Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [02-20-23 04:54]:
Well, often when TW breaks because the developers have done some change that users don't know about, the only place to possibly ask is the factory list, as devs and packagers are the only people that may know what is going on. Users ask in the users or support list, and nobody knows for days, because devs don't read there.
please cite examples of "when TW breaks"
One of my TW systems broke only just three weeks ago. After a 'dup', the initrd was not re-built correctly, the system did not boot up. No need to solicit support, although I screwed up when trying to boot a rescue system - I picked 64bit instead of 32bit :-)
your continuing ranting about TW being unstable is FUD!
Maybe not quite - TW _does_ break, there are simply way too many things that are not being tested in openQA. Not a criticism, just a fact.
and factory is not the *only* place to seek help with TW difficulties, it is *not* the place.
True, most of the time it is the wrong place for a user-only to seek support. The thing with TW is - it is for users who have a penchant for tinkering and who don't mind spending the time. In my limited opinion of course. I keep TW on two uncritical systems, if they happen not to work for a week or two, it doesn't matter. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
* Per Jessen <per@jessen.ch> [02-20-23 12:45]:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [02-20-23 04:54]:
Well, often when TW breaks because the developers have done some change that users don't know about, the only place to possibly ask is the factory list, as devs and packagers are the only people that may know what is going on. Users ask in the users or support list, and nobody knows for days, because devs don't read there.
please cite examples of "when TW breaks"
One of my TW systems broke only just three weeks ago. After a 'dup', the initrd was not re-built correctly, the system did not boot up. No need to solicit support, although I screwed up when trying to boot a rescue system - I picked 64bit instead of 32bit :-)
your continuing ranting about TW being unstable is FUD!
Maybe not quite - TW _does_ break, there are simply way too many things that are not being tested in openQA. Not a criticism, just a fact.
what system doesn not break on occasion, just a fact. Labeling TW as a breaking or expect to break system is FUD.
and factory is not the *only* place to seek help with TW difficulties, it is *not* the place.
True, most of the time it is the wrong place for a user-only to seek support. The thing with TW is - it is for users who have a penchant for tinkering and who don't mind spending the time.
humm, isn't that the description of linux?
In my limited opinion of course. I keep TW on two uncritical systems, if they happen not to work for a week or two, it doesn't matter.
somewhat out-of-the-ordinary systems that you had "break", 32bit. yes, TW can and will break but that describes *any* computer system. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2023-02-20 18:51, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Per Jessen <> [02-20-23 12:45]:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [02-20-23 04:54]:
Well, often when TW breaks because the developers have done some change that users don't know about, the only place to possibly ask is the factory list, as devs and packagers are the only people that may know what is going on. Users ask in the users or support list, and nobody knows for days, because devs don't read there.
please cite examples of "when TW breaks"
One of my TW systems broke only just three weeks ago. After a 'dup', the initrd was not re-built correctly, the system did not boot up. No need to solicit support, although I screwed up when trying to boot a rescue system - I picked 64bit instead of 32bit :-)
your continuing ranting about TW being unstable is FUD!
Maybe not quite - TW _does_ break, there are simply way too many things that are not being tested in openQA. Not a criticism, just a fact.
what system doesn not break on occasion, just a fact. Labeling TW as a breaking or expect to break system is FUD.
It is just fact. TW is expected to break now and then. You just happen to love it and ignore the issues. The last time, it was with Nvidia. It even said somewhere in the documentation, in the web, not to use TW and Nvidia proprietary package, that you were on your own. Ok, it is not that bad nowdays, but there are times when it breaks. And it will happen again. It is just an expected fact. TW is where new things are developed and tested. Developers develop, it is expected that something new will not work with something else that is older, and you have to wait till the adjustments catches up. Maybe the automated testing detects it in time, maybe not. It is not criticism, it is a feature.
and factory is not the *only* place to seek help with TW difficulties, it is *not* the place.
True, most of the time it is the wrong place for a user-only to seek support. The thing with TW is - it is for users who have a penchant for tinkering and who don't mind spending the time.
humm, isn't that the description of linux?
No.
In my limited opinion of course. I keep TW on two uncritical systems, if they happen not to work for a week or two, it doesn't matter.
somewhat out-of-the-ordinary systems that you had "break", 32bit.
yes, TW can and will break but that describes *any* computer system.
No. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.4)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [02-20-23 13:19]:
On 2023-02-20 18:51, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Per Jessen <> [02-20-23 12:45]:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [02-20-23 04:54]:
Well, often when TW breaks because the developers have done some change that users don't know about, the only place to possibly ask is the factory list, as devs and packagers are the only people that may know what is going on. Users ask in the users or support list, and nobody knows for days, because devs don't read there.
please cite examples of "when TW breaks"
One of my TW systems broke only just three weeks ago. After a 'dup', the initrd was not re-built correctly, the system did not boot up. No need to solicit support, although I screwed up when trying to boot a rescue system - I picked 64bit instead of 32bit :-)
your continuing ranting about TW being unstable is FUD!
Maybe not quite - TW _does_ break, there are simply way too many things that are not being tested in openQA. Not a criticism, just a fact.
what system doesn not break on occasion, just a fact. Labeling TW as a breaking or expect to break system is FUD.
It is just fact. TW is expected to break now and then. You just happen to love it and ignore the issues.
only in you mind!
The last time, it was with Nvidia. It even said somewhere in the documentation, in the web, not to use TW and Nvidia proprietary package, that you were on your own. Ok, it is not that bad nowdays, but there are times when it breaks. And it will happen again.
everyone is "on their own" when using nvidia packages in every distro!
It is just an expected fact. TW is where new things are developed and tested. Developers develop, it is expected that something new will not work with something else that is older, and you have to wait till the adjustments catches up. Maybe the automated testing detects it in time, maybe not.
It is not criticism, it is a feature.
you know not.
and factory is not the *only* place to seek help with TW difficulties, it is *not* the place.
True, most of the time it is the wrong place for a user-only to seek support. The thing with TW is - it is for users who have a penchant for tinkering and who don't mind spending the time.
humm, isn't that the description of linux?
No.
it certainly is unless you purchase support.
In my limited opinion of course. I keep TW on two uncritical systems, if they happen not to work for a week or two, it doesn't matter.
somewhat out-of-the-ordinary systems that you had "break", 32bit.
yes, TW can and will break but that describes *any* computer system.
No.
so other systems never break. I seem to recall you lately asking for assistance for a broken non TW system. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Le 20/02/2023 à 18:44, Per Jessen a écrit :
In my limited opinion of course. I keep TW on two uncritical systems, if they happen not to work for a week or two, it doesn't matter.
I was also on this workflow since recently. But as I keep Leap more longer I have to add that thing or this other one and then going from 15.3 to 15.4 was too boring - notice one have to remove *all* his repos! With tumbleweed you don't have to change repos. If you add one, you keep it as long as it's valid. You are neither obliged to make an update is you run a critical task. so , on the long time, less fuzz Tumbleweed was not in the past (I remember evergreen :-) stable, but now it is jdd -- mon serveur usenet: dodin.fr.nf c'est quoi, usenet? http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Usenet.Usenet
On 2023-02-20 18:44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [02-20-23 04:54]:
Well, often when TW breaks because the developers have done some change that users don't know about, the only place to possibly ask is the factory list, as devs and packagers are the only people that may know what is going on. Users ask in the users or support list, and nobody knows for days, because devs don't read there.
please cite examples of "when TW breaks"
One of my TW systems broke only just three weeks ago. After a 'dup', the initrd was not re-built correctly, the system did not boot up. No need to solicit support, although I screwed up when trying to boot a rescue system - I picked 64bit instead of 32bit :-)
xrdp broke recently. smb broke last November. Pipewire also broke in November. xrdp possibly also broke last October. mlocate broke in February, but it also affected Leap. digikam broke on August 2021 systemd also broke that month Just a quick search for the word "break" in TW posts. It is not criticism nor FUD. It is a feature, a expected thing to happen in development of anything. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.4)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [02-20-23 13:46]:
On 2023-02-20 18:44, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [02-20-23 04:54]:
Well, often when TW breaks because the developers have done some change that users don't know about, the only place to possibly ask is the factory list, as devs and packagers are the only people that may know what is going on. Users ask in the users or support list, and nobody knows for days, because devs don't read there.
please cite examples of "when TW breaks"
One of my TW systems broke only just three weeks ago. After a 'dup', the initrd was not re-built correctly, the system did not boot up. No need to solicit support, although I screwed up when trying to boot a rescue system - I picked 64bit instead of 32bit :-)
xrdp broke recently.
I don't use it.
smb broke last November.
not for me.
