Qt5 Configuration Tool is not configured correctly.
Hello SuSE universe - I am running OpenSuSE 15.4 x64 with the KDE/Plasma desktop - Operating System: openSUSE Leap 15.4 KDE Plasma Version: 5.24.4 KDE Frameworks Version: 5.90.0 Qt Version: 5.15.2 Kernel Version: 5.14.21-150400.24.88-default (64-bit) Graphics Platform: X11 Processors: 8 ×? Intel®? Core?? i7-6820HK CPU @ 2.70GHz Memory: 31.3 GiB of RAM Graphics Processor: llvmpipe The font size of the Emacs menus is way to small for this old man to read, so I thought to try and figure out how to increase it. Internet searching led me to believe that the font size for the Emacs editor is controlled by QT. When I attempt to launch the Qt5 configuration tool, I get the following error message - "The QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME environment variable is not set (required value: qt5ct)." Digging further into the realms of the internet, most suggestions I found, on how to solve this problem, was to edit the environment file /etc/environment and set the following - QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME=qt5ct However, doing so leads to yet another problem, upon rebooting my laptop, somewhere in the process of setting up the KDE/Plasma desktop the system hangs and becomes completely unresponsive. I have to then reboot to init 3, and edit out this environment variable setting, and reboot again to init 5 to get my desktop back and working again. So, my question dear SuSEites, what do I do now to get the Qt5 configuration tool to work, or more importantly how to I increase the size of the menu fonts in Emacs? SuSE must have it's own way to set up the Qt5 tool and/or set the size of the Emacs toolbar/menu fonts. Can some kind guru shed so light on this dark hole? Thanks as always, in advance... Marc --
Marc Chamberlin via openSUSE Users composed on 2023-11-11 15:26 (UTC-0800):
Operating System: openSUSE Leap 15.4 KDE Plasma Version: 5.24.4 KDE Frameworks Version: 5.90.0 Qt Version: 5.15.2 Kernel Version: 5.14.21-150400.24.88-default (64-bit) Graphics Platform: X11 Processors: 8 ×? Intel®? Core?? i7-6820HK CPU @ 2.70GHz Memory: 31.3 GiB of RAM Graphics Processor: llvmpipe
The above info block has next to nothing useful for diagnosing graphics problems. One possible clue, llvmpipe, suggests possibly your Mesa is broken. Provide input/output from inxi -GSaz --vs as a starting point to catch up on hardware and software, but do it only after first running sudo inxi -U Leap's inxi is ancient and broken. -U gets it current. Visual output from using -U is only useful to /dev/null unless errors are observed. Along with inxi, provide also: xrdb -query | grep dpi xdpyinfo | grep -E 'dimen|ution' sudo zypper se -si Mesa | grep x86 I don't use emacs, so won't be contributing anything specific to its regard. I remember reading long ago that qt5ct can conflict with elements of Plasma. Whether that's still applicable in 15.4's 5.24 I don't know, but this might be the stimulus you need to not wait for official end of life status announcement due soon for 15.4 to get your upgrade to 15.5 done, which will get you to Plasma 5.27. Something that can sometimes clear up random Plasma foibles is logging out of any Plasma session, then emptying all content from ~/.cache/ before logging back into Plasma. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On 11/11/23 16:15, Felix Miata wrote:
Marc Chamberlin via openSUSE Users composed on 2023-11-11 15:26 (UTC-0800):
Operating System: openSUSE Leap 15.4 KDE Plasma Version: 5.24.4 KDE Frameworks Version: 5.90.0 Qt Version: 5.15.2 Kernel Version: 5.14.21-150400.24.88-default (64-bit) Graphics Platform: X11 Processors: 8 ×? Intel®? Core?? i7-6820HK CPU @ 2.70GHz Memory: 31.3 GiB of RAM Graphics Processor: llvmpipe The above info block has next to nothing useful for diagnosing graphics problems. One possible clue, llvmpipe, suggests possibly your Mesa is broken. Provide input/output from
inxi -GSaz --vs
as a starting point to catch up on hardware and software, but do it only after first running
sudo inxi -U
Leap's inxi is ancient and broken. -U gets it current. Visual output from using -U is only useful to /dev/null unless errors are observed.
