Re: [opensuse] Bye bye SuSE?
Thierry de Coulon wrote:
But calling KDE 4 "crapware" is an insult to the developpers work.
Thierry
How about "Linux Vista"? -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
2008/10/22 James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com>:
Thierry de Coulon wrote:
But calling KDE 4 "crapware" is an insult to the developpers work.
Thierry
How about "Linux Vista"?
Not without this: http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/ (and "crapware" is too harsh. it was never the KDE team's goal to replicate KDE 3) -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
Dotan Cohen wrote:
2008/10/22 James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com>:
Thierry de Coulon wrote:
But calling KDE 4 "crapware" is an insult to the developpers work.
Thierry
How about "Linux Vista"?
Not without this: http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/
(and "crapware" is too harsh. it was never the KDE team's goal to replicate KDE 3)
If they substantially reduce functionality in favour of eye candy and and force us to use it, instead of 3.5 or equivalent, it is indeed crapware. I don't want a dumbed down computer that looks "pretty". By all means create a desktop for beginners, but don't force it on experienced users. If I wanted that, I could run Windows. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 22 October 2008 15:26, James Knott wrote:
I don't want a dumbed down computer that looks "pretty". By all means create a desktop for beginners, but don't force it on experienced users. If I wanted that, I could run Windows. The eye candy fad will also pass.... albeit not soon enough I fear.
Having said that, I must admit that I appreciate the "art," and if the desk is fully functional *first* then make it as beautiful as possible... beautiful is good. However, beautiful should *never* supersede function. infrastructure first, facade second -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
M Harris wrote:
On Wednesday 22 October 2008 15:26, James Knott wrote:
I don't want a dumbed down computer that looks "pretty". By all means create a desktop for beginners, but don't force it on experienced users. If I wanted that, I could run Windows.
The eye candy fad will also pass.... albeit not soon enough I fear.
Having said that, I must admit that I appreciate the "art," and if the desk is fully functional *first* then make it as beautiful as possible... beautiful is good. However, beautiful should *never* supersede function.
infrastructure first, facade second
And no stupid animations! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 22 October 2008 04:33:57 pm James Knott wrote:
infrastructure first, facade second
And no stupid animations!
Aye-aye Sir. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
2008/10/22 James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com>:
If they substantially reduce functionality in favour of eye candy and and force us to use it, instead of 3.5 or equivalent, it is indeed crapware.
I'll bite, as that is the current arguement against Vista. But this is not what the KDE team did. 1) They did not reduce functionality in favour of eye candy. KDE 4.x has eyecandy, and does not have some functions of KDE 3.x (such that I cannot use it), but the tradeoff was neither intentional nor permanent. 2) KDE 3.x is still being developed, just recently 3.5.10 came out. KDE 3.6 may or may not be, but 3.5.11 almost certainly will.
I don't want a dumbed down computer that looks "pretty". By all means create a desktop for beginners, but don't force it on experienced users. If I wanted that, I could run Windows.
Agreed, 100%. But that is not what happened with KDE 4. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
On October 22, 2008 12:01:28 pm Dotan Cohen wrote:
2008/10/22 James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com>:
Thierry de Coulon wrote:
But calling KDE 4 "crapware" is an insult to the developpers work.
Thierry
How about "Linux Vista"?
Not without this: http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/
(and "crapware" is too harsh. it was never the KDE team's goal to replicate KDE 3)
Frankly, that's what pisses many people off. Here we had a highly polished version of KDE 3.5, with almost everything working very well. Then instead of refining 3.5 we toss the baby out with the bath water and start all over again. For what? As a result, we get to wait a long time before KDE 4 is as functional as 3.5, AND we have to learn a whole bunch of new ways to get our jobs done. None of the #$@!!! plasmoids or eye candy are worth the aggravation, as far as I'm concerned. I don't give a hoot about 3D or fancy graphics, I just want my computer to work reliably all the time. -- bob@rsmits.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 23 October 2008, Robert Smits wrote:
On October 22, 2008 12:01:28 pm Dotan Cohen wrote:
2008/10/22 James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com>:
Thierry de Coulon wrote:
But calling KDE 4 "crapware" is an insult to the developpers work.
