[opensuse] Stability - 11.1 vs 11.2
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE. It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1 Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1 True ? -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Duaine Hechler <dahechler@att.net> [06-18-10 19:38]:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE.
It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1
Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1
True ?
No! Not from my experience, but there is no factual evidence I have seen either way presented here or .... I just rebooted to upgrade kernel after 63 days and I tax my system considerable, server, graphics editing, burning cd/dvd's, .... And I have a lot of "cutting edge" repos -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/19/2010 01:41 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Duaine Hechler <dahechler@att.net> [06-18-10 19:38]:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE.
It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1
Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1
True ?
No! Not from my experience, but there is no factual evidence I have seen either way presented here or ....
I just rebooted to upgrade kernel after 63 days and I tax my system considerable, server, graphics editing, burning cd/dvd's, .... And I have a lot of "cutting edge" repos
I concur, I found 11.2 much more usable then 11.1. In fact I used 11.0 before 11.2 became available since 11.1 had to many issues. Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/18/2010 07:46 PM, Frans de Boer wrote:
On 06/19/2010 01:41 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* ... I concur, I found 11.2 much more usable then 11.1.
Same here. 11.2 hasn't been flawless, but it's certainly no worse than other versions, and it seems better to me. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-19 01:36, Duaine Hechler wrote:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE.
It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1
Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1
True ?
Not in my experience. I had to skip 11.1. I'musing both 11.0 and 11.2, but not 11.1. However, I don't use KDE 4. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwcDX0ACgkQU92UU+smfQXkCwCfefXv7VlLsPyDs669Sr49h0e8 DKQAn0c5XPW15geR7Sh2/wUyiZAnplrk =MM4G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/18 18:36 (GMT-0500) Duaine Hechler composed:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE.
It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1
Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1
True ?
Which KDEs? If you're comparing 11.1/KDE3 to 11.2/KDE4, you're comparing a mature product (KDE3) to an alpha/beta (KDE4). KDE3 is clearly more reliable than the KDE4 that shipped with 11.2. If you're using KDE3 in 11.2, you're using a product that got no material official testing and has no support, clearly not something to expect to be better than the KDE3 that is supported in 11.1. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/19/2010 02:42 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2010/06/18 18:36 (GMT-0500) Duaine Hechler composed:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE.
It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1
Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1
True ?
Which KDEs? If you're comparing 11.1/KDE3 to 11.2/KDE4, you're comparing a mature product (KDE3) to an alpha/beta (KDE4). KDE3 is clearly more reliable than the KDE4 that shipped with 11.2. If you're using KDE3 in 11.2, you're using a product that got no material official testing and has no support, clearly not something to expect to be better than the KDE3 that is supported in 11.1.
I disagree to some extend. KDE4 is already longer out of the beta stage. I am now using the (suse) KDE 4.3.5 and found it stable enough. Enough meaning that I have no crashes or other nasty surprises. But maybe it is either a matter of perception or used applications which causes the various notions. Regards, Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/19 02:52 (GMT+0200) Frans de Boer composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Which KDEs? If you're comparing 11.1/KDE3 to 11.2/KDE4, you're comparing a mature product (KDE3) to an alpha/beta (KDE4). KDE3 is clearly more reliable than the KDE4 that shipped with 11.2. If you're using KDE3 in 11.2, you're using a product that got no material official testing and has no support, clearly not something to expect to be better than the KDE3 that is supported in 11.1.
I disagree to some extend. KDE4 is already longer out of the beta stage.
That's one of the Linux world's best known jokes. Regardless of what they were officially called, 4.0/4.1 were pre-alpha/alpha; 4.2/4.3 were alpha/beta; and 4.4 seems to be RC or close thereto.
I am now using the (suse) KDE 4.3.5 and found it stable enough.
Oh how many machines, at what CPU speeds, with how much RAM? There are so many KDE3 features missing from even KDE 4.4 that it can hardly be considered a replacement for KDE4 no matter the assigned version number, and KDE 4 was certainly even less mature in 11.2's 4.3. Maybe in 4.5 or 4.6 it might reach feature parity, if not stability. Maybe. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 03:24:14 schrieb Felix Miata:
I am now using the (suse) KDE 4.3.5 and found it stable enough.
Oh how many machines, at what CPU speeds, with how much RAM?
KDE4 runs fine on older machines as well, it runs fine on netbooks. And btw the GPU or to be precise the graphics driver's capabilities are one of the major factors on how KDE4 is perceived. And yes, todays software is for recent hardware not oldtimers whose hardware is worse than a mobile phone's from the present. Use old hardware with old software or software that was meant to be for outdated hardware.
There are so many KDE3 features missing from even KDE 4.4 that it can hardly be considered a replacement for KDE4 no matter the assigned version number, and KDE 4 was certainly even less mature in 11.2's 4.3. Maybe in 4.5 or 4.6 it might reach feature parity, if not stability. Maybe.
First, there are so many KDE4 features missing in KDE3 that it can hardly be considered a replacement. Second, while feature x might be crucial for you and thus KDE3 be the right choice for you, most might not need that feature and thus not care about those things that were left behind with KDE3s dead end platform. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
NOBODY has answered my question yet ........... Has anyone installed 11.2 with KDE ? from the base download and be stable - WITHOUT - any updates ??? -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 09:07:48 schrieb Duaine Hechler:
NOBODY has answered my question yet ...........
Has anyone installed 11.2 with KDE ? from the base download and be stable - WITHOUT - any updates ???
Frans de Boer has done so. But obviously you do need the updates from the official repo, i.e. security kernel updates etc. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 09:07:48 schrieb Duaine Hechler:
NOBODY has answered my question yet ...........
Has anyone installed 11.2 with KDE ? from the base download and be stable - WITHOUT - any updates ???
Frans de Boer has done so. But obviously you do need the updates from the official repo, i.e. security kernel updates etc.
Sven
OK - so far - ONE -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 09:26:03 schrieb Duaine Hechler:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 09:07:48 schrieb Duaine Hechler:
NOBODY has answered my question yet ...........
Has anyone installed 11.2 with KDE ? from the base download and be stable - WITHOUT - any updates ???
Frans de Boer has done so. But obviously you do need the updates from the official repo, i.e. security kernel updates etc.
