[opensuse] Second Try: Redesign of YaST Control Center

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Stefan Hundhammer

26 Nov 2007 26 Nov '07

14:20

After reading so many dozens of utterly off-topic posts in the first thread I gave up. The first thread was not meant to be about generic wishes about YaST and related. It was not about a complete rewrite of everything. It was not about what could be improved in various individual YaST modules. It was not about bugs that could be reported with Bugzilla. It was not about dropping the ncurses text mode (we don't plan to do anything like that). Rather, it was about The YaST Control Center in particular the Qt version. This is the small, very basic, Qt-only (very little dependencies, in particular not to the entire YaST engine) application that starts YaST modules. Some people call it the YaST shell. Currently, it looks like this: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:YaST_Control_Center.png And THIS is what we want to change. THIS is what we want a radical new approach (or, at minimum, a radical new look). So please, let's start over and PLEASE let's focus on the topic. We think community input is important. We think some of you out there might have a really great idea how we could do this control center thingy better. We identified a number of problems with that old control center: (1) There are too many icons in there - way more that can easily be navigated. (2) The groups don't always match users' expectations. (E.g., is firewall more related to security or to network?) (3) It's hard for newbies to figure out what does what. (3a) Sometimes it's hard to figure out the difference between modules. (4) It's often enough hard for expert to find things. (5) It's not exactly pretty. Back when we designed that control center, we figured it would do its job fairly well. But that was when we only had a small number of modules. And eye candy was less readily available from the underlying toolkits. Time has changed since then. I counted no less than 119 YaST-related .desktop files on my machine (not counting the groups files). That corresponds to 119 icons that have to be presented somehow. That just doesn't scale any more with the old control center approach. So in the ideal case we would like to have a completely new approach. This is what that "radical change" was all about. Maybe there is a different way than just placing a lot of icons in a window (with or without groups) and let the user figure out how to deal with it. Carefully taking care, of course, of all kinds of users, newbies as well as experts. Failing that, maybe somebody has a good idea how to present the modules traditionally in an icon view, but in a way that does not overwhelm everybody when the window opens (the "show all at once" approach) or that leaves the user searching for the right module at most times (the icon groups or even icon tree approach). This is what that was all about. This is what we ask your opinions for. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Gabriel .

26 Nov 26 Nov

14:30

On Nov 26, 2007 11:20 AM, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

The YaST Control Center

in particular the Qt version. This is the small, very basic, Qt-only (very little dependencies, in particular not to the entire YaST engine) application that starts YaST modules. Some people call it the YaST shell. Currently, it looks like this:

http://en.opensuse.org/Image:YaST_Control_Center.png

And THIS is what we want to change. THIS is what we want a radical new approach (or, at minimum, a radical new look).

So please, let's start over and PLEASE let's focus on the topic. We think community input is important. We think some of you out there might have a really great idea how we could do this control center thingy better.

I have just one little comment from my own experience. Apart of a new redesign, which is really needed, I like to have the chance to rearrange the items using my criteria. Do you think would be possible to add this ability? -- Kind Regards Visitá/Go to >> http://www.opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer

14:33

On Monday 26 November 2007 15:30, Gabriel . wrote:

...

I have just one little comment from my own experience. Apart of a new redesign, which is really needed, I like to have the chance to rearrange the items using my criteria. Do you think would be possible to add this ability?

We are in the process of collecting ideas. That's one idea, and it is hereby noted. Beware, though, that this is not the same as promising we'll do it. ;-) CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philippe Landau

14:34

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

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After reading so many dozens of utterly off-topic posts in the first thread I gave up. Thanks for being so positive.

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And THIS is what we want to change. THIS is what we want a radical new approach (or, at minimum, a radical new look). Instead of being angry at the reactions you could have understood that your initial wording was incomplete.

...

So please, let's start over and PLEASE let's focus on the topic. We think community input is important. We think some of you out there might have a really great idea how we could do this control center thingy better.

...

This is what that was all about. This is what we ask your opinions for. A 'Thank you' for the many thoughtful posts so far would have been nice too. The contribution by Thomas Goettlicher was so refreshing. A positive attitude can be encouraging and productive. I hope the different approaches don't reflect the Novell hierarchy.

Kind regards Philippe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Magnus Boman

14:43

Philippe, On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 15:34 +0100, Philippe Landau wrote:

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Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

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After reading so many dozens of utterly off-topic posts in the first thread I gave up. Thanks for being so positive.

...
And THIS is what we want to change. THIS is what we want a radical new approach (or, at minimum, a radical new look). Instead of being angry at the reactions you could have understood that your initial wording was incomplete.

Since not much was on topic in the previous thread, he's trying to explain what input, exactly, they want. Nothing to do with being angry.

...

...
So please, let's start over and PLEASE let's focus on the topic. We think community input is important. We think some of you out there might have a really great idea how we could do this control center thingy better.

...
This is what that was all about. This is what we ask your opinions for. A 'Thank you' for the many thoughtful posts so far would have been nice too. The contribution by Thomas Goettlicher was so refreshing. A positive attitude can be encouraging and productive. I hope the different approaches don't reflect the Novell hierarchy.

Please don't go there. Leave this topic alone if you are not here to provide the input he asked for. We do have an OT ML.

...

Kind regards Philippe

Even kinder regards, Magnus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer

14:50

On Monday 26 November 2007 15:34, Philippe Landau wrote:

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A 'Thank you' for the many thoughtful posts so far would have been nice too.

Sorry for not thanking the people who made me spend hours reading unrelated stuff. Thanks in advance to everybody who stays on topic in this thread. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Hegel

14:50

...

So please, let's start over and PLEASE let's focus on the topic. We think community input is important. We think some of you out there might have a really great idea how we could do this control center thingy better. Since you are distracted to read all the posts of the previous thread and dig out the really useful ideas I do take the time again and repeat one of my proposal: grapics tablet and mouse should have it's own entry point in

Hi, Stefan Hundhammer wrote: the hardware section like printers and scanners. To hide it in the "Graphics Card and Monitor" section doesn't match users' expectations at all ( referring to your point #2 ). Rgds, Stephan. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer

14:57

On Monday 26 November 2007 15:50, Stephan Hegel wrote:

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grapics tablet and mouse should have it's own entry point in the hardware section like printers and scanners.

That's one problem we have. On one hand, we'd like to consolidate modules with similar tasks into one. This avoids cluttering the control center with lots of entries. On the other hand, it's sometimes not obvious for users where to find any specific module or setting. This is where having somewhat redundant entries might be handy. This is why we need some different means of navigation. Even if that means just having a very much advanced search facility (the current search only searches module name and summary - not very much to get good results from). Maybe something in the way of tag clouds. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth

15:13

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

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On Monday 26 November 2007 15:50, Stephan Hegel wrote:

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grapics tablet and mouse should have it's own entry point in the hardware section like printers and scanners.

That's one problem we have. On one hand, we'd like to consolidate modules with similar tasks into one. This avoids cluttering the control center with lots of entries.

On the other hand, it's sometimes not obvious for users where to find any specific module or setting. This is where having somewhat redundant entries might be handy.

This is why we need some different means of navigation. Even if that means just having a very much advanced search facility (the current search only searches module name and summary - not very much to get good results from).

Maybe something in the way of tag clouds.

My humble suggestion is that you don't really need any new technology (although it might also provide some benefit). What you do need - IMHO - is a good set of design rules and the will to implement/enforce them. Taking Stephan's example, a design rule that said 'every hardware device should have an entry in the hardware section' [and it may have other entries elsewhere] would be sufficient, if implemented. Search would presumably work sufficiently well as is if there was a design rule 'all keywords and tags must be listed at the end of the module summary'. The latter rule seems to me perfect to be implemented by the community. List all the summaries on wiki pages and let the community add keywords until they're happy. Then import them to YaST. For that matter, one or more revised YaST menu designs (with multiple entries, i.e. a lattice) could be prototyped as wiki pages. Then people could discuss actual designs and on a much faster cycle than the YaST release cycle. Of course, the design rules could be published on the wiki as well. Go to it folks! Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

16:16

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-11-26 at 15:20 +0100, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

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After reading so many dozens of utterly off-topic posts in the first thread I gave up.

Sorry. Perhaps your wording the first time was not clear enough, and perhaps if you had posted on a weekday, you could have seen how we were straying and steer the discussion back on track.

...

http://en.opensuse.org/Image:YaST_Control_Center.png

And THIS is what we want to change. THIS is what we want a radical new approach (or, at minimum, a radical new look).

Well, I find the present look is just fine, no need to change it! :-P

...