Thierry
How about "Linux Vista"?
Not without this: http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/
(and "crapware" is too harsh. it was never the KDE team's goal to replicate KDE 3)
Frankly, that's what pisses many people off.
Here we had a highly polished version of KDE 3.5, with almost everything working very well.
Err, sorry to butt in with something not too important, but frankly, KDE 3.5 never was very stable -- at least not in the kinds of use of I have put it through. Where my desktop use differs from the average user is in that due to my accessibility needs I have to employ high contrast colour settings. Not a big deal, one might say: Simply change the colours in KControl and be done with it. Too bad almost everything in KDE breaks once you deviate from the "black text on a whitish background" thinking. (Unlike, say, on Windows XP) Konqueror's accessibility stylesheet feature is more or less broken, too. And for some reason the option to load plugins only on demand has not worked since 3.5.5 or 3.5.3 (can't remember.) KMail renders HTML mail with no heed to Konqueror's style sheet settings, resulting in HTML mail that I simply cannot read. There are many other bugs in Kmail, too, and it leaks memory when transferring messages between IMAP accounts. (Thank God there's always for Pine for jobs like that.) The Kontact suite adds more problems. There are even very basic text editing bugs in the text editor part that Kate and others use. So I have to run Emacs in Konsole. These are known and reported bugs, but will not be fixed as 3.5 is dead and buried. The sheer number of serious UI rendering bugs in 3.5 under high contrast mode is astonishing. (Serious=Text disappears or is forcefully rendered as white on top of white background or vice versa) I personally give a damn about prettyness -- having been using accessibility modes for years has alienated me from anything even remotely "pretty" -- I only need things to work. I even force my own colours onto web pages and have them to use sensible fonts and font sizes. The other day I had to use for a moment a desktop with default UI settings and had to access a certain web site. I was surprised how nice the web looks these days with normal font sizes and colours, instead of the white-on-black web I live in. LOL. I have reported KDE bugs over the years. I don't know if even one has been fixed despite their being reproduceable. I think KDE developer community is undermanned, but that's probably true for most open source projects these days. There are not enough developers. But that won't change the fact that KDE 3.5.10 is not polished or stable. I've been forced to use Windows at work for the last couple of weeks (first time since 2001), and I was surprised how well it works under highcontrast settings. I almost got the feeling that some one has had the mode tested before sending the code to CD presses. The problem with Windows is that it is very difficult to use and inefficient to work with. Also, most of the software that I use and have got used to is native to *NIX and probably not available on Windows. I've narrowed my next desktop options down to Gnome and Windows, though Vista is not exactly what I would like to run on my desktop. Still, I don't know yet which will come on top. Probably Gnome. At least it runs with SUSE and is much more consistent than KDE is, which lessens the number of (and the risk for) stupid UI bugs with the price of being less configurable. And KDE 4 looks like a disaster anyway -- a poor man's version of Vista or something. KDE 3.5 was, despite its numerous bugs, always a user's desktop. It is very unfortunate if KDE developers no longer want to carry that heritage, but simply content with adding fudge onto a Windows-like core. I'll build a new system next spring or thereabout, so we'll see then. Gnome looks like the most promising environment for the next couple of years or so. Unfortunately, SUSE is not exactly a GNOME-distro (I've never quite gotten it to work under SUSE, or at least not since 8.1), so a switch to Gnome would likely entail a switch to another distro as well, which I would not like to do if I'm to stay on Linux... ah well. Regards, Tero Pesonen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
2008/10/24 Tero Pesonen <teropesonen@tuffmail.com>:
Err, sorry to butt in with something not too important, but frankly, KDE 3.5 never was very stable -- at least not in the kinds of use of I have put it through. Where my desktop use differs from the average user is in that due to my accessibility needs I have to employ high contrast colour settings. Not a big deal, one might say: Simply change the colours in KControl and be done with it. Too bad almost everything in KDE breaks once you deviate from the "black text on a whitish background" thinking. (Unlike, say, on Windows XP) Konqueror's accessibility stylesheet feature is more or less broken, too. And for some reason the option to load plugins only on demand has not worked since 3.5.5 or 3.5.3 (can't remember.) KMail renders HTML mail with no heed to Konqueror's style sheet settings, resulting in HTML mail that I simply cannot read. There are many other bugs in Kmail, too, and it leaks memory when transferring messages between IMAP accounts. (Thank God there's always for Pine for jobs like that.) The Kontact suite adds more problems.
