 August 2004 14:51, Ken Schneider wrote:
But then if they are on the list they only need look at the bottom of every message to see the link to the FAQ site.
-- Ken Schneider unix user since 1989 linux user since 1994 SuSE user since 1998 (5.2) * PLEASE only reply to the list *
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
I get a link to the archive, but an email link to the FAQ. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG, Nabu CP/M disks Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca
Ken wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 13:51:
On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 14:34, Danny Sauer wrote:
The problem with a FAQ is the same as the problem with freshmeat.net, and with all of the other resources (like the docs found at ldp.org). Newbies don't know that they exist, so they don't find them. I suppose there could be a weekly posting of a FAQ like on some lists, but then there'd be a whole bunch of those things archived (or another thing to keep track of for the archive/list admins - exceptions are always bad if they can be avoided).
Basically, it seems to me that we already have about the best solution possible - a bunch of experts and people with experience in several areas that watch a list and respond to questions when someone finally finds the list...
--Danny, now two cents poorer
But then if they are on the list they only need look at the bottom of every message to see the link to the FAQ site.
There you go - the problem's already solved. :) --Danny
Ken wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is
On Thursday 26 August 2004 22:29, Danny Sauer wrote: the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 13:51:
But then if they are on the list they only need look at the bottom of every message to see the link to the FAQ site.
There you go - the problem's already solved. :)
No it isn't, no one ever reads it. witness the number of people who write asking the very first question on the FAQ, and the number of people who reply proving that they haven't read it either
Anders wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 15:34:
Ken wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is
On Thursday 26 August 2004 22:29, Danny Sauer wrote: the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 13:51:
But then if they are on the list they only need look at the bottom of every message to see the link to the FAQ site.
There you go - the problem's already solved. :)
No it isn't, no one ever reads it. witness the number of people who write asking the very first question on the FAQ, and the number of people who reply proving that they haven't read it either
Maybe it'd be helpful if there were a couple of lines like the following, included in every subscription confirmation: Q4. How can I retrieve the FAQ? A4. Send an email to suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com I'll bet *that* would solve the problem. :) --Danny, who violates/rehashes most of the things in the FAQ regularly...
* Danny Sauer
Maybe it'd be helpful if there were a couple of lines like the following, included in every subscription confirmation:
Q4. How can I retrieve the FAQ? A4. Send an email to suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
I'll bet *that* would solve the problem. :)
--Danny, who violates/rehashes most of the things in the FAQ regularly...
well said (your last line).
Anders *said* that people did not read the posting's trailer. People
fail to read most notices.
ie (from the 'WELCO"ME to suse-linux-e@suse.com" message which is sent
to every subscriber after they confirm their subscription):
<quote>
Please read the following frequently asked, frequently asked questions
before posting to the list. As with any mailing list or newsgroup,
it's usually a good idea to read the list for a few days before
posting. At the very least, retreive the list FAQ now (and read it)
by mailing
Torsdag den 26. august 2004 20:34 skrev Danny Sauer:
Robert wrote regarding '[SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 12:52: [...]
newbies get up to speed fast so they are not tempted to go back and I still think the best way to do that is to make it as easy as possible for them to stay the course. I think some kind of FAQ with this information in it would be a help. I will try to post these and any others people send me if you think it would be helpful.
The problem with a FAQ is the same as the problem with freshmeat.net, and with all of the other resources (like the docs found at ldp.org). Newbies don't know that they exist, so they don't find them. I suppose there could be a weekly posting of a FAQ like on some lists, but then there'd be a whole bunch of those things archived (or another thing to keep track of for the archive/list admins - exceptions are always bad if they can be avoided).
I disagree partly. The linux word should think more about how they made the learningcurve less steep when we get beyond the desktop.
Basically, it seems to me that we already have about teh best solution possible - a bunch of experts and people with experience in several areas that watch a list and respond to questions when someone finally finds the list...
