Re: [opensuse] Where is libmagic in OpenSuSE 11.1?
Hi, JB2.
Please tell me, what do you mean about "top-post"? I don't understand.
Please give me another vocab or even explanation.
Lookslike you want to protest me but I can't understand. Better I make
sure to know where my mistake so I don't make a same mistake twice.
Thanks.
===
On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 09:35:37 -0500
JB2
On 22 September 09, you destroyed a keyboard just to get this out to the world:
You've solved my problem christian....
Thank you so much thousands time....
Please don't top-post to the openSUSE mailing list. Thanks!
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On Thursday 24 September 2009 16:48:53 Ricky Tompu Breaky wrote:
Hi, JB2.
Please tell me, what do you mean about "top-post"? I don't understand. Please give me another vocab or even explanation.
Top-posting is where you post your reply above the text you're replying to. This is a bad idea because it means that the reader has to scroll up and down to get the context for your reply, and also the top-poster generally doesn't snip out the bits that aren't being replied to. Top-posting is a little worse than bottom posting, where the posted does almost the exact same thing, except they scroll to the very bottom of the mail and start typing their reply. As with the top-poster, they generally don't bother to snip out any bits that they aren't replying to. The preferred method for the openSUSE lists, and many many others, is to reply inline. This is done by snipping out the bits of text that you aren't replying to, leaving just enough text to provide the context, and then adding replying to each specific points straight after the quoted text. As for a fuller explanation, you can find one here: URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: www.distributed.net OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s openSUSE 10.3 32b | openSUSE 11.0 32b | | openSUSE 10.3 64b | openSUSE 11.0 64b | openSUSE 11.1 64b | openSUSE 11.2m6 RISC OS 3.6 | RISC OS 3.11 | openSUSE 11.1 PPC | TOS 4.02 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi David...
Thank you very much for your generous explanation.
I'll take care of it for the nexttime.
===
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:15:55 +0100
David Bolt
On Thursday 24 September 2009 16:48:53 Ricky Tompu Breaky wrote:
Hi, JB2.
Please tell me, what do you mean about "top-post"? I don't understand. Please give me another vocab or even explanation.
Top-posting is where you post your reply above the text you're replying to. This is a bad idea because it means that the reader has to scroll up and down to get the context for your reply, and also the top-poster generally doesn't snip out the bits that aren't being replied to.
Top-posting is a little worse than bottom posting, where the posted does almost the exact same thing, except they scroll to the very bottom of the mail and start typing their reply. As with the top-poster, they generally don't bother to snip out any bits that they aren't replying to.
The preferred method for the openSUSE lists, and many many others, is to reply inline. This is done by snipping out the bits of text that you aren't replying to, leaving just enough text to provide the context, and then adding replying to each specific points straight after the quoted text.
As for a fuller explanation, you can find one here:
URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
Regards, David Bolt
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 24 Sep 2009 16:48:53 Ricky Tompu Breaky wrote:
Hi, JB2.
Please tell me, what do you mean about "top-post"? I don't understand. Please give me another vocab or even explanation.
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE instead of below where it follows thru and makes sense as opposed to TOP posting which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article. Pete .
Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first. Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing. Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content. Learn the essentials of writing. The important stuff goes first. Email is not a journal nor a "story", it's a discussion, where I put my answer first, and you put yours first in response. I don't need to reread what I just wrote to you, nor what I just read in the previous email. It's also hard on people who have RSI -- or at least it is for me, as it requires moving over to the scroll bar to scroll down -- or to do "something" to get to the real content. This archaic nonsense by militant hardliners has got to go. It doesn't make sense in any professional setting nor personal setting. It only makes sense if one is trying to build a story -- or a record that can be read from start to finish -- but that's not what email is about. It's about communication -- it wasn't designed to be a "log book". If you want logging, look at the previous emails. With any any half-way decent mail reader, threads are indented and with a neat addon (threadvis,threadvis.mozdev.org), you can see my point: conversations are not linear -- making the whole point of attempting 'journal' ordering pointless and misleading. I attached the image of this discussion -- it's spaghetti! Your post is the one farthest to the right. There were two other posts in between the post you responded to and you. You really should try out T-Bird. Works just fine on linux. BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda
* Linda Walsh
Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.
Which is disrespectful of your audience since the method of posting here *is* defined.
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
Bottom posting w/o trimming the quoted mat'l is just as bad as top posting and not trimming! And just as disrespectful.
Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content.
Not if the message is presented/formatted as our forum has described.
Learn the essentials of writing. The important stuff goes first. Email is not a journal nor a "story", it's a discussion, where I put my answer first, and you put yours first in response. I don't need to reread what I just wrote to you, nor what I just read in the previous email.
Your reasoning is faulty and many will ignore your posts. Read the netiquette on opensuse.org. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Linda Walsh
[09-25-09 09:06]: Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.
Which is disrespectful of your audience since the method of posting here *is* defined.
http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 25 September 2009 06:50:49 pm Dave Howorth wrote:
excerpt from the very beginning of the 'netiquette page': ----------------- Note: It is pointless to post an email that only warns about posting style. New openSUSE email users will feel unwanted and go away, and that is exactly what we don't want. If you don't want to read an email, then just skip it. If you want to answer, but prefer the posting style described below, state that at the end and link to this article for explanation. ----------------- that being said, there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting generally; exceptions may apply. IMO it's best to quote and post in a way that makes it easy to understand what's gong on, avoiding unnecessary clutter. -- phani -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 25 September 2009 07:17:39 pm phanisvara das wrote:
that being said, there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting generally; exceptions may apply.
oops, meant to say "...there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting...," of course. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri 25 Sep 2009 at 10:47:39 (-0300 UTC), phanisvara das wrote:
On Friday 25 September 2009 06:50:49 pm Dave Howorth wrote:
excerpt from the very beginning of the 'netiquette page':
----------------- Note: It is pointless to post an email that only warns about posting style.
New openSUSE email users will feel unwanted and go away, and that is exactly what we don't want. If you don't want to read an email, then just skip it. If you want to answer, but prefer the posting style described below, state that at the end and link to this article for explanation. -----------------
Oh my God! That's sounds like the teacher is learning from the student :-)
that being said, there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting generally; exceptions may apply.
IMO it's best to quote and post in a way that makes it easy to understand what's gong on, avoiding unnecessary clutter.
-- phani
Perfectly in agree with you Phani; it seems sometimes that "some "ancestral habits" are hard to die refusing new styles, independently if these were smarter,easier or not! -- Marco Calistri <amdturion> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Marco Calistri
On Fri 25 Sep 2009 at 10:47:39 (-0300 UTC), phanisvara das wrote:
On Friday 25 September 2009 06:50:49 pm Dave Howorth wrote:
excerpt from the very beginning of the 'netiquette page':
----------------- Note: It is pointless to post an email that only warns about posting style.
New openSUSE email users will feel unwanted and go away, and that is exactly what we don't want. If you don't want to read an email, then just skip it. If you want to answer, but prefer the posting style described below, state that at the end and link to this article for explanation. -----------------
Oh my God! That's sounds like the teacher is learning from the student :-)
that being said, there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting generally; exceptions may apply.
IMO it's best to quote and post in a way that makes it easy to understand what's gong on, avoiding unnecessary clutter.
-- phani
Perfectly in agree with you Phani; it seems sometimes that "some "ancestral habits" are hard to die refusing new styles, independently if these were smarter,easier or not!
Significant mailing lists like the kernel lists prefer bottom posting because the emails are archived for extended periods and are treated as reference materials. It is much easier to read a six month old email that is properly quoted and bottom posted than to read a top posted one (which I rarely see trimmed). So top posting is great for simple back and forth disposable communication. It is not useful for communications that are treated as of archival value. I'm not sure where the opensuse mailing lists fit on that scale, but I suspect there is archival value, but if so why are they not made available through major list search sites like markmail.org. Even opensolaris is available there: http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aopensolaris But nothing for opensuse: http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aopensuse Note that markmail.org tracks about 7,000 mailing lists. It has become my favorite site to search mailing lists due to its power and relative ease of use. My conclusion the netiquette rules for a list need to take into account the general level of communication on the list and its long term value. I participate on the lkml lists and they are clearly meant for archival purposes. I also participate on our local lug, and they clearly do not worry about the archival value of the communication. The opensuse lists seem to straddle the two worlds which makes it difficult. Many of the developers would like to see them treated by all as more formal. Many users treat them as very casual. I suspect that is the major reason we have so much culture clash on the opensuse lists in general. Greg -- Greg Freemyer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Indeed, have those complaining (on either side of the fence) ever read Gulliver's Travels? And just which end do you open your boiled eggs? "You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions." — Naguib Mahfouz ----- Original Message ----
From: phanisvara das
To: opensuse@opensuse.org Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 7:47:39 AM Subject: Re: [opensuse] bottom posting is, generally, inhumane; On Friday 25 September 2009 06:50:49 pm Dave Howorth wrote:
excerpt from the very beginning of the 'netiquette page':
----------------- Note: It is pointless to post an email that only warns about posting style.
New openSUSE email users will feel unwanted and go away, and that is exactly what we don't want. If you don't want to read an email, then just skip it. If you want to answer, but prefer the posting style described below, state that at the end and link to this article for explanation. -----------------
that being said, there are valid reasons to use top or interleaved posting generally; exceptions may apply.
IMO it's best to quote and post in a way that makes it easy to understand what's gong on, avoiding unnecessary clutter.
-- phani -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Simon Roberts wrote:
Indeed, have those complaining (on either side of the fence) ever read Gulliver's Travels? And just which end do you open your boiled eggs?
I generally don't complain...but those who do complain do so loudly about the way opposite I prefer. So in DEFENSE, I'm starting to complain about their complaining and point out that it creates accessibility handicaps for many -- like someone posting on a blackberry? They are supposed to include a page of previous text? Get a clue and stop complaining about how others post. I tend to be a very tolerant person with one exception. I can't tolerate intolerance! !?! :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Linda, I am in total agreement with you. I do both. I top post when I need to say something important or correct something that is - obviously - wrong. And I do bottom when it's - obvious - it needs to stay in the flow of the message. Duaine Linda Walsh wrote:
I generally don't complain...but those who do complain do so loudly about the way opposite I prefer. So in DEFENSE, I'm starting to complain about their complaining and point out that it creates accessibility handicaps for many -- like someone posting on a blackberry? They are supposed to include a page of previous text? Get a clue and stop complaining about how others post.
I tend to be a very tolerant person with one exception.
I can't tolerate intolerance!
