On Wednesday 06 September 2006 12:00, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

 Unfortunately the current libzypp update takes longer than anticipated, so have some more patience please.

I'd rather have it RIGHT than right now.

Note: We will only to update the ISOs on the ftp server (not the Live Image and not the retail boxes),

This would be really great. But why not the other way around? Release the download ISO's 3 months earlier than the boxed set. That way competent users <breaks arm patting self on back> would test it and find show stopper and major annoyances (like libzypp) before wasting the plastic to burn DVDs. By the time the boxed set came out, maybe 3 months later (and concurrent with the corresponding release of SLED), hopefully to be snapped up by desktop users and small businesses, it would be rock solid, and worth the money. The way you propose now, the boxed set runs the risk of being worthless by the time it arrives. Then opensuse pays the bandwidth for subsequent re-downloads anyway. Next time, people may learn just to skip the boxed set. (Now it could be that the boxed set is a dinosaur looking for a place to die, but it is the only (meager) revenue source for opensuse and making it the most reliable it can possibly will keep people buying). -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Wednesday 06 September 2006 22:16, Marcus Meissner wrote:

And this way the box cannot make money at all.

What way? The way it is now, or the way I proposed?

Germany had a lot of Linux magazines publishing 10.1 with their own additions for less money than we can even produce the boxes for.

In the end this is likely the way it will go, even now our box revenue is pretty small.

Perhaps we need a new model. Its hard to know what is appropriate when OpenSuse is really just an arm of Novel. As soon as Novel gets tired of the game I fear it will drop to the wayside. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Wednesday 06 September 2006 22:42, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Wed, Sep 06, 2006 at 10:29:46PM -0800, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Wednesday 06 September 2006 22:16, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

And this way the box cannot make money at all.

What way? The way it is now, or the way I proposed?

They way it develops even now.

Releasing the box even later as you suggested will only fasten this pace.

Ciao, Marcus

Has anyone ever TRIED that approach? Since virtually no money is made on boxed sets now, what do you have to lose? Sometimes I think the real problem is too many releases with too short a life span. Maybe there should be boxed sets only for "dot two" releases. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 08:55 +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote: {snip}

...

Since virtually no money is made on boxed sets now, what do you have to lose? Sometimes I think the real problem is too many releases with too short a life span. Maybe there should be boxed sets only for "dot two" releases.

We have lengthened the release cycle to 8 months now and will be increasingly using the openSUSE buildservice to have "up to date" packages available.

Personally I like the longer release cycle idea. I have systems running from 9.1 to 10.1, and this might actually encourage me to get them all at the same level.

The Thursday 2006-09-07 at 08:16 +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

In the end this is likely the way it will go, even now our box revenue is pretty small.

This time has been the first I did not buy the box in years. Why? One, because I can choose. Two, because the box contains NO paper manuals (admin book).

If you sell the box with the admin book in paper as previously, I would buy it. As it is now, no.

You should consider that people wanting the distro cheap will probably download it or use a magazine. Those willing to pay want something extra.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R. Just my two cents worth. I like the box set since its ready available if I need it. Also I have been unable to get K3B to burn a dvd reliably. I have

On Thursday 07 September 2006 04:01, Carlos E. R. wrote: the latest version and it will not burn the dvd, so what good is a downloaded ISO. I've tried many dvd brands, no help. My drive is new. K3b will format the drive but dies when I try to burn a 4.7 dvd. Is there any other dvd burners? I was going to try Nero but they do not have a demo of there new version yet. I'm on 10.0 and have not gone to 10.1 because of the fact a boxed set would have to have downloads done to get things to work (updates). Thanks for lrtting me vent. Hopefully 10.2 will be cleaner. -- Russ

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2006-09-07 at 10:20 -0700, Russbucket wrote:

Just my two cents worth. I like the box set since its ready available if I need it. Also I have been unable to get K3B to burn a dvd reliably. I have the latest version and it will not burn the dvd, so what good is a downloaded ISO.

