Hi Folks, It would seem that dump still doesn't grok reiserfs. This could be a major problem, a filesystem isn't worth a fart in a windstorm if it can't be saved to tape. I don't consider tar or dd to be acceptable alternatives. Please tell me it isn't so? Regards, Lew Wolfgang
Why isn't tar acceptable? Veritas makes a ton of money on NetBackup... which is tar based. There are actually a number of advantages to using tar over dump, especially with REALLY large file systems (i.e. not having to have gigs of RAM in order to build an inode tree.) Tar and cpio are both perfectly fine. dd I would only use as a last resort. - Herman "Lewis E. Wolfgang" wrote:
Hi Folks,
It would seem that dump still doesn't grok reiserfs. This could be a major problem, a filesystem isn't worth a fart in a windstorm if it can't be saved to tape. I don't consider tar or dd to be acceptable alternatives.
Please tell me it isn't so?
Regards, Lew Wolfgang
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Hi Herman, I thought cpio and typed dd.... I come from the old BSD 4.2 days when dump was the only way to do incremental backups. I recall that tar can't restore certain things, maybe stuff in /dev? Certainly in Sun Solaris, tar doesn't cut the mustard. Are you saying that tar will backup and restore full root (/) partitions? If so, can tar be used to emulate the dump-levels that dump uses for incremental backups? Does cpio do what is needed? Incremental? Special files? My current requirement is to replace a Sun Enterprise 4000 with a Athlon 1200-MHz system running SuSE 7.1 The system is a web/ftp/smtp server that will live outside our firewalls. We will maintain a full system image on an inside system, so dump/restore isn't needed for this particular project and Reiserfs will probably work. My concern is for deployment of 7.1 on our desktops and servers, where tape backup is an absolute requirement. Ext2 will certainly work, and does. Thanks, Lew Wolfgang SPAWARSYSCEN San Diego On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Herman Knief wrote:
Why isn't tar acceptable? Veritas makes a ton of money on NetBackup... which is tar based. There are actually a number of advantages to using tar over dump, especially with REALLY large file systems (i.e. not having to have gigs of RAM in order to build an inode tree.) Tar and cpio are both perfectly fine. dd I would only use as a last resort.
- Herman
"Lewis E. Wolfgang" wrote:
Hi Folks,
It would seem that dump still doesn't grok reiserfs. This could be a major problem, a filesystem isn't worth a fart in a windstorm if it can't be saved to tape. I don't consider tar or dd to be acceptable alternatives.
Please tell me it isn't so?
Regards, Lew Wolfgang
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Well, as far as tar doing incrementals... tar itself does not, but that's where things like Amanda (U. Maryland) and NetBackup (Veritas - big in the Sun community) come in. They are basically wrappers for tar (I believe Amanda can be config'd to do cpio as well... someone correct me if I am wrong) that handle the scheduling and track the files that are archived. As for the functionality of cpio... realize that RPM package format is basically cpio.
From the aspect of backing up desktops... why bother. Make sure your users save important files to a main server. The desktops become expendible and can be rebuilt or replaced at will. If you haven't done so already... I would seriously look at Alice or cfengine for generating desktops. I am vaguely familiar with SPAWARS (having been a former gov't contractor) and can imagine the environment you must support. Do yourself a favor... go buy a nice fast file server (I may be able to sell a clustered NetApp 760 real soon) and make the desktops a bunch of clones (plus they are cheaper to buy and maintain if you don't need a bunch of local storage.)
- Herman "Lewis E. Wolfgang" wrote:
Hi Herman,
I thought cpio and typed dd....
I come from the old BSD 4.2 days when dump was the only way to do incremental backups. I recall that tar can't restore certain things, maybe stuff in /dev? Certainly in Sun Solaris, tar doesn't cut the mustard.
Are you saying that tar will backup and restore full root (/) partitions? If so, can tar be used to emulate the dump-levels that dump uses for incremental backups?
Does cpio do what is needed? Incremental? Special files?
My current requirement is to replace a Sun Enterprise 4000 with a Athlon 1200-MHz system running SuSE 7.1 The system is a web/ftp/smtp server that will live outside our firewalls. We will maintain a full system image on an inside system, so dump/restore isn't needed for this particular project and Reiserfs will probably work. My concern is for deployment of 7.1 on our desktops and servers, where tape backup is an absolute requirement. Ext2 will certainly work, and does.
Thanks, Lew Wolfgang SPAWARSYSCEN San Diego
On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Herman Knief wrote:
Why isn't tar acceptable? Veritas makes a ton of money on NetBackup... which is tar based. There are actually a number of advantages to using tar over dump, especially with REALLY large file systems (i.e. not having to have gigs of RAM in order to build an inode tree.) Tar and cpio are both perfectly fine. dd I would only use as a last resort.
- Herman
"Lewis E. Wolfgang" wrote:
Hi Folks,
It would seem that dump still doesn't grok reiserfs. This could be a major problem, a filesystem isn't worth a fart in a windstorm if it can't be saved to tape. I don't consider tar or dd to be acceptable alternatives.
Please tell me it isn't so?
Regards, Lew Wolfgang
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Note that with the tar command you've got options like mtime atime, so you
can select files with several criteria.. I think you can deal with those
option to make what you want.
HTH
Bests
Pascal MiQUET
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis E. Wolfgang"
Hi Herman,
I thought cpio and typed dd....
I come from the old BSD 4.2 days when dump was the only way to do incremental backups. I recall that tar can't restore certain things, maybe stuff in /dev? Certainly in Sun Solaris, tar doesn't cut the mustard.
Are you saying that tar will backup and restore full root (/) partitions? If so, can tar be used to emulate the dump-levels that dump uses for incremental backups?