OK - so far - ONE
Indeed, in this thread, and none but you that experienced the opposite. But lots that claim it is more stable in general. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 09:26, Duaine Hechler wrote:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 09:07:48 schrieb Duaine Hechler:
NOBODY has answered my question yet ...........
Has anyone installed 11.2 with KDE ? from the base download and be stable - WITHOUT - any updates ???
Frans de Boer has done so. But obviously you do need the updates from the official repo, i.e. security kernel updates etc.
Sven
OK - so far - ONE
I'm a bit puzzled by this.... you want to install openSUSE (any version) and NOT run the standard updates post-install? Why in the world would you not want to run the updates? I haven't had a single openSUSE install in years that hasn't benefited a LOT from the post-install updates. For 11.2 + KDE4 you basically have to run the updates for at least KDE4 since the KDE4 with the default install is rather buggy to say the least. The KDE4 build on the 11.2 iso... workes, but it's massively better with, as a bare minimum, an update to the 4.3.5 release - what you get if you do a post-install update using the standard repositories. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-19 11:17, C wrote:
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 09:26, Duaine Hechler wrote:
OK - so far - ONE
I'm a bit puzzled by this.... you want to install openSUSE (any version) and NOT run the standard updates post-install? Why in the world would you not want to run the updates? I haven't had a single openSUSE install in years that hasn't benefited a LOT from the post-install updates.
If you mean the "updates" repository, yes, absolutely. If you mean updating from "other" repos, results differ a lot. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwcjBYACgkQU92UU+smfQWFZQCghiG8Pa5I48hqhzPnGndZxjgi nXYAn0ekJW9yZL5JQprvXRfZB6JYgN9c =f9In -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 11:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2010-06-19 11:17, C wrote:
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 09:26, Duaine Hechler wrote:
OK - so far - ONE
I'm a bit puzzled by this.... you want to install openSUSE (any version) and NOT run the standard updates post-install? Why in the world would you not want to run the updates? I haven't had a single openSUSE install in years that hasn't benefited a LOT from the post-install updates.
If you mean the "updates" repository, yes, absolutely.
If you mean updating from "other" repos, results differ a lot.
Yes, I mean just the standard updates repos. If you install 11.2 and do a standard update you get a big update to KDE4 that brings you up to 4.3.5... that KDE4 build is a LOT better than the basic one you get off the DVD ISO.
From what Duaine was saying it appeared that the system in question was not updated.. ie the standard post install updates were not applied...
C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2010-06-19 at 02:07 -0500, Duaine Hechler wrote:
NOBODY has answered my question yet ........... Has anyone installed 11.2 with KDE ? from the base download and be stable - WITHOUT - any updates ???
I hope not; systems should be updated. "zypper up" Its easy. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-19 13:55, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Sat, 2010-06-19 at 02:07 -0500, Duaine Hechler wrote:
NOBODY has answered my question yet ........... Has anyone installed 11.2 with KDE ? from the base download and be stable - WITHOUT - any updates ???
I hope not; systems should be updated.
"zypper up"
Its easy.
Actually, it is "zypper patch". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwcxHAACgkQU92UU+smfQWD8QCfZjjTMKqxtPZiXKsWTR8p25s1 mukAn06K+ojpWdEx63CBOAtqR2QOaZNY =NM31 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/19 08:40 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Oh how many machines, at what CPU speeds, with how much RAM?
KDE4 runs fine on older machines as well, it runs fine on netbooks. And btw the GPU or to be precise the graphics driver's capabilities are one of the major factors on how KDE4 is perceived. And yes, todays software is for recent hardware not oldtimers whose hardware is worse than a mobile phone's from the present. Use old hardware with old software or software that was meant to be for outdated hardware.
Not everyone can afford to replace working hardware. Many who can instead choose to avoid that ecologically bankrupt practice. OTOH, for security reasons, not upgrading OS and software periodically is similarly poor practice. All too often "outdated" software isn't really outdated but rather mostly has unfixed bugs fixed in the subsequent version(s). The single program I spend the most time using was last released more than 13 years ago, as it has no suitable upgrade path I've been able to find, and I don't need but one (non-crucial) feature it doesn't have.
There are so many KDE3 features missing from even KDE 4.4 that it can hardly be considered a replacement for KDE4 no matter the assigned version number, and KDE 4 was certainly even less mature in 11.2's 4.3. Maybe in 4.5 or 4.6 it might reach feature parity, if not stability. Maybe.
First, there are so many KDE4 features missing in KDE3 that it can hardly be considered a replacement.
I've yet to find that I can recall more than one KDE4 feature without a KDE3 equivalent that I wouldn't rather live without. As of the current Factory version there's still no select list for adjusting panel height. The panel still randomly rearranges itself when attempting to change its height by dragging, and defaults to an inanely short height on high resolution screens. Application launcher settings window opens still come out with window too short to fit even half its content, failing to remember its size or position from last close. MC and root sessions are still missing from the default Konsole main menu. Konsole still defaults to a non-scalable font that fails to adapt to an appropriately larger size according to actual DPI on high resolution displays. The Klipper icon in the tray fails to identify itself on hover. There's more, but I have better things to do than catalog shortcomings of a supposedly "GA" DTE product. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 10:22:57 schrieb Felix Miata:
On 2010/06/19 08:40 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Oh how many machines, at what CPU speeds, with how much RAM?
KDE4 runs fine on older machines as well, it runs fine on netbooks. And btw the GPU or to be precise the graphics driver's capabilities are one of the major factors on how KDE4 is perceived. And yes, todays software is for recent hardware not oldtimers whose hardware is worse than a mobile phone's from the present. Use old hardware with old software or software that was meant to be for outdated hardware.
Not everyone can afford to replace working hardware. Many who can instead choose to avoid that ecologically bankrupt practice.
Hm, AFAIK today's CPUs waste less power than those from a few years ago, same for hard disks, just as one example. So ecologically old hardware might even be more harmful. Same for heavy metal usage in hardware components.
OTOH, for security reasons, not upgrading OS and software periodically is similarly poor practice. All too often "outdated" software isn't really outdated but rather mostly has unfixed bugs fixed in the subsequent version(s). The single program I spend the most time using was last released more than 13 years ago, as it has no suitable upgrade path I've been able to find, and I don't need but one (non-crucial) feature it doesn't have.