There are of cases like yours when the image is not an option. Many people do not have a good network access, that's another reason. But now that I do have the option to choose downloading or buying, I don't buy because it doesn't offer something noticiable more interesting than the download. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFAJq/tTMYHG2NR9URAqQ0AJ0cuMnJbyQCILxD5oPY+mpqTgZ5jgCdF0On Cx3poAhPX/UsVZGtgV8DpYo= =hO2N -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 04:02 pm, John Andersen wrote:

Release the download ISO's 3 months earlier than the boxed set. That way competent users <breaks arm patting self on back> would test it and find show stopper and major annoyances (like libzypp) before wasting the plastic to burn DVDs.

I think this suggestion will kill sales completely. Sales need to compete with downloads for early access. But Novell do need to have a hard think about what the boxed sets offer. When they first took over SuSE they were staggered at the boxed sales. Now they have removed all point to buying boxed sets, sales have dropped to the level they seem resigned to. I've certainly dropped off, I get more from the download. But a boxed set can offer: authority This is OpenSUSE. completeness Contains ALL packages. convenience Just buy it, forget nursing bittorrent. speed Don't download for days, get it air-mailed. manuals I liked the manuals, especially the Admin Guide. warm fuzzies Not enough on its own, needs the above. I'll repeat my call for: A Deluxe Edition (US$119); 1 CD and lots of DVDs, 2 manuals, All packages, All architectures and Source An Airmail Edition (US$19); 1 DVD*, All packages, 1 architecture, no Source The Airmail Edition could offer updates, get 10.1.3**, now with Actually Works! -- Michael James michael.james@csiro.au System Administrator voice: 02 6246 5040 CSIRO Bioinformatics Facility fax: 02 6246 5166 * Probably Double Sided, Dual Layer ** I'm currently running 10.1.2

* John Andersen [09-07-06 04:57]:

If they thought the boxed sales were "staggering" why would they kill it off the first chance they got?

Perhaps, 'staggering' in this instance is in a negative light? -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2

On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 06:55 pm, John Andersen wrote:

After Thursday 07 September 2006 00:42, Michael James changed what he wrote:

...

I think this suggestion will slow sales significantly.

The existing model comes close to incorporating both our ideas. Go through the Alpha releases, then the Betas. Get some downloadable release candidates out. (ISOs and Install Source) Let lots of early adopters test. When it goes gold, update the Install Source to GM and press DVDs but give the boxes a fortnight's head start over the downloadable ISOs. Create the Airmail edition.

...

Sales need to compete with downloads for early access.

Yes, that model has been wildly successful for OpenSuse, Red Hat and all others that have tried it, hasn't it!?

I stand by this point, based on the highly significant statistical sample of 1 (me) it did work. When the box was the quickest way of getting the new release I bought it. (Speed, convenience + warm fuzzies) When the box stopped being the quickest way, I stopped. When the box doesn't even contain the complete package list from the install source, nor an important manual, Woah, This is not profiting anybody. Juxtaposing what you and I have said:

...

Novell need to have a hard think about what the boxed sets offer. The boxed set sales have ALREADY disappeared with the nearly instantaneous availability of download ISOs. Sounds like we actually agree here.

My testbed machine might run a download, but servers in my business and my customer's bussinesses would have the boxed set sitting there on the shelf. I wouldn't install the (possibly) buggy first download, knowing that the clean boxed set would arrive with in a couple months.

Q: What's in a name? A: Everything! Call the downloads Betas or Preliminary RCs and give the boxed set the chance to be the first GM and we are in complete agreement.

...

When they first took over SuSE they were staggered at the boxed sales.

You know this HOW?

Novell toured some of the German SuSE team to Australia. We were asking about the cultural differences that had to be overcome to bring Novell across to a F/OSS model. They told how, when the Novell exec first saw the order for SuSE 9.2? pressings, he crossed 2 zeros off as "an obvious typo". No, the SuSE side told him, we will clear that many copies.