Thanks Felix for responding, much appreciated. OK this I can do easily, here is the output from inxi, and yes I did the update first -
# inxi -GSaz --vs inxi 3.3.31-00 (2023-11-02) System: Kernel: 5.14.21-150400.24.97-default arch: x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 7.5.0 clocksource: tsc available: hpet,acpi_pm parameters: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-5.14.21-150400.24.97-default root=UUID=6d9d87a2-0e53-4496-ada5-2e373fe23e8c splash=silent resume=/dev/disk/by-uuid/693afb47-fa87-4a7f-8a20-3c1ecbc57288 mitigations=auto quiet Desktop: KDE Plasma v: 5.24.4 tk: Qt v: 5.15.2 wm: kwin_x11 vt: 7 dm: SDDM Distro: openSUSE Leap 15.4 Graphics: Device-1: NVIDIA GK107GL [Quadro K420] driver: nvidia v: 470.223.02 alternate: nouveau,nvidia_drm non-free: N/A status: unknown device ID pcie: gen: 2 speed: 5 GT/s lanes: 16 ports: active: none off: DVI-I-1 empty: DP-1 bus-ID: 03:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:0ff3 class-ID: 0300 Device-2: NVIDIA GK107GL [Quadro K420] driver: nvidia v: 470.223.02 alternate: nouveau,nvidia_drm non-free: N/A status: unknown device ID pcie: gen: 1 speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 16 link-max: gen: 2 speed: 5 GT/s ports: active: none off: DVI-I-2 empty: DP-2 bus-ID: 04:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:0ff3 class-ID: 0300 Device-3: Chicony Gateway Webcam driver: snd-usb-audio,uvcvideo type: USB rev: 2.0 speed: 480 Mb/s lanes: 1 mode: 2.0 bus-ID: 3-14.4:17 chip-ID: 04f2:a133 class-ID: 0102 Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.20.3 with: Xwayland v: 21.1.4 compositor: kwin_x11 driver: X: loaded: nvidia gpu: nvidia,nvidia-nvswitch display-ID: :0 screens: 2 default screen: 0 Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1920x1080 s-dpi: 52 s-size: 938x528mm (36.93x20.79") s-diag: 1076mm (42.38") Monitor-1: DVI-I-1 res: 1920x1080 hz: 60 dpi: 52 size: 930x520mm (36.61x20.47") diag: 1066mm (41.95") modes: N/A Screen-2: 1 s-res: 1920x1080 s-dpi: 69 s-size: 707x392mm (27.83x15.43") s-diag: 808mm (31.83") API: OpenGL v: 4.5.0 compat-v: 4.6.0 vendor: nvidia v: 470.223.02 glx-v: 1.4 direct-render: yes renderer: Quadro K420/PCIe/SSE2 API: Vulkan v: 1.2.133 layers: 1 device: 0 type: discrete-gpu name: Quadro K420 driver: nvidia v: 470.223.02 device-ID: 10de:0ff3 surfaces: xcb,xlib device: 1 type: discrete-gpu name: Quadro K420 driver: nvidia v: 470.223.02 device-ID: 10de:0ff3 surfaces: xcb,xlib API: EGL Message: EGL data requires eglinfo. Check --recommends.
Along with inxi, provide also:
xrdb -query | grep dpi xdpyinfo | grep -E 'dimen|ution' sudo zypper se -si Mesa | grep x86
And here is the output I got from these incantations -
# xrdb -query | grep dpi No output.
# xdpyinfo | grep -E 'dimen|ution' dimensions: 1920x1080 pixels (938x528 millimeters) resolution: 52x52 dots per inch dimensions: 1920x1080 pixels (707x392 millimeters) resolution: 69x70 dots per inch
# zypper se -si Mesa | grep x86 i | Mesa | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-demo-x | package | 8.3.0-1.33 | x86_64 | Main Repository i | Mesa-dri | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-dri-devel | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-dri-nouveau | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-gallium | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-KHR-devel | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-libEGL-devel | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-libEGL1 | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-libGL-devel | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-libGL1 | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-libglapi0 | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 i | Mesa-libva | package | 21.2.4-150400.68.12.1 | x86_64 | Update repository with updates from SUSE Linux Enterprise 15
I don't use emacs, so won't be contributing anything specific to its regard.
I remember reading long ago that qt5ct can conflict with elements of Plasma. Whether that's still applicable in 15.4's 5.24 I don't know, but this might be the stimulus you need to not wait for official end of life status announcement due soon for 15.4 to get your upgrade to 15.5 done, which will get you to Plasma 5.27. I do plan to upgrade our systems soon, it is in our schedule to do so... Something that can sometimes clear up random Plasma foibles is logging out of any Plasma session, then emptying all content from ~/.cache/ before logging back into Plasma. No joy, I did this by rebooting to init 3, logging in, and clearing out the ~/.cache directory. HTHs, Marc...