We identified a number of problems with that old control center:

(1) There are too many icons in there - way more that can easily be navigated.

(2) The groups don't always match users' expectations. (E.g., is firewall more related to security or to network?)

Both! Put the icon in both places - uh, oh, but that adds clutter :-) I don't really care about the icons, they are just eye candy. As far as I'm concerned, text entries would be just as fine. But I understand others think different, so they'll come with ideas.

...

(3) It's hard for newbies to figure out what does what.

(3a) Sometimes it's hard to figure out the difference between modules.

True.

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(4) It's often enough hard for expert to find things.

True as well. What about a help tip on mouse hover? Or a help panel. Even a small FAQ with links that highlight the appropriate module (not activating it).

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(5) It's not exactly pretty.

No, I don't agree: I like it as it is. It is familiar.

...

Maybe there is a different way than just placing a lot of icons in a window (with or without groups) and let the user figure out how to deal with it. Carefully taking care, of course, of all kinds of users, newbies as well as experts.

What about a main menu with a selector for "beginner/expert/master of the universe"? Some programs do that.

...

This is what that was all about. This is what we ask your opinions for.

Thanks for asking :-) I would certainly appreciate a help panel or equivalent explaining what each module is for, or what module we need in order to do something, even if the module is not installed yet. A small FAQ, perhaps. Automatic links to the magnific suse reference book (in html now), which open on the appropiate topic that a certain module is about - kind of RTFM, eh? And I would also appreciate if all yast interfaces (qt, gtk, ncurses) had the same functionality, behaviour, and approximate look. I understand you only ask about qt interface now, but nevertheless, please consider that. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHSvFRtTMYHG2NR9URAiJuAJ0druwR6xVs8KZ0LIhhLcK+NS/N1gCfUEMc aI+b0WBHIXMkzGkVCyasV7Y= =WFwP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

27 Nov 27 Nov

09:03

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And I would also appreciate if all yast interfaces (qt, gtk, ncurses) had the same functionality, behaviour, and approximate look. I understand you only ask about qt interface now, but nevertheless, please consider that.

This is a big issue to me. The recent Gnomification of parts of YAST and the resulting totally different (parts of the) YAST user interface in Gnome vs KDE was an issue I raised and was subsequently shot down. I can't seem to express how important a GUI agnostic YAST is to me. YAST as a common tool regardless of GUI selected is a major strength. I really want to see that remain the case... that with any changes to the UI... be it tabs, text, all icons in one big panel or whatever, that the changes be applied consistently and are the same regardless of the end user choice of Gnome, Enlightenment, KDE etc. To sum it up, When the changes are made, please do not create two maintenance paths with one style for KDE, one for Gnome etc. Make it a common interface. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

13:18

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-11-27 at 10:03 +0100, Clayton wrote:

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And I would also appreciate if all yast interfaces (qt, gtk, ncurses) had the same functionality, behaviour, and approximate look. I understand you only ask about qt interface now, but nevertheless, please consider that.

This is a big issue to me. The recent Gnomification of parts of YAST and the resulting totally different (parts of the) YAST user interface in Gnome vs KDE was an issue I raised and was subsequently shot down.

There is a trick in a bugzilla to make the gnome version use the kde version of YOU. Ie, all YaST is gnome style, except YOU, which is pretty unusable in gnome style. If you can't find it, I'll post it here.

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I can't seem to express how important a GUI agnostic YAST is to me. YAST as a common tool regardless of GUI selected is a major strength. I really want to see that remain the case... that with any changes to the UI... be it tabs, text, all icons in one big panel or whatever, that the changes be applied consistently and are the same regardless of the end user choice of Gnome, Enlightenment, KDE etc.

Absolutely. And text mode too: text mode is used a lot by administrators of servers, probably headless. Don't forget YaST in text mode.

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To sum it up, When the changes are made, please do not create two maintenance paths with one style for KDE, one for Gnome etc. Make it a common interface.

Absolutely. I can accept different external appearance, but the menus and all the functionality must be basically the same. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHTBkmtTMYHG2NR9URAg1DAJ0UjTKMHslp7ioPTnrUzKepEf9ongCdEkJU qYbhz3/uMFrPqQdMIW6WlIY= =IDdj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

13:53

...

...
This is a big issue to me. The recent Gnomification of parts of YAST and the resulting totally different (parts of the) YAST user interface in Gnome vs KDE was an issue I raised and was subsequently shot down.

There is a trick in a bugzilla to make the gnome version use the kde version of YOU. Ie, all YaST is gnome style, except YOU, which is pretty unusable in gnome style. If you can't find it, I'll post it here.

I know the trick. As end users we shouldn't need to do stunts to have a common interface... this was all discussed on one of the other mailing lists though back when I was yelling about it :-)

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Absolutely. And text mode too: text mode is used a lot by administrators of servers, probably headless. Don't forget YaST in text mode.

Yup I agree. i rarely use text mode... usually VNC admin

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I can accept different external appearance, but the menus and all the functionality must be basically the same.

Same thoughts here. Icons and colors make no difference to me. I don't care if Tango icons are used over Oxygen or whatever... that is cosmetic. What I do not want to see is totally different layout from one GUI to the next. YAST has to remain as neutral as possible to keep it the star of openSUSE that it is. But... that's my opinion :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

28 Nov 28 Nov

01:40

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-11-27 at 14:53 +0100, Clayton wrote:

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There is a trick in a bugzilla to make the gnome version use the kde version of YOU. Ie, all YaST is gnome style, except YOU, which is pretty unusable in gnome style. If you can't find it, I'll post it here.

I know the trick. As end users we shouldn't need to do stunts to have a common interface... this was all discussed on one of the other mailing lists though back when I was yelling about it :-)

You probably refer to adjusting /etc/sysconfig/yast2. I refer to edit /sbin/yast2: select_gui_frontend() ... if [ "$module" = "sw_single" ] || [ "$module" = "online_update" ]; then WANTED_GUI="qt" fi near the end of the function.

...

...
I can accept different external appearance, but the menus and all the functionality must be basically the same.

Same thoughts here. Icons and colors make no difference to me. I don't care if Tango icons are used over Oxygen or whatever... that is cosmetic. What I do not want to see is totally different layout from one GUI to the next. YAST has to remain as neutral as possible to keep it the star of openSUSE that it is.

But... that's my opinion :-)

Mine too :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHTMcOtTMYHG2NR9URAq+jAJ45fhpPhUc6kVTx1fe9fIOPNmk0tQCfQ5at Rp9JtMIXO1z9k3m2jALLTX4= =66/a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

27 Nov 27 Nov

15:11

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I can accept different external appearance, but the menus and all the functionality must be basically the same.

this is extremely usefull, specially here (on the mailing list) or when debugging through phone, one have to know only one setup :-)) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Russell Jones

10:02

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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I don't really care about the icons, they are just eye candy. As far as I'm concerned, text entries would be just as fine. But I understand others think different, so they'll come with ideas. How about a List/Details view of the icons, i.e. icons scaled to about 0.8cm next to sortable columns of text?

Russell Jones -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Russell Jones

10:14

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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I don't really care about the icons, they are just eye candy. As far as I'm concerned, text entries would be just as fine. But I understand others think different, so they'll come with ideas. How about a List/Details view of the icons, i.e. icons scaled to about 0.8cm next to sortable columns of text? Alongside this on the left could be a directed graph presented as a

Russell Jones wrote: tree, i.e. with icons multiply categorised. The selected level would be displayed on the right. I think the idea of having a, for want of a better term, user competence filter is a good one, too. [OT] This could extend within YaST modules, simplifying the interface and making best guesses as appropriate. Ideally, at the highest level all of sysconfig would be exposed through YaST. [/OT] Russell Jones -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

28 Nov 28 Nov

01:42

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-11-27 at 10:02 -0000, Russell Jones wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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I don't really care about the icons, they are just eye candy. As far as I'm concerned, text entries would be just as fine. But I understand others think different, so they'll come with ideas.

...

How about a List/Details view of the icons, i.e. icons scaled to about 0.8cm next to sortable columns of text?

Nice! - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHTMdttTMYHG2NR9URAux7AJ4/UlC4LPVeWSsPyZNlM+O7sAjZAwCggOSS T16wfr4zsQweGda0GTndVjo= =jwCw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber

26 Nov 26 Nov

16:33

On 26/11/2007, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

So in the ideal case we would like to have a completely new approach. This is what that "radical change" was all about.

Maybe there is a different way than just placing a lot of icons in a window (with or without groups) and let the user figure out how to deal with it. Carefully taking care, of course, of all kinds of users, newbies as well as experts.

