[opensuse] Please give more information in answers...
On December 21, 2009 05:28:03 am wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-12-20 at 23:41 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
Is there a straigtforward guide to setting up CUPS in an opensuse 11.0 environment that I can follow?
Simply use YaST, let it do the job for you.
-- Cheers, Helpful Poster
Thanks for the reply, Helpful Poster. I appreciate that you took the time to make a suggestion. This brings me, however, to make a point about replies to requests for help. (And to be clear, this is not aimed at the helpful poster, because I'm guilty of doing it as well.) Our habit of making what seem to be simple answers to simple questions are not perceived as simple answers. To many readers, they either seem completely dismissive - as in go read the f$%^&ing manual, or are so lacking in practical how do I do it terms that the poster simply mutters under their breath about damned Linux geeks and goes back to the dark side. And yes, I appreciate it that some posters don't read the manual, but that isn't the point. At the very least, we need to describe the actions in much clearer terms than the example above. Telling me to go to YAST/Hardware/Printer and that I can set up shared printing there is ever so much more helpful. Let's be nice to each other. -- Bob Smits bob@rsmits.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Go RTFM and stop complaining..... Girls....... /joke! Merry Christmas everyone! :D Dave ------------- root@crankyadmin.net cranky@archlinux.us On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Robert Smits <bob@rsmits.ca> wrote:
On December 21, 2009 05:28:03 am wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-12-20 at 23:41 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
Is there a straigtforward guide to setting up CUPS in an opensuse 11.0 environment that I can follow?
Simply use YaST, let it do the job for you.
-- Cheers, Helpful Poster
Thanks for the reply, Helpful Poster. I appreciate that you took the time to make a suggestion.
This brings me, however, to make a point about replies to requests for help. (And to be clear, this is not aimed at the helpful poster, because I'm guilty of doing it as well.)
Our habit of making what seem to be simple answers to simple questions are not perceived as simple answers. To many readers, they either seem completely dismissive - as in go read the f$%^&ing manual, or are so lacking in practical how do I do it terms that the poster simply mutters under their breath about damned Linux geeks and goes back to the dark side.
And yes, I appreciate it that some posters don't read the manual, but that isn't the point.
At the very least, we need to describe the actions in much clearer terms than the example above.
Telling me to go to YAST/Hardware/Printer and that I can set up shared printing there is ever so much more helpful.
Let's be nice to each other.
-- Bob Smits bob@rsmits.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 12/21/2009 01:49 PM, David Houston pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
Go RTFM and stop complaining.....
As you just pointed out: http://en.opensuse.org/Opensuse_mailing_list_netiquette#Use_bottom-posting_o... :-) -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
As you just pointed out:
http://en.opensuse.org/Opensuse_mailing_list_netiquette#Use_bottom-posting_o...
:-)
-- Ken Schneider
/me owned Dave ------------- root@crankyadmin.net cranky@archlinux.us -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-12-21 at 10:45 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
On December 21, 2009 05:28:03 am wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-12-20 at 23:41 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
Is there a straigtforward guide to setting up CUPS in an opensuse 11.0 environment that I can follow?
Simply use YaST, let it do the job for you.
Thanks for the reply, Helpful Poster. I appreciate that you took the time to make a suggestion.
It was a serious suggestion. I can not give more info on how to use yast, because that program has help, has good documentation, and guides the user. I can't do a better job than it does. If you have an specific question about what yast does, then I'll try to give more info. But I will not write a book explaining how to use yast, unless you tell first what your problem with using yast is. The subject is too extense and my time is limited - and there is a manual that explains it better than what I could do. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAksv67MACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XskwCfbPru3o+EVFmH9euJDp2VOCT8 66MAni0Lrge2/49Rkquh1Pwo+StpengX =Qiph -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 21 December 2009 15:42:10 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Monday, 2009-12-21 at 10:45 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
On December 21, 2009 05:28:03 am wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-12-20 at 23:41 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
Is there a straigtforward guide to setting up CUPS in an opensuse 11.0 environment that I can follow?