Pipewire also broke in November.
not for me.
xrdp possibly also broke last October.
mlocate broke in February, but it also affected Leap.
not for me
digikam broke on August 2021
I didn't experience that but seldom utilize digikam.
systemd also broke that month
no
Just a quick search for the word "break" in TW posts. It is not criticism nor FUD. It is a feature, a expected thing to happen in development of anything.
when <users> say "break", it doesn't mean TW broke but that <user> experienced problems, but quite frequently, maybe most of the time, problems of their own doing. you cannot equate "break" to a user's system problem unless the break was caused by packages issued by openSUSE. statistics only reveal what is desired by the person stating the statistics. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
On 2/21/23 04:14, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [02-20-23 04:54]:
Well, often when TW breaks because the developers have done some change that users don't know about, the only place to possibly ask is the factory list, as devs and packagers are the only people that may know what is going on. Users ask in the users or support list, and nobody knows for days, because devs don't read there.
please cite examples of "when TW breaks"
One of my TW systems broke only just three weeks ago. After a 'dup', the initrd was not re-built correctly, the system did not boot up. No need to solicit support, although I screwed up when trying to boot a rescue system - I picked 64bit instead of 32bit :-)
your continuing ranting about TW being unstable is FUD!
Maybe not quite - TW _does_ break, there are simply way too many things that are not being tested in openQA. Not a criticism, just a fact.
and factory is not the *only* place to seek help with TW difficulties, it is *not* the place.
True, most of the time it is the wrong place for a user-only to seek support. The thing with TW is - it is for users who have a penchant for tinkering and who don't mind spending the time.
In my limited opinion of course. I keep TW on two uncritical systems, if they happen not to work for a week or two, it doesn't matter.
In my experience occasionally tumbleweed breaks, but never bad enough that I haven't been able to just roll back to a previous snapshot and have it work again. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Am 22.02.23 um 08:25 schrieb Simon Lees:
On 2/21/23 04:14, Per Jessen wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [02-20-23 04:54]:
Well, often when TW breaks because the developers have done some change that users don't know about, the only place to possibly ask is the factory list, as devs and packagers are the only people that may know what is going on. Users ask in the users or support list, and nobody knows for days, because devs don't read there.
please cite examples of "when TW breaks"
One of my TW systems broke only just three weeks ago. After a 'dup', the initrd was not re-built correctly, the system did not boot up. No need to solicit support, although I screwed up when trying to boot a rescue system - I picked 64bit instead of 32bit :-)
your continuing ranting about TW being unstable is FUD!
Maybe not quite - TW _does_ break, there are simply way too many things that are not being tested in openQA. Not a criticism, just a fact.
and factory is not the *only* place to seek help with TW difficulties, it is *not* the place.
True, most of the time it is the wrong place for a user-only to seek support. The thing with TW is - it is for users who have a penchant for tinkering and who don't mind spending the time.
In my limited opinion of course. I keep TW on two uncritical systems, if they happen not to work for a week or two, it doesn't matter.
In my experience occasionally tumbleweed breaks, but never bad enough that I haven't been able to just roll back to a previous snapshot and have it work again.
in my experience i use tumbleweed since end2017 begin2018 in my company (5 machines) in the "real world of production enviorement". i do not every tumbleweed update, sometimes i skip up to some month of updates. a fine resource for a choice of updates (and what update better not install) was https://review.tumbleweed.boombatower.com/ but its long long broken, thats bad (nobody cares). sometimes a update makes problems here but most times of stuff not a fault of opensuse/tumbleweed. configuration changes in samba / nowdays dropping of old smb1 support. and what i could say on computers who have "standart" installation without some special things (hard/software connected) like samba for old windows connections, some special network stuff, virtualisation or similar (more or less exotic stuff) or (not recomendet for tumbleweed nvidia prop.), updates work most, most, most times without problems (another 4 machines i am the admin). ... of course you have to do the rpmconfigcheck after updated and also some tests if the critical parts you need are still working. so you need maybe a little more time. simoN -- www.becherer.de
Simon Lees wrote:
In my experience occasionally tumbleweed breaks, but never bad enough that I haven't been able to just roll back to a previous snapshot and have it work again.
I don't dabble enough with TW - I don't even know how do to that :-) and it can be months in between 'zypper dups'. We have one text-only system and one with KDE - I dup'ed the latter only yesterday, I think it was maybe six months out of date. I'll have to go and see how it's doing. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
Per Jessen wrote:
We have one text-only system and one with KDE - I dup'ed the latter only yesterday, I think it was maybe six months out of date. I'll have to go and see how it's doing.
wrt $subj - no, not this time :-) I amended the lilo config (I had been experimenting with another initrd), then lilo'ed it and it looks fine. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes (2016 - present) We're hiring - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes
participants (6)
-
Carlos E. R. -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Simon Becherer -
Simon Lees