Failing that, maybe somebody has a good idea how to present the modules traditionally in an icon view, but in a way that does not overwhelm everybody when the window opens (the "show all at once" approach) or that leaves the user searching for the right module at most times (the icon groups or even icon tree approach).

This is what that was all about. This is what we ask your opinions for.

My thoughts on the matter are that I think one needs to take a step back from: "how easily can the user find what he/she wants within yast2-control-centre?" and have as the starting point "how easily can the user find what he/she wants within the Desktop?" Both KDE and GNOME have easier to use application launchers and configuration organisers now. I think some of the yast modules might belong in one of these. This means thinking for each icon in YaST where a user might look for it from a blank desktop. Some examples: Network Card,Sound... - Fall into some nice categories like configuration, hardware - where would a user look for hardware configuration in the desktop, where do other operating systems keep such configuration options? Kiwi image creation,Log viewer - More applications than configuration in my opinion. All the AppArmor[sic] modules - A logical group of modules that maybe doesn't fit anywhere nicely. Software Management - Where do other operating systems keep add/remove software etc? So what is the point of the yast2-control-centre as it exists today? It is saying "This application, or configuration is arbitrarily different to all the others on your system, so it's in a different place". I don't believe that just because something is implemented with the YaST platform it should therefore automatically be in a special YaST2 control centre, this becomes increasingly clear as the number of YaST modules increases. Whether this means putting some of the yast modules in system-settings/gnome equivalent & some in kickoff/main-menu, or whether it means having a "hardware control centre", a "server control centre" etc, or something else entirely I don't have an answer for, having not researched it. I'd just like to see the appropriate place for exposing a YaST module to a user considered from the desktop level, than "where does it go in yast2-control-centre". Of course if modules are exposed in various logical places in each desktop, this does not preclude still having a yast2-control-centre for existing users who are used to it, and so existing documentation is still accurate, and so there is still a way to discover the modules in ncurses. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh

23:54

On 26/11/2007, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

So in the ideal case we would like to have a completely new approach. This is what that "radical change" was all about.

You want a radical change. How about just adding everything to the KDE menu system. Under "YaST" you would have each category. Under "Software " a menu opens with each module. "Hardware" opens a similar menu. Etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseum. Then every person could use Kmenu Editor to make a menu with their own most used modules, call it "Favorites" or something. You could move the module links around any way you wanted them. Create new links in different categories to suit yourself. If, at some point, you decide that there needs to be a new YaST module it can be added with a minimum of fuss and bother. Actually, I like it like it is. It works. [ That's probably the biggest point. ] AND, IMHO, it's simple enough for anyone with a handful of working gray cells to figure out. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith

27 Nov 27 Nov

08:57

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 26/11/2007, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

<snip>

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You want a radical change. How about just adding everything to the KDE menu system. Under "YaST" you would have each category. Under "Software " a menu opens with each module. "Hardware" opens a similar menu. Etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseum.

Then every person could use Kmenu Editor to make a menu with their own most used modules, call it "Favorites" or something. You could move the

One point..., not everyone uses KDE so the solution needs to be desktop neutral.. - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHS9veasN0sSnLmgIRArWrAKDvzJBhfCe1zF9GwRbRfoDqC75hNgCeJvZb hYa+EKtxMuuGnKkAYbNyiYw= =fDri -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Russell Jones

10:06

G T Smith wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Billie Walsh wrote:

...
On 26/11/2007, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

<snip>

...
You want a radical change. How about just adding everything to the KDE menu system. Under "YaST" you would have each category. Under "Software " a menu opens with each module. "Hardware" opens a similar menu. Etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseum.

Then every person could use Kmenu Editor to make a menu with their own most used modules, call it "Favorites" or something. You could move the

One point..., not everyone uses KDE so the solution needs to be desktop neutral..

I seem to recall there's a (freedesktop.org?) standard for menus under X. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh

12:11

On 11/27/2007 G T Smith wrote:

...

One point..., not everyone uses KDE so the solution needs to be desktop neutral..

If I remember right, and I have to admit that sometimes my rememberer doesn't work quite like it used to, the request for suggestions was "QT" specific. As I understand it, and I'm not a guru by any means, KDE is "QT" specific. SO, I would assume [ "assume" makes an ass of you and me ] that the request was for KDE specific suggestions. I could be wrong. Even after a couple years there is a LOT that I don't really understand. However, I would think that the same system would/could be applied to Gnome just as easily as to KDE. For those that use other interfaces, well I have no idea. I haven't ever used anything but Gnome and KDE, and the occasional terminal window. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer

12:24

On Tuesday 27 November 2007 13:11, Billie Walsh wrote:

...

...
One point..., not everyone uses KDE so the solution needs to be desktop neutral..

If I remember right, and I have to admit that sometimes my rememberer doesn't work quite like it used to, the request for suggestions was "QT" specific. As I understand it, and I'm not a guru by any means, KDE is "QT" specific. SO, I would assume [ "assume" makes an ass of you and me ] that the request was for KDE specific suggestions.

The Qt version is what you get for all X11 environments except Gnome. It's not just for KDE. If it was, we'd use the KDE infrastructure directly which would offer some more nice features. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh

28 Nov 28 Nov

00:55

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

On Tuesday 27 November 2007 13:11, Billie Walsh wrote:

...
...
One point..., not everyone uses KDE so the solution needs to be desktop neutral..

If I remember right, and I have to admit that sometimes my rememberer doesn't work quite like it used to, the request for suggestions was "QT" specific. As I understand it, and I'm not a guru by any means, KDE is "QT" specific. SO, I would assume [ "assume" makes an ass of you and me ] that the request was for KDE specific suggestions.

The Qt version is what you get for all X11 environments except Gnome. It's not just for KDE. If it was, we'd use the KDE infrastructure directly which would offer some more nice features.

CU

I just knew I read somewhere that KDE went with QT and Gnome went with something else. I sure as heck don't know a whole lot and I'm not sure I understand half what I know. *<[:oD I remember that in the first post of this "Second Try" QT was mentioned so my poor feeble brain associated that with KDE. I tried both when I first started experimenting with Linux and stuck with KDE. I really haven't used anything else except for a few short forays into CLI. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

01:28

Billie Walsh wrote:

...

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 13:11, Billie Walsh wrote:

...
...
One point..., not everyone uses KDE so the solution needs to be desktop neutral..

If I remember right, and I have to admit that sometimes my rememberer doesn't work quite like it used to, the request for suggestions was "QT" specific. As I understand it, and I'm not a guru by any means, KDE is "QT" specific. SO, I would assume [ "assume" makes an ass of you and me ] that the request was for KDE specific suggestions.

The Qt version is what you get for all X11 environments except Gnome. It's not just for KDE. If it was, we'd use the KDE infrastructure directly which would offer some more nice features.

CU

I just knew I read somewhere that KDE went with QT and Gnome went with something else. I sure as heck don't know a whole lot and I'm not sure I

GTK. GTK stands for "GIMP Tool Kit" But then it got hijacked as "GNOME Tool Kit"

...

understand half what I know. *<[:oD I remember that in the first post of this "Second Try" QT was mentioned so my poor feeble brain associated that with KDE. I tried both when I first started experimenting with

Lots and lots of stuff is written with QT, but Trolltech has no formal relationship with KDE.

...

Linux and stuck with KDE. I really haven't used anything else except for a few short forays into CLI.

Heh. Every time I try GIMP, I can't understand how people can use it. Almost as much overhead as KDE, but without the ability to tweak it which would justify the overhead. Too much assumption that everyone is "the average user" -- of course, the average user has at least one thing which makes him or her different from most other users...and the inability to change those settings completely turns me off to Gnome. (I do run some GNOME apps, like gaim/pidgen... but GNOME itself is... bleah). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson

11:19

On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Billie Walsh said:

...

I just knew I read somewhere that KDE went with QT and Gnome went with something else. I sure as heck don't know a whole lot and I'm not sure I understand half what I know. *<[:oD I remember that in the first post of this "Second Try" QT was mentioned so my poor feeble brain associated that with KDE. I tried both when I first started experimenting with Linux and stuck with KDE. I really haven't used anything else except for a few short forays into CLI.