!?! :-)
-- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 25 September 09, Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote: It was apparently a waste of my time defending you when you were down and the rest of the list ragged on you as if their panties would never unbunch from their cracks...now you act as if you've contracted 'stupid' too. Too bad. Like I said...looks like they came in a herd today. PLONK -- "Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical group of hand-wringing, bleeding-heart liberals, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 15:08 -0500, JB2 wrote: To all of you, Can you continue this discussion on the OT list..... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 September 2009 04:22:45 Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 15:08 -0500, JB2 wrote:
To all of you, Can you continue this discussion on the OT list.....
Please keep away from the OT list. This discussion is soo past. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 September 2009 10:37:27 am Constant Brouerius van Nidek wrote:
Please keep away from the OT list. This discussion is soo past.
agreed. but where _is_ the OT list? couldn't find it at http://lists.opensuse.org/ ... -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-09-26 at 11:00 +0530, phanisvara das wrote:
Please keep away from the OT list. This discussion is soo past.
agreed. but where _is_ the OT list? couldn't find it at http://lists.opensuse.org/ ...
It is there, but not listed nor archived. You have to subscribe via email. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq93UoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WWvQCffNiijqMwlHvZRT/6EmsrT02G JEAAnAmQiuLJ+wAxlGGt7ItmIZoN768J =I95M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 September 2009 00:30:36 phanisvara das wrote:
On Saturday 26 September 2009 10:37:27 am Constant Brouerius van Nidek
wrote:
Please keep away from the OT list. This discussion is soo past.
agreed. but where _is_ the OT list? couldn't find it at http://lists.opensuse.org/ ...
It is opensuse-offtopic@opensuse.org . I'm still wondering why it was removed from the list on the wiki. To subscribe use: mailto:opensuse-offtopic+subscribe@opensuse.org To unsubscribe (remove your email from the list) use: mailto:opensuse-offtopic+unsubscribe@opensuse.org -- Regards, Rajko People of openSUSE editor. Latest interviews: http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ About us: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-09-26 at 11:11 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
agreed. but where _is_ the OT list? couldn't find it at http://lists.opensuse.org/ ...
It is opensuse-offtopic@opensuse.org . I'm still wondering why it was removed from the list on the wiki.
I don't know about the wiki, but I know it is not listed on http://lists.opensuse.org/ on purpose. Why? Dunno. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq+YJIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WODgCdERwPztbswbfMTvxFGx8UMs0C ZS8AoJkaniDjIPSnEFY6RAOOhyU9ccx1 =+Mnj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2009-09-26 20:42, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Saturday, 2009-09-26 at 11:11 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
It is opensuse-offtopic@opensuse.org . I'm still wondering why it was removed from the list on the wiki.
It _is_ listed on the wiki: http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Mailinglists#Topic_Lists - scroll down and you'll see "opensuse-offtopic@opensuse.org - Discussions unrelated to openSUSE "
I don't know about the wiki, but I know it is not listed on http://lists.opensuse.org/ on purpose. Why? Dunno.
It is not listed there, because it is not being archived by opensuse. Why it is not being archived is another question, but the reasons seems fairly obvious - nothing of "importance" or related to opensuse should be posted there. I'm not sure though, you'll have to get a better answer from the mailing list admins. You can find archives of the offtopic list elsewhere though, such as archivum.info and mail-archive.com. It should be noted that most (all?) external sources stopped archiving the list in January 2009 (IIRC, there was a problem with the opensuse mailing list that unsubscribed a lot of people at that time, perhaps the external archives got unsubscribed too, and never re-subscribed)
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
/Sylvester -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-09-27 at 13:26 +0200, Sylvester Lykkehus wrote:
On 2009-09-26 20:42, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't know about the wiki, but I know it is not listed on http://lists.opensuse.org/ on purpose. Why? Dunno. It is not listed there, because it is not being archived by opensuse. Why it is not being archived is another question, but the reasons seems fairly obvious - nothing of "importance" or related to opensuse should be posted there. I'm not sure though, you'll have to get a better answer from the mailing list admins.
As far as not archiving that mail list, I understand; the list admin said somthing about not wanting to, time ago. But why not including the name of the list and how to subscribe, as for the rest of the lists, I can't hink of a (valid) reason.
You can find archives of the offtopic list elsewhere though, such as archivum.info and mail-archive.com. It should be noted that most (all?) external sources stopped archiving the list in January 2009 (IIRC, there was a problem with the opensuse mailing list that unsubscribed a lot of people at that time, perhaps the external archives got unsubscribed too, and never re-subscribed)
Shame on them... it proves they don't admin properly. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq/VB0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9ViaQCfcuWqFQX93wPB6wfqoyvYUBTx HboAnA6ZtobGrbA4X7EDsiR+lMGbasEw =zfoo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 September 2009 07:01:25 Carlos E. R. wrote:
But why not including the name of the list and how to subscribe, as for the rest of the lists, I can't hink of a (valid) reason.
Me neither, except that template has link to archives and it is invalid for this list, so I added it at the end under Misc, without link to archives. -- Regards, Rajko People of openSUSE editor. Latest interviews: http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ About us: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-09-27 at 08:22 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 27 September 2009 07:01:25 Carlos E. R. wrote:
But why not including the name of the list and how to subscribe, as for the rest of the lists, I can't hink of a (valid) reason.
Me neither, except that template has link to archives and it is invalid for this list, so I added it at the end under Misc, without link to archives.
I wasn't thinking of the wiki, but of http://lists.opensuse.org - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq/eYwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X7qQCfcJjSSySA30ojp4cJqF76VXEW 2joAoJKg9DCGGYUv99sOtaEVjT1a9ne4 =E8qu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 25 September 09, Linda Walsh, another idiot in a growing one on this list, wrote: Nothing worth reading, though it was enough to actually make the *third* person in 7 years to be plonked by me. Two in one day! The morons came in a herd I guess. PLONK -- The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -Tacitus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
JB2 wrote:
On 25 September 09, Linda Walsh, another idiot in a growing one on this list, ^^^^^
If there's anyone who desperately needs to be plonked than it's people using the above words in discussions. Pit -- Dr. Peter "Pit" Suetterlin http://www.astro.su.se/~pit Institute for Solar Physics Tel.: +34 922 405 590 (Spain) P.Suetterlin@royac.iac.es +46 8 5537 8534 (Sweden) Peter.Suetterlin@astro.su.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 28 September 2009 03:04:18 pm Pit Suetterlin wrote:
If there's anyone who desperately needs to be plonked than it's people using the above words in discussions.
he'll be taken as seriously as he deserves to. probably just a case of not allowing sufficient time to cool down before posting. not nice, but a common pitfall using mailing lists & discussion forums; don't think he would behave like this in a face-to-face meeting--at least i hope not. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 25 September 2009 10:53:34 Linda Walsh wrote:
I tend to be a very tolerant person with one exception.
I can't tolerate intolerance!
!?! :-)
:) The whole thread was derailed by one off list posting by guy that ignores http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette from the very first paragraph that was quoted few mails earlier. I guess he laughs on us now; how easy is to make us start off topic discussion. -- Regards, Rajko People of openSUSE editor. Latest interviews: http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ About us: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 25 Sep 2009 15:01:49 Simon Roberts wrote:
Indeed, have those complaining (on either side of the fence) ever read Gulliver's Travels? And just which end do you open your boiled eggs?
"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions." — Naguib Mahfouz
<plonk>
On 25 September 09, Simon Roberts top-posted like an ass just to show everyone up for some absurd reason:
Indeed
You're the second person I've ever plonked in 7 years on this list. If stupidity hurts, you must be in agony. PLONK -- "These Sarah Brady types must be educated to understand that because we have an armed citizenry, that a dictatorship has not happened in America. These anti-gun fools are more dangerous to Liberty than street criminals or foreign spies." - Theodore Haas, Dachau Survivor -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Linda Walsh wrote:
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
I often ignore the posts of those who top post. With top posting, a new reader has to read through much text in order to understand what it is all about. With answers in a logical order following quoted parts of the text to which the reply is given, it becomes much easier. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Per Inge Oestmoen
Linda Walsh wrote:
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
I often ignore the posts of those who top post.
With top posting, a new reader has to read through much text in order to understand what it is all about.
With answers in a logical order following quoted parts of the text to which the reply is given, it becomes much easier.
Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I understand that it's the group policies, but at time when I am on my blackberry, I can't help top post. What bugs me are the people that harp on than, that see that people are willing to help no matter where they are. I argee with Per, that it better to answer in logical order than to post at the bottom so it easier to follow. -- ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- http://en.opensuse.org/User:Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador openSUSE Member skype -- terrorpup twitter -- terrorpup Identica -- terrorpup freenode(irc) -- terrorpup/lupinstein. friendfeed -- http://friendfeed.com/terrorpup Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 14:36, Chuck Payne
I understand that it's the group policies, but at time when I am on my blackberry, I can't help top post. You do realize that you have the option of not posting right? I think instead of making excuses about what you post from, we all follow the netiquette for this list.
ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Jonathan Swift - "May you live every day of your life." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jonathan_swift.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
ne... wrote:
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 14:36, Chuck Payne
wrote: I understand that it's the group policies, but at time when I am on my blackberry, I can't help top post.
You do realize that you have the option of not posting right? I think instead of making excuses about what you post from, we all follow the netiquette for this list.
ne...
Actually I, as a firm bottom or interleave poster, accept things like this and people who have to use text-to-speech interfaces as reasonable excuses. I won't usually top-post _for_ them, unless the email is specifically directed at them, but I have no problem meeting them half way and reading their inconvenient posts bearing in mind that everything in inconvenient for them and all I have to do is read a post a little out of order. As someone else mentioned, one big reason top-posting is so bad is that it exhibits a lack of concern for anyone else but themselves. Well, I don't want to be guilty of that myself so if there is some reason a person can't, or can't easily, do anything but top-post, or can't quote as clearly as might be nice, well, I'd rather have them in the discussion and put up with the limitations of their blackberry or their text-to-speech software than not have them in the discussion. The ones who have no excuse but just insist on ignoring the requests because it doesn't make sense to _them_ and _they_ remember what _they_ wrote and so _they_ don't need to read anything but the new response without any context, those people I am perfectly happy to ignore and leave out of the discussion. They have shown themselves not to be very insightful thinkers and I doubt I should value many of their offerings. The insightful thinker who maybe comes to techy mail lists new, or who was simply not yet born when the basics of practical email protocol were worked out by smarter people that you or I, would ASK, "I don't understand the point of this rule. Why is it?" THAT is perfectly reasonable. That is a world of difference from the garbage Linda just spewed (and countless before and after her). Observing that some practice is "old" in no way implies that it is obsolete or no longer fits "todays world". Rather the opposite sometimes. Many "old" practices involving the internet were simply worked out very early on by the very smart people who then made up the entire population of the internet and it's precursors. Now the internet population basically reflects the general population, so of course by definition 90% of them, including 90-or-more% of those who complain about things like top-posting, are stupider and more ignorant than the elite class who developed those practices. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
So harsh tones here from some people, some even showing disrespect for those who do and think differently then the like. I agree with Greg Freemeyer that in some cases it is useful. I myself have contributed to some technical discussions in where the bottom posting was useful. At least, until the top part becomes so large that it is not convenient or in any other way helpful anymore. However, most discussion on the general opensuse list are not so interesting - to me - that archiving is needed. I feel that most people do not have any problem with bottom posting, if the purpose is clear. Meaning that most people do not blindly follow some rule because some other person tells them so. The days of blind following is long gone, now we need persuasion with facts, not believes anymore. So, I keep on posting at the bottom if I see the need, otherwise, just as everyday email between co-workers, family and friends. Frans. On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 15:41 +0100, ne... wrote:
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 14:36, Chuck Payne
wrote: I understand that it's the group policies, but at time when I am on my blackberry, I can't help top post. You do realize that you have the option of not posting right? I think instead of making excuses about what you post from, we all follow the netiquette for this list.
ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Jonathan Swift - "May you live every day of your life." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jonathan_swift.html
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On 25 September 09, Frans de Boer wrote:
So harsh tones here from blah, blah, blah
I was right! This is a big herd today! I'm plonking idiots right and left! 7 years with only one moron being plonked by me and now suddenly a massive herd of idiots shows up. Is their food source drying up because of GW and they're migrating to find better pastures? The water source has dried up? Maybe NatGeo will look into it. Damn, too bad these morons aren't wild game and edible...I'd have my freezer filled for the winter already! PLONK -- The race card is the last refuge for a liberal scoundrel. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
I often ignore the posts of those who top post. With top posting, a new reader has to read through much text in order to understand what it is all about. With answers in a logical order following quoted parts of the text to which the reply is given, it becomes much easier -- Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
And I tend to ignore emails when all I see on the first page is quoted text. I've already read the quoted text in the previous emails because I use TBird with a threaded reader that shows what each posting is in response to -- so I can follow chains backwards and forwards. That little utility that showed the squigglies is clickable. I can click on any node and see who responded to who no matter where it was. With a computer, there is too much information to wade through, so I use interfaces that help me quickly focus on what's important. In that regard, I see bottom posting as a symptom of an unproductive, tedious and can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees type of person. They can't skim the ideas and get the gestalt -- they need 50 pages of context to have a clue. Well *sometimes* I do to. But I *start* with the top info first, then drill down as I need more background. Why should I read any background or quoted material if what the person has to say is unimportant or inane. If what they say strikes me as important, and I need context, I can generate it on demand. But I want to know what the person says, first, usually. All that said. As others have stated before, there are times for one style over the other. If one cuts down what is quoted to take little visual space, then it's not a problem, as a person's message is still present on the screen. Maybe what's really being complained about here is inappropriate quoting of entire emails ... in which case our views aren't so far apart -- but there are so many new people coming onto the net -- far better to lead by example than spread so much negativity by complaining about people's posting style -- it stirs up negativity in me and I feel a need to retort back -- not on every posting, but I see it so often it sickens me -- and I occasionally boil over... It's just ridiculous. As for using long logs as references -- google is your friend. It takes you to the references you need so you don't have to read through long paged emails. Besides, this isn't the "opensuse-internals-developers", it's the user's lists for mutual aid and support as well as, hopefully, aid from those on the project. If an email is of reference quality -- put it on a wiki. One of my emails ended up on a suse wiki a few years back because I took the time to answer a question rather than wasting everyone's time complaining. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
Linda Walsh wrote:
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
I often ignore the posts of those who top post.
With top posting, a new reader has to read through much text in order to understand what it is all about.
With answers in a logical order following quoted parts of the text to which the reply is given, it becomes much easier.
I agree......I very seldom will take the time to read anything that is top posted, as I consider the poster as inconsiderate. Fred -- A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA! 'Time to put Nana Pelosi in a home!' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
How much longer is this thread going to go on - I may have to invoke a filter to kill this thread. Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 28 September 2009 07:36:08 pm Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
How much longer is this thread going to go on - I may have to invoke a filter to kill this thread.
it's been cooling down quite bit already. now we, you & i, are doing our part to keep it alive... -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I do agree with you, Linda, and it is only in technical discussions I have seen - sofare - this silly rule of bottom posting. Sometimes I just lose interest in an otherwise interesting discussion, just because of the pages of over and over digested responses. They cal it an netiquette, I call it outdated behavior and a washed of time and resources. Frans. On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 06:05 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content.
Learn the essentials of writing. The important stuff goes first. Email is not a journal nor a "story", it's a discussion, where I put my answer first, and you put yours first in response. I don't need to reread what I just wrote to you, nor what I just read in the previous email.
It's also hard on people who have RSI -- or at least it is for me, as it requires moving over to the scroll bar to scroll down -- or to do "something" to get to the real content.
This archaic nonsense by militant hardliners has got to go. It doesn't make sense in any professional setting nor personal setting. It only makes sense if one is trying to build a story -- or a record that can be read from start to finish -- but that's not what email is about. It's about communication -- it wasn't designed to be a "log book".
If you want logging, look at the previous emails. With any any half-way decent mail reader, threads are indented and with a neat addon (threadvis,threadvis.mozdev.org), you can see my point: conversations are not linear -- making the whole point of attempting 'journal' ordering pointless and misleading.
I attached the image of this discussion -- it's spaghetti! Your post is the one farthest to the right. There were two other posts in between the post you responded to and you. You really should try out T-Bird. Works just fine on linux.
BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda
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Frans de Boer wrote:
I do agree with you, Linda, and it is only in technical discussions I have seen - sofare - this silly rule of bottom posting. Sometimes I just lose interest in an otherwise interesting discussion, just because of the pages of over and over digested responses. They cal it an netiquette, I call it outdated behavior and a washed of time and resources.
For example, how am I supposed to understand what you say when there is no context? As a newcomer to the discussion, I would have to wade through the text below in order to understand anything at all. It seems that those who insist on top posting ar incapable of understanding that there are others reading the messages beside themselves, or that they are not interested in making it easier for newcomers to a discussion to discover what it is about. Top posting indicates absent-mindedness and lack of concern for others. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 06:05 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content.
Learn the essentials of writing. The important stuff goes first. Email is not a journal nor a "story", it's a discussion, where I put my answer first, and you put yours first in response. I don't need to reread what I just wrote to you, nor what I just read in the previous email.
It's also hard on people who have RSI -- or at least it is for me, as it requires moving over to the scroll bar to scroll down -- or to do "something" to get to the real content.
This archaic nonsense by militant hardliners has got to go. It doesn't make sense in any professional setting nor personal setting. It only makes sense if one is trying to build a story -- or a record that can be read from start to finish -- but that's not what email is about. It's about communication -- it wasn't designed to be a "log book".
If you want logging, look at the previous emails. With any any half-way decent mail reader, threads are indented and with a neat addon (threadvis,threadvis.mozdev.org), you can see my point: conversations are not linear -- making the whole point of attempting 'journal' ordering pointless and misleading.
I attached the image of this discussion -- it's spaghetti! Your post is the one farthest to the right. There were two other posts in between the post you responded to and you. You really should try out T-Bird. Works just fine on linux.
BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda
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Per, I agree that when you drop into a discussion halfway, you miss the context. However, where you there from the start, that rule does not apply anymore. Anybody joining a discussion halfway - be it verbal or otherwise - needs to exert a little more effort to catch up. Or just stay out of it. Frans. On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 16:10 +0200, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
Frans de Boer wrote:
I do agree with you, Linda, and it is only in technical discussions I have seen - sofare - this silly rule of bottom posting. Sometimes I just lose interest in an otherwise interesting discussion, just because of the pages of over and over digested responses. They cal it an netiquette, I call it outdated behavior and a washed of time and resources.
For example, how am I supposed to understand what you say when there is no context? As a newcomer to the discussion, I would have to wade through the text below in order to understand anything at all.
It seems that those who insist on top posting ar incapable of understanding that there are others reading the messages beside themselves, or that they are not interested in making it easier for newcomers to a discussion to discover what it is about.
Top posting indicates absent-mindedness and lack of concern for others.
Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 06:05 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content.
Learn the essentials of writing. The important stuff goes first. Email is not a journal nor a "story", it's a discussion, where I put my answer first, and you put yours first in response. I don't need to reread what I just wrote to you, nor what I just read in the previous email.
It's also hard on people who have RSI -- or at least it is for me, as it requires moving over to the scroll bar to scroll down -- or to do "something" to get to the real content.
This archaic nonsense by militant hardliners has got to go. It doesn't make sense in any professional setting nor personal setting. It only makes sense if one is trying to build a story -- or a record that can be read from start to finish -- but that's not what email is about. It's about communication -- it wasn't designed to be a "log book".
If you want logging, look at the previous emails. With any any half-way decent mail reader, threads are indented and with a neat addon (threadvis,threadvis.mozdev.org), you can see my point: conversations are not linear -- making the whole point of attempting 'journal' ordering pointless and misleading.
I attached the image of this discussion -- it's spaghetti! Your post is the one farthest to the right. There were two other posts in between the post you responded to and you. You really should try out T-Bird. Works just fine on linux.
BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda
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On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:55:36 Frans de Boer wrote:
Per, I agree that when you drop into a discussion halfway, you miss the context. However, where you there from the start, that rule does not apply anymore. Anybody joining a discussion halfway - be it verbal or otherwise - needs to exert a little more effort to catch up. Or just stay out of it.
Frans.
A. Because it messes up the flow of the conversation (and gives a reply without context). Q. Why is top posting wrong? :-) -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Linda Walsh wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
--- Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
[...]
This archaic nonsense by militant hardliners has got to go. Your reasoning is broken in about eleventy-seven places. But, hey no problem, feel free to ignore the requests of those here who actually have answers to your questions, and in turn be ignored by them. Turning that around, if you propose to say "Fine I'll ignore you and other bottom posters too." Well, the problem there, for you, not for me, is, I probably don't have a single question that you could answer. Actually I have very few questions at all. I can read documentation and I can mine existing works for examples and I can perform experiments and tests and I can even read code. I find that a lot faster and more reliable than asking strangers of unknown skill and insight what to do. I'm mostly here to keep an ear out for common problems to see if certain issues that occasionally come up are just me or my hardware or are a lot of others hitting the same issue, and to provide that same feedback to others, just general discussion, and to answer the occasional question if it's possible and practical and happens to fall within an area where I have particular insight.