Fair enough, as I said, there is a product for every piece of hardware. If you want to use old hardware pick a product that suits those needs but don't claim that a product that works very well on recent hardware is bad just because it cares more about today and the future than more than 5 years ago. KDE ran fine on my Athlon 1400MHz, I don't even remember how old that piece of hardware was.
There are so many KDE3 features missing from even KDE 4.4 that it can hardly be considered a replacement for KDE4 no matter the assigned version number, and KDE 4 was certainly even less mature in 11.2's 4.3. Maybe in 4.5 or 4.6 it might reach feature parity, if not stability. Maybe.
First, there are so many KDE4 features missing in KDE3 that it can hardly be considered a replacement.
I've yet to find that I can recall more than one KDE4 feature without a KDE3 equivalent that I wouldn't rather live without.
Exactly, point taken, _you_. But do not generalise that.
As of the current Factory version there's still no select list for adjusting panel height. The panel still randomly rearranges itself when attempting to change its height by dragging, and defaults to an inanely short height on high resolution screens.
The default panel height is done by openSUSE AFAIK. So this is not even a KDE thing but branding.
Application launcher settings window opens still come out with window too short to fit even half its content, failing to remember its size or position from last close.
Do you mean kickoff? It does remember its size here. And what do you mean with position? It is attached to the icon. If you move the icon, it moves as well.
MC and root sessions are still missing from the default Konsole main menu.
Create them and submit them to openSUSE to include them in the package?
Konsole still defaults to a non-scalable font that fails to adapt to an appropriately larger size according to actual DPI on high resolution displays.
Does it not use whatever you tell it to use in systemsettings > fonts > fixed font?
The Klipper icon in the tray fails to identify itself on hover. There's more, but I have better things to do than catalog shortcomings of a supposedly "GA" DTE product.
Luckily I don't remember all the KDE3 bugs I got used to and thus felt "alright". I use Factory and somehow I can do my work without any annoyances. But then I do not resize my panel every other day. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-19 10:52, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 10:22:57 schrieb Felix Miata:
On 2010/06/19 08:40 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Oh how many machines, at what CPU speeds, with how much RAM?
KDE4 runs fine on older machines as well, it runs fine on netbooks. And btw the GPU or to be precise the graphics driver's capabilities are one of the major factors on how KDE4 is perceived. And yes, todays software is for recent hardware not oldtimers whose hardware is worse than a mobile phone's from the present. Use old hardware with old software or software that was meant to be for outdated hardware.
One of the strong points of Linux was that it could be used on older hardware, extending the life of those machines. You are negating that goal.
Not everyone can afford to replace working hardware. Many who can instead choose to avoid that ecologically bankrupt practice.
Not forgetting that often those old machines are donated; to charities, poorer countries, etc.
Hm, AFAIK today's CPUs waste less power than those from a few years ago, same for hard disks, just as one example. So ecologically old hardware might even be more harmful. Same for heavy metal usage in hardware components.
The manufacturing of one cpu is always worse than running the existing hardware. You may save power when using it, but you need a lot of power to build it. It might have less harmful materials, but that will always be worse than simply not making the machine and using the older one (till it fails), which is already built and the damage (in materials) is already committed. Same goes for cars, washing machines, whatever. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwcixcACgkQU92UU+smfQXbpwCfX5GVz14HmP0ApZ4kPaXh/ebC EE0AnRWjpIB27kO8FqhEYH4KbgigrYhA =ZMkK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 19 June 2010 11:17:11 Carlos E. R. wrote:
One of the strong points of Linux was that it could be used on older hardware, extending the life of those machines. You are negating that goal.
Linux can. You can build a linux that can run on just about any hardware, however weak. That doesn't mean that modern distributions have to aim at the lowest common denominator. Modern distributions that want to lure users away from windows and mac have to use the abilities of modern hardware. People who have bought an 8 core super machine with the latest graphics card do not want to run something that was optimised for a 286 anno 1980 with CGA graphics Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2010-06-19 at 11:23 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 19 June 2010 11:17:11 Carlos E. R. wrote:
One of the strong points of Linux was that it could be used on older hardware, extending the life of those machines. You are negating that goal. Linux can. You can build a linux that can run on just about any hardware, however weak.
Exactly. There are distributions specifically for that niche. And it is just that - a niche. Most users, given a choice, would choose modern hardware and state-of-the-art tools.
That doesn't mean that modern distributions have to aim at the lowest common denominator.
+1 (I'm so terribly sick of this argument; like I should use hobbled old tools on my 6GB i7 so that someone can continue to use their antique computer [while, of course, complaining about how often it crashes]).
Modern distributions that want to lure users away from windows and mac have to use the abilities of modern hardware.
Disagree. Modern distributions want to provide an excellent user experience and facilitate productivity. Lets not cast everything in the light of Windows/Mac evangelism. What the Open Source community does has value on its own.
People who have bought an 8 core super machine with the latest graphics card do not want to run something that was optimised for a 286 anno 1980 with CGA graphics
+1 -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 19 June 2010 13:53:32 Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Disagree. Modern distributions want to provide an excellent user experience and facilitate productivity. Lets not cast everything in the light of Windows/Mac evangelism. What the Open Source community does has value on its own.
Of course, I agree completely. Exploiting the possibilities of modern hardware has to be done even without an interest in expanding market share into the "other side" Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 11:17:11 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2010-06-19 10:52, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 10:22:57 schrieb Felix Miata:
On 2010/06/19 08:40 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Oh how many machines, at what CPU speeds, with how much RAM?
KDE4 runs fine on older machines as well, it runs fine on netbooks. And btw the GPU or to be precise the graphics driver's capabilities are one of the major factors on how KDE4 is perceived. And yes, todays software is for recent hardware not oldtimers whose hardware is worse than a mobile phone's from the present. Use old hardware with old software or software that was meant to be for outdated hardware.
One of the strong points of Linux was that it could be used on older hardware, extending the life of those machines. You are negating that goal.
Nope. First of all, KDE != Linux. Second, KDE4 works on older hardware. But you have to draw a line if you need to focus, i.e. if manpower is restricted. Thus most people create things that fit current needs not those from 10 years ago. So if you want a DE that works on very old hardware, get one that aims at that, KDE4 does not.
Not everyone can afford to replace working hardware. Many who can instead choose to avoid that ecologically bankrupt practice.
Not forgetting that often those old machines are donated; to charities, poorer countries, etc.