KDE builds on Qt. KDE is Qt plus a bunch o'stuff, but you can still write standalone Qt applications. GNOME builds on GTK. GNOME is GTK plus a bunch o'stuff, but you can still write standalone GTK applications. When YaST2 was designed, SUSE favoured KDE, so standalone Qt was the choice for a GUI-independent GUI frontend to YaST2. On the KDE side we show the YaST2 modules in the (freedesktop.org) standard menu structure, and used to show them in Control Centre as well. Personally, I hope we will be able to get them back in KDE4's System Settings. HTH Will -- Desktop Engineer KDE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh

12:09

On 11/28/2007 Will Stephenson wrote:

...

KDE builds on Qt. KDE is Qt plus a bunch o'stuff, but you can still write standalone Qt applications. GNOME builds on GTK. GNOME is GTK plus a bunch o'stuff, but you can still write standalone GTK applications.

Thanks for the explanation. That clarifies some of what I "knew" but didn't really "know".

...

When YaST2 was designed, SUSE favoured KDE, so standalone Qt was the

choice

...

for a GUI-independent GUI frontend to YaST2. On the KDE side we show the YaST2 modules in the (freedesktop.org) standard menu structure, and used to show them in Control Centre as well. Personally, I hope we will be able to get them back in KDE4's System Settings.

HTH

Will

Actually, my idea for integrating it into the menu structure was only about half serious. I really expected to get blasted for it. BUT, in a way it does sort of make sense. Through both these "new YaST" threads I have seen a lot of people that aren't happy with where things are. SO, they could make their own menus and put things where they want. "YaST" is just a container, much like a menu, that opens other "applications/modules" to actually do what your trying to do. In modern machines the minor memory use to keep an unused window open is not a problem but why does it need to stay open after you have the module your going to use opened up. It's done it's job. When you open an application with the KDE/Gnome/**** menu system the menu goes back to sleep till you need it again. Imagine what a mess your desktop would be if the menus were always hanging around with all the sub menus open [ would look like the desktop on my better half's computer with her hundreds of icons everywhere - UGH *<[:oP ] YaST, as a container, is almost superfluous. Now don't anyone jump me for knocking YaST. IMHO, YaST is probably one of the very best things about OpenSuSE. I've played around with several other Linux distros and no one else has anything close. It's a fantastic tool. My kudos to those that designed it and maintain it. They did/do a wonderful job. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

12:57

Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 11/28/2007 Will Stephenson wrote:

...
KDE builds on Qt. KDE is Qt plus a bunch o'stuff, but you can still write standalone Qt applications. GNOME builds on GTK. GNOME is GTK plus a bunch o'stuff, but you can still write standalone GTK applications.

Thanks for the explanation. That clarifies some of what I "knew" but didn't really "know".

...
When YaST2 was designed, SUSE favoured KDE, so standalone Qt was the choice for a GUI-independent GUI frontend to YaST2. On the KDE side we show the YaST2 modules in the (freedesktop.org) standard menu structure, and used to show them in Control Centre as well. Personally, I hope we will be able to get them back in KDE4's System Settings.

HTH

Will

Actually, my idea for integrating it into the menu structure was only about half serious. I really expected to get blasted for it. BUT, in a way it does sort of make sense. Through both these "new YaST" threads I have seen a lot of people that aren't happy with where things are. SO, they could make their own menus and put things where they want. "YaST" is just a container, much like a menu, that opens other "applications/modules" to actually do what your trying to do. In modern machines the minor memory use to keep an unused window open is not a problem but why does it need to stay open after you have the module your going to use opened up.

Personally, I *LIKE* that behavior. Usually when I open up YaST, I'm going to do multiple things. I might PLAN on only doing one thing...but I usually take a look around -- is there something I was thinking of tweaking last week, and just forgot???... I poke around a bit to remind myself if there is anything else I should play around with. And when I've just installed a system, then I probably end up making adjustments to about 25% of the things I can do in YaST. I DEFINITELY want YaST Control Center staying open until I explicitly close it.

...

It's done it's job. When you open an application

Unless I want to open up one module, and then another module, and then another module. Then it would be a big annoyance to be forced to keep re-executing YaST Control Center.

...

with the KDE/Gnome/**** menu system the menu goes back to sleep till you need it again. Imagine what a mess your desktop would be if the menus were always hanging around with all the sub menus open [ would look like the desktop on my better half's computer with her hundreds of icons everywhere - UGH *<[:oP ] YaST, as a container, is almost superfluous.

Now don't anyone jump me for knocking YaST. IMHO, YaST is probably one of the very best things about OpenSuSE. I've played around with several other Linux distros and no one else has anything close. It's a fantastic tool. My kudos to those that designed it and maintain it. They did/do a wonderful job.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

29 Nov 29 Nov

15:11

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

and then another module. Then it would be a big annoyance to be forced to keep re-executing YaST Control Center.

specially if one needs to enter root pass each time :-( but I think the OT wants only the control center to desapear as long as the module is active and come back after it ends. as it's usually not a good idea to have several modules run together, why not, but it's really minor jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth

28 Nov 28 Nov

13:31

Billie Walsh wrote:

...

Through both these "new YaST" threads I have seen a lot of people that aren't happy with where things are. SO, they could make their own menus and put things where they want. "YaST" is just a container, much like a menu, that opens other "applications/modules" to actually do what your trying to do.

I think Billie's right. Allowing users to customise the navigation is a good idea. Of course, there always needs to be a standard/common way as well - for administrators to use, to describe in HOW-TOs etc. There've also been a variety of opinions about whether to have icons, how many items should be visible, should non-installed items be visible etc. So it's clear the interface needs to be configurable. Configurability usually results in extra squirly GUI code, so then I thought, why not construct the user interface as a web page - the same way most routers are controlled. Then a lot of display options can be controlled by CSS and people can rearrange menus and other content to their heart's desire. So if I'm configuring say NFS from a YaST web page, what else might I want to see on that page?: - breadcrumbs, to show where I am - links to related items (e.g. DNS config, routing) - links to related tools (e.g. to ping the NFS server, or look at it's exports list) - documentation - either links or javascript controlled blocks or tooltips etc etc - an area showing the history of NFS config changes (by the user and/or automatic system actions) - an area showing recent relevant log entries - a personal notes/wiki area so I can record any information I find useful when I'm doing this task (e.g "use lsof before unmounting" or a link to a web resource I find useful http://www.theregister.co.uk/odds/bofh/? :) Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh

29 Nov 29 Nov

01:18

On 11/28/2007 Dave Howorth wrote:

...

Billie Walsh wrote:

...
...
Through both these "new YaST" threads I have seen a lot of people that aren't happy with where things are. SO, they could make their own menus and put things where they want. "YaST" is just a container, much like a menu, that opens other "applications/modules" to actually do what your trying to do.

I think Billie's right. Allowing users to customise the navigation is a good idea. Of course, there always needs to be a standard/common way as well - for administrators to use, to describe in HOW-TOs etc.

There've also been a variety of opinions about whether to have icons, how many items should be visible, should non-installed items be visible etc. So it's clear the interface needs to be configurable.

Configurability usually results in extra squirly GUI code, so then I thought, why not construct the user interface as a web page - the same way most routers are controlled. Then a lot of display options can be controlled by CSS and people can rearrange menus and other content to their heart's desire.

Ah, someone else starting to think outside the box, or maybe I should say "Window". My only experience with "web page" configuration utilities have been through our router(s) and CUPS. It seems to work just fine on the router but I find CUPS to be terrible. Whatever...... The thing about a configurable "YaST" is that you will NEVER make everyone happy until every person has their own individual interface. Done the way they want it. That's an impossible task for the developers. SO, you make the interface configurable and they can move things around to suit themselves. Group things together as they want them. Have multiple links to modules in different groups if they want them. Bingo, they have their own interface. Individualized to suit themselves, and the way they work. I suppose it could be done now, IF you know how. All that would really be needed is to create links to the different modules in a new menu in KDE/Gnome/****. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith

09:14

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dave Howorth wrote:

...

Billie Walsh wrote:

<snip>

...

So if I'm configuring say NFS from a YaST web page, what else might I want to see on that page?:

There is already web based *NIX admin tool with webmin, but the IP on the this tool is a little murky. (I think SCO as caldera are involved somewhere here). Developing a web version for Yast might open some legal issues if not handled correctly, and I do not think that a design team would be happy with to develop with the constraint of not moving to close to the webmin model.

...

- breadcrumbs, to show where I am - links to related items (e.g. DNS config, routing) - links to related tools (e.g. to ping the NFS server, or look at it's exports list) - documentation - either links or javascript controlled blocks or tooltips etc etc - an area showing the history of NFS config changes (by the user and/or automatic system actions) - an area showing recent relevant log entries - a personal notes/wiki area so I can record any information I find useful when I'm doing this task (e.g "use lsof before unmounting" or a link to a web resource I find useful http://www.theregister.co.uk/odds/bofh/? :)

My god!... I am not really sure 101 ways to defenestrate your boss and related matters is OT...:-) BTW Before the someone misreads this, defenestration has nothing to do with body parts directly, more windows, high places, and falling... :-)

...