--Danny, now two cents poorer
Johan wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 16:00:
Torsdag den 26. august 2004 20:34 skrev Danny Sauer:
The problem with a FAQ is the same as the problem with freshmeat.net, and with all of the other resources (like the docs found at ldp.org). Newbies don't know that they exist, so they don't find them. I suppose there could be a weekly posting of a FAQ like on some lists, but then there'd be a whole bunch of those things archived (or another thing to keep track of for the archive/list admins - exceptions are always bad if they can be avoided).
I disagree partly.
The linux word should think more about how they made the learningcurve less steep when we get beyond the desktop.
What part do you disagree with? --Danny, pretty sure that the windows registry and MacOS's BSD core have pretty steep learning curves, too - steeper than Linux "beyond the desktop"
Johan wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is
Torsdag den 26. august 2004 23:16 skrev Danny Sauer: the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 16:00:
Torsdag den 26. august 2004 20:34 skrev Danny Sauer:
The problem with a FAQ is the same as the problem with freshmeat.net, and with all of the other resources (like the docs found at ldp.org). Newbies don't know that they exist, so they don't find them. I suppose there could be a weekly posting of a FAQ like on some lists, but then there'd be a whole bunch of those things archived (or another thing to keep track of for the archive/list admins - exceptions are always bad if they can be avoided).
I disagree partly.
The linux word should think more about how they made the learningcurve less steep when we get beyond the desktop.
What part do you disagree with?
They do know that the info is "around" on the net and install-media, but learning takes some effort besides ensuring enough oxygen to stay alive. Many times things (Howto's/information about linux) get a little to "nerdy". 2'ndly a lot misinterprete the community and 3'rdly some even missuse the nice people in the community (other linuxusers and SuSE from time to time .... but that's another story).
--Danny, pretty sure that the windows registry and MacOS's BSD core have pretty steep learning curves, too - steeper than Linux "beyond the desktop"
Johan wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 17:34:
Johan wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is
Torsdag den 26. august 2004 23:16 skrev Danny Sauer: the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 16:00:
Torsdag den 26. august 2004 20:34 skrev Danny Sauer:
The problem with a FAQ is the same as the problem with freshmeat.net, and with all of the other resources (like the docs found at ldp.org). Newbies don't know that they exist, so they don't find them. I [...] I disagree partly. [...] What part do you disagree with?
They do know that the info is "around" on the net and install-media, but learning takes some effort besides ensuring enough oxygen to stay alive.
Many times things (Howto's/information about linux) get a little to "nerdy". 2'ndly a lot misinterprete the community and 3'rdly some even missuse the nice people in the community (other linuxusers and SuSE from time to time .... but that's another story).
So, learning should be effortless? That'd be great, but what precendent are we in the community to follow? Can you cite a resource for some other operating system that goes beyond the initial desktop, but is not nerdy or otherwise hard to follow? Granted, I'm a big ol' geek, but I've never seen a system that has more documentation than Linux. I've run a lot of systems (there's a machine in my basement running each of NeXT Step, Mac OS 7.6, Windows 98, Windows 2000, SuSE, RedHat, Slackware, NetBSD, SunOS, and BeOS right now - and I've played with countless others), but none are nearly as well documented as Linux. Unfortunately, one does have to look for the docs, but SuSE - for example - comes with a few big friggin' books when you buy the boxed distro. Those books answer pretty much every question a home user will find, and most questions a network admin will come up with. Most of the more complicated questions can probably be handled by the tech support included with purchase (ever call Microsoft? it's an awful experience, from what I've heard) or by using supported hardware. I dunno. It seems to me that most people's usability complaints boil down to "this isn't just like windows". It all comes back to Anders' comment when he said that people need to realize that KDE, for example, is gonna be different than other systems. Then they have to learn how to get around, which is pretty easy if they do what "seems right" instead of what "seems like windows". I agree that it'd be nice to have information collected a little more cohesively, but really all anyone needs is the included docs (in PDF on the FTP version, IIRC), google, and this list. Oh, and some patience + willingness to learn a *new* system. IMHO, of course, and it does happen that I'm wrong sometimes. Probably not this time, though. :) --Danny, staying on-list in the hopes that someone will find a learning "magic bullet" and post that for all to enjoy ;)
Fredag den 27. august 2004 17:18 skrev Danny Sauer:
Johan wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 17:34:
Johan wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] The trouble converting from win to suse is
Torsdag den 26. august 2004 23:16 skrev Danny Sauer: the names' on Thu, Aug 26 at 16:00:
Torsdag den 26. august 2004 20:34 skrev Danny Sauer:
The problem with a FAQ is the same as the problem with freshmeat.net, and with all of the other resources (like the docs found at ldp.org). Newbies don't know that they exist, so they don't find them. I [...] I disagree partly. [...] What part do you disagree with?