So? KDE4 was never meant to run on an OLPC.
Hm, AFAIK today's CPUs waste less power than those from a few years ago, same for hard disks, just as one example. So ecologically old hardware might even be more harmful. Same for heavy metal usage in hardware components.
The manufacturing of one cpu is always worse than running the existing hardware. You may save power when using it, but you need a lot of power to build it. It might have less harmful materials, but that will always be worse than simply not making the machine and using the older one (till it fails), which is already built and the damage (in materials) is already committed.
Same goes for cars, washing machines, whatever.
Starting to save today is always better than starting tomorrow because no matter how long it takes to get back what you invested it will always be one day earlier than if you started tomorrow. And I won't get into details regarding security and comfort, handling of cloths and thus less damage etc. Progress is not a bad thing and progress does involve letting go of some things to gain others. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 11:32, Sven Burmeister wrote:
One of the strong points of Linux was that it could be used on older hardware, extending the life of those machines. You are negating that goal.
Nope. First of all, KDE != Linux. Second, KDE4 works on older hardware. But you have to draw a line if you need to focus, i.e. if manpower is restricted. Thus most people create things that fit current needs not those from 10 years ago. So if you want a DE that works on very old hardware, get one that aims at that, KDE4 does not.
Exactly. If you're running openSUSE 11.2 on low spec or older hardware you don't choose the fanciest highest hardware demand desktop and then complain about it. You match the DE to the hardware. I run XFCE on a low spec machine... works just fine.... latest kernels are no problem and the DE matches the hardware nicely. Running KDE4 on this same machine, while possible, is an exercise in frustration... same with the latest Gnome... those DEs are too much for the hardware. XFCE is a nice match. So.. old machines and old hardware can run the latest Linux just fine... as long as you think a little and match the DE with the hardware. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-19 11:32, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 11:17:11 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2010-06-19 10:52, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 10:22:57 schrieb Felix Miata:
On 2010/06/19 08:40 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Oh how many machines, at what CPU speeds, with how much RAM?
KDE4 runs fine on older machines as well, it runs fine on netbooks. And btw the GPU or to be precise the graphics driver's capabilities are one of the major factors on how KDE4 is perceived. And yes, todays software is for recent hardware not oldtimers whose hardware is worse than a mobile phone's from the present. Use old hardware with old software or software that was meant to be for outdated hardware.
One of the strong points of Linux was that it could be used on older hardware, extending the life of those machines. You are negating that goal.
Nope. First of all, KDE != Linux.
I know. But I'm not focussing on kde only. You said "todays software is for recent hardware", which is a generalization :-)
Not forgetting that often those old machines are donated; to charities, poorer countries, etc.
So? KDE4 was never meant to run on an OLPC.
Then maintain KDE 3 ;-)
Same goes for cars, washing machines, whatever.
Starting to save today is always better than starting tomorrow because no matter how long it takes to get back what you invested it will always be one day earlier than if you started tomorrow.
And I won't get into details regarding security and comfort, handling of cloths and thus less damage etc. Progress is not a bad thing and progress does involve letting go of some things to gain others.
By all means, make new, better, hardware. But do not argue to replace existing, working hardware with newer hardware for ecological reasons, because they don't hold. For example, the energy cost of making the iron in the box is, I understand, way larger than the energy it will ever consume while running. It starts with a foundry... You can argue many reasons, but overall energy saving is not usually a valid one. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwcw+kACgkQU92UU+smfQUzkwCeIajtwJAv0atWo0RC/8WK426+ DrUAn11mfxFE542opnPiMZRLuA0Njl7+ =xwLb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote: <snip>
Not forgetting that often those old machines are donated; to charities, poorer countries, etc.
So? KDE4 was never meant to run on an OLPC.
Then maintain KDE 3 ;-)
You are aware its still packaged for 11.2 and I assume 11.3 will follow: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Repositories#KDE_3.5.10 But even KDE 3.5 was not intended for a netbook or olpc class machine I don't think. OTOH, 11.3 is going to have a new entire desktop option, LXDE. It is a lightweight desktop that might fit that class machine. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/19/2010 09:19 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ...
So? KDE4 was never meant to run on an OLPC.
Then maintain KDE 3 ;-)
God, I hope not! Diverting scarce resources to an ancient, unmaintainable software project to keep some Luddites happy would mean I likely never get a complete, clean kde 4. jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/19 11:32 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Starting to save today is always better than starting tomorrow because no matter how long it takes to get back what you invested it will always be one day earlier than if you started tomorrow.
That's fine for total saving. Including also all forms of landfill/transportation/recycling costs one might discover an unsupportable cost/benefit ratio. Spending dollars only to save pennies is typically foolish.
Progress is not a bad thing and progress does involve letting go of some things to gain others.
This is true, but don't confuse progress with change. They are not interchangeable. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2010-06-19 at 10:19 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2010/06/19 11:32 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Starting to save today is always better than starting tomorrow because no matter how long it takes to get back what you invested it will always be one day earlier than if you started tomorrow. That's fine for total saving. Including also all forms of landfill/transportation/recycling costs one might discover an unsupportable cost/benefit ratio. Spending dollars only to save pennies is typically foolish.
But spending dollars to save *TIME* [and equivalent frustration] is always a worthwhile; and if I save a bit of power, that's just an extra benefit.
Progress is not a bad thing and progress does involve letting go of some things to gain others. This is true, but don't confuse progress with change.
Agree. But replace a P4 system with an i7 system and there is no confusing that for mere change; its *progress* when procedures that took minutes complete in seconds.
They are not interchangeable.
Nope. But newer systems are clearly progress. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/19 11:03 (GMT-0400) Adam Tauno Williams composed:
But spending dollars to save *TIME* [and equivalent frustration] is always a worthwhile;
_Not_ always, not when supply of time is abundant and/or time saved is contextually small, or when initial investment funding is limited.
Agree. But replace a P4 system with an i7 system and there is no
Likely the preponderance of P4 users are not i7 candidates at this point in time.
confusing that for mere change; its *progress* when procedures that took minutes complete in seconds.