Cheers, Dave

- -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHToMKasN0sSnLmgIRAtkzAJ0VWStvycsmFR7nvY+kz9rgnrroCwCfddTM WaUJgTBHuy+FXC2QlzYDcv0= =4BoR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Druid

10:47

...

There is already web based *NIX admin tool with webmin, but the IP on the this tool is a little murky. (I think SCO as caldera are involved somewhere here). Developing a web version for Yast might open some legal issues if not handled correctly, and I do not think that a design team would be happy with to develop with the constraint of not moving to close to the webmin model.

What the?????? My eyes almost jumped out of my face when I read this. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Do you know the history of webmin? SCO are involved in somewhere? Wtf is that bizarre non-sense fud? Are you taking drugs? Can you show where they were involved? Can you point a reference? Might open some legal issues? If not handled correctly? What type of legal issues? Please specify. Are you a lawyer? Do you know whats the license of webmin? What are the constraints of moving or not moving to the webmin model? Do you know the wt toolkit they want to use in yast is ajax, while webmin is normal 1.0 web app? Have you ever used, actually? What does the design team have to do with this? What is the design team, btw? Design of what???? Seriously, please, please, please, if you want to ignore everything in this email, please keep this line: please, please, please do not talk about things you dont know, specially in this vague way. Do not make those statements if there isnt anyway you can back them. This is the same as doing FUD, this is no good, this is spreads wrong information. Please dont do it, I beg you. Do not talk about things you have not even slightly idea about what it is. The short text you wrote is meaningless, except for the times you simply state wrong information. I know its cool to participate and stuff, but dont talk about what you dont udnerstand, and dont spread fud, please. Thanks Marcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith

13:22

New subject: webmin and Caldera/SCO, and Novell (was Re: [opensuse] Second Try: Redesign of YaST Control Center).

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Druid wrote:

...

...
There is already web based *NIX admin tool with webmin, but the IP on the this tool is a little murky. (I think SCO as caldera are involved somewhere here). Developing a web version for Yast might open some legal issues if not handled correctly, and I do not think that a design team would be happy with to develop with the constraint of not moving to close to the webmin model.

What the?????? My eyes almost jumped out of my face when I read this.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Do you know the history of webmin? SCO are involved in somewhere? Wtf is that bizarre non-sense fud? Are you taking drugs? Can you show where they were involved? Can you point a reference?

Might open some legal issues? If not handled correctly? What type of legal issues? Please specify. Are you a lawyer?

Do you know whats the license of webmin? What are the constraints of moving or not moving to the webmin model?

<snip>

...

The short text you wrote is meaningless, except for the times you simply state wrong information. I know its cool to participate and stuff, but dont talk about what you dont udnerstand, and dont spread fud, please.

Thanks

Marcio

Firstly I am not talking about webmin itself, what I am talking about who would be in situation to query the status of a YaST webmin-like tool (and the purpose of such a query). Sometimes I think you need to get your brain in gear before attacking the keyboard :-) Also AFAIK, the status of all variants of the GPL (or any other OS licence ) has as of yet, not been fully tested in a court (i.e. a judge has made a ruling), under any jurisdiction. This would have been big news if it had happened and I think we would have noticed. There is a lawyer trotting the world tr Almost all GPL/OS licence disagreements have gone to settlement before a court can rule on the status of the agreement and until a court *actually* makes a ruling on the status of these licences in a particular jurisdiction their *actual* legal status in that jurisdiction is a moot point... (and there some differences in how different jurisdictions would view their status, and different opinions on those differences). reference http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/10/31/first_gpl_suit_settles/ There is a fair bit of precedent to the legal tactic of settling out of court to avoid the impact that losing in a court room would have (e.g. most notably the tobacco industry used this tactic), but the situation with GPL/OS licences does rather puzzle me,... I suspect in the face of companies with deep pockets and expensive lawyers, those with mounting legal costs and little resources tend to take the money.... Intellectual Property Rights (IP) and licences are somewhat different things, the former is about ownership of ideas, the latter is about terms of use. These are distinct, and it is possible that one could violate IP without directly violating a licence agreement on a particular product. As you will know Caldera/SCO do have a connection to the original webmin (the original author was employed by Caldera, who acquired the Unix side of SCO in 2000/2001) and for a time it was only available and supported through SCO/Caldera (and the original SCO Unix/Linux legal action did bring the status of the webmin core into doubt for a short time). It is now independent of this and has moved on. references: http://lwn.net/2000/0803/a/caldera-sco.php3 http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/35280.html I assume you are also aware that Novell have had the block (under chapter 11 protection) on their legal action against SCO lifted. A webmin-like YasT tool could open the possibility of opening a new line of defence/counter attack for SCO in this particular legal firefight. reference http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/11/28/novell_sco_to_court/ Last time I looked lawyers do not let little matters like facts get in the way of creating complications, and in general it is not too wise to hand over the horseshit to your enemy so he can pelt you with it.. - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHTr0zasN0sSnLmgIRAsJQAJ9Fz8c8XK0wIOm50SmlNVAfAU4c1ACfSAmK HXCiqNqjL8cmuIu8uV0KTsU= =GM54 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith

14:02

New subject: webmin and Caldera/SCO, and Novell (was Re: [opensuse] Second Try: Redesign of YaST Control Center).

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 G T Smith wrote:

...

Druid wrote:

<snip>

...

news if it had happened and I think we would have noticed. There is a lawyer trotting the world trying to get this done..

got distracted just before I sent it and did not finish sentence... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHTsZwasN0sSnLmgIRAtsuAKDmnurpGNwuN6W8QZ2a9leiPbQjlwCfUcIQ vu0uyRMjLHgeNC2VhWGCUOY= =JGdx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Druid

15:12

New subject: webmin and Caldera/SCO, and Novell (was Re: [opensuse] Second Try: Redesign of YaST Control Center).

...

Firstly I am not talking about webmin itself, what I am talking about who would be in situation to query the status of a YaST webmin-like tool (and the purpose of such a query). Sometimes I think you need to get your brain in gear before attacking the keyboard :-)

There are lots of tools availble like that, like ispconfig, sun cobalt control center (that turned into raqdevil for freebsd, and there is a linux variant, bluequartz) swat for samba, etc. Webinterfaces exist since a long time, I doubt any of those are concerned about "IP of webmin". Not to mention comercial tools, like cpanel and etc

...

Also AFAIK, the status of all variants of the GPL (or any other OS licence ) has as of yet, not been fully tested in a court (i.e. a judge has made a ruling), under any jurisdiction.

First, the webmin license is not GPL, its BSD like. Second, according to what you are saying we shouldnt be using linux, since its GPL, and it wasnt tested in court.

...

Almost all GPL/OS licence disagreements have gone to settlement before a court can rule on the status of the agreement and until a court *actually* makes a ruling on the status of these licences in a particular jurisdiction their *actual* legal status in that jurisdiction is a moot point... (and there some differences in how different jurisdictions would view their status, and different opinions on those differences).

What does this have to do with your FUD because the guy once worked for SCO (which I couldnt even determine if its true or not)? Is the license bsd like as a whole or does it have a clause saying only novell cant use it? Why would the guy do that if he doesnt even work for sco anymore? Why are you inventing this situation that doesnt exist?

...

I assume you are also aware that Novell have had the block (under chapter 11 protection) on their legal action against SCO lifted. A webmin-like YasT tool could open the possibility of opening a new line of defence/counter attack for SCO in this particular legal firefight.

Why? Is the case about webmin? Or novell using webmin? Illegal use of webmin? Are you a lawyer? And in the case you are, what does that have to do with unix, yast, novell or opensuse? Is webmin part of unix? In which version was it introduced? Is it in any posix revision? Does it have a standard system call? In which variant, berkeley, sysV, solaris? Xenix?

...

Last time I looked lawyers do not let little matters like facts get in the way of creating complications, and in general it is not too wise to hand over the horseshit to your enemy so he can pelt you with it..

Last time I looked you were creating conspiracy theories from thin air, and bringing an irrelevant topic for yast control center redesign and for the proposal of yast interface, with connections you dont even have any idea if they make sense or not. Marcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mike

15:35

On Thursday 29 November 2007 11:47, Druid wrote:

...

