On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Your only effort is to say that you are right and *they* are wrong w/o providing data,

My bug report was to forestall a specific action threatened by Binner. And he (Binner himself), ignoring the obvious conflict of interest, rushes in close the report. If you can't see the the ethical fault in that, you have my pity. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Benji Weber wrote:

2008/6/22 John Andersen :

...

My bug report was to forestall a specific action threatened by Binner.

And he (Binner himself), ignoring the obvious conflict of interest, rushes in close the report.

If you can't see the the ethical fault in that, you have my pity.

You are missing the point. The bug report was closed as "INVALID". Your bug report was not reporting a bug or even an enhancement request. If you want to discuss future strategies then use the mailing list, if you want to report a specific bug or request a specific feature use bugzilla. Stephan even indicated the appropriate place[0] to discuss whether and when KDE3 will be dropped.

[0] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-06/msg00040.html -- Benjamin Weber

What I wanted to do, was to prevent Opensuse from removing KDE3 in 11.1 as Binner threatened to do. Regardless of the state of KDE4, I want KDE3 to remain. (There is no category of bug report that specifically addresses preventing threatened package deletion as arm twisting to install and test someones pet future version of software) . I did not expect the man who made the threat to turn around and disallow the bug report. Highly unethical! Until you are ready to address the ethical dilemma of having the same person CLOSE the request as who MADE THE THREAT, your weighing in here amounts to nothing more than circling the wagons, and you end up looking like another of the KDE mafia out to silence any alternate opinion. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

Please, quote the "threat" and make the MessageID public,

It was in the bug report, with a link to his actual post. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02231.html There is only one way that post can be interpreted: If you don't switch to kde4 and file specific bug reports before release 11.1, we will force you to switch by deleting kde3 from the distro. The bug report was proper. Its under the proper distro (11.1) for the proper package (kde3) in the only "Type" category that applies. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 7:04 PM, wrote:

Short of that, move to Gnome if you aren't happy with KDE4.

Thanks for proving my point. The threat to delete KDE3 was real. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 7:28 PM, wrote:

----- "John Andersen" wrote:

...

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 7:04 PM, wrote:

...

Short of that, move to Gnome if you aren't happy with KDE4.

Thanks for proving my point. The threat to delete KDE3 was real.

Are you hallucinating by chance? They have drugs that help with that now I hear. Please see a physician and kill the drama on the list. You've already wasted enough of our time and space with it all weekend.

Thank you in advance. --

Look, don't lash out at me. It was your statement that essentially disproved your own assertion that I miss-characterized Binner's post. You gave me choice of liking KDE4 or going elsewhere. What am I to think of the chance of KDE3 remaining in the distro for version 11.1 if my only to choices are go Like KDE4 or move on? -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

----- "Matt Archer" wrote:

...

----- "John Andersen" wrote:

...

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Please, quote the "threat" and make the MessageID public, It was in the bug report, with a link to his actual post.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02231.html

There is only one way that post can be interpreted: If you don't switch to kde4 and file specific bug reports before release 11.1, we will force you to switch by deleting kde3 from

va.linuxguy@gmail.com wrote: the

...

...

distro.

The bug report was proper. Its under the proper distro (11.1) for the proper package (kde3) in the only "Type" category that applies. --

I read it, and I think you are stretching your representation of his comments just a bit. He's not threatening you. In fact he's making sense. He's saying that if you want KDE 3.x to stay in continued development then you need to give them concrete examples of what is wrong or incomplete in KDE 4. So far I have not seen a single example of that here on this list.

Binner threatening the whole SuSE community:

USE KDE 4, or we'll stop including KDE 3.5.x

...

Instead what we've been treated to over the course of two days is a small handful of people that seem very obstinate casting profanity and bad mouthing people that seem to have the best wishes of the community at heart.

If you want to make your point, then make your point. Make SPECIFIC points that reference SPECIFIC items. Perhaps that would help your cause. Short of that, move to Gnome if you aren't happy with KDE4.