Simply use YaST, let it do the job for you.
Thanks for the reply, Helpful Poster. I appreciate that you took the time to make a suggestion.
It was a serious suggestion.
I can not give more info on how to use yast, because that program has help, has good documentation, and guides the user. I can't do a better job than it does.
I beg to differ. Please take a look at the thread, "Understanding YaST2 Bootloader setup," started 2009-12-08, for an example to the contrary. :-)
If you have an specific question about what yast does, then I'll try to give more info. But I will not write a book explaining how to use yast, unless you tell first what your problem with using yast is. The subject is too extense and my time is limited - and there is a manual that explains it better than what I could do.
There's a user manual for YaST? That's news to me; I've been looking for one since I started using SuSE 6.3. Can you give me a pointer to it? I would greatly appreciate that. Leslie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-12-21 at 16:26 -0600, Leslie Turriff wrote: ...
There's a user manual for YaST? That's news to me; I've been looking for one since I started using SuSE 6.3. Can you give me a pointer to it? I would greatly appreciate that.
You have been using SuSE since 6.3 and you don't know the manual? Shame on you. Ok, how to set up a printer, here: file:///usr/share/doc/manual/opensuse-manual_en/manual/sec.y2.hw.print.html Install the manual first, of course. There is an rpm for it. Or else, look it up in google, it is also online, html and/or pdf. In 6.3, by the way, you could also get the manual in German, Spanish, French, and Italian, I think. It came printed with the box, too. Note: The reference to "look it up in google" is because I don't have the link myself. To tell you the exact link I would have to google for it, so it seems appropiate to delegate that work on you. So written lest somebody else accuses me of not giving proper and kind enough advice. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkswEU8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WgdgCcC2Sqr6dqsrioD4/h3/AIJF4O U4gAn2p7Vxf2VqrOkWYTOhPr5yLfQOxy =9LEu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Robert Smits wrote:
On December 21, 2009 05:28:03 am wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-12-20 at 23:41 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
Is there a straigtforward guide to setting up CUPS in an opensuse 11.0 environment that I can follow? Simply use YaST, let it do the job for you.
-- Cheers, Helpful Poster
Thanks for the reply, Helpful Poster. I appreciate that you took the time to make a suggestion.
This brings me, however, to make a point about replies to requests for help. (And to be clear, this is not aimed at the helpful poster, because I'm guilty of doing it as well.)
Our habit of making what seem to be simple answers to simple questions are not perceived as simple answers. To many readers, they either seem completely dismissive - as in go read the f$%^&ing manual, or are so lacking in practical how do I do it terms that the poster simply mutters under their breath about damned Linux geeks and goes back to the dark side.
And yes, I appreciate it that some posters don't read the manual, but that isn't the point.
At the very least, we need to describe the actions in much clearer terms than the example above.
Telling me to go to YAST/Hardware/Printer and that I can set up shared printing there is ever so much more helpful.
Let's be nice to each other.
"It's in yast" is called a pointer. It's possible you didn't know there was a configurator front end in there, so you need to be told that much. But y You get pointers for free. You have to pay for time consuming hand-holding. Consider also, if/when you _do_ get a lot of time consuming help for free from someone, apparently their time is worth little, which implies something about their help. The exception is occasionally if the question is good (ie: it exposes something the generally available docs do not address well enough) then someone may write a time consuming and thorough answer for free, because they are not really answering you because for some reason your personal success at getting your printer to print is important to them, but writing something that can be googled up and referred to by anyone else with the same question later. If you get an answer "read the menual" it's generally because the answer has already been written, far better and more thoroughly and correctly than any off the cuff quick reply. It's offensive and selfish and ignorant to expect someone who has spent a lot of time learning things, to sit there and hand write out the same answer that already has been written. Anything I or someone else says, when good documentation exists, would be less correct than the documentation. What? the manual for foo is long and complicated? Too Bad! Read it and know, or don't and live without, or pay someone else to do it for you. There are no quick, easy, yet correct answers to complex problems or systems. The extra personal touch, the reason for mail lists and newsgroups and web forums, is to help those who are at least trying to help themselves. You read the manual, and you have some _specific_ question about part of it. No an open ended "tell me how to do it". Documentation is of course as subject to fault as the programs they describe, but you still have to start from the assumption that docs exist and are correct and complete, and only make other people work for you _after_ you've exhausted the docs. And if the answer you get is a pointer, go in the direction pointed yourself, or at least as far as you can. Do not expect to be carried there. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello, On Dec 21 16:59 Brian K. White wrote (shortened):
... if the question is good ... then someone may write a time consuming and thorough answer for free, because they are not really answering you ... but writing something that can be googled up and referred to by anyone else with the same question later.