I can't imagine a typical I/O bound process on a Cedar Mill P4 taking magnitudes less time on an i7 absent costly I/O cost premium to thwart the bottleneck, which would be comparing beets to raisins. For a process taking mere seconds on an i7 using mainstream I/O systems to take minutes I'd expect the elder CPU to be sub-1GHz or a first generation Duron or P3 Celeron or slower, and its HD bus to be sub-ATA3. Comparing differences of bazillions of megaflops among different CPUs instead of the much more common I/O bound operations is sales speak, not practical sense spoken by cost/benefit analysts. When funds are unlimited, sure more is better, but mainly only out of control governments and special situations have that, not mainstream individuals and businesses.
They are not interchangeable.
Nope. But newer systems are clearly progress.
I can assure you plenty of cost accountants would disagree. Newer systems are dissipating more heat, not what I call progress when paying for more dead dinosaurs to be consumed to run both puters and air conditioners. Who's paying your electric and hardware bills? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2010-06-19 at 12:51 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2010/06/19 11:03 (GMT-0400) Adam Tauno Williams composed:
But spending dollars to save *TIME* [and equivalent frustration] is always a worthwhile; _Not_ always, not when supply of time is abundant and/or time saved is contextually small, or when initial investment funding is limited.
Wow, abundant time. I don't even know how to respond to that. It is more cost-effective to use a slower computer than a faster one? Eh...
Agree. But replace a P4 system with an i7 system and there is no Likely the preponderance of P4 users are not i7 candidates at this point in time.
Well, Macs are eating up market share (and they are all i5/i7s). And PC sales... they don't suck. Analysts [IDC] project a 10% increase in units shipped for 2010. Others [Cohen] estimate as high as 20%. So somebody disagrees with you.
confusing that for mere change; its *progress* when procedures that took minutes complete in seconds. I can't imagine a typical I/O bound process on a Cedar Mill P4 taking magnitudes less time on an i7 absent costly I/O cost premium to thwart the bottleneck, which would be comparing beets to raisins. For a process taking mere seconds on an i7 using mainstream I/O systems to take minutes I'd expect the elder CPU to be sub-1GHz or a first generation Duron or P3 Celeron or slower, and its HD bus to be sub-ATA3.
Bah. I've been a corporate UNIX and network admin for ~15 years. These arguments are always trumpeted by the anti-progress crowd [and they appear technically sound]. But its crap. New systems arrive and tests show they smash the old system for actual real-world performance. The processors are faster, the disks are faster, the busses are faster, the chipsets are more efficient, and the firmware smarter. Not to mention more RAM per adjusted $1. New wins, every single time, and always by a easily measurable margin.
Comparing differences of bazillions of megaflops among different CPUs instead of the much more common I/O bound operations is sales speak, not practical
Nope, its 100% practical. Whether it is a server running an RDBMS system or mom's PC sorting 5,000 photos or a workstation editing an 18 chapter manual - the performance difference is huge and very real.
sense spoken by cost/benefit analysts. When funds are unlimited, sure more is better, but mainly only out of control governments and special situations have that, not mainstream individuals and businesses.
Seriously? Your political anti-government bent doesn't have anything to do with the argument. It is more convincing to readers if you leave that out. Mainstream individuals and business benefit significantly from current hardware. A Gartner study showed that the single biggest improvement for office worker productivity - give them a second monitor [more hardware]. At which point, of course, they will be running more applications concurrently....
They are not interchangeable. Nope. But newer systems are clearly progress. I can assure you plenty of cost accountants would disagree.
Ok, and I can assure you that many don't.
Newer systems are dissipating more heat, not what I call progress when paying for more dead dinosaurs to be consumed to run both puters and air conditioners. Who's paying your electric and hardware bills?
Bills are paid via the sale of the worker's productivity. And modern hardware can successfully suspend/hibernate - which older hardware *very* often fails to do. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-19 19:55, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Sat, 2010-06-19 at 12:51 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
And modern hardware can successfully suspend/hibernate - which older hardware *very* often fails to do.
I don't see why. I have both an old machine (P-IV) and a new machine (core 2 quad). Both hibernate fine. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwdEfsACgkQU92UU+smfQVUIwCgjQxfRcx4+h1pthrumFfsZqO6 X+sAn0ZjATBVi7rlF0X37phHDdXsnQUd =jQZI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-19 18:51, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2010/06/19 11:03 (GMT-0400) Adam Tauno Williams composed:
But spending dollars to save *TIME* [and equivalent frustration] is always a worthwhile;
_Not_ always, not when supply of time is abundant and/or time saved is contextually small, or when initial investment funding is limited.
Agree. But replace a P4 system with an i7 system and there is no
Likely the preponderance of P4 users are not i7 candidates at this point in time.
confusing that for mere change; its *progress* when procedures that took minutes complete in seconds.
I can't imagine a typical I/O bound process on a Cedar Mill P4 taking magnitudes less time on an i7 absent costly I/O cost premium to thwart the bottleneck, which would be comparing beets to raisins. For a process taking mere seconds on an i7 using mainstream I/O systems to take minutes I'd expect the elder CPU to be sub-1GHz or a first generation Duron or P3 Celeron or slower, and its HD bus to be sub-ATA3.
I have both a slow, ten years old, P-IV, and a new core 2 quad, so I can compare. I can see differences in speed, mostly due to slow memory and bus (it was already bad when I bought it), and disk. The new machine is certainly more comfortable, but the speed difference isn't often more than twice. The old machine has "only" 1 gigabyte ram and it shows with big programs. There are exceptions. Video conversion with ffmpeg can take, literally, days on the old machine, and at most an hour on the new one. But if you work, say, editing a large file with oowrite, the difference is not that easy to notice. The end result is that an old machine is quite useful, except for demanding tasks. It just needs software that is maintained (kept free of security bugs). There are many valid reasons to upgrade hardware, but saving energy is not one. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwdFjUACgkQU92UU+smfQWECACfTvoDoFLXC+3uEIChUm3etELC HJIAnAgi31d/IZ9fxFkRuntRB1l6X5oe =ChIF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/19 10:52 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Not everyone can afford to replace working hardware. Many who can instead choose to avoid that ecologically bankrupt practice.
Hm, AFAIK today's CPUs waste less power than those from a few years ago,
Don't forget GPUs. Last I checked, current production desktop GPUs all required active cooling, quite unlike most I'm using. Similar for older CPUs, which generally require considerably smaller heat sinks and fans to keep their CPUs functioning properly. Why do modern desktops require higher output power supplies than their forebears but for a larger power requirement? They may be more efficient, but they still need more.