We have been specific on numerous occasions Everytime, the answer is, "it's not done yet, don't worry your pretty little heads about it."

We're damned sick and tired of being treated like children. Especially those of use who have more time in the IT sector than most of the SUSE staff could even imagine.

I'm not going to imagine I understand the personality conflicts here. But can you not see that you are perhaps being counter-productive to your cause with the way you and others have been carrying on? Not to mention how disruptive it has become on the list? Is that fair to the group when things get taken this far? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

va.linuxguy@gmail.com wrote:

----- "John Andersen" wrote:

...

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Please, quote the "threat" and make the MessageID public,

It was in the bug report, with a link to his actual post.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02231.html

There is only one way that post can be interpreted: If you don't switch to kde4 and file specific bug reports before release 11.1, we will force you to switch by deleting kde3 from the distro.

The bug report was proper. Its under the proper distro (11.1) for the proper package (kde3) in the only "Type" category that applies. --

I read it, and I think you are stretching your representation of his comments just a bit.

Are you a Binner troll and a developer working for the KDE4 team? Look, here is the full quote of what Binner wrote - read it CAREFULLY: QUOTE On Sunday 22 June 2008 05:39:44 Bob S wrote: Wow, I hope that you are also considering offering KDE3.5.9. It will be removed from the distro release (and continue to be only available as build service project) some time. This may happen with openSUSE 11.1. As long as users give us not concrete feedback but rather "KDE4 is not KDE3!" (which will stay true forever) and ambigious "it's incomplete" it's likely. Bye, Steve UNQUOTE Let's me quote again this: "*It will be removed from the distro release (and continue to be only available as build service project) some time. This may happen with openSUSE 11.1*" Now if English is not your native language let me rephrase what Binner stated: "Sooner or later - and it may happen as early as with the release of openSUSE 11.1 - KDE3 will be removed from the openSUSE distribution and will continue to be only available from the Build Service project to those who want to use KDE3. In other words, once it is removed it will only be available if you elect to install it yourself from the Build Service. Oh, and once it is removed from the openSUSE distro and become only available from the Build Service it will be no longer developed (and possibly not supported except by those who want to use the Build Service to maintain KDE3)." There is a rider to what Binner decreed would happen -- and I don' know what authority he has to make such proclamations -- which is that, QUOTE As long as users give us not concrete feedback but rather "KDE4 is not KDE3!" (which will stay true forever) and ambigious [sic] "it's incomplete" it's likely." UNQUOTE The statement by Binner that "'KDE4 is not KDE3!'" is such an obvious tautology that it does not even require to be mentioned. Of course they are not the same. XP is not the same as W95 or NT; openSUSE 11.0 is not the same as openSUSE 9.3; etc. Binner lays down the condition - and again I ask what authority he has to do so - that *UNLESS* "users give *US*" - who actually is "us"? - "concrete feedback" about why KDE3 should be retained then KDE3 will be *removed from the openSUSE distro and this will happen as early as openSUSE 11.1*". So, it appears that Binner has made the decision that KDE3 will be removed from the version 11.1 of openSUSE and be only then available from the Build Service *UNLESS* and *PROVIDED* he - under the guise of the term "us" mentioned in his message - receives reasons which he considers as valid to retain KDE3 in openSUSE as a selectable desktop when installing openSUSE 11.1 and, possibly but not probably, beyond. And he has also decided that only he decides what is acceptable as a "feedback" re this matter because if he decides that it is not convenient to his way of thinking about KDE4 then he will discard it as being inappropriate just like he did with what John Andersen submitted as requested.

He's not threatening you. In fact he's making sense. He's saying that if you want KDE 3.x to stay in continued development

NO! NO! This is NOT what he is saying! "..to stay in continued development". There is NO mention by Binner of "continued development". READ what Binner wrote!

then you need to give them concrete examples of what is wrong or incomplete in KDE 4. So far I have not seen a single example of that here on this list.