Another reason is that the responder is interested in the particular issue to learn whether or not his advice really solves the issue so that next time when a similar issue pops up he has already some knowledge about it.
If you get an answer "read the menual" it's generally because the answer has already been written, far better and more thoroughly and correctly than any off the cuff quick reply. It's offensive and selfish and ignorant to expect someone who has spent a lot of time learning things, to sit there and hand write out the same answer that already has been written.
If the answer is a bare "read the manual" without any useful pointer to the right specific manual for the particular case, either the answer itself is offensive and selfish and ignorant, or the answer is meant as some kind of "final warning" before an offensive and selfish and ignorant questioner will be completely ignored. Merry Christmas and a happy New Year! Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 12/21/2009 10:45 AM, Robert Smits wrote:
On December 21, 2009 05:28:03 am wrote:
On Sunday, 2009-12-20 at 23:41 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
Is there a straigtforward guide to setting up CUPS in an opensuse 11.0 environment that I can follow?
Simply use YaST, let it do the job for you.
-- Cheers, Helpful Poster
Thanks for the reply, Helpful Poster. I appreciate that you took the time to make a suggestion.
In the present case, the suggestion to use YAST was spot on and the exact advice needed. The OP (You) was wandering around in text mode peeking and poking at scripts and not making any progress. This indicated that the OP TOTALLY missed the fact that this functionality is bundled up into Yast in a very workable way. That the OP (you) knew enough about Linux to poke around in scripts suggests that if merely pointed in the right direction (yast) there would be every likelihood that the problem would be easily handled by Yast, and the OP had simply missed this option. Further questions could certainly be asked if Yast was unclear, but to avoid insulting the intelligence of the OP, its pretty common and decent thing to do to just give the name of the tool, and assume if more help is needed a more focused question could be asked after looking down the path suggested. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
In the present case, the suggestion to use YAST was spot on and the exact advice needed. The OP (You) was wandering around in text mode peeking and poking at scripts and not making any progress. This indicated that the OP TOTALLY missed the fact that this functionality is bundled up into Yast in a very workable way. That the OP (you) knew enough about Linux to poke around in scripts suggests that if merely pointed in the right direction (yast) there would be every likelihood that the problem would be easily handled by Yast, and the OP had simply missed this option. Further questions could certainly be asked if Yast was unclear, but to avoid insulting the intelligence of the OP, its pretty common and decent thing to do to just give the name of the tool, and assume if more help is needed a more focused question could be asked after looking down the path suggested. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is a very good response to the topic. I hope the OP is satisfied with it. The web interface is also useful; http://localhost:631/admin Best, James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On December 21, 2009 03:08:56 pm James D. Parra wrote:
In the present case, the suggestion to use YAST was spot on and the exact advice needed.
The OP (You) was wandering around in text mode peeking and poking at scripts and not making any progress.
No, I wasn't wandering around in text mode - I was looking at advice that told me about doing things in text mode and I wanted a more opensuse way.
This indicated that the OP TOTALLY missed the fact that this functionality is bundled up into Yast in a very workable way.