What the?????? My eyes almost jumped out of my face when I read this.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Do you know the history of webmin? SCO are involved in somewhere? Wtf is that bizarre non-sense fud? Are you taking drugs? Can you show where they were involved? Can you point a reference?

You might want to look around before shooting your mouth off. Take a look at this.. http://www.webmin.com/partners.html and notice that Caldera was the first host of webmin. Clicking on the link takes you to an SCO sponsored site. Isn't that amazing? I believe that the program was still sponsored until SCO officially took over, but the timeline isn't there. So, I'll ignore the rest of the posting as you didn't do your homework before running off at the mouth. -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 4:32pm up 105 days 21:04, 5 users, load average: 2.15, 2.14, 2.10 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

15:39

On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 04:35:37PM +0100, Mike wrote:

...

On Thursday 29 November 2007 11:47, Druid wrote:

...
What the?????? My eyes almost jumped out of my face when I read this.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Do you know the history of webmin? SCO are involved in somewhere? Wtf is that bizarre non-sense fud? Are you taking drugs? Can you show where they were involved? Can you point a reference?

You might want to look around before shooting your mouth off. Take a look at this.. http://www.webmin.com/partners.html and notice that Caldera was the first host of webmin. Clicking on the link takes you to an SCO sponsored site. Isn't that amazing? I believe that the program was still sponsored until SCO officially took over, but the timeline isn't there.

So, I'll ignore the rest of the posting as you didn't do your homework before running off at the mouth.

Caldera paid the webmin developer for some time and had this as their webbased administration tool. I however see no IP issues or other legal things. Ciao, Marcus (Ex Calderian;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Druid

16:13

...

You might want to look around before shooting your mouth off. Take a look at this.. http://www.webmin.com/partners.html and notice that Caldera was the first host of webmin. Clicking on the link takes you to an SCO sponsored site. Isn't that amazing? I believe that the program was still sponsored until SCO officially took over, but the timeline isn't there.

Ah, right. Lets close down all apps with webinterfaces then, boooo. Ah, of course, let us not forget of the people who worked for sco or caldera. Shoot in the head, or burning them, what do you think its more appropriate? Lets keep that logic. Lemme see, Sony starts with the same letter as SCO, dont buy stuff from them. Novell has six letters, same as webmin, so dont use webmin. My wallpaper is green, so dont forget to brin an umbrella tomorrow, because it will rain.

...

So, I'll ignore the rest of the posting as you didn't do your homework before running off at the mouth.

Thanks, Mike, for that and for your impressive uptime and amazing apps you are using, and now we all know that, and keep an eye in that load average, will ya. Regards Marcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth

19:57

On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 09:14 +0000, G T Smith wrote:

...

There is already web based *NIX admin tool with webmin

Thank you. I'd forgotten all about webmin. I tried using it a while ago and gave up for some reason. Probably because I discovered YaST :) I'll give the current version a spin and see whether it's like what I was suggesting. OT, the first YaST-like tool I used was SMIT and the advantages/disadvantages were much the same. When the magic worked, it was wonderful. When it didn't, it was much harder to figure out what had gone wrong than if you'd done it with command-line tools. IBM were trying to replace hundreds of command line tools with a single interface. But the reality was lots of bugs in the hundreds of little scripts that implemented the single interface. Oh, well. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith

26 Nov 26 Nov

17:49

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

After reading so many dozens of utterly off-topic posts in the first thread I gave up.

<snip>

...

Rather, it was about

The YaST Control Center

in particular the Qt version. This is the small, very basic, Qt-only (very little dependencies, in particular not to the entire YaST engine) application that starts YaST modules. Some people call it the YaST shell. Currently, it looks like this:

http://en.opensuse.org/Image:YaST_Control_Center.png

And THIS is what we want to change. THIS is what we want a radical new approach (or, at minimum, a radical new look).

So please, let's start over and PLEASE let's focus on the topic. We think community input is important. We think some of you out there might have a really great idea how we could do this control center thingy better.

We identified a number of problems with that old control center:

(1) There are too many icons in there - way more that can easily be navigated.

IBMs original CUA spec did define some still useful guidelines, e.g. one should not have navigate down more than three levels in a menu, a menu should be all on the display area etc. The really hard part is not the GUI design, it is the dialogue structure and design, and the semantics of the terms to be used. For a tool it is not how pretty a thing is it is more about how functional a thing is. Tabbing at the display window might be a good option as it offers a potential broad bottom base and would not alter what has been a highly successful layout too drastically. i.e menu switches through tab views displaying icon based windows, related to the tabs.. The problems really is not so much the number of entries on display but defining how to get to an entry in a meaningful manner. I think it needs to kept in mind that a change in cosmetic design that radically changes functionality is unlikely to be received well. This is a core tool ... so it also needs to be seen to improve functionality as well as visual appeal.. BTW I am one of the few that loathed the new(ish) KDE menu when I moved from 9.3 in 10.2 so I tend to have a rather conservative viewpoint on this...

...

(2) The groups don't always match users' expectations. (E.g., is firewall more related to security or to network?)

Is there any reason it should not appear under both? A design rule which states that each item should only be accessed from one location is possibly a little restrictive. As stated people tend have different expectations of where something should be kept and although something appearing in more than view may superficially appear confusing it may help many, especially in cases where the multiple locations are valid... (a "favourites" view also might be useful so one can access the bits that one uses regularly easily).

...

(3) It's hard for newbies to figure out what does what.

(3a) Sometimes it's hard to figure out the difference between modules.

Documentation, documentation, and documentation... Improved links to documentation would be always be welcome. Too many modules offer unexplained options, and an individual can be expert at one thing but a complete tyro at something else so "one size fits all" is not useful... The documentation side window in modules while useful is often very thin on detail, and have to load a module to read the documentation can lead to problems... a "Tell me more" button/icon option of some sort might be of use at all levels (maybe one which on repeated selections increases information detail)... <OT on/> With apologies.... A possible idea outside of YCC proper could be to introduce something along the lines of R1 (an early expert system used by what was then DEC to stop sales persons accepting orders for unworkable equipment combinations and configure workable setups).. A question and answer dialogue could help a new and inexperienced user get a working setup or find which module they need to use by asking questions about what they want to do in terms of what they comprehend.. In effect, documentation with a little intelligence... <OT off/> The main weakness of a GUI icon based interface is that it generally does not handle complexity well on its own (on its own it is best for situations where you are trying to make complex things seem simple ), and here there is a complex thing with no easy way to make it appear simple... also for many, choice is also confusing, especially if they do not understand the options... the combination of the two issues is rarely a happy one.. It is very difficult to convey complex information comprehensibly purely with pictograms, so a method of icon based navigation with appropriate contextual text information is probably really what is required. (Optional info bar at bottom triggered by mouse location maybe, a little text could go a long way... )

...

(4) It's often enough hard for expert to find things.

covered in point 2) and 3) really...

...

(5) It's not exactly pretty.

Does it have to be?... eye candy is often distracting and not really needed for a tool to do a job and can cause problems for people with visual problems, (and after all I have yet to see a plumber use a wrench with a ribbon tied around it) :-) If someone really wants to offer eye candy, I would suggest incorporating some sort of theme support... All it needs to be is functional, neat and tidy, it being absolutely clear what you need to do to navigate and having routes to find things which cover a wide range of expectations and a good description of those things when you find them... <snip>

...

Failing that, maybe somebody has a good idea how to present the modules traditionally in an icon view, but in a way that does not overwhelm everybody when the window opens (the "show all at once" approach) or that leaves the user searching for the right module at most times (the icon groups or even icon tree approach).

This is what that was all about. This is what we ask your opinions for.

CU

Unfortunately, if you ask and open ended question one tends to get an open ended response :-) - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHSwcyasN0sSnLmgIRAl3aAKCO243IaCaomtHrY0sndonyI9Yo5ACdFUFV MPkIZw1ISevjDBB2Ow1fk3Q= =/EEB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd

18:11

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

Rather, it was about

The YaST Control Center

in particular the Qt version.

I just read again the wiki page, including the survey and it's still not completely clear what you want. to be more precise, it's not clear what amount of work you are ready to do in the wanted direction. For example, when installing the distro, YaST displays the name of the things to setup as a list with the module name followed by the actual setup (or the proposed one). I specially like this because the proposed setup gives a clear view of the module usage. but making the ycc able to display this (for example as icons tooltips) is probably a great effort. in a totally different way, if you need only to rename the icons and sort them differently, this is pretty easy to do. So what do you want exactly? I noticed that the experts questionned in the survey did most of the work nicely. thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stanislav Visnovsky

27 Nov 27 Nov

14:50

Dňa Monday 26 November 2007 19:11:32 jdd ste napísal:

...