*"The Truth is out there" - Spooky* -- *_ _ . . . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ . . . . _ _ . _ _ _ . . . . _ _ . _ . . _ . _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ . _ . * Computers: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the user Marc. His mission: to explore strange new hardware. To seek out new software and new applications. To boldly go where no Marc has gone before! (/This email is digitally signed. My public key for sending encrypted email to me can be found at - https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=marc@domesweetdome.us.com or just ask me for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand, no worries, just ignore it and/or ask me to explain it further./)
Marc Chamberlin composed on 2023-11-12 16:30 (UTC-0800): (exerpts only follow)
Device-1: NVIDIA GK107GL [Quadro K420] driver: nvidia v: 470.223.02 Device-2: NVIDIA GK107GL [Quadro K420] driver: nvidia v: 470.223.02 Screen-1: 0 s-res: 1920x1080 s-dpi: 52 s-size: 938x528mm (36.93x20.79") s-diag: 1076mm (42.38") Monitor-1: DVI-I-1 res: 1920x1080 hz: 60 dpi: 52 size: 930x520mm (36.61x20.47") diag: 1066mm (41.95") modes: N/A Screen-2: 1 s-res: 1920x1080 s-dpi: 69 s-size: 707x392mm (27.83x15.43") s-diag: 808mm (31.83")
# xrdb -query | grep dpi No output.
# xdpyinfo | grep -E 'dimen|ution' dimensions: 1920x1080 pixels (938x528 millimeters) resolution: 52x52 dots per inch dimensions: 1920x1080 pixels (707x392 millimeters) resolution: 69x70 dots per inch
All the dpi/dots per inch and mm sizes are showing unusual values. The big mm numbers suggest you're using big TVs rather than computer displays: 43" and 32". The small dpi/dots per inch numbers suggest trouble with mousetype. Because you're using (dual) NVidias with proprietary drivers, I can't help with specifics, but your problem should be solvable by fixing NVidia graphics configuration so that apps are seeing DPI numbers anywhere from 96 on up into the 200s, depending on what the actual physical display sizes are, and your viewing distance. Fonts can be expected to be trouble when DPI is less than 96 even on ancient hardware. If high density displays are in use, then it needs usually to be higher. If you can get DPI settings to reasonable values, you should have no need for qt5ct. Reasonable quality fonts are best gained by DPI values that are a multiple of 12 that is no lower than 96. Systemsetting5 provides a fonts setting to force DPI to a specific value. If you weren't using NVidia drivers, I'd try that before anything else. The result of using it will cause output from xrdb -query | grep dpi to be non-null. However with NVidia drivers, I can only suggest to use the NVidia settings tool to try setting DPI before trying anything else. Most anything else I might have suggested won't apply because of the NVidia drivers X configuration overriding of normal X automagic configuration and/or other potential tweaks, one of which is simply: (e.g.) xrandr --dpi 120 It only applies to apps opened after it is used, and doesn't stick across sessions. If needed, it needs to be in a startup file, so that it can apply to the desktop itself. Not all apps pay attention to it, but those are rather uncommon any more. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
From: Marc Chamberlin via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 15:26:09 -0800 Hello SuSE universe - I am running OpenSuSE 15.4 x64 with the KDE/Plasma desktop . . . So, my question dear SuSEites, what do I do now to get the Qt5 configuration tool to work, or more importantly how to I increase the size of the menu fonts in Emacs? SuSE must have it's own way to set up the Qt5 tool and/or set the size of the Emacs toolbar/menu fonts. Can some kind guru shed so light on this dark hole? Thanks as always, in advance... Looking at the output of "ldd /usr/bln/emacs-x11" and "rpm -q --requires emacs-x11", it looks like the emacs binary (for 15.5, though it should be no different) was built using the Athena toolkit, which seems to use Xresources [1]. E.g., from my ~/.Xdefaults file: Emacs.geometry: 81x51 Emacs.menuBar: off Emacs.toolBar: off -- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/ [1] Athena is pretty old, and is considered semi-obsolescent within the Emacs project.
On 11/11/23 16:25, Bob Rogers via openSUSE Users wrote:
From: Marc Chamberlin via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 15:26:09 -0800
Hello SuSE universe - I am running OpenSuSE 15.4 x64 with the KDE/Plasma desktop . . .
So, my question dear SuSEites, what do I do now to get the Qt5 configuration tool to work, or more importantly how to I increase the size of the menu fonts in Emacs? SuSE must have it's own way to set up the Qt5 tool and/or set the size of the Emacs toolbar/menu fonts. Can some kind guru shed so light on this dark hole? Thanks as always, in advance...