Learn the essentials of writing? How about learn the essentials of life? If you want help, and the general consensus among the knowledgeable people you need help from was that you must post in html with pink text on black background, you shut up and do it. Simple as that. I hate top-posting and think it's the most stupid broken practice ever. But several hardware vendors and rack space / colocation hosting facilities and isp's and software vendors support ticket systems require that you top-post when you reply to their emails, because their piece of crap ticketing system parses emails based on that assumption and will ignore your email if it doesn't see any new content above some magic string embedded in the old content. Guess what I do when I have to interact with those people? A) tell them they're stupid and should change B) top-post Theres only 2 choices but I'll give you 3 guesses anyways. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Brian K. White wrote:Rodney Baker wrote: Patrick Shanahan wrote: ...
(lots of marginally relevant stuff) ...
Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating? See? John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John E. Perry schreef:
Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating?
See?
Errrm... no. -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Jos van Kan wrote:
John E. Perry schreef:
Why might bottom-posting be self-defeating?
See?
Errrm... no.
OK, how about some illustration so even you can understand it -- a very brief glance at the archives shows these, which are not even among the worst offenses that I can recall: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00163.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00221.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00267.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00549.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2009-09/msg00574.html All these messages contain dozens to hundreds of quoted lines, of which only a few are at all relevant; any editing has been done by previous, better behaved posters. Sometimes what you finally find at the end is worth reading; frequently not. I generally just dump a message that doesn't have a reply in the first dozen or so lines, unless I'm anxious for real help or information from the thread. Granted, opensuse's members are generally better behaved than many lists', but we have plenty of offenders here, too. It's really bad when you get a digest of a particularly poorly behaved list like gumstix-users. There are frequently thousands of lines in such a digest, almost all mindless quoting of something that has already been quoted several times in the current digest. But there are plenty of misbehavers here, too. And before you get started on me, I _do_ observe the list etiquette, even though I recognize the validity of Ms. Walsh's argument. I also recognize the validity of and bow to the community's desires. What do I, personally, like to see? In order: --inline posting, properly edited --bottom posting, properly edited <- this message, and Jos's --top posting --inline posting, sloppily edited. --inline posting, unedited. --bottom posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, unedited Sometimes variations are appropriate among the first three. I find it hard to imagine a justification for any of the last four, but there are lots of them here. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John E. Perry wrote:
What do I, personally, like to see? In order:
--inline posting, properly edited --bottom posting, properly edited <- this message, and Jos's --top posting --inline posting, sloppily edited. --inline posting, unedited. --bottom posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, unedited
Nobody wants to read the last four. I would suggest that the last five create impediments to communication. Top posting is totally idiotic for anyone new to a discussion. Top posting seems to indicate that the author does not care at all about new readers, or mindlessly assumes that everyone is familiar with all the details of the theme being discussed. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:
... Top posting is totally idiotic for anyone new to a discussion.
Top posting seems to indicate that the author does not care at all about new readers, or mindlessly assumes that everyone is familiar with all the details of the theme being discussed. ...
Or that anyone coming in halfway through a discussion will have to read the rest, anyway, so why burden active participants with a lot of text they've already read several times? Let new participants or those who need reminding scroll down and get the information. jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
"John E. Perry"
Or that anyone coming in halfway through a discussion will have to read the rest, anyway, so why burden active participants with a lot of text they've already read several times?
One is not suppose to quoted the whole thing, but trim the quotes to provide enough context: http://catb.org/jargon/html/email-style.html Charles -- "The IETF motto is 'rough consensus and running code'" -- Scott Bradner (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates)
In <4ABDC0F3.6010904@cox.net>, John E. Perry wrote:
What do I, personally, like to see? In order: --inline posting, properly edited --bottom posting, properly edited <- this message, and Jos's --top posting --inline posting, sloppily edited. --inline posting, unedited. --bottom posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, unedited
My preferences are different: --inline posting, properly edited --inline posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, properly edited --bottom posting, sloppily edited --top posting --inline posting, unedited --bottom posting, unedited The editing / trimming is the most important thing. If you take the time to do that, placing your text under its context is trivial. If you are going to waste everyone's bandwidth with a full-quote, at least don't waste my time having to scroll past it to see "Me, too!" -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
On Saturday 26 September 2009 10:34:22 am Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
In <4ABDC0F3.6010904@cox.net>, John E. Perry wrote:
What do I, personally, like to see? In order: --inline posting, properly edited --bottom posting, properly edited <- this message, and Jos's --top posting --inline posting, sloppily edited. --inline posting, unedited. --bottom posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, unedited
My preferences are different: --inline posting, properly edited --inline posting, sloppily edited --bottom posting, properly edited --bottom posting, sloppily edited --top posting --inline posting, unedited --bottom posting, unedited
The editing / trimming is the most important thing. If you take the time to do that, placing your text under its context is trivial.
If you are going to waste everyone's bandwidth with a full-quote, at least don't waste my time having to scroll past it to see "Me, too!"
"Me too!" <grin> However, your list is spot on IMO UNedited replies (like this one) Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
The editing / trimming is the most important thing. If you take the time to do that, placing your text under its context is trivial.
If you are going to waste everyone's bandwidth with a full-quote, at least don't waste my time having to scroll past it to see "Me, too!"
Which is precisely why I rate top-posting above poor or no editing jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Brian K. White
I hate top-posting and think it's the most stupid broken practice ever.
<more snip> more than anything else (certainly more than someone following or not following the conventions of a list or other community) it is persons holding every imaginable opinion with such fervor and "true belief" that causes the vast majority of problems: here on the list, by spewing vitriol and anger and wasting our time with fighting about non-sense that is held to religiously and in the larger society, as well .... this line would have made laugh out loud -- had it not also made me want to cry ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Peter Van Lone wrote:
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Brian K. White
wrote: <snip> I hate top-posting and think it's the most stupid broken practice ever.
<more snip>
more than anything else (certainly more than someone following or not following the conventions of a list or other community) it is persons holding every imaginable opinion with such fervor and "true belief" that causes the vast majority of problems:
here on the list, by spewing vitriol and anger and wasting our time with fighting about non-sense that is held to religiously
and in the larger society, as well ....
this line would have made laugh out loud -- had it not also made me want to cry ...
It sounds like you missed the point of that line. Which was not the line itself but the NEXT couple of lines, wherein I said that I top-post when the environment demands it, regardless of my personal views. Lets clarify that even more for the simple, _I_ was saying exactly the same thing that you just said, which is that my personal view doesn't really matter in that context and so it would be stupid to press it in that context, and so I don't. Maybe learn to read before attempting to comment on what you read? It's kind of unflattering to yourself say you disagree with something and then go on to say exactly the same thing. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Brian K. White
Maybe learn to read before attempting to comment on what you read? It's kind of unflattering to yourself say you disagree with something and then go on to say exactly the same thing.
<snip> Listen -- this non-sense has gone on long enough. I know perfectly well how to read (in fact I am quite professionally accomplished at it), and my comment was directed specifically to the statement of yours that I quoted. Your posts are rife with them. You appear to be of the "true believer" mentality generally, and I find this approach to discourse less than productive. I am done with this and really don't care what you have to say -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Here is a good solution to this quandary... <snip>
Bla bla bla, some silly stuff about why it's right or wrong to top or bottom post...
A rebuttal or two...or fifty...some attempting to be helpful, others simply being snooty/haughty...neverless the sum of the two parts being as unhelpful as the parts individually...
<snip> Here is a good solution to this quandary... CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution, or disclosure by or to others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
+1: On Friday 25 September 2009 10:57:41 pm Peter Van Lone wrote:
here on the list, by spewing vitriol and anger and wasting our time with fighting about non-sense that is held to religiously
and in the larger society, as well ....
this line would have made laugh out loud -- had it not also made me want to cry ...
can't we get back to business now, leaving everybody to post which ever way they like, and everybody else to read, reply to, or not, as they like? the religious positions have been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette if i'm in somebody else's house, i'll try to put up with their customs. if somebody comes to my house and doesn't, i'll tolerate that as long as (s)he doesn't do major harm. there may be some benefit in discussing mailing list behavior, but i thought this list was about using openSUSE, not mailing lists in general. -- ys phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
phanisvara das wrote:
the religious positions have been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette
Sorry, I'm from a place where freedom from religion was guaranteed by a constitution. Maybe that's why I take exception toward those attempting to impose one upon others (be it me or someone else). Chastising any or everyone in public about they are not following the "ancient rules" [sic] that are for the benefit of the "old timers"[sic], simply makes them an ass. Even creating self-serving, public wiki with comments about a desire for 'bottoms' smacks of poorly concealed attempts to dominate others to adhere to an ancient and *outdated* practice that, "AS A RULE", is inane. Style is style -- and rules designed for 'ancient' hardware need to be re-examined in the light of new paradigms or there will never be any progress on this planet. I'm an old, or _older_, of an 'old timer', vis-a-vis time on the internet or dealing with electronic, graphical or tty-based group discussions than any of those who claim that title and as one of the eldest elders (I was on the 'net' years before there was an 'internet) going back to uunet days. I was on cdc/ui-net instead of arpanet before that. If those claiming they are elder to me, that would place them on arpanet -- a military research project. Definitely, standards of the military, are not the ones I wish to live by today. The internet is changing -- and standards that made sense in ancient days when people were connected by 110-300 baud modems/ttys don't make sense when one has or uses high level graphical interfaces that can completely change the the _conceptual_ nature of the medium. There's a word for those who can't evolve -- extinct. Perhaps that is why they complain, with greatest NEED, against those moving forward. Those who can adapt will thrive and prosper -- those who can't will be left behind. That's why I constantly re-evaluate old 'wisdom' or 'customs' -- are the best serving the interests of people today or are they adhered-to, and enforced, out of a fear-of-change by a vocal and well-entrenched minority? I see the latter has holding back progress -- something we need to constantly engage in to grow both personally and as a species. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
the religious positions have been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette
I'm from a place where freedom [] was guaranteed by a constitution. Maybe that's why I take exception toward those attempting to impose one upon others (be it me or someone else). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You are free to start a new list where top posting is the norm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2009-09-25 at 14:15 -0700, James D. Parra wrote:
the religious positions have been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette
I'm from a place where freedom [] was guaranteed by a constitution. Maybe that's why I take exception toward those attempting to impose one upon others (be it me or someone else). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are free to start a new list where top posting is the norm.