There are even very basic text editing bugs in the text editor part that Kate and others use. So I have to run Emacs in Konsole. These are known and reported bugs, but will not be fixed as 3.5 is dead and buried. The sheer number of serious UI rendering bugs in 3.5 under high contrast mode is astonishing. (Serious=Text disappears or is forcefully rendered as white on top of white background or vice versa) I personally give a damn about prettyness -- having been using accessibility modes for years has alienated me from anything even remotely "pretty" -- I only need things to work. I even force my own colours onto web pages and have them to use sensible fonts and font sizes. The other day I had to use for a moment a desktop with default UI settings and had to access a certain web site. I was surprised how nice the web looks these days with normal font sizes and colours, instead of the white-on-black web I live in. LOL.
I have reported KDE bugs over the years. I don't know if even one has been fixed despite their being reproduceable. I think KDE developer community is undermanned, but that's probably true for most open source projects these days. There are not enough developers.
But that won't change the fact that KDE 3.5.10 is not polished or stable. I've been forced to use Windows at work for the last couple of weeks (first time since 2001), and I was surprised how well it works under highcontrast settings. I almost got the feeling that some one has had the mode tested before sending the code to CD presses.
The problem with Windows is that it is very difficult to use and inefficient to work with. Also, most of the software that I use and have got used to is native to *NIX and probably not available on Windows.
I've narrowed my next desktop options down to Gnome and Windows, though Vista is not exactly what I would like to run on my desktop. Still, I don't know yet which will come on top. Probably Gnome. At least it runs with SUSE and is much more consistent than KDE is, which lessens the number of (and the risk for) stupid UI bugs with the price of being less configurable. And KDE 4 looks like a disaster anyway -- a poor man's version of Vista or something. KDE 3.5 was, despite its numerous bugs, always a user's desktop. It is very unfortunate if KDE developers no longer want to carry that heritage, but simply content with adding fudge onto a Windows-like core.
I'll build a new system next spring or thereabout, so we'll see then. Gnome looks like the most promising environment for the next couple of years or so. Unfortunately, SUSE is not exactly a GNOME-distro (I've never quite gotten it to work under SUSE, or at least not since 8.1), so a switch to Gnome would likely entail a switch to another distro as well, which I would not like to do if I'm to stay on Linux... ah well.
Could you post links to the bugs? I'd like to triage them. I also have accessibility issues, in fact, the one thing preventing me from moving to KDE 4.x is an accessibility issue. Other than that, almost all of the bugs that I have filed with KDE have been addressed. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2008-10-24 at 20:08 +0300, Tero Pesonen wrote: ...
I'll build a new system next spring or thereabout, so we'll see then. Gnome looks like the most promising environment for the next couple of years or so. Unfortunately, SUSE is not exactly a GNOME-distro (I've never quite gotten it to work under SUSE, or at least not since 8.1), so a switch to Gnome would likely entail a switch to another distro as well, which I would not like to do if I'm to stay on Linux... ah well.
I use Gnome on suse, and it works quite well. And I use quite some KDE apps on Gnome, too. However, I can't judge about accesibility issues on Gnome. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkGGLkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UiSwCfVpGUqrfX9gbUEKc7AeHd3xso IXIAn0O+EC7/VJCTQwkI2wJtkGVql6W1 =vrlr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (7)
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Carlos E. R. -
Dotan Cohen -
James Knott -
M Harris -
Rajko M. -
Robert Smits -
Tero Pesonen