Looking at the output of "ldd /usr/bln/emacs-x11" and "rpm -q --requires emacs-x11", it looks like the emacs binary (for 15.5, though it should be no different) was built using the Athena toolkit, which seems to use Xresources [1]. E.g., from my ~/.Xdefaults file:
Emacs.geometry: 81x51 Emacs.menuBar: off Emacs.toolBar: off
-- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/
[1] Athena is pretty old, and is considered semi-obsolescent within the Emacs project.
Thanks Bob for your thoughts, I am gonna assume you were speaking to other gurus about Emacs, cuz most of what you said was above my own pay grade, so I didn't follow you. What is Athena? Marc... --
From: Marc Chamberlin via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 16:38:14 -0800 On 11/11/23 16:25, Bob Rogers via openSUSE Users wrote:
From: Marc Chamberlin via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 15:26:09 -0800
Hello SuSE universe - I am running OpenSuSE 15.4 x64 with the KDE/Plasma desktop . . .
Looking at the output of "ldd /usr/bln/emacs-x11" and "rpm -q --requires emacs-x11", it looks like the emacs binary (for 15.5, though it should be no different) was built using the Athena toolkit, which seems to use Xresources [1]. E.g., from my ~/.Xdefaults file:
Emacs.geometry: 81x51 Emacs.menuBar: off Emacs.toolBar: off
-- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/
[1] Athena is pretty old, and is considered semi-obsolescent within the Emacs project.
Thanks Bob for your thoughts, I am gonna assume you were speaking to other gurus about Emacs, cuz most of what you said was above my own pay grade . . . Sorry; I am a long-time and heavy user of emacs, but I build my own, so I'm not very familiar with the version that's shipped with openSUSE. On top of that, I don't use the menus, so I had to poke around a bit in order to figure this out. So I wanted to state what I had learned and how I had learned it precisely, in case I made a misteak. . . .so I didn't follow you. What is Athena? Marc... In a nutshell, Project Athena [1] is where X11 came from. X Athena Widgets aka Xaw [2] is an X11 toolkit developed by Project Athena to provide menus and such; the openSUSE emacs was compiled to use it instead of Qt (it's a compile-time option). openSUSE provides Xaw via the libXaw3d package, which is a somewhat updated version published by X.org [3], the current X11 maintainer. But as far as I can tell, since the original libXaw was created pretty much at the dawn of time as far as X11 is concerned, it only uses the original text-based customization scheme, where you write key/value pairs in your ~/.Xdefaults file in order to control it, as illustrated above. This is read into the X server at startup, or refreshed by doing xrdb -merge ~/.Xdefaults if you want to update in the middle of a session. Unfortunately, in order to use this you have to know what names and values to write there, and I've been unable to find any user documentation anywhere. So I think your best bet would be to submit a bug report. If there's some valid reason the powers-that-be have to persist in building emacs with libXaw3d (and I have to wonder what that could be), they ought to be able to tell you how to customize it. -- Bob [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Athena [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Athena_Widgets [3] https://www.x.org/wiki/guide/client-ecosystem/#index3h3
Hello, In the Message; Subject : Re: Qt5 Configuration Tool is not configured correctly. Message-ID : <25937.33360.49629.790828@orion.rgrjr.com> Date & Time: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 17:56:32 -0800 [BR] == Bob Rogers via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> has written: [...] BR> the openSUSE emacs was compiled to use it instead of Qt (it's a BR> compile-time option). If you have a build method that uses Qt (Qt5 or Qt6), I would love to know. Please let me know what I should look for. BR> This is read into the X server at startup, or refreshed by doing BR> xrdb -merge ~/.Xdefaults We usually use xrdb with .Xresources and have never seen it with .Xdefaults..... (_ _? Anyway, I just checked and it looks like Mac uses Emacs 29.1, in which case my method works. Sure enough. we can write the Emacs font settings in Xresouce, then add the 'xrdb -merge ~/.Xreesouces ' setting to the .bashrc etc., but this is not the way to go. Regards. --- ┏━━┓彡 野宮 賢 mail-to: nomiya @ lake.dti.ne.jp ┃＼／彡 ┗━━┛ "Companies have come to view generative AI as a kind of monster that must be fed at all costs―even if it isn’t always clear what exactly that data is needed for or what those future AI systems might end up doing." -- Generative AI Is Making Companies Even More Thirsty for Your Data --