Not to mention that She is also free to actually read that clause and understand it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette
And their position trumps all others.
I'm from a place where freedom [] was guaranteed by a constitution.
Which is absurdly irrelevent. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
been made clear; the position of the list organizers has been made clear long ago: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette
And their position trumps all others.[sic]
I'm from a place where freedom was guaranteed by a constitution.
Which is absurdly irrelevent.
It's not irrelevant -- it means it's a principle I've been inculcated with. As such, when someone tries to religiously enforce their principles on me due to their unwillingness to use good tools to read email, then it's their personal choice which is completely something they choose -- not something they can expect me to adhere to. You need to understand how people's values are formed and how this affect their future behavior and values. Being brought up with freedom from (or of) religion means you don't tolerate other people pushing their religious views on you. How is that irrelevant? This is ***OpenSuse***...Not, someone's privately list. You are talking about rules in an Open society -- which, by definition, are not something that can be established by fiat. Open also means 'inclusive' -- allowing people of different sensibilities contribute. If you limit the list to bottoms, then you get a certain type of mentality that will go into creating Suse -- which is no longer 'Open'. Complaints are widely spread about poor **user* interface design. Reason? The design lists are run by bottom posters -- as someone else put it, those who are "tech experts" and 'old-timers". They are **least** suited to know how to design easy to use interfaces. They may design interfaces that allow great power and flexibility, but easy-of-use, or attractive design? Forget it -- as a rule, such types are generally less concerned, less knowledgable and have little 'innate' sense about what would make for good user design. Case in point is on emails. They use the logic of wanting a log. Users WON'T read through alot of text to get to what they need to do -- nor will they have the patience to pour through lots of tedious configurations or options just to try something. You put the booring stuff first and you are guaranteed to lose new users or novices. That's a STRONG reason why user's should never be chastised for posting style (clipping comments down to a relevant size, I believe is still fair game, but top/bottom? That can easily be tied to and artistic sense of what looks right vs. a 'logical order' mentality. There needs to be a balance and both views need representation, or OpenSuSE won't be the best product it can be...it will steer toward 'techies', *only*...to be the best there is, you need good support for both types of users. The idea people who just want to do it or see the message or functionality up front (get to the point), and those who want to set 200 options to control every aspect of how a tool works. One SHOULD not negate the other -- but both sides are needed. Instead of a wiki talking about bottom posting -- that part should be deleted -- and people's top posting (or not) will give you an idea of what type and what level of user they are. That's useful information. Don't squander it. Same goes for HTML -- if they take the time to write something in HTML -- and it looks nice -- maybe you should listen to them for aesthetic ideas... flash graphics should stay off limits -- but pictures showing relevant design content or problems seem entirely appropriate. For those posting in HTML, they should be encouraged, privately, to also supply/send the message in plain-text as well as HTML. You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. A decided difference, wouldn't you say? -linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Linda Walsh
You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. A decided difference, wouldn't you say?
It appears that someone is forcing you to be here? Why are your text lines sooooo long? -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. A decided difference, wouldn't you say?
-linda
Except that frequently people on this list use pine or mutt. They don't parse html very well. So why would you inflict such pain of trying to read HTML tags when they shouldn't have to? Do we really need pretty little font and pictures that we need to allow HTML in messages? Not including any HTML insecurities? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Isn't pine and mutt from the - early - days of UNIX - then - why in the hell would you want to stay in the - Stone Age. I REFUSED TO EVER TOUCH pine OT mutt - YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO BACK TO - DOS. Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
Isn't pine and mutt from the - early - days of UNIX - then - why in the hell would you want to stay in the - Stone Age.
I REFUSED TO EVER TOUCH pine OT mutt - YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO BACK TO - DOS.
Duaine
Because not every linux install uses a gui. Lots of server setups run at init 3 or don't even have a gui installed. Pine and Mutt are used heavily still. They're quick, they don't use much resources, and they get the job done. Just because YOU refused to touch pine or mutt doesn't mean I or others don't use it. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
Isn't pine and mutt from the - early - days of UNIX - then - why in the hell would you want to stay in the - Stone Age.
I REFUSED TO EVER TOUCH pine OT mutt - YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO BACK TO - DOS.
Duaine
Because not every linux install uses a gui. Lots of server setups run at init 3 or don't even have a gui installed. Pine and Mutt are used heavily still. They're quick, they don't use much resources, and they get the job done. Just because YOU refused to touch pine or mutt doesn't mean I or others don't use it.
It sound like to me the problem (posting) has already solved itself. Why should the rest of us be imposed with only one way of posting because of people, that for whatever reason, us the antiquated pine & mutt and won't go gui. Then I suggest you connect that those servers and access the mail via a gui interface. Problem solved !!!!!!!!!!!! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Why should the rest of us be imposed with only one way of posting because of people, that for whatever reason, us the antiquated pine & mutt and won't go gui.
Then I suggest you connect that those servers and access the mail via a gui interface.
Problem solved !!!!!!!!!!!!
If I'm running a server, why should I run an unneeded gui that will just hog up resources that I can dedicate to providing mail or web services or mysql or anything? Just because YOU don't use it does not make antiquated or wrong. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
It sound like to me the problem (posting) has already solved itself.
Why should the rest of us be imposed with only one way of posting because of people, that for whatever reason, us the antiquated pine & mutt and won't go gui.
Then I suggest you connect that those servers and access the mail via a gui interface.
Problem solved !!!!!!!!!!!!
Bingo! That's what I do -- sorta. I run IMAP on my linux server If fetches my email from my ISP so I don't have to wait for things to download. The problems people face here about having to wait for long downloads of graphics or nonsense like that is because of poor management/poor tech skills. Until recently I ran a 10-year old P-III as my linux email, DNS, squid, file and backup server. I ran my best machine as a graphical desktop running windows because I didn't want the headaches dealing with a linux desktop -- I got a bad case of RSI using linux for a desktop for 3 years, so went to windows. It's much more friendly to those with various handicaps. I use *two* mice -- and can switch off so one hand doesn't take the brunt -- though since my right hand got the worst RSI due to pre-dual mouse usage, I favor the left now. Those who choose to live in the stone age are the ones I'm talking about who are preventing progress. They need bottom posting because everything scrolls to the bottom when they bring up a message, by default. You have to explicitly invoke a pager to read it the top part. For me it's just the opposite. I have to page to read the bottom part. I have no problems running X-apps using Cygwin-X to my terminal, though I can edit any of my linux files as though they were local as I have access to all the disks. Even am in my own domain run by Samba. My server doesn't run graphics on it. Even my new server only as an 800x600 capable graphics card in it. So I really wouldn't want to try to read email there. It would be insane. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 September 2009 07:37:11 pm Linda Walsh wrote:
Until recently I ran a 10-year old P-III as my linux email, DNS, squid, file and backup server. I ran my best machine as a graphical desktop running windows because I didn't want the headaches dealing with a linux desktop
can't you go away and preach to somebody else, pretty pretty please? now you're trying to convnce a linux list we should switch to windows desktops to avoid the hassle with linux? i think you'll still find answers here if you're having problems with openSUSE, but your other rants are grossly off-topic, IMO. -- ys phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Sunday 27 September 2009 07:37:11 pm Linda Walsh wrote:
Until recently I ran a 10-year old P-III as my linux email, DNS, squid, file and backup server. I ran my best machine as a graphical desktop running windows because I didn't want the headaches dealing with a linux desktop ......(so on)
hello Linda Walsh, It is good that you expressed your thoughts and feelings towards Linux.But if you are not satisfied with Linux plz dont try to change others opinion.And if you got certain doubts,plz ask ...there are lot many people around who try their best to help you out.thank you for being kind. Warm regards Wwarlock(Shayon) "FOR THE BETTERMENT OP openSUSE" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkq/fYYACgkQkCJ6Vc13T/fG4ACgkRDH81KOnj+gMmNCauAeMNjF kd0AoMn7rSvZq6QA+N/g7/bDRjzYqNiG =xZkX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
phanisvara das wrote:
can't you go away and preach to somebody else, pretty pretty please? now you're trying to convnce a linux list we should switch to windows desktops to avoid the hassle with linux?
I am in no way trying to convince anyone to go windows...if my wrists/RSI problems weren't what they were I doubt I'd be back on windows now. I ran linux as a desktop for 2-3 years before ulnar tunnel and spine problems forced me to windows to at least try the voice options... I found the windows interface bothered my wrists less, so I contend with doing most of my desktop interface stuff on windows and using linux for as supplying most of the resources for the windows machine -- email, DNS Doman master, fast file store, backup server, etc. I've tried to get the NVIDIA on my other computer (same GTX260 on my Win Box), running graphics on my Linux box, but no luck there. I've wanted to try the linux desktop and graphics apps and see how they've progressed and how it performs with the same hardware as my winbox...etc. But try to get others to switch to windows? I usually try to turn them on to suse desktop on the rare times I've had the opportunity. Don't take what I do as trying to convince you to do the same. I'm not trying to tell you how you should do things, I just would prefer not to see harassment going on when someone does something slightly 'different'. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 01:41 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:
I am in no way trying to convince anyone to go windows...if my wrists/RSI problems weren't what they were I doubt I'd be back on windows now. I ran linux as a desktop for 2-3 years before ulnar tunnel and spine problems forced me to windows to at least try the voice options...
You could try a Wacom Bamboo tablet or similar. This uses a pen instead of a mouse and can help. It works best on KDE because KDE uses single clicks all the time. But it works well in Gnome and M$ platforms too. If you use it on M$, you’ll probably need to make the mouse double-click faster. -- JDL -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John D Lamb wrote:
You could try a Wacom Bamboo tablet or similar. This uses a pen instead of a mouse and can help. It works best on KDE because KDE uses single clicks all the time. But it works well in Gnome and M$ platforms too. If you use it on M$, you’ll probably need to make the mouse double-click faster.
I currently use a track back and have one of it's five buttons set to double click, but for launching an icon, I changed that from double to single click years ago (a pref in properties) when looking at a folder). And yes -- Bamboo...just found it last night and ordered one. I have had a regular wacom, but it was too clumsy for regular use -- I use it if I want to do do some photo editing --- but that's usually rare). I hope the bamboo will be more useful...w/multi touch and pen might be just the trick to replace a mouse... If so, might get duals for it as well (I currently have dual track balls that I switch between based on posture and tiredness...) Thanks for the excellent suggestion! :-) -linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I've tried to get the NVIDIA on my other computer (same GTX260 on my Win Box), running graphics on my Linux box, but no luck there.