Application launcher settings window opens still come out with window too short to fit even half its content, failing to remember its size or position from last close.
Do you mean kickoff? It does remember its size here. And what do you mean with position? It is attached to the icon. If you move the icon, it moves as well.
I mean when choosing to change the launcher settings, a window opens in which to make settings changes, a window which always opens at a too small size in the middle of the screen, instead of the same size as when last closed, and in the same screen position as when last closed.
MC and root sessions are still missing from the default Konsole main menu.
Create them and submit them to openSUSE to include them in the package?
I'm a user/tester, not a programmer. They were there in KDE3, discarded in KDE4, not my definition of progress.
The Klipper icon in the tray fails to identify itself on hover. There's more, but I have better things to do than catalog shortcomings of a supposedly "GA" DTE product.
Luckily I don't remember all the KDE3 bugs I got used to and thus felt "alright". I use Factory and somehow I can do my work without any annoyances. But then I do not resize my panel every other day.
On how many do you use Factory? I have it and its various milestone and RC incarnations on 7 systems at last count. Part of testing is post-install personalization. It takes me longer in 4.x than it used to in 3.x, even though v4 has progressed to .4 over more than two years. For getting routine work done I'm still using 11.0/3.5.whatever, and OS/2, which remembers last opened window sizes and positions, same as it did 15 years ago. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. Juni 2010, 16:41:58 schrieb Felix Miata:
On 2010/06/19 10:52 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Not everyone can afford to replace working hardware. Many who can instead choose to avoid that ecologically bankrupt practice.
Hm, AFAIK today's CPUs waste less power than those from a few years ago,
Don't forget GPUs. Last I checked, current production desktop GPUs all required active cooling, quite unlike most I'm using. Similar for older CPUs, which generally require considerably smaller heat sinks and fans to keep their CPUs functioning properly. Why do modern desktops require higher output power supplies than their forebears but for a larger power requirement? They may be more efficient, but they still need more.
My netbook, i.e. screen at maximum brightness included, needs 12-19W max. It comes with an on-board intel GPU which works very well for the KDE4 desktop effects. You can put the same hardware into a desktop and have a better performing and less power consuming machine compared to some ancient hardware.
Application launcher settings window opens still come out with window too short to fit even half its content, failing to remember its size or position from last close.
Do you mean kickoff? It does remember its size here. And what do you mean with position? It is attached to the icon. If you move the icon, it moves as well.
I mean when choosing to change the launcher settings, a window opens in which to make settings changes, a window which always opens at a too small size in the middle of the screen, instead of the same size as when last closed, and in the same screen position as when last closed.
The window where you get to pick the launcher icon and whether to open the tabs on hovering? Works here with Factory, i.e. the window is big enough for all its settings.
MC and root sessions are still missing from the default Konsole main menu.
Create them and submit them to openSUSE to include them in the package?
I'm a user/tester, not a programmer. They were there in KDE3, discarded in KDE4, not my definition of progress.
Why do you need to be a programmer in order to create a profile? If I go to Settings > Manage profiles I see a root shell and I can create new shells. That's not to hard if one really needs them that badly. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/20 08:31 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Application launcher settings window opens still come out with window too short to fit even half its content, failing to remember its size or position from last close.
Do you mean kickoff? It does remember its size here. And what do you mean with position? It is attached to the icon. If you move the icon, it moves as well.
I mean when choosing to change the launcher settings, a window opens in which to make settings changes, a window which always opens at a too small size in the middle of the screen, instead of the same size as when last closed, and in the same screen position as when last closed.
The window where you get to pick the launcher icon and whether to open the tabs on hovering? Works here with Factory, i.e. the window is big enough for all its settings.
When I say "big enough" I mean big enough to show everything on first glance, which is impossible when scrolling is required to access any portion of initial content: Both these are from Factory updated less than a week ago: Does not fit: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/kde443applaunchmenu120default.png Fits: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/kde443applaunchmenu120fits.png Note that the latter "fitting" window is approximately half the screen height (~580px). OTOH the default is ~340px, with its content pane containing only about 40% of its content (~200px, less than 17%). That 200px is an even tinier fraction of a higher quality 2048x1536 screen's height (less than 14%, http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/kde443applaunchmenu144default.png ) which strengthens the behavioral resemblance to Windows' proclivity to force a scrollbar in adjusting settings regardless of available space for the settings window. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/19/2010 04:22 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2010/06/19 08:40 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
Not everyone can afford to replace working hardware. Many who can instead choose to avoid that ecologically bankrupt practice.
Then they should be using _appropriate_ software, as several others have so well pointed out.
There are so many KDE3 features missing from even KDE 4.4 ...
...list of stuff you miss...
There's more, but I have better things to do than catalog shortcomings of a supposedly "GA" DTE product.
...and not one of the things you miss have I ever used or wanted. One thing I do miss is Konqueror 3's lovely ability to open a text file or a jpeg or a web page or ... without launching a separate application. I really miss that. But I can live with what Konqueror 4 gives me. Something kde4 has that I really love is the feature of showing the alternative applications' windows as I'm going through alt-tab, rather than my having to guess from the icon what's behind the current window. There's more, but "I have better things to do than a catalog of shortcomings of" an obsolete product. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 19 June 2010 21:19:05 John E. Perry wrote:
...and not one of the things you miss have I ever used or wanted. One thing I do miss is Konqueror 3's lovely ability to open a text file or a jpeg or a web page or ... without launching a separate application. I really miss that. But I can live with what Konqueror 4 gives me.
web page? Seriously? Konqueror is a web browser, you know :) But even in kde3, konqueror couldn't (technically speaking) do any of those things on its own. It was done through kparts, which were embedded into it. And as far as I can see, it still can. kparts haven't gone away, gwenview embeds itself quite nicely in konqueror on my system. You may want to check to see that it is set to "show in embedded viewer" in the file association for that file type Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/19/2010 04:44 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 19 June 2010 21:19:05 John E. Perry wrote:
...and not one of the things you miss have I ever used or wanted. One thing I do miss is Konqueror 3's lovely ability to open a text file or a jpeg or a web page or ... without launching a separate application. I really miss that. But I can live with what Konqueror 4 gives me.
web page? Seriously? Konqueror is a web browser, you know :)
...duh. I normally use Firefox for browsing, and Konqueror when I'm mixing web functions with other work (like online help and such). I knew that, but, as you see ... :-)
But even in kde3, konqueror couldn't (technically speaking) do any of those things on its own. It was done through kparts, which were embedded into it.