Exactly correct. John pointed this out, gave two urls of useful information that was just what I needed and I responded and thanked him for it.
That the OP (you) knew enough about Linux to poke around in scripts suggests that if merely pointed in the right direction (yast) there would be every likelihood that the problem would be easily handled by Yast, and the OP had simply missed this option.
If all I had to go on was the second poster's reply, it would have been pretty unclear to a newbie what the heck he meant.
Further questions could certainly be asked if Yast was unclear, but to avoid insulting the intelligence of the OP, its pretty common and decent thing to do to just give the name of the tool, and assume if more help is needed a more focused question could be asked after looking down the path suggested.
That's why I suggested that more than one word answers would be more useful. I wasn't intending to provoke criticism, just that it would be more helpful if our answers weren't so cryptic - not to us, but to others. I've been around suse since 9.1 but never had any idea I could share printers through yast, and the several hours I spent googling earlier gave me only reams on ways to configure non-existent (on my system) files. Bob -- bob@rsmits.ca 8) Use common sense in routing cable. Avoid wrapping coax around sources of strong electric or magnetic fields. Do not wrap the cable around flourescent light ballasts or cyclotrons, for example. -- Ethernet Headstart Product, Information and Installation Guide, Bell Technologies, pg. 11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-12-21 at 10:31 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
Further questions could certainly be asked if Yast was unclear, but to avoid insulting the intelligence of the OP, its pretty common and decent thing to do to just give the name of the tool, and assume if more help is needed a more focused question could be asked after looking down the path suggested.
That's why I suggested that more than one word answers would be more useful. I wasn't intending to provoke criticism, just that it would be more helpful if our answers weren't so cryptic - not to us, but to others.
If my answer that you could use YaST to the purpose was unclear, you simply had to say so and I would have expanded. Typically a simple pointer to use a tool is enough, and it is a wast of time (for me) to write a full answer before I know if it is needed or not. That's how things go in mail lists, sp. if the replier has little time. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkswu/IACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UDUwCfTCS0cOUHMFKoEbu3Kyt7ka7N t3EAn1ppfh9pK1gK4RDIxSEygEV/iwqD =o9y4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On December 22, 2009 04:30:41 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Monday, 2009-12-21 at 10:31 -0800, Robert Smits wrote:
Further questions could certainly be asked if Yast was unclear, but to avoid insulting the intelligence of the OP, its pretty common and decent thing to do to just give the name of the tool, and assume if more help is needed a more focused question could be asked after looking down the path suggested.
That's why I suggested that more than one word answers would be more useful. I wasn't intending to provoke criticism, just that it would be more helpful if our answers weren't so cryptic - not to us, but to others.
If my answer that you could use YaST to the purpose was unclear, you simply had to say so and I would have expanded. Typically a simple pointer to use a tool is enough, and it is a wast of time (for me) to write a full answer before I know if it is needed or not.
That's how things go in mail lists, sp. if the replier has little time.
Carlos, by the time I saw your message, I had already read and responded to John Anderson's reply. So, no, it wasn't necessary to ask you to expand. However, I felt the general subject of having fuller answers deserved a post, and so I posted the beginning of this thread. Please note I wasn't complaining about your answer - indeed you're not mentioned in the post - and I noted I was as guilty of doing this as everyone else. I do feel it is more helpful to give fuller answers, especially if you don't know what level of experience the OP has. I did not intend criticism, just a hint that might make newbies feel more at home here in opensuse. Best wishes and Best of the Season to you and yours. -- bob@rsmits.ca 8) Use common sense in routing cable. Avoid wrapping coax around sources of strong electric or magnetic fields. Do not wrap the cable around flourescent light ballasts or cyclotrons, for example. -- Ethernet Headstart Product, Information and Installation Guide, Bell Technologies, pg. 11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Brian K. White -
Carlos E. R. -
David Houston -
James D. Parra -
Johannes Meixner -
John Andersen -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Leslie Turriff -
Robert Smits