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...
Rather, it was about

The YaST Control Center

in particular the Qt version.

I just read again the wiki page, including the survey and it's still not completely clear what you want.

to be more precise, it's not clear what amount of work you are ready to do in the wanted direction.

For example, when installing the distro, YaST displays the name of the things to setup as a list with the module name followed by the actual setup (or the proposed one).

I specially like this because the proposed setup gives a clear view of the module usage.

but making the ycc able to display this (for example as icons tooltips) is probably a great effort.

Yes, but doable. I can imagine asking every module used already to write a short summary of the setup on the disk and it will be shown in the control center. If it's missing, the part is considered unconfigured and only a short summary of the module capability would be shown. The presentation of this information is more problematic. The best would be to provide this summary e.g. below the icon, but that might took too much space. Using a tooltip, or having a small check mark on the icon could be used as well. Stano -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bryen

15:06

On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 15:50 +0100, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:

...

Dňa Monday 26 November 2007 19:11:32 jdd ste napísal:

...
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...
Rather, it was about

The YaST Control Center

in particular the Qt version.

I just read again the wiki page, including the survey and it's still not completely clear what you want.

to be more precise, it's not clear what amount of work you are ready to do in the wanted direction.

For example, when installing the distro, YaST displays the name of the things to setup as a list with the module name followed by the actual setup (or the proposed one).

I specially like this because the proposed setup gives a clear view of the module usage.

but making the ycc able to display this (for example as icons tooltips) is probably a great effort.

Yes, but doable. I can imagine asking every module used already to write a short summary of the setup on the disk and it will be shown in the control center. If it's missing, the part is considered unconfigured and only a short summary of the module capability would be shown.

The presentation of this information is more problematic. The best would be to provide this summary e.g. below the icon, but that might took too much space. Using a tooltip, or having a small check mark on the icon could be used as well.

Stano

A tooltip would be fine. But be careful, as this discussion is about improving the usability of YCC. Usability includes people of all types including those with visual impairments. If a small check box is the decided upon consensus, then it needs to be easily visible to those who have visual impairments. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jason Craig

26 Nov 26 Nov

18:12

Now I finally feel like participating in this thread... Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

We identified a number of problems with that old control center:

(1) There are too many icons in there - way more that can easily be navigated.

(2) The groups don't always match users' expectations. (E.g., is firewall more related to security or to network?)

I think that the best solution to these three problems are a tree structure. People (here and in the card sort study) have expressed confusion over why a network device is not hardware. Easy fix, you can keep network devices as a node, just move it under hardware. The other categories under hardware would be things like I/O, Multimedia (maybe), Wireless Devices, and Hardware Info; although it is now unclear what the difference between a "modem" and "bluetooth" that makes one a "network device" and one not. I think the card study really helps a lot to figure out where in a tree structure all the items should go, and with a fairly deep tree, node duplication does not add nearly as much clutter as a flat or 2-level tree (current structure), so not everything has to go in one place and one place only. So at the root, you probably will have something like four, maybe five nodes (Software, Hardware, System, Security/Users, Misc/Information). Consider the consolidation of nodes, and some key duplications in certain areas, and you will probably end up with a similar number of leaf nodes as we have right now, but in a structure that quickly moves you from wide categories to specific modules.

...

(3) It's hard for newbies to figure out what does what.

(3a) Sometimes it's hard to figure out the difference between modules.

An approach for newbies can spawn almost directly from the tree structure. I've heard mention of "wizards" before. Have a button or category or something that says "I'm a Beginner...", and from the outset, tell the beginning user that some of these system settings can "break" their system if they are not set right, and that they should not set anything unless/until they know what the setting is/does. Then you can proceed in a tutorial mode; ask "Do you want to..." and give the user a list of say five to ten of the most commonly used tasks (probably stuff like software management, date and time, graphics or mouse settings) and one more that says "something else". If they select the common ones, great, the common case is fast! If they want something else, the "wizard" can proceed (probably in the same tree structure as they would be organized in the YCC) to ask questions like "Do you want to add/remove/configure your software or applications? Would you like to set systems settings like date/time, power settings?" Examples are good for newbies I think because sometimes a category like "System" doesn't tell a newbie what it's going to do, but an expert can probably figure out the types of things that are going to be in that category (or already knows whats there).

...

(4) It's often enough hard for expert to find things.

A tree structure, if kept organized, helps here too. As someone noted earlier in the thread, "design constraints" would also help. If you give a (rough) limit of how many leaf nodes can be children of a single node, then when there are too many children you must find common threads between different modules and use those to group the modules. I think this evolves into a structure that the expert can navigate with the greatest of ease. After all, at it's basis, Linux/UNIX is all about files and folders. Everything is a file, and these files get grouped together with folders, and if an expert Linux user doesn't understand the file/folder paradigm, perhaps he is no expert.

...

(5) It's not exactly pretty.

Seeing what's coming out of you guys/gals at Novell, I don't think anyone has to worry about this one. Besides, as long as its not ugly enough to scare off those accustomed to "Windows by Disney" and the new "Windows by Pixar", appearance is secondary. :) --Jason -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth

27 Nov 27 Nov

10:27

Jason Craig wrote:

...

Now I finally feel like participating in this thread...

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...
We identified a number of problems with that old control center:

(1) There are too many icons in there - way more that can easily be navigated.

(2) The groups don't always match users' expectations. (E.g., is firewall more related to security or to network?)

I think that the best solution to these three problems are a tree structure. People (here and in the card sort study) have expressed confusion over why a network device is not hardware. Easy fix, you can keep network devices as a node, just move it under hardware.

It's not a tree. It's people's fixation on trees that makes large menu systems difficult to use. A better solution is a *lattice*. There can be more than one route to a particular action. To illustrate with the network card example, if they follow your suggestion and move it under hardware in a tree, there will immediately be objections - "why isn't a network device listed under networking?" - and those objections are perfectly reasonable in my view. A networking device is *both* a hardware device and a networking component. A keyboard is a hardware device, part of the locale, and part of the X window system. It should be possible to reach actions that affect it via any route. It's easy to reduce icon clutter - don't display them! Apart from some things like keyboards and mice where a pictorial representation is natural, icons add little value. What's the natural picture of a web server or a dns server? How do you clearly differentiate all the components of the graphical display system? Answer - text. Just my 2p worth. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

26 Nov 26 Nov

22:19

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

After reading so many dozens of utterly off-topic posts in the first thread I gave up.

The first thread was not meant to be about generic wishes about YaST and related. It was not about a complete rewrite of everything. It was not about what could be improved in various individual YaST modules. It was not about bugs that could be reported with Bugzilla. It was not about dropping the ncurses text mode (we don't plan to do anything like that).

Rather, it was about

The YaST Control Center

in particular the Qt version. This is the small, very basic, Qt-only (very little dependencies, in particular not to the entire YaST engine) application that starts YaST modules. Some people call it the YaST shell. Currently, it looks like this:

http://en.opensuse.org/Image:YaST_Control_Center.png

And THIS is what we want to change. THIS is what we want a radical new approach (or, at minimum, a radical new look).

So please, let's start over and PLEASE let's focus on the topic. We think community input is important. We think some of you out there might have a really great idea how we could do this control center thingy better.

We identified a number of problems with that old control center:

(1) There are too many icons in there - way more that can easily be navigated.

(2) The groups don't always match users' expectations. (E.g., is firewall more related to security or to network?)

Put the firewall icon and it's hook in BOTH places. Problem solved.

...

(3) It's hard for newbies to figure out what does what.

Unfortunately, there is no magical cure for a lack of knowledge other than the person going out and obtaining that knowledge. Every time I replace my car, I have to learn a whole new system of steering-column controls -- and very much so if the car is from a different automaker than the one before it.

...

(3a) Sometimes it's hard to figure out the difference between modules.

(4) It's often enough hard for expert to find things.

(5) It's not exactly pretty.

When I'm trying to get something done, that's the least of my concerns -- just as long as it's not in a color combination which is hard to read (like, say red text on a blue or green background) or otherwise an annoyance to the point of anger.

...

Back when we designed that control center, we figured it would do its job fairly well. But that was when we only had a small number of modules. And eye candy was less readily available from the underlying toolkits. Time has changed since then. I counted no less than 119 YaST-related .desktop files on my machine (not counting the groups files). That corresponds to 119 icons that have to be presented somehow. That just doesn't scale any more with the old control center approach.

So in the ideal case we would like to have a completely new approach. This is what that "radical change" was all about.