... which I knew, but the visible result is what I like and meant.
And as far as I can see, it still can. kparts haven't gone away, gwenview embeds itself quite nicely in konqueror on my system.
You may want to check to see that it is set to "show in embedded viewer" in the file association for that file type
Ah. I believe konqueror 3 did this by default, and I hadn't looked at file associations, since I normally keep applications open and open files from the file dialog. Just fixed it, and test, image, and pdf's do it perfectly. Thanks. jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 19 June 2010 10:22:57 Felix Miata wrote:
The Klipper icon in the tray fails to identify itself on hover.
I thought this sounded like a candidate for a Tuesday night bug assassination, so I've just looked and couldn't reproduce this complaint. In KDE SC 4.3 (openSUSE 11.2), Klipper identifiers itself with "Klipper - clipboard tool": http://ktown.kde.org/~wstephenson/bugs/fmiata/112klipper.png IN KDE SC 4.4, Klipper identifies itself with the top of the clipboard stack or "Clipboard is empty": http://ktown.kde.org/~wstephenson/bugs/fmiata/113klipper.png However, it will also copy whitespace, \n's etc and the tooltip makes no effort to prettify these - perhaps that's what you noticed. Will (off to find another bug to snipe) -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> [06-18-10 20:44]:
On 2010/06/18 18:36 (GMT-0500) Duaine Hechler composed:
Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1
True ?
Which KDEs? If you're comparing 11.1/KDE3 to 11.2/KDE4, you're comparing a mature product (KDE3) to an alpha/beta (KDE4). KDE3 is clearly more reliable than the KDE4 that shipped with 11.2. If you're using KDE3 in 11.2, you're using a product that got no material official testing and has no support, clearly not something to expect to be better than the KDE3 that is supported in 11.1.
Well, my comment was based on KDE4, 4.4.4 And it is definitely not alpha/beta any more! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Well, okay, let's put it this way. My brother-in-law wanted to try Linux for the FIRST time - Internet, OpenOffice and thats about it. When I downloaded and installed 11.2 / KDE ? (from the download). Crash after crash, lockup.... He wanted it pulled and gone back to windows, then I said let me go back to 11.1 - installed it (base "downloaded" DVD) and happy ever since. So, if 11.2 has to be constantly be tweaked then I'm (and he) are staying on 11.1 for quite a while. I'm my eyes, 11.2 is still in the beta cycle - unless it can be installed and - solidly working - just like 11.1 Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* Duaine Hechler <dahechler@att.net> [06-18-10 21:56]:
When I downloaded and installed 11.2 / KDE ? (from the download).
Crash after crash, lockup....
so you had problems
He wanted it pulled and gone back to windows, then I said let me go back to 11.1 - installed it (base "downloaded" DVD) and happy ever since.
So, if 11.2 has to be constantly be tweaked then I'm (and he) are staying on 11.1 for quite a while.
It does not, but be advised to upgrade to KDE4 >=4.3
I'm my eyes, 11.2 is still in the beta cycle - unless it can be installed and - solidly working - just like 11.1
And you make that determination after one failed install, and perhaps the vocalizations of several dissatisfied users. Remember that being vocal != being right, just more noise. It does work solidly, but not "just like 11.1". It is 11.2 and different, but the difference is better. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/19/2010 03:53 AM, Duaine Hechler wrote:
Well, okay, let's put it this way.
My brother-in-law wanted to try Linux for the FIRST time - Internet, OpenOffice and thats about it.
When I downloaded and installed 11.2 / KDE ? (from the download).
Crash after crash, lockup....
He wanted it pulled and gone back to windows, then I said let me go back to 11.1 - installed it (base "downloaded" DVD) and happy ever since.
So, if 11.2 has to be constantly be tweaked then I'm (and he) are staying on 11.1 for quite a while.
I'm my eyes, 11.2 is still in the beta cycle - unless it can be installed and - solidly working - just like 11.1
Duaine
Ok, Duaine, I am happy to hear that 11.1 is working good on your brother-in-law his machine. Contrary to the experience of other people, your brother-in-law can work happily with 11.1. As wise man said before: if it ain't broken, just don't touch it. It might be a combination of CPU, other resident hardware and memory which causes the problem that 11.2 will not work properly. Don't forget that openSuse - whatever version - is just a snapshot of that moment. It cannot and will not be tested on all kinds of systems extensively due to time constrains and/or lack of community feedback. If you like some experimentation, just install the 11.3 version when it becomes available. Just like Windows or MAC OSX, every OpenSuse release harbors some problems too. So, nothing is perfect and some deficiencies will show themselves regardless of what version or brand you are using. Again, I had issues with the 11.1 release and not with the 11.0 or 11.2 release. Hm, not quite true: On one single machine 11.0 was troublesome but 11.1 did work without a hitch. Frans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 19 of June 2010, Duaine Hechler wrote:
Well, okay, let's put it this way.
My brother-in-law wanted to try Linux for the FIRST time - Internet, OpenOffice and thats about it.
When I downloaded and installed 11.2 / KDE ? (from the download).
Crash after crash, lockup....
In my experience, most lockups in Linux are caused by problematic X drivers. Also, I've been using KDE 4 without any serious issues for more than a year.
He wanted it pulled and gone back to windows, then I said let me go back to 11.1 - installed it (base "downloaded" DVD) and happy ever since.
More recent versions of KDE are reportedly more stable. What is your brother's-in-law graphics card?
So, if 11.2 has to be constantly be tweaked then I'm (and he) are staying on 11.1 for quite a while.
If 11.1 is easier to install, doing so sounds reasonable. It would be useful for us to learn exactly what went wrong, though.
I'm my eyes, 11.2 is still in the beta cycle - unless it can be installed and - solidly working - just like 11.1
Experiences differ depending on hardware and software use. In my case, 11.2 was actually better than the previous versions. It has been the most straightforward upgrade for me so far.
Duaine Kind regards,
Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Duaine Hechler wrote:
Well, okay, let's put it this way.
My brother-in-law wanted to try Linux for the FIRST time - Internet, OpenOffice and thats about it.