Instead what we've been treated to over the course of two days is a small handful of people that seem very obstinate casting profanity and bad mouthing people that seem to have the best wishes of the community at heart.

If you want to make your point, then make your point. Make SPECIFIC points that reference SPECIFIC items. Perhaps that would help your cause. Short of that, move to Gnome if you aren't happy with KDE4.

OK, I have now concluded that you ARE a KDE4 developer and cannot see anything past your nose. What a simplistic statement to make when people of your ilk run out of ideas: "Go and use Gnome if you don't like what we are shoving down your throat! So there!" or "If you don't like what you read then go and use another distro like Ubuntu.", et alia. I MAY or MAY NOT eventually like using KDE4. What I am objecting to is the way people who work out in the field with clients on whom they rely are being ignored re their comments about KDE4 vs KDE3. I'll stop here before I get really annoyed. Ciao. -- If you don't succeed you run the risk of failure. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mike McMullin wrote:

On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 16:02 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

{Much good commentary deleted}

...

I MAY or MAY NOT eventually like using KDE4.

...

What I am objecting to is the way people who work out in the field with clients on whom they rely are being ignored re their comments about KDE4 vs KDE3. I'll stop here before I get really annoyed.

I rather doubt that Mr. Binner has the pull to just kill KDE3, I would assume that would actually come from the platform manager, or some such agency, and further that this decision was made a good bit ago. What remains unfortunate, is that openSuSE was to be a community based Distro, and this looks like the tail is wagging the dog. Not being opposed to Gnome (Hmmm isn't that a convenient state) I'll use it until the 4 series starts to tickle my fancy.

In any event, I'm calling up Novell from work today. This is outrageous. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Michael Schroeder wrote:

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 04:02:47PM +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

So, it appears that Binner has made the decision that KDE3 will be removed from the version 11.1 of openSUSE and be only then available from the Build Service *UNLESS* and *PROVIDED* he - under the guise of the term "us" mentioned in his message - receives reasons which he considers as valid to retain KDE3 in openSUSE as a selectable desktop when installing openSUSE 11.1 and, possibly but not probably, beyond.

And he has also decided that only he decides what is acceptable as a "feedback" re this matter because if he decides that it is not convenient to his way of thinking about KDE4 then he will discard it as being inappropriate just like he did with what John Andersen submitted as requested.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but doesn't he just say that when KDE4 is mature enough (which may happen with 11.1), it'll replace KDE3? Isn't that the same way it was done with the KDE2->KDE3 switch?

Cheers, Michael.

No, there are no such words used (about 'maturity'). I quoted what Binner said in full just as he wrote what he stated in his message. You can read for yourself what was written in the reference which John Andersen already gave in this thread. Ciao. -- If you don't succeed you run the risk of failure. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

We have cautioned Novell, repeatedly and in clear and concise terms, to learn from the Mandrake collapse, not to rush releases out the door with crippled software to misguidedly reach for a "projected" revenue stream, not to force beta, god forbid "alpha" software on its loyal end users, and to not ignore the wise advise and suggestions received from the user base. Has anyone listened? The most "user alienating" blunder I have seen in 8 years of being active with various linux distributions is the push of KDE4 out the door as part of 11.0. It was insanity in it finest moment. KDE4 had no business being part of the 11.0 release and should rightly be the topic of "opensuse-kde4@opensuse.org" until kde4, in its function, stability and utility has equaled or surpassed that of kde3.XX -- Period. But I guarantee you, that isn't Novell's plan. What I see is a conscious, deliberate plan by Novell to dump kde4 on its core user base and to use the community as beta testers so that by 11.1 Novell is the only distro that can claim to be a kde4 distribution. That is the only way to view it from a legitimate business decision perspective. If I'm right, Novell should be slapped for its dishonesty in going about it the way they have. I'm all for kde4 and I'm all for seeing Novell do it first. But, I am completely against Novell foisting kde4 on the user base until it is developed, functional and far beyond alpha and beta software. If you want help -- ask, don't dump. If Novell's plan is anything close to what I've opined, then Novell needs to be candid and honest with its user base. If Novell had said, "Hey, kde4 isn't ready yet, but we would like you guys (and girls) to load it and help get it functional so we can be the first distro to integrate it an provide kde4 functionality so it will give us a leg up on the competition when we're done", I would have been more than happy to say -- "sure, I don't mind helping, helps you generate income, helps me get a better distro." But instead, for whatever the actual reason, Novell has, intentionally or unintentionally, completely angered and alienated a significant minority, if not majority, of its core user base and supporters. It has given duplicitous reasons, and outright Bush/Cheney explanation for why kde4 is stuffed on top of 11.0 and why kde3 is on the way out. The Mandrake legacy all over again. If somewhere within the Linux side of Novell someone thinks they are being "smart" with this course of conduct, let the user base remind you -- "honesty is always the best policy." It's demanded as a right, not asked as a favor. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Peter Van Lone wrote:

And I think they have (per usual) a ham-handed method that reveals their own distrust of public dialogue. This is classic Novell. Hold things close, don't let too much out too early for fear of ... what??

I don't buy it. What we have seen is typical German Arrogance run amok. Binner is a Novell employee only recently. Certainly not long enough to adopt your putative "Novell Paranoia". Certainly not long enough to understand Novell's standards of business ethics. He abuses his power. Then the rest of the KDE Mafia pile on. All posting from German IP addresses. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Van Lone wrote:

On 6/23/08, David C. Rankin wrote: <snip good stuff>

...

If Novell's plan is anything close to what I've opined, then Novell needs to be candid and honest with its user base. If Novell had said, "Hey, kde4 isn't ready yet, but we would like you guys (and girls) to load it and help get it functional so we can be the first distro to integrate it an provide kde4 functionality so it will give us a leg up on the competition when we're done", I would have been more than happy to say -- "sure, I don't mind helping, helps you generate income, helps me get a better distro."

But instead, for whatever the actual reason, Novell has, intentionally or unintentionally, completely angered and alienated a significant minority, if not majority, of its core user base and supporters. It has given duplicitous reasons, and outright Bush/Cheney explanation for why kde4 is stuffed on top of 11.0 and why kde3 is on the way out. The Mandrake legacy all over again.

If somewhere within the Linux side of Novell someone thinks they are being "smart" with this course of conduct, let the user base remind you -- "honesty is always the best policy." It's demanded as a right, not asked as a favor.

that was one of the few posts in this whole series of posts that actually provided a bit of cogent analysis and speculation.

I don't think Novell has sly plans to force users to GNOME, nor do I think that Binner really meant what his words seemed to convey (I think it is a language thing ...). I don't think Novell are evil manipulators out to screw KDE and it's loyal following.

[pruned]

Having said that the tone of much of this dialogue has been pathetic and sky is falling and screechy stupid shit that I am tired of.

Peter

The is was posted a couple of days ago in opensuse-announce by Dirk Mueller: QUOTE Hi, There's an openSUSE KDE Community meeting is coming up tomorrow, Wednesday, June 24th. Contrary to our usual schedule, the meeting is two hours earlier (!), starting at 16:00 GMT Topics can be proposed also in advance on http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Meetings The current list of topics: * old action items * KDE repository splitting (remove :Extra-Apps?) * KDE3 to KDE4 migration for openSUSE 11.1 * take a look at http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Ideas for 11.1. Please join us if you're interested. We'll meet at #opensuse-kde on irc.freenode.net at 16:00 GMT. Please use http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=6&day=24&year=2008&hour=16&min=0&sec=0&p1=0 to figure out when this is in your time zone. :-) Greetings, Dirk UNQUOTE What is the 3rd item on the agenda? The minutes of this meeting are yet to be released. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Michael Schroeder wrote:

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 04:02:47PM +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

So, it appears that Binner has made the decision that KDE3 will be removed from the version 11.1 of openSUSE and be only then available from the Build Service *UNLESS* and *PROVIDED* he - under the guise of the term "us" mentioned in his message - receives reasons which he considers as valid to retain KDE3 in openSUSE as a selectable desktop when installing openSUSE 11.1 and, possibly but not probably, beyond.