Hmmm interesting... I wonder what went wrong? I have that same nVidia card in my system, and it works perfect using the nVidia proprietary drivers. I get excellent performance out of it... even to the point that I get higher framerates in games playing in Cedega/Wine than I do in native Windows (admittedly that is likely more to do with artificial fps limits in Windows which are not there in Linux). Getting the GTX260 working in Linux was easy... two ways to do it... manually by dropping to CLI, switching to run level 3 and running the downloaded installer (accepting all defaults)... or by installing the driver from the repos. Both methods have "just worked" on all nVidia installs I've ever done. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Linda Walsh pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Those who choose to live in the stone age are the ones I'm talking about who are preventing progress. They need bottom posting because everything scrolls to the bottom when they bring up a message, by default. You have to explicitly invoke a pager to read it the top part. For me it's just the opposite. I have to page to read the bottom part.
All I can say is WA WA WA. Every year this subject comes and then goes away because the cry babies finally realize that they can't get the desired changes implemented. This is a _mailing_ list if you want to communicate a different way go to the forums. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ken Schneider - openSUSE
Every year this subject comes and then goes away because the cry babies finally realize that they can't get the desired changes implemented. This is a _mailing_ list if you want to communicate a different way go to the forums.
We should just stop feeding the trolls and let them go back to under their bridges. Charlres -- "It's God. No, not Richard Stallman, or Linus Torvalds, but God." (By Matt Welsh)
On Sunday 27 September 2009 09:07:11 am Linda Walsh wrote:
Those who choose to live in the stone age are the ones I'm talking about who are preventing progress. They need bottom posting because everything scrolls to the bottom when they bring up a message, by default. You have to explicitly invoke a pager to read it the top part. For me it's just the opposite. I have to page to read the bottom part.
Just my .02, I've used gui mailers since David Harris released his first gui of pegasus mail (~ 1990) but I'm equally happy if I need to use pine on a remote host, etc. A mail server just holds the ASCII, how you get to it and how you view it is up to you. There is a good argument to be made for continuing listserve mail in a text-only format. (I have seen the horrors allowing html on mailing lists bring) In addition to the Linux lists, I also have a few legal lists I am a member of. One is the TTLA (texas trial lawyers assn.) list that is server by the "lyris" list service. Volume runs ~500 posts per day. 3-4 years ago the ttla list started to allow html on the list and message size increased 4-fold to ~20k per post compared to the 4-6k in text -- and -- the MS word document attachments add 100 - 200K. Does it make a difference? Yes it does. Where you have broadband, then it isn't an issue from a download time standpoint, but where you are limited to dial-up -- It makes a HUGE difference. While allowing a "little" html may not seem all that bad at first, once the camel gets his nose under the tent .... Notwithstanding the size/download time issue, the next issue that emerges is how do you police it and who polices it? Yes any computer can parse messages, count tags, and reject based on some arbitrary limit, and rules can be set on what html can be added, etc.., but regardless it still becomes an additional layer of crap for someone to deal with. Given the number of issues involved in allowing a "little" html, I just don't see the benefit in it. On the bottom posting issue, I used to think it was just a pain. It was easier for me to just hit reply. But over the years I have learned to value reading information in a thread in the context it was meant to be read rather than having to scroll down and then back up to get the exact context. Over the years the mailer developers have added the capability to just about every mail package I can think of the "place the replay After the original message" which eliminates any "extra work" argument. For messages that can be completely read without the need to scroll to see the rest -- who cares. I've never been one of the reply: "Please Don't Top Post" guys, it just doesn't matter that much to me, but I can say that it's a whole lot easier to read a long message when the reply is either interlineated following each paragraph or bottom posted at the end of the message. Regardless of which side you come down on, I think reality probably dictates that there is just too much historical inertia standing in the way of changing either the text-only format or bottom-posting recommendation... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
It would appear that on Sep 27, Linda Walsh did say:
Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
Why should the rest of us be imposed with only one way of posting because of people, that for whatever reason, us the antiquated pine & mutt and won't go gui. Then I suggest you connect that those servers and access the mail via a gui interface. Problem solved !!!!!!!!!!!!
Bingo! That's what I do -- sorta. I run IMAP on my linux server If fetches my email from my ISP so I don't have to wait for things to download.
The problems people face here about having to wait for long downloads of graphics or nonsense like that is because of poor management/poor tech skills.
That's only one of many reasons to go with a text only format. And admittedly one that can be bypassed by someone such as yourself who *HAS* the management & tech skills to run their own server...
Until recently I ran a 10-year old P-III as my linux email, DNS, squid, file and backup server. I ran my best machine as a graphical desktop running windows because I didn't want the headaches dealing with a linux desktop -- I got a bad case of RSI using linux for a desktop for 3 years, so went to windows. It's much more friendly to those with various handicaps. I use *two* mice -- and can switch off so one hand doesn't take the brunt -- though since my right hand got the worst RSI due to pre-dual mouse usage, I favor the left now.
That is a good reason to avoid the point n click style graphic email software. alpine CAN process mouse clicks on links etc. But it never requires the mouse and is configured to be run efficiently with a few easy key strokes that I for one find much easier on my wrists than using *ANY* pointing device...
Those who choose to live in the stone age are the ones I'm talking about who are preventing progress. They need bottom posting because everything scrolls to the bottom when they bring up a message, by default. You have to explicitly invoke a pager to read it the top part. For me it's just the opposite. I have to page to read the bottom part.
I can't agree that it's because of their choice to use cli based software. Incidentally, As far as top/bottom posting goes, I'd agree with you in general. But it's a long ago lost battle. And the netiquette for THIS list recommends against top posting. Though it seams the interleaved posting such as this one generally acceptable to both camps...
My server doesn't run graphics on it. Even my new server only as an 800x600 capable graphics card in it. So I really wouldn't want to try to read email there. It would be insane.
Well I wouldn't recommend doing your email directly from the server either.
Though in my case it has less to do with the graphics card.
Actually I choose alpine specifically because it doesn't clutter my email up
with distracting graphic animations. (I don't really know why it is that if
anything is moving near the text I'm trying to read, I get a migraine...)
I do like running alpine from a gui that can start a browser such as
firefox or opera in case there is a link that I choose to manually select.
I *_LIKE_* the fact that alpine *_never_* automatically launches anything to
opens a link or graphic etc, unless I tell it to.
So while I'm insulted that you automatically think bad things about me just
because I choose to use cli text based software such as alpine, instead of
allowing other people to force point n click methods on me, I do none the
less, wish top posting had won. To me it's about the only good thing that
ever came out of the MS way of doing things. But in tech newsgroups where
many of the people who offer most of the best help say "please don't..."
Well then I try not to.
I'll close with wishing you a nice day, even if you prefer the MS
environment.
--
| --- ___
| <0> <-> Joe (theWordy) Philbrook
| ^ J(tWdy)P
| ~\___/~ <
I use PINE (ALPINE) because it works efficiently. I don't like all the bandwidth wasted on decorations that the newer browsers encourage or HTML tags consume. Single key actions are faster than hand and wrist numbing mouse actions. I can connect to IMAP etc servers when needed, but don't like my mail stored elsewhere depending on a provider and network that sometimes breaks when I need it. I can view attachments or links quickly when needed. Thread sorting is an option. PINE has stayed current in network functionality thanks to its maintainers. Not sure why 'modern' mail clients are needed. Allen ---- Address: Allen Wilkinson (cell) (216) 548-2349 1286 Yellowstone Road (work) (216) 433-2075 Cleveland Heights, OH 44121 USA (INTERNET) aw(at)chaff(dot)biz +++++++ "Pluralism is the belief that all people have reasons for their beliefs. We ought to realize that our own reasoning, like everyone else's, is fallible and unfinished." Author Unknown On Fri, 25 Sep 2009, Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
Isn't pine and mutt from the - early - days of UNIX - then - why in the hell would you want to stay in the - Stone Age.
I REFUSED TO EVER TOUCH pine OT mutt - YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO BACK TO - DOS.
Duaine
-- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years
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On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage
You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. A decided difference, wouldn't you say?
-linda
Except that frequently people on this list use pine or mutt. They don't parse html very well.
Can't they handle the text portion of a multipart mime encoded email? If not, maybe it is time they learned. ie. Several mailers will send html mail in 2 parts. The first part is a plain text version. The second part is the html version. Which I use for simple things like bolding, highlighting, etc. The biggest functional use is tables. If you want a nice looking table, rich text is almost mandatory. The current restriction is a pain. Every now and then I turn on rich formatting in my email client and forget to turn it off. The next time I post here, the email is rejected even though I only type plain text stuff. I don't recall even the lkml lists rejecting multi-part mime encoded emails that have a plain text section. I agree with Linda it is time to reconsider some of this. Greg (Also a uunet user at some point in the ancient past. 1986?) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-09-26 at 06:41 -0400, Greg Freemyer wrote:
Except that frequently people on this list use pine or mutt. They don't parse html very well.
Can't they handle the text portion of a multipart mime encoded email? If not, maybe it is time they learned.
Of course they can.
The current restriction is a pain. Every now and then I turn on rich formatting in my email client and forget to turn it off. The next time I post here, the email is rejected even though I only type plain text stuff. I don't recall even the lkml lists rejecting multi-part mime encoded emails that have a plain text section.
See *bold*, /italics/, _underscored_, which will show up on some clients as such.
I agree with Linda it is time to reconsider some of this.
Nope. Html adds about three times to the size of messages, which may be sent to thousands of subscribers; and not all of them have broadband nor the posibility of getting it. Yes, in this time and age. If you want features, you have forums... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq+B1cACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VnSwCdGwN8qiDDJd/nx3eRMuf2yWgv 5owAoJImStBhSGXO/36GvgF8LM7cJipH =PrnX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 September 2009 12:41:33 Greg Freemyer wrote:
The biggest functional use is tables. If you want a nice looking table, rich text is almost mandatory.
At this point I usually open up an application that's more suitable than an email client for creating documents that need some kind of formatting.
I agree with Linda it is time to reconsider some of this.
Any personal HTML email I receive, that for any reason passes my spam filters, gets filtered straight to /dev/null. The reason for this is simple. My mail client doesn't display HTML email by default, and quite sensible that policy is too. HTML email wastes my time, and since I get a lot of email, a lot of HTML email wastes a lot of my time. At work, our mail server has long since bounced any HTML messages or multipart messages, that is the one in ten thousand that is not spam ;) If you want me to view something formatted with HTML, publish it to the web and send me a link. There is nothing that you can send in an email, that you might want to format in some fancier way than plain text, that wouldn't be better published in another document format or on the web. And that i.m.o. is the crux of the matter with regard to HTML email. -- “Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes.” ☘ Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 September 2009 06:34:15 pm Graham Anderson wrote:
At this point I usually open up an application that's more suitable than an email client for creating documents that need some kind of formatting.
exactly. mailing lists meant to exchange words. it's a relic from usenet times, but not everything that was useful then has to be thrown overboard because something new has come up. you tend to focus more on what you say when you don't have to worry how it looks (that's how it works for me, at least).