Maybe there is a different way than just placing a lot of icons in a window (with or without groups) and let the user figure out how to deal with it. Carefully taking care, of course, of all kinds of users, newbies as well as experts.

There could be some things done differently, say General Networking, and then, things like NIS could be put in something like "Large/Commercial Site Networking" which would indicate to the newbie at home that NOTHING in there is applicable to his home set up -- even if he has 5 computers on his home network. [An additional comment in the sidebar could be: "If you do not understand the things in here, SuSE recommends that you leave them alone. These are tools for experienced, professional administrators in large-scale commercial, academic, etc. environments"

...

Failing that, maybe somebody has a good idea how to present the modules traditionally in an icon view, but in a way that does not overwhelm everybody when the window opens (the "show all at once" approach) or that leaves the user searching for the right module at most times (the icon groups or even icon tree approach).

This is what that was all about. This is what we ask your opinions for.

Basically, what you're saying is, the tree needs to be modified. I have no argument with that. Perhaps the solution is more main branches, and/or to add sub-branches within the main branch. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Norrbring

27 Nov 27 Nov

07:53

Aaron Kulkis skrev:

...

...
(3) It's hard for newbies to figure out what does what.

Unfortunately, there is no magical cure for a lack of knowledge other than the person going out and obtaining that knowledge.

THANK YOU!

...

...
(5) It's not exactly pretty.

Who cares really, as long as it does what it's supposed to do? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

ianseeks

26 Nov 26 Nov

23:44

I'm too tired to list all changes i was thinking about but here's a few ideas to throw into the pot - maybe a bit old hat or MS centric - Could all the main sections in the left column be Tabs?

...

We identified a number of problems with that old control center:

(1) There are too many icons in there - way more that can easily be navigated.

Yep, merge a couple of sections and only show icons for items installed. e.g. Miscellaneous section - rename to System Logs: Move "Release Notes" into the Software section Move "Vendor Driver CD" to Hardware/Drivers section Software Section: Group the "Online Update" "Automatic Online Update" and Online Update Config" programs together Hardware Section - rename to Hardware/Drivers: Move Network Devices into Hardware section Don't show icons for hardware that is not in the system, create an "Add hardware" icon that lauches a module that lists all the possibities System section - rename to System Services: Move "Network Services" into this section Don't show icons for services which are not in the system, create an "Add Service" icon that lauches a moule that lists all the possibities Group related icons together Security and Users Section - Split into 2 sections a) Security and Remote mangement b) User management: Move "Novell AppArmor" into the Security section Move "VNC" into the Security section Move "Kerberos" into the Security section User Section: User Management Group Management Sudo (?)

...

(2) The groups don't always match users' expectations. (E.g., is firewall more related to security or to network?)

(3) It's hard for newbies to figure out what does what.

(3a) Sometimes it's hard to figure out the difference between modules.

(4) It's often enough hard for expert to find things.

(5) It's not exactly pretty.

Back when we designed that control center, we figured it would do its job fairly well. But that was when we only had a small number of modules. And eye candy was less readily available from the underlying toolkits. Time has changed since then. I counted no less than 119 YaST-related .desktop files on my machine (not counting the groups files). That corresponds to 119 icons that have to be presented somehow. That just doesn't scale any more with the old control center approach.

So in the ideal case we would like to have a completely new approach. This is what that "radical change" was all about.

Maybe there is a different way than just placing a lot of icons in a window (with or without groups) and let the user figure out how to deal with it. Carefully taking care, of course, of all kinds of users, newbies as well as experts.

Failing that, maybe somebody has a good idea how to present the modules traditionally in an icon view, but in a way that does not overwhelm everybody when the window opens (the "show all at once" approach) or that leaves the user searching for the right module at most times (the icon groups or even icon tree approach).

This is what that was all about. This is what we ask your opinions for.

CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

27 Nov 27 Nov

05:45

ianseeks wrote:

...

I'm too tired to list all changes i was thinking about but here's a few ideas to throw into the pot - maybe a bit old hat or MS centric - Could all the main sections in the left column be Tabs?

...
We identified a number of problems with that old control center:

(1) There are too many icons in there - way more that can easily be navigated.

Yep, merge a couple of sections and only show icons for items installed. e.g.

Miscellaneous section - rename to System Logs: Move "Release Notes" into the Software section Move "Vendor Driver CD" to Hardware/Drivers section

I would prefer that items not installed have greyed-out icons rather than just removing them. That would let any knowledgeable administrator know that the item is available and can be installed.

...

Software Section: Group the "Online Update" "Automatic Online Update" and Online Update Config" programs together

Definitely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jason Craig

20:09

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

I would prefer that items not installed have greyed-out icons rather than just removing them. That would let any knowledgeable administrator know that the item is available and can be installed.

Great idea. --Jason -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider

20:36

Jason Craig wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...
I would prefer that items not installed have greyed-out icons rather than just removing them. That would let any knowledgeable administrator know that the item is available and can be installed.

Great idea.

Have it greyed out but allow a click on it to launch an install dialog. Ken -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

ianseeks

28 Nov 28 Nov

00:13

...

I would prefer that items not installed have greyed-out icons rather than just removing them. That would let any knowledgeable administrator know that the item is available and can be installed.

I was thinking of a set up for new users. Greyed out icons would be more confusing and as cluttered as it is now. An icon should only appear to show something that is there. A knowledgable user would know whether or not he/she had, for example, NIS installed and if they didn't have it installed they would know that they would have to install it. Thats why i suggested the "Add Service/Harware" option, once this is selected it could then list the items that could be installed. regards ian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis

00:52

ianseeks wrote:

...

...
I would prefer that items not installed have greyed-out icons rather than just removing them. That would let any knowledgeable administrator know that the item is available and can be installed.

I was thinking of a set up for new users. Greyed out icons would be more confusing and as cluttered as it is now. An icon should only appear to show something that is there. A knowledgable user would know whether or not he/she had, for example, NIS installed and if they didn't have it installed they would know that they would have to install it.

NIS is a poor example, because it is long-established (20 years old) software. An icon that just plain old doesn't even appear doesn't help an admin that some NEW software (say, yet another virtualization, or something else that we don't even have today. Basically, the greyed-out icon is a way advertising new features, without making everyone read a big book which is 98% identical to the previous book.

...

Thats why i suggested the "Add Service/Harware" option, once this is selected it could then list the items that could be installed.

But then you can't see what you already have installed, for example, a user goes and sees a web server, and decides to install it...but does't realize that there's one or two OTEHR web servers already installed -- seeing "XYZ Web Server" sitting there by itself will prompt the uninitiated to think, "Hey, I didn't install the Web Server software" -- not realizing that, say, Apache is already installed, and possibly even enabled, and any half-way intelligent packaging is going to default to the web-server looking to /srv/www ... now you've got two web servers in contention for the same resources... and at boot time, a race condtion develops, and the observed behavior depends on which one grabs the port first, Apache or XYZ. And then the poor sot can't figure out why some times, his configuration takes effect, and other times it doesn't. Basically, seperating installed software from software that isn't is just inviting all sorts of problems with those who are new to SuSE.

...

regards

ian

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Russell Jones

30 Nov 30 Nov

13:25

...

ianseeks wrote:

...
...
I would prefer that items not installed have greyed-out icons rather than just removing them. That would let any knowledgeable administrator know that the item is available and can be installed.

I was thinking of a set up for new users. Greyed out icons would be more confusing and as cluttered as it is now. An icon should only appear to show something that is there. A knowledgable user would know whether or not he/she had, for example, NIS installed and if they didn't have it installed they would know that they would have to install it.

NIS is a poor example, because it is long-established (20 years old) software.

An icon that just plain old doesn't even appear doesn't help an admin that some NEW software (say, yet another virtualization, or something else that we don't even have today. Basically, the greyed-out icon is a way advertising new features, without making everyone read a big book which is 98% identical to the previous book. Further, one could have an option to filter out the grey icons. And they

Aaron Kulkis wrote: probably wouldn't be displayed in "beginner" mode, should such a thing come to exist. Russell Jones -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (25)

Aaron Kulkis
Anders Norrbring
Benji Weber
Billie Walsh
Bryen
Carlos E. R.
Clayton
Dave Howorth
Dave Howorth
Druid
G T Smith
Gabriel .
ianseeks
Jason Craig
jdd
Ken Schneider
Magnus Boman
Marcus Meissner
Mike
Philippe Landau
Russell Jones
Stanislav Visnovsky
Stefan Hundhammer
Stephan Hegel
Will Stephenson