When I downloaded and installed 11.2 / KDE ? (from the download).
Crash after crash, lockup....
He wanted it pulled and gone back to windows, then I said let me go back to 11.1 - installed it (base "downloaded" DVD) and happy ever since.
So, if 11.2 has to be constantly be tweaked then I'm (and he) are staying on 11.1 for quite a while.
I'm my eyes, 11.2 is still in the beta cycle - unless it can be installed and - solidly working - just like 11.1
Duaine
Although I do not now use KDE, I could make some comment if I had actually got as far as installing 11.2 successfully after a crash of a 11.0 system (with a largely unused copy of KDE on it). 11.2 installation generated a few unwelcome surprises, but installing 11.1 was reasonably trouble free and there was no major data loss as a consequence of the failure. A major problem was initially with correct FS recognition of partitions created in 11.0 and before, rendering the structures concerned unmountable, IIRC there were some other issues as well. I would caution that any reasoning from a particular experience to a general observation is not really justifiable. - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwchEkACgkQasN0sSnLmgLszQCfRfyYGmUTZEmSeI1KF2QwSzX3 NhoAoMDFIWw3eOmtRpVlwqHpIfDs2iCE =ag9/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 18:36 -0500, Duaine Hechler wrote:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE. It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1 Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1 True ?
False, I use 11.2 every single day, 5 - 6 days a week 6 - 10 hours a day. 11.2 is stable, reliable, and efficient; it is a significant improvement over 11.1. Even suspend/resume works flawlessly. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 18:36 -0500, Duaine Hechler wrote:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE. It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1 Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1 True ?
False, I use 11.2 every single day, 5 - 6 days a week 6 - 10 hours a day. 11.2 is stable, reliable, and efficient; it is a significant improvement over 11.1. Even suspend/resume works flawlessly.
Before I go blowing my stack over that statement - was your install of 11.2 - the base install with - NO INITIAL - upgrades. Or did you have to make any upgrades - if so, then that is my point. I don't have the time to install 11.2 and spend countless hours figuring what I need to upgrade. AND, YES, the base install of 11.1 - NO initial upgrade - WAS - pretty darn stable. Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-19 05:43, Duaine Hechler wrote:
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Before I go blowing my stack over that statement - was your install of 11.2 - the base install with - NO INITIAL - upgrades.
Or did you have to make any upgrades - if so, then that is my point.
I don't have the time to install 11.2 and spend countless hours figuring what I need to upgrade.
You always have to install the updates from the single "update" repository, yes or yes. No figuring of anything, just do it. No thinking. It is automatic. The exception is when there is an update that breaks something in your particular case - but that’s an exception, not the rule.
AND, YES, the base install of 11.1 - NO initial upgrade - WAS - pretty darn stable.
That's just "chance". It happens that 11.2 is unstable on your machine, and 11.1 is stable. Well, it can happen with any version. For most people, it is the other way round. You may want to spend time figuring out why and writing bugzilla reports, so that the problem is, eventually, solved; or just use 11.1 instead and wait for 11.3. Me, I had to skip 11.1, and keep using 11.0 till 11.2 came out with my problem solved. you could also try 11.2 with a different desktop, in order to learn if the problem is the base install or kde. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwcj60ACgkQU92UU+smfQVkqwCfVmk6WJuaTmxU0PfiIRuZDNC5 iQwAn2T4oQc54Wc/R+w7u+yX3XNzFMTL =aVEA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 22:43 -0500, Duaine Hechler wrote:
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 18:36 -0500, Duaine Hechler wrote:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE. It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1 Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1 True ? False, I use 11.2 every single day, 5 - 6 days a week 6 - 10 hours a day. 11.2 is stable, reliable, and efficient; it is a significant improvement over 11.1. Even suspend/resume works flawlessly. Before I go blowing my stack over that statement -
Go ahead, blow. I'm a satisfied customer, and have satisfied users. One just said to me the other day: "I enjoy LINUX on the desktop more and more every day." That's a direct quote.
was your install of 11.2 - the base install with - NO INITIAL - upgrades.
Of course no, not performing updates is just stupid.
Or did you have to make any upgrades - if so, then that is my point.
zypper up. And I did a one-click install of the recent MonoDevelop and Banshee. One-click installs are easy, and those two applications are FANTASTIC!
I don't have the time to install 11.2 and spend countless hours figuring what I need to upgrade.
Neither do I - I use openSUSE in a professional environment. I have to get WORK done. And openSUSE is great for that: install [yes, update], do WORK. Simple.
AND, YES, the base install of 11.1 - NO initial upgrade - WAS - pretty darn stable.
Sure. Suspend/Resume was flaky. Mono was leaky. Evolution was less awesome. F-Spot was buggy. Sound was occasionally crunchy. One 11.2 - awesome all around. -- Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 2010/06/19 08:01 (GMT-0400) Adam Tauno Williams composed:
not performing updates is just stupid.
Have you tried initial post-installation updates via 24k POTS lately? Not everyone has the luxury of a reliable, high-speed internet connection, intentionally or otherwise. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/18/2010 07:36 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:
I've been watching this list very intently since my tribulation with 11.2 / KDE.
It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1
Yes, I know 11.1 has been out longer - BUT - I got 11.1 about the time in the life cycle as 11.2 and it seems to have much more bugs and quirks than 11.1
True ?
I have a mixed bag of stability experience with 11.2. No issues on a number of laptops, but very annoying stability issues on a 4 core 8 GB RAM desktop machine. I for one cannot wait for 11.3 in the hopes of getting back to the stability I am used to.
-- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Software Engineer Consultant LINUX rschweikert@novell.com 781-464-8147 Novell Making IT Work As One -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 06/19/2010 09:24 AM, Heinz Diehl wrote:
On 19.06.2010, Duaine Hechler wrote:
It seems like 11.2 is more problem prone than 11.1 True ?
I second that.
I'll join the argument. I say "nay" to that. -- Michael S. Dunsavage -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (17)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Anders Johansson -
auxsvr＠gmail.com -
C -
Carlos E. R. -
Duaine Hechler -
Felix Miata -
Frans de Boer -
G T Smith -
Greg Freemyer -
Heinz Diehl -
John E. Perry -
Michael S. Dunsavage -
Patrick Shanahan -
Robert Schweikert -
Sven Burmeister -
Will Stephenson