I agree with Linda it is time to reconsider some of this.
yes, by using different mediums that are available now: blogs, audio and video podcasts, to exchange and discuss things that need this type of presentation.
Any personal HTML email I receive, that for any reason passes my spam filters, gets filtered straight to /dev/null.
i'm not going that far, because i communicate with many people who are lost in the glittering world of windows or apple. they don't care enough about technology to make an effort to learn something else. it works for them, and that's all they want to know. the geek part of me wants to dspise them for this, but i value many of these people in many other ways, so i can't do that. (if i had a geek-card i should probably turn it in now...) but this is a linux list, and naturally there's a large percentage of geeks around. moreover, it focuses (should focus) on technical matters, that don't require graphic presentation. (if they do, there's plenty of websites to park examples outside.) there are openSUSE forums at http://forums.opensuse.org/, allowing much more artistic freedom for posters, and thousands of other sites dealing with similar topics. if you can't live without this constitutionally guaranteed freedom, you should go there. it's only fair, though, to grant the maintainers and majorty of members on this list their (our) freedom to have a mailing list, not a multimedia forum. -- ys phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday September 26 2009 1:05:01 pm phanisvara das wrote:
On Saturday 26 September 2009 06:34:15 pm Graham Anderson wrote:
At this point I usually open up an application that's more suitable than an email client for creating documents that need some kind of formatting.
exactly. mailing lists meant to exchange words. it's a relic from usenet times, but not everything that was useful then has to be thrown overboard because something new has come up. you tend to focus more on what you say when you don't have to worry how it looks (that's how it works for me, at least).
I don't know... I think I have a brilliant idea! We can merge Scribus with our mail clients! Imagine the possibilities! HTML is old hat! It might be better than what I get in HTML, anyway. When I get HTML mail that "isn't spam" (I use that phrase loosely), it either just makes the text garishly multicolored and huge or it sprinkles the emails with images of cloyingly cute kittens, underdeveloped, praying angels and laughing elderly people. I think it gives me a fair idea of the level of my friends' sanity at the same time that it chips away at mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 September 2009 10:27:19 am Constantinos Galilei wrote:
I don't know... I think I have a brilliant idea! We can merge Scribus with our mail clients! Imagine the possibilities! HTML is old hat!
why stop at scribus? there's kdenlive, blender and so many other applications that could 'improve' the experience. and why worry about bandwidth or system resources? after all, we've got broadband and quadruple CPUs...let those poor guys in india get a life first...i mean another one; they believe in karma and rebirth anyway... -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 September 2009 10:47:35 am phanisvara das wrote:
after all, we've got broadband and quadruple CPUs
coming to think of it, it's actually un-patriotic not to use all the resources we have. if we don't, why would the industry keep pushing out new machines every 3 months, making the old ones obsolete? and then our american way of life, guaranteed constitution, congress, and industry would be at risk. we have to EXPAND, more and more, so our economy keeps growing. saving resources is for wimps! -- ys phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday September 27 2009 12:26:36 am phanisvara das wrote:
coming to think of it, it's actually un-patriotic not to use all the resources we have. if we don't, why would the industry keep pushing out new machines every 3 months, making the old ones obsolete? and then our american way of life, guaranteed constitution, congress, and industry would be at risk. we have to EXPAND, more and more, so our economy keeps growing. saving resources is for wimps!
Heck yeah! I amend my idea... let's modify the Doom 3 engine as an email display and compose messages the same way you make new levels! It'd be nice to get SOME use out of the money I shelled out for that piece of crap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
phanisvara das wrote:
On Sunday 27 September 2009 10:27:19 am Constantinos Galilei wrote:
I don't know... I think I have a brilliant idea! We can merge Scribus with our mail clients! Imagine the possibilities! HTML is old hat!
why stop at scribus? there's kdenlive, blender and so many other applications that could 'improve' the experience. and why worry about bandwidth or system resources? after all, we've got broadband and quadruple CPUs...let those poor guys in india get a life first...i mean another one; they believe in karma and rebirth anyway...
hell I'm still waiting from the video phone and flying car ;-) -- Hans Krueger hanskrueger007@roadrunner.com registered Linux user 289023 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Graham Anderson wrote:
At work, our mail server has long since bounced any HTML messages or multipart messages, that is the one in ten thousand that is not spam ;)
Sounds like your workplace is pretty primitive. Nearly all the email I get from other companies comes in HTML. My email filtering (spamassassin) doesn't reject email that contains HTML -- it rejects spam. Maybe your company should get a bit wiser and up to date. Over 90% of the email I get from companies is HTML -- that is NOT spam. The spam part, I don't know, I don't keep track of the statistics as I don't usually look at the couple hundred messages that come into my various inboxes that are spam. OF course part of it is that I use different email boxes for each vendor -- usually with their name on it. So if they sell the email to a spammer, I know who leaked or sold the email. ;^) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Linda Walsh wrote:
Graham Anderson wrote:
At work, our mail server has long since bounced any HTML messages or multipart messages, that is the one in ten thousand that is not spam ;)
---
Sounds like your workplace is pretty primitive.
Why is it primitive? Because it wants to prevent any security problems that comes from html emails? You'll find a lot of companies that send correspondence and not ads don't use and it's a policy not to use html in email. Where I work we absolutely do not use html in our e-mails at all. And our IT department far from primitive. We just did a complete overhaul of the IT dep't in my location.
Nearly all the email I get from other companies comes in HTML.
As a sales ad or from correspondence with an employee from that company?
OF course part of it is that I use different email boxes for each vendor -- usually with their name on it. So if they sell the email to a spammer, I know who leaked or sold the email. ;^)
How do you know who leaked it? Does the new email say "we bought your email from xyz company?" -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-09-27 at 14:12 -0400, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
Nearly all the email I get from other companies comes in HTML.
As a sales ad or from correspondence with an employee from that company?
Invoices. All the invoices I get from utilities are in html email. No way I can change that, and if I don't pay they might cut the electricity. There places for html and places free of it. These mail lists should remain free. Business communication can use what /they/ like, specially if they pay. Some of them even if they get paid. Same as here: there are rules. Here the rule is "no html". For some companies the rule is "we send html". Simply respect every rule...
OF course part of it is that I use different email boxes for each vendor -- usually with their name on it. So if they sell the email to a spammer, I know who leaked or sold the email. ;^)
How do you know who leaked it? Does the new email say "we bought your email from xyz company?"
Yes, it does. It is a different address for each correspondent, so seeing the address, you know. Like: mine.001@somewhere mine.002@somewhere mine.003@somewhere mine.004@somewhere If you see spam going to mine.003@somewhere, you know that the person you gave your address "mine.003@somewhere" leaked it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq/zUEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VfJACfU2Wr20xUFiHd1VjLg74nRc89 NQsAniPCer4gS4LoYuBg5lF/GC4ax6pv =4Q8/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 September 2009 21:38:14 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-09-27 at 14:12 -0400, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
How do you know who leaked it? Does the new email say "we bought your email from xyz company?"
Yes, it does. It is a different address for each correspondent, so seeing the address, you know.
Like:
mine.001@somewhere mine.002@somewhere mine.003@somewhere mine.004@somewhere
That's much to easy a system to compromise. My old system was to create the name by using the ROT13 of the domain. My new one is much harder to crack, namely because each address given out is created from the md5sum of the domain it's given to and the date it's created. Sure, the mailbox name 32 characters long and needs to be looked up to identify the original source, but it's going to be a pretty small chance that someone would be able to guess the correct 32 character combination. Given that there's 2^36 possible combinations, 32 times 16 possible characters, getting one that's assigned is going to be pretty unlikely.
If you see spam going to mine.003@somewhere, you know that the person you gave your address "mine.003@somewhere" leaked it.
That gives you a good idea that the person/company/whatever leaked the address. It can't prove it because those pesky little spammers like to make up addresses. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: www.distributed.net OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s openSUSE 10.3 32b | openSUSE 11.0 32b | | openSUSE 10.3 64b | openSUSE 11.0 64b | openSUSE 11.1 64b | openSUSE 11.2m6 RISC OS 3.6 | RISC OS 3.11 | openSUSE 11.1 PPC | TOS 4.02 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-- snip --
OF course part of it is that I use different email boxes for each vendor -- usually with their name on it. So if they sell the email to a spammer, I know who leaked or sold the email. ;^)
How do you know who leaked it? Does the new email say "we bought your email from xyz company?"
-- requote --
I use different email boxes for each vendor usually with their name on it.
Of course, with HTML formatting, I could just snip the crap, and bold (or otherwise emphasise) the relevant material. That way you'd see your question was already answered in the material you replied to, and I'd not have to piffel on as I have in order to point it out to you.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
That way you'd see your question was already answered in the material you replied to, and I'd not have to piffel on as I have in order to point it out to you..
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Why can you not snip quoted material and *bold* things with out html? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Why can you not snip quoted material and *bold* things with out html?
Pure opinion, but stars around something doesn't stand out the same as something genuinely bold, doubly so if it is part of material already being quoted that is having the emphasis added (as in my example it would have). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
In <87f94c370909260341l703ced44m9a582f8d96fa0fab@mail.gmail.com>, Greg Freemyer wrote:
The biggest functional use is tables. If you want a nice looking table, rich text is almost mandatory.
Heathen! Learn the art of ASCII, lest ye be judged unworthy. ;) Fixed-width fonts make great tables. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
On 26 September 09, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage
wrote: You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. �A decided difference, wouldn't you say?
-linda
Except that frequently people on this list use pine or mutt. They don't parse html very well.
Can't they handle the text portion of a multipart mime encoded email? If not, maybe it is time they learned.
HTML e-mail is for 'tards and others who are easily amused by bright, shiny things...sorta like the old way of catching a monkey - put a bright shiny thing in a hole that the hand can fit into... monkey puts hand in hole to grab bright, shiny thing... monkey not smart enough to let go of bright shiny thing because 'fist' too big to remove from hole, so can't pull hand back out. It's a waste of space and time. -- If guns kill people then... - Pencils mispell words. - Cars make people drive drunk. - Spoons make people overeat. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
JB2 wrote:
On 26 September 09, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage
wrote: You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. �A decided difference, wouldn't you say?