And he has also decided that only he decides what is acceptable as a "feedback" re this matter because if he decides that it is not convenient to his way of thinking about KDE4 then he will discard it as being inappropriate just like he did with what John Andersen submitted as requested.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but doesn't he just say that when KDE4 is mature enough (which may happen with 11.1), it'll replace KDE3? Isn't that the same way it was done with the KDE2->KDE3 switch?

Yes, I'm quite certain that IS the way it will be! When it's finally as complete as KDE 3.5*, then and only then will I use it. Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 18:42 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Please, quote the "threat" and make the MessageID public,

It was in the bug report, with a link to his actual post.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02231.html

There is only one way that post can be interpreted: If you don't switch to kde4 and file specific bug reports before release 11.1, we will force you to switch by deleting kde3 from the distro.

The bug report was proper. Its under the proper distro (11.1) for the proper package (kde3) in the only "Type" category that applies.

So then it's back to gnome for a bunch of us. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 06:26 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

Mike McMullin wrote:

...

On Sun, 2008-06-22 at 18:42 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Please, quote the "threat" and make the MessageID public, It was in the bug report, with a link to his actual post.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02231.html

There is only one way that post can be interpreted: If you don't switch to kde4 and file specific bug reports before release 11.1, we will force you to switch by deleting kde3 from the distro.

The bug report was proper. Its under the proper distro (11.1) for the proper package (kde3) in the only "Type" category that applies.

So then it's back to gnome for a bunch of us.

I'll change distros before changing to that dumbed-down GNOME desktop.

Not to get into a flame war, but I have no problems with GNOME as a desktop, and used it exclusively during one of the 10.? releases as KDE made my system grind to a halt. I would prefer a stable well functioning KDE because there are others that use this system and they're lost outside of KDE, but if I have to do GNOME for a bit, or just not upgrade to 11.1, then so be it. This is not Windows, and I do have a choice as I do the system setup/maintenance. Switching to another Distro is a possibility, but I like YaST too much to quit SuSE for a less functional administrator interface. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith wrote:

...(good comments)

There are still applications which give responses which may make sense to the developer and with luck the experienced user but leave many who just use the machine to do their real job befuddled and bemused. It might be 'cool' to dress such messages in fancy graphics windows but it still does not help if you are delivering the same confusing messages.

Hear, Hear!

...(good comments)

John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber wrote:

2008/6/22 John Andersen :

...

My bug report was to forestall a specific action threatened by Binner.

And he (Binner himself), ignoring the obvious conflict of interest, rushes in close the report.

If you can't see the the ethical fault in that, you have my pity.

You are missing the point. The bug report was closed as "INVALID". Your bug report was not reporting a bug or even an enhancement request. If you want to discuss future strategies then use the mailing list, if you want to report a specific bug or request a specific feature use bugzilla. Stephan even indicated the appropriate place[0] to discuss whether and when KDE3 will be dropped.

That' doesn't matter if it's "valid"... that's what Binner instructed us to do, and what John Anderson therefore did. Binner then shit-canned the bug report. If "discussing it on the list" isn't the proper action, and the "proper action" is filing a bug report, which is immediately closed for being "improper" well then... with people like Binner on the SUSE team, blatantly giving the big "fuck you" to the user base, have fun trying to keep a revenue stream going. When the SUSE team is told to clean out your desks, because Novell is dropping the product... you can all point an extra finger at Binner (among all the other people who are basically telling us users to go fuck ourselves).

[0] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-06/msg00040.html -- Benjamin Weber

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