From: Masaru Nomiya via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 12:38:44 +0900 Hello, In the Message; Subject : Re: Qt5 Configuration Tool is not configured correctly. Message-ID : <25937.33360.49629.790828@orion.rgrjr.com> Date & Time: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 17:56:32 -0800 [BR] == Bob Rogers via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> has written: [...] BR> the openSUSE emacs was compiled to use it instead of Qt (it's a BR> compile-time option). If you have a build method that uses Qt (Qt5 or Qt6), I would love to know. Please let me know what I should look for. In the emacs source tree, the output of running "./configure --help" includes the following: --with-x-toolkit=KIT use an X toolkit (KIT one of: yes or gtk, gtk2, gtk3, lucid or athena, motif, no) So I gather that Emacs does not support using any version of Qt. (Which is what I had recalled.) BR> This is read into the X server at startup, or refreshed by doing BR> xrdb -merge ~/.Xdefaults We usually use xrdb with .Xresources and have never seen it with .Xdefaults..... (_ _? In my home directory, .Xresources is a symlink to .Xdefaults. I remember it was originally called .Xresources, and I was surprised when I noticed that it changed. The .Xresources symlink is dated 20-Feb-17, when according to my notes I did a "zypper update", so I think that's when my configuration got "modernized." Anyway, I just checked and it looks like Mac uses Emacs 29.1, in which case my method works. Sure enough. we can write the Emacs font settings in Xresouce, then add the 'xrdb -merge ~/.Xreesouces ' setting to the .bashrc etc., but this is not the way to go. There may still be GUI apps available for updating .Xresources files. But I agree; there's ought to be a better way. -- Bob
Hello, In the Message; Subject : Qt5 Configuration Tool is not configured correctly. Message-ID : <c75e3946-7b85-4d64-920a-5e958704d559@marcchamberlin.com> Date & Time: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 15:26:09 -0800 [MC] == Marc Chamberlin via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> has written: [...] MC> The font size of the Emacs menus is way to small for this old man MC> to read, so I thought to try and figure out how to increase MC> it. I'm using emacs for a long, long time. MC> Internet searching led me to believe that the font size for the MC> Emacs editor is controlled by QT. [...] I have never heard of such a thing. First of all, Emacs does not require Qt5. I have a 4K UHD display (3840x2160) and the text on Emacs is too small as it is, so I set the following in .emacs to make it more comfortable. (let ((size (if (>= (x-display-pixel-height) 1100) 15.5 12)))) (condition-case err (let ((myfont (format "VL Gothic-%d" size)))) (set-frame-font myfont)) (add-to-list 'initial-frame-alist `(font . ,myfont)))) (error (message "%s" err)))) Where, 'VL Gothic' is a true type font containing Japanese characters. In your Emacs, you can set it with M-x customize-face, I suppose. Rgards. --- ┏━━┓彡 野宮 賢 mail-to: nomiya @ lake.dti.ne.jp ┃＼／彡 ┗━━┛ "Companies have come to view generative AI as a kind of monster that must be fed at all costs―even if it isn’t always clear what exactly that data is needed for or what those future AI systems might end up doing." -- Generative AI Is Making Companies Even More Thirsty for Your Data --
Hello, In the Message; Subject : Re: Qt5 Configuration Tool is not configured correctly. Message-ID : <87pm0fd4za.wl-nomiya@lake.dti.ne.jp> Date & Time: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 12:29:13 +0900 [MN] == Masaru Nomiya via openSUSE Users <users@lists.opensuse.org> has written: [...] MN> In your Emacs, you can set it with M-x customize-face, I suppose. I write down the procedure just in case; 1. start Emacs 2. Run M-x customize-face, then enter default 3. Enter the name of the truetype font to be used in Font Family field, and the name of the manufacturer of the font to be used in Font Foundry filed. 5, Press 'Apply and Save' button, then exit Emacs. This determines the font size and the width of Emacs, which is 80 characters wide in that font, which can be viewed by pressing M-x describe-font. I set the height of Emacs to be too large, as shown below. (if (boundp 'window-system) (setq initial-frame-alist (append (list '(cursor-color . "#00cc00") '(cursor-type . box)) '(menu-bar-lines . 1) '(vertical-scroll-bars . right) '(width . 82) ;; Emacs width extended to 82 '(height . 55) ;; Height of Emacs '(top . 10) ;; disply margin from top edge '(left . 10) ;; display margin from left edge ) initial-frame-alist))) HTHs. Regards. --- ┏━━┓彡 野宮 賢 mail-to: nomiya @ lake.dti.ne.jp ┃＼／彡 ┗━━┛ "Bill! You married with Computer. Not with Me!" "No....., with money."
participants (4)
-
Bob Rogers -
Felix Miata -
Marc Chamberlin -
Masaru Nomiya