-linda
Except that frequently people on this list use pine or mutt. They don't parse html very well.
Can't they handle the text portion of a multipart mime encoded email? If not, maybe it is time they learned.
HTML e-mail is for 'tards and others who are easily amused by bright, shiny things...sorta like the old way of catching a monkey - put a bright shiny thing in a hole that the hand can fit into... monkey puts hand in hole to grab bright, shiny thing... monkey not smart enough to let go of bright shiny thing because 'fist' too big to remove from hole, so can't pull hand back out.
It's a waste of space and time.
Not necessarily. My software needs to send various emails to the customers of my customers, and some of them need to be formatted into tables or columns. These are ultra end-users I have no connection with, customers of my customers. I can't tell them "you should be using a fixed-width font in your email client". Most of them don't even know what "client" means in this context, nor should they have to. My solution is I take a plain text report that formats correctly in a fixed width font, and add about 37 BYTES of html tags to the entire file, to tell their email client to use a fixed with font via the html pre tag. <html><body><pre> </pre></body></html> This is in no way offensive even if reading that email on pine or mutt, because the html is in the form of just adding a couple words to the beginning and end of the body and nothing in the middle. This data is not better served as a link to some hosted file. It best served exactly as it is. html and mime formatting are perfectly good tools. They are no more evil than a hammer or a gun or a pen. Abusing them is the only thing that's wrong. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 September 2009 01:33:26 pm Brian K. White wrote:
<html><body><pre> </pre></body></html>
This is in no way offensive even if reading that email on pine or mutt, because the html is in the form of just adding a couple words to the beginning and end of the body and nothing in the middle.
agreed, for this purpose. but since you know this, it shouldn't be difficult for you to not send any html to lists like this which block html content. very few people who use html mail are as conscientious as you are, after all. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Linda Walsh
You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common. It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. A decided difference, wouldn't you say?
It is my experience that people who like to format their email with "pretty" html usually have nothing of value to say. Also, please show me the rfc for html email. Charles -- "...Deep Hack Mode--that mysterious and frightening state of consciousness where Mortal Users fear to tread." (By Matt Welsh)
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Linda Walsh
Complaints are widely spread about poor **user* interface design. Reason? The design lists are run by bottom posters -- as someone else put it, those who are "tech experts" and 'old-timers".
Oh really? Is that the reason? [citation needed]. So if we ENFORCE html on those lists, problem solved? Who knew it could be so ease!!
Instead of a wiki talking about bottom posting -- that part should be deleted -- and people's top posting (or not) will give you an idea of what type and what level of user they are. That's useful information. Don't squander it.
How very disturbing. Never mind the message. Judge it by its package. Really, did you just say that, or did I just imagine it because you posted in plain old text?
Same goes for HTML -- if they take the time to write something in HTML -- and it looks nice -- maybe you should listen to them for aesthetic ideas...
Why should technical ideas be evaluated based on flowery layout and fonts and colors? Plain text for everybody puts everybody on a common playing field. It prevents the bright red 24point screaming, the bold underlined italicized emphasis and parchment backgrounds from becoming the message. It forces people to put at least a modicum of thought into their message, proper description of problem, solutions, and questions. And it makes it clear to people that they should wrap their lines at some reasonable length. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 27 September 2009 01:26:15 am John Andersen wrote:
Plain text for everybody puts everybody on a common playing field.
It prevents the bright red 24point screaming, the bold underlined italicized emphasis and parchment backgrounds from becoming the message.
It forces people to put at least a modicum of thought into their message, proper description of problem, solutions, and questions.
that's clear to anybody except those who refuse to understand.. a mailing list isn't a multimedia forum, and this is a mailing list. if we, meaning those of us who want to keep this a mailing list, which includes the organizers just stopped responding to these silly posts, they would go away. as long as people keep arguing, this thread will never stop. i blocked the original thread, but it's spread into several and i'm getting bored and annoyed. blocking people is unnecessarily harsh and not very effective since email addresses don't cost a thing. why not leave them to rant on alone; believe me, there's nothing anybody can say to change their opinion. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John Andersen wrote:
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Linda Walsh
wrote:
<snip>
Same goes for HTML -- if they take the time to write something in HTML -- and it looks nice -- maybe you should listen to them for aesthetic ideas...
Why should technical ideas be evaluated based on flowery layout and fonts and colors?
How does html help answer a question such as "how do I get sound to work on my blah-blah sound card?" or "I compiled such-and-such and I got this diagnostic message" or "where can I find so-and-so library?" The purpose of the list (I thought) is to help getting SuSE running, not a discussion of web page layout. I cannot imagine a forum with less need for html. The adage "Less is more" applies. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
How about not using flowing text but rather limit line lengths? Even most GUI MUAs I know are able to do so when configured appropriately. * Linda Walsh (suse@tlinx.org) [20090926 03:55]:
If you limit the list to bottoms, then you get a certain type of mentality that will go into creating Suse -- which is no longer 'Open'.
That's spreading plain FUD! And by limiting the list to bottoms you simply try to get people to abide by rules that have been set up and that most people abide to. You won't go and demand that books are printed bottom up, do you?
Users WON'T read through alot of text to get to what they need to do --
It's simply a matter of people trimming their quotes to the necessary parts. If that would be done, there wouldn't be much scrolling.
nor will they have the patience to pour through lots of tedious configurations or options just to try something.
Would just be an argument for delivering MUAs with different default settings :)
That can easily be tied to an artistic sense of what looks right vs. a 'logical order' mentality.
No, it's a commonly agreed way of doing things. If you create a new community you're free to agree on different rules. But this isn't the place where you can simply ignore all rules. For instance most western languages write their lines left to right not top to bottom. For us western folks, Hebrew and arabian books are printed back to front. No it can't. You write lines from left to right not from top to bottom
There needs to be a balance and both views need representation, or OpenSuSE won't be the best product it can be...it will steer toward 'techies',
You mix communication style with technical knowhow. That's like stating that artistic abilities are directly linked to the language you speak which of cause would be nonsense.
*only*...to be the best there is, you need good support for both types of users.
Yes, choose a different media to communicate, be that another mailing list or web fora.
One SHOULD not negate the other -- but both sides are needed.
Yes, but not necessarily in the same medium. If top posting and neglect of editing replies get too much I'll just unsubscribe from this list and I guess I wouldn't be alone.
Same goes for HTML -- if they take the time to write something in HTML -- and it looks nice -- maybe you should listen to them for aesthetic ideas...
NO! HTML adds *nothing* to a discussion other then bloat. Messages are defined by content, not style. Even the best of styles won't help if the content is nonsense. Most people don't choose html because it's their conscious choice but because their MUA uses it by default.
For those posting in HTML, they should be encouraged, privately, to also supply/send the message in plain-text as well as HTML.
Which doubles the needed storage for no benefit what-so-ever.
You go onto microsoft lists, and probably apple lists -- and HTML is far more common.
That's because MS choose to deliver their poor excuse of an MUA configured in a total ignorance of common style and others followed. Outlook can't even be configured to completely comply to that style, leave alone supporting existing RFCs for e-mail.
It's only in the 'ugly duckling' linux, the lists are generally pushed as text-only, and even down to a 'one-format-fits all' approach. A decided difference, wouldn't you say?
I can show you some windows centric mailing lists where a IMO sane style is used. Like I said, if you want a different style of communication, create a different way of communicating like choosing web fora or a different mailing list. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 26 September 2009 02:31:45 am Linda Walsh wrote:
Style is style -- and rules designed for 'ancient' hardware need to be re-examined in the light of new paradigms or there will never be any progress on this planet.
i fail to see the connection between top- or bottom posting and "progress on this planet." go ahead and blast everybody, call them names, etc., and good luck finding help if you need it. i'm *plonking* this whole thread, even the mildly amusing effect of seeing others excite themselves about nothing has worn off by now. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2009/09/25 06:05 (GMT-0700) Linda Walsh composed:
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow
Guess again. I get hundreds of emails every day. No way I can remember a whole thread just from reading a subject line. Context is vital. A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of the discussion, and promotes and facilitates full quoting. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
It really isn't a problem when people trim the quotes down to only what is necessary instead of including 100% of what they reply to, including multiple copies of .sigs and list footers. Oh, and it's are the rule on this list: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- "The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation." 2nd U.S. President, John Adams Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Linda Walsh wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.
Those who have read previous emails have no problem following the flow and seeing it repeated ad infinitum/ad nauseum, is just mind numbing.
Besides...you are forcing people with disabilities to work harder -- think of blind people having to read through scads of repeated text until they get to the new content.
<other nonsense deleted> Here we go again! (though it has been a while since the last time this list went through this loop). There is always someone kicks this thing off.. but the arguments given above are among the silliest I have seen for a long time.
BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda
BTW Would be rather nice if you at least keep your text formatted consistently. A line length >80 is *not* friendly, and the iffy formatting is creating the situation where TBird is generating occasional very long lines in quoting your message and with apologies to others I am damned if I am going to edit the original text to get the reply to look reasonable on this occasion. Might be worth learning how to use your mail client and consider the benefits of consistent formatting before commenting about the current agreed practices on a mailing list..... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkq92oIACgkQasN0sSnLmgLtiACeO1IEKPBQAZzr9MQGq61h6uF0 kTIAninf4YurthNh2qforighU4elmHzj =dGgo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 G T Smith wrote:
Linda Walsh wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
BTW, I 'bottom' posted, because in this case, it made 'sense'. I responded to a short quote of what you said, but when people included pages of previous text, and add a few lines at the bottom, they should be forced to listen to elevator music for days on end. linda
BTW Would be rather nice if you at least keep your text formatted consistently. A line length >80 is *not* friendly, and the iffy formatting is creating the situation where TBird is generating occasional very long lines in quoting your message and with apologies to others I am damned if I am going to edit the original text to get the reply to look reasonable on this occasion. Might be worth learning how to use your mail client and consider the benefits of consistent formatting before commenting about the current agreed practices on a mailing list.....
Intriguing, message composer formats one way, message is sent/received perfectly OK ... something rather odd going here... need to look into this further .... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkq93KIACgkQasN0sSnLmgKzfwCgyHdBBUDzZfHxBk9bMogusWBe xa4AoPga/oompf4CfDmnBi51VEv2Q1wh =z2/j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I say... On Friday September 25 2009 8:05:05 am Linda Walsh wrote:
Peter Nikolic wrote:
Top posting is exactly what you have just done ... post your comment ABOVE which makes it hard to follow the flow of the article.
...that we...
--- Please don't go on about putting the most recent information first.
...split the difference. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (52)
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Adam Tauno Williams
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Allen Wilkinson
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JB2
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