If they thought the boxed sales were "staggering" why would they kill it off the first chance they got?

Ummm " ... cultural differences that had to be overcome to bring Novell across to a F/OSS model" ? -- Michael James michael.james@csiro.au System Administrator voice: 02 6246 5040 CSIRO Bioinformatics Facility fax: 02 6246 5166 No matter how much you pay for software, you always get less than you hoped. Unless you pay nothing, then you get more.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2006-09-08 at 11:20 +1000, Michael James wrote:

When the box doesn't even contain the complete package list from the install source, nor an important manual, Woah, This is not profiting anybody.

Exactly. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFFAVRDtTMYHG2NR9URAkybAJsFuGVxMvceut8Rtobq98ofKrl+mwCeJktA UyO/NXuaSkqmoyznCXHobT8= =gL2k -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Thursday 12 October 2006 14:48, Carlos F Lange wrote:

Hurray! The wait is almost over. See here: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=197784 ------- Comment #29 from aj@novell.com 2006-10-12 01:39 MST ------- Media are finished and are on their way to our mirrors. Announcement will follow once the mirrors have everything. -------------------------------------------------------------

This surely shows that Suse listens and respects their community's concern. I salute you Suse! I will never stop using Suse. As a matter of fact, I'm planning to get NCLP/E when the time comes. Way to go Suse! -- Fajar Priyanto | Reg'd Linux User #327841 | Linux tutorial http://linux2.arinet.org 1:41pm up 2:51, 2.6.16.13-4-default GNU/Linux Let's use OpenOffice. http://www.openoffice.org

But will you Pay for it??? That is, after all, what keeps it coming.

I have for the last 8 years... I don't see any reason to stop. I actually like having the DVD around. I prefer that to having home brewed DVDs created from isos. There is the added benefit of instilling some measure of confidence in new users when they ask me to help them try out Linux and I pull out a professionally pressed commercial DVD. The books.. well we all know that story... I'd prefer to have more books... but... I can deal with PFD as well. It would be nice to have some additional added value to the boxed version... but I will still head off to my local computer store and pick up a copy once the new version hits the shelf. C.

On Thursday 19 October 2006 23:32, Fajar Priyanto wrote:

in my opinion Opensuse and SLED is the FIRST distro EVER that has convinced me that Linux is ready for regular user.

Actually, SLED is meant for the corporate world and it has a pretty limited package selection compared to the Full opensuse. Maybe that's what you meant by regular users. Maybe you were trying not to use the word clueless users? ;-) I've been giving friends Kubuntu when they want to try linux because totally free, and its update mechanism has been better than zmd/zypp. Maybe I will go back to Suse for these users with 10.2. SuSE's Point Two releases seem to work pretty well in my experience. -- The truth about Che: http://www.slate.com/id/2107100/ _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Monday 23 October 2006 19:47, Basil Chupin wrote:

I'll add to this if I may.

I found out last night that SLED is like M$ XP where it will not boot on a computer on which it was not originally installed. Install it on one computer and try to run it on another and... you get the 2-finger salute.

What do you mean install on one computer and try to run on another? Did you mean try to install it again on another? Its a paid product. Nuf said. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Monday 23 October 2006 21:44, stephan beal wrote:

It sounds like(?) he means that he installed the system then moved the hard drive to another(??). In many cases this won't work with Linux without some kernel/driver/fstab/X11 reconfiguration.

Heh, you'd be surprised how often I've gotten away with this. Usually the hard drive dies first, but in more than a couple cases the Mobo died and I picked up my drive and slapped them in a new case. Worst I had to do was run Sax again. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Tuesday 24 October 2006 10:47, Basil Chupin wrote:

I'll add to this if I may.

I found out last night that SLED is like M$ XP where it will not boot on a computer on which it was not originally installed. Install it on one computer and try to run it on another and... you get the 2-finger salute.