They do know that the info is "around" on the net and install-media, but learning takes some effort besides ensuring enough oxygen to stay alive.
Many times things (Howto's/information about linux) get a little to "nerdy". 2'ndly a lot misinterprete the community and 3'rdly some even missuse the nice people in the community (other linuxusers and SuSE from time to time .... but that's another story).
So, learning should be effortless?
Nope - did I Imply say that
That'd be great, but what precendent are we in the community to follow? Can you cite a resource for some other operating system that goes beyond the initial desktop, but is not nerdy or otherwise hard to follow?
Aquiring knowledge always has a learningcurve - the one for linux is just more steep.
Granted, I'm a big ol' geek, but I've never seen a system that has more documentation than Linux. I've run a lot of systems (there's a machine in my basement running each of NeXT Step, Mac OS 7.6, Windows 98, Windows 2000, SuSE, RedHat, Slackware, NetBSD, SunOS, and BeOS right now - and I've played with countless others), but none are nearly as well documented as Linux. Unfortunately, one does have to look for the docs, but SuSE - for example - comes with a few big friggin' books when you buy the boxed distro.
Yes I know - been on the SuSE drug since ver. 6. And they're always missing some description of some of their own stuff (EX. REPAIR OPTION from boot-media).
Those books answer pretty much every question a home user will find, and most questions a network admin will come up with. Most of the more complicated questions can probably be handled by the tech support included with purchase (ever call Microsoft? it's an awful experience, from what I've heard) or by using supported hardware.
he he ... call MS .... never so seems I saved a lot of trouble there.
I dunno. It seems to me that most people's usability complaints boil down to "this isn't just like windows".
Well not for me.
It all comes back to Anders' comment when he said that people need to realize that KDE, for example, is gonna be different than other systems. Then they have to learn how to get around, which is pretty easy if they do what "seems right" instead of what "seems like windows".
I don't mind that things change if it's going "forward" (don't ask me what forward is ;-) ).
I agree that it'd be nice to have information collected a little more cohesively, but really all anyone needs is the included docs (in PDF on
That was my point ( know I my eyes was small and head heavy when I composed my former reply).
the FTP version, IIRC), google, and this list. Oh, and some patience + willingness to learn a *new* system. IMHO, of course, and it does happen that I'm wrong sometimes. Probably not this time, though. :)
Happens to all of us.
--Danny, staying on-list in the hopes that someone will find a learning "magic bullet" and post that for all to enjoy ;)
Robert A. Rawlinson wrote:
Sorry I have not gotten back to the many responses I received. A little lightning went a long ways. Back up now but I lost some messages so If I miss anyone my apology. Here are some sites which were a big help that were offered in some of the first messages.
freshmeat.net linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml gnuwin.epfl.ch/apps/en/index.html
With these I can find most/all of the things I need. My thanks to the persons who offered them. Luckily I had saved them in bookmarks before I lost the messages.
The only point I was trying to make with all this was I like linux and I am not as fond of win. I wanted to help other linux newbies get up to speed fast so they are not tempted to go back and I still think the best way to do that is to make it as easy as possible for them to stay the course. I think some kind of FAQ with this information in it would be a help. I will try to post these and any others people send me if you think it would be helpful. Let me know what you think! Bob
It wouldn't be a bad idea if the distros would flash this sort of thing up during install or place it in TIPS after the machine is rebooted -- in the Manual would also be a good place. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and keen Flyer =====LINUX ONLY USED HERE=====
participants (8)
-
Anders Johansson -
Danny Sauer -
Johan Nielsen -
Ken Schneider -
Mike Kenzie -
Patrick Shanahan -
Robert A. Rawlinson -
Sid Boyce