Kubuntu however does not suffer from this M$-inspired affliction.

Maybe the hardware is too different, that the autodetection process got confused? I don't believe that SLED is protected like the way M$ does. -- Fajar Priyanto | Reg'd Linux User #327841 | Linux tutorial http://linux2.arinet.org 12:47pm up 15:53, 2.6.16.13-4-default GNU/Linux Let's use OpenOffice. http://www.openoffice.org

On Tue, 2006-10-24 at 13:47 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Thursday 19 October 2006 23:32, Fajar Priyanto wrote:

...

in my opinion Opensuse and SLED is the FIRST distro EVER that has convinced me that Linux is ready for regular user.

Actually, SLED is meant for the corporate world and it has a pretty limited package selection compared to the Full opensuse.

Maybe that's what you meant by regular users. Maybe you were trying not to use the word clueless users? ;-)

...

I've been giving friends Kubuntu when they want to try linux because totally free, and its update mechanism has been better than zmd/zypp. Maybe I will go back to Suse for these users with 10.2. SuSE's Point Two releases seem to work pretty well in my experience.

I'll add to this if I may.

I found out last night that SLED is like M$ XP where it will not boot on a computer on which it was not originally installed. Install it on one computer and try to run it on another and... you get the 2-finger salute.

Not the case! I do this all the time. I have found that even if the drivers needed in initrd are not there, you can install the hard disk, boot with the SUSE install CD/DVD, and select to have the system checked. It will actually do a new hardware scan and update initrd and whatever else is needed. This is one damned impressive SUSE feature. So, if the new machine has different hardware or any difficulty, try this. Remember that even if the hardware is the same, you may have differences in the BIOS that make hard disks look different.

Kubuntu however does not suffer from this M$-inspired affliction.

Cheers.

-- This morning my administration released the budget numbers for fiscal 2006. These budget numbers are not just estimates; these are the actual results for the fiscal year that ended February the 30th.

George W. Bush 11 Oct 2006

-- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems AB Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Tel: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Fax: Int +46 8-31 42 23

On Wed, 2006-10-25 at 00:58 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Tue, 2006-10-24 at 13:47 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

[pruned]

...

...

I found out last night that SLED is like M$ XP where it will not boot on a computer on which it was not originally installed. Install it on one computer and try to run it on another and... you get the 2-finger salute.

...

Not the case! I do this all the time. I have found that even if the drivers needed in initrd are not there, you can install the hard disk, boot with the SUSE install CD/DVD, and select to have the system checked. It will actually do a new hardware scan and update initrd and whatever else is needed. This is one damned impressive SUSE feature.

So, if the new machine has different hardware or any difficulty, try this. Remember that even if the hardware is the same, you may have differences in the BIOS that make hard disks look different.

You are talking about SLED and not OpenSUSE? I am talking about SLED.

Granted my experience is for OpenSUSE, and 'regular' SUSE before that., but I cannot imagine this would be removed for SLED. This has been in SUSE since 9.x. Maybe earlier, but that is when I noticed it. I think it is available via a button on the bottom of the first screen before the regular install boots. I can agree that it is not made too obvious.

Doing the Repair, or even booting into and existing installation, using a CD/DVD does not get SLED 10.0 booted- it keeps claiming that it cannot find hda1 (where it's installed and is the only OS installed).

What exactly is hda1? Some sort of SATA? There are some BIOS settings for this in respect to how the disk is seen. If the BIOS is set one way, the disk can be assigned to the SCSI sub-system. In another mode, the SATA driver must be more involved and it is not seen as a SCSI disk. I can check the details if you want. I had to sort this out to get SATA hot swapping working.

But put the same HD into the computer on which SLED was originally installed and- voila! hda1 miraculously becomes visible to SLED!

Cheers.

-- A quick survey at this office revealed that the preferred method of getting rid of unwanted pubic hair is to use dental floss.

-- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems AB Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Tel: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Fax: Int +46 8-31 42 23