Does cpio do what is needed? Incremental? Special files?
My current requirement is to replace a Sun Enterprise 4000 with a Athlon 1200-MHz system running SuSE 7.1 The system is a web/ftp/smtp server that will live outside our firewalls. We will maintain a full system image on an inside system, so dump/restore isn't needed for this particular project and Reiserfs will probably work. My concern is for deployment of 7.1 on our desktops and servers, where tape backup is an absolute requirement. Ext2 will certainly work, and does.
Thanks, Lew Wolfgang SPAWARSYSCEN San Diego
On Sun, 4 Mar 2001, Herman Knief wrote:
Why isn't tar acceptable? Veritas makes a ton of money on NetBackup... which is tar based. There are actually a number of advantages to using tar over dump, especially with REALLY large file systems (i.e. not having to have gigs of RAM in order to build an inode tree.) Tar and cpio are both perfectly fine. dd I would only use as a last resort.
- Herman
"Lewis E. Wolfgang" wrote:
Hi Folks,
It would seem that dump still doesn't grok reiserfs. This could be a major problem, a filesystem isn't worth a fart in a windstorm if it can't be saved to tape. I don't consider tar or dd to be acceptable alternatives.
Please tell me it isn't so?
Regards, Lew Wolfgang
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Hi Folks, Thanks to Herman and Pascal for their comments. I don't think that tar will remove files that have been deleted by their users between dumps the way that dump will. Thus, I don't think that I can reconstruct an exact image of a filesystem the way I can with dump/restore. I know the value of diskless desktops, we've been using them here since 1986. (Sun 3-690 and 3-M systems). Sun's Autoclient package even boosted performance by using local disks as cache. The desktops are interchangeable and work fairly well. (Alas, Sun is dropping Autoclient as of Solaris 8.) Our 8-processor Sun Enterprise 4000 supports about 100 users and has about 500-GB of disk storage. Tar is fine but it can't compare with good old dump/restore. I can't plan on replacing the 4000 with Linux based Athlon systems until dump's future is assured. Ext2 would work, but I think that Reiserfs would be a better choice. I'd rather not have to pay extra for a backup/restore system. I've been using dump with my own wrapper scripts since 1988. I just have to load a 7-tape changer once per week and I'm covered. I'm lazy.... Of course, management here would rather that we submit to the "Borg" and install Win-2K! I never liked being assimilated! Regards, Lew Wolfgang SPAWARSYSCEN San Diego
I come from the old BSD 4.2 days when dump was the only way to do incremental backups. I recall that tar can't restore certain things, maybe stuff in /dev? Certainly in Sun Solaris, tar doesn't cut the mustard.
Lewis, I don't *think* that's the case any more- even in Solaris. I've restored stuff from tar that it used to barf on (15 years ago... :). But I agree, I think dump is a better program for backups. For one thing, there aren't a lot of potentially confusing and error prone options to remember. My backup command looks like: /sbin/dump 0auf /dev/nst0 $partition With tar, you have to set up your own system of remembering what date you last dumped (for the --after-date option) and you might want to remember not to traverse partitions (if you backup on a partition-by-partition basis). Dump also understands the structure of the disk, so it doesn't traverse the filesystem in the way that tar is forced to, making its catalogueing process much quicker (without doing things like touching atime). And finally, dump keeps a catalog at the beginning, allowing for such niceties as "restore i". That said, gnu tar's builtin mtime and ctime checking options make it a much better option than tar ever was for backups.
Are you saying that tar will backup and restore full root (/) partitions? If so, can tar be used to emulate the dump-levels that dump uses for incremental backups? -- -Mike suse-list@Linux.Schwager.com -o) Go to www.forsitesolutions.com to read Linux /\\ "Guides for Reasonably Intelligent People" _\_v The list will grow as I do.
On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Michael Schwager wrote:
I come from the old BSD 4.2 days when dump was the only way to do incremental backups. I recall that tar can't restore certain things, maybe stuff in /dev? Certainly in Sun Solaris, tar doesn't cut the mustard.
<snip>
Dump also understands the structure of the disk, so it doesn't traverse the filesystem in the way that tar is forced to, making its catalogueing
As I understand from reading the reiserfs list @ http://www.namesys.com , dump is not compatible with reiserfs because of the way dump understands the disk structure. I'm not sure if this is a reiserfs problem that will eventually be eliminated, or if dump needs to be rewritten to accomodate reiserfs. Tar works fine with reiserfs. There is supposed to be a script on the reiserfs ftp site that is a drop-in replacement for dump (the original dump is moved to another directory) that will take command line options and use tar to complete the operation. (Not all dump features are implemented.) Christopher Reimer
Dump also understands the structure of the disk, so it doesn't traverse the filesystem in the way that tar is forced to, ... As I understand from reading the reiserfs list @ http://www.namesys.com , dump is not compatible with reiserfs because of the way dump understands the disk structure. I'm not sure if this is a reiserfs problem that will eventually be eliminated, or if dump needs to be rewritten to accomodate reiserfs. Tar works fine with reiserfs.
This is because Tar uses the filesystem: open (2), stat (2), etc. You can open, create, read and write files without knowing what kind of filesystem lies beneath... so long as the kernel can read it. On the other hand, dump marches through the inode table, reading blocks of data off the disk. Since it uses functions specifically geared towards the filesystem, it would need to know the reiserfs in order to be used on the reiserfs. So dump would need to be rewritten. That's why, for example, Solaris doesn't have a dump command. It has ufsdump, since Solaris uses the UFS filesystem. Dump needed to be modified to work with that filesystem.
There is supposed to be a script on the reiserfs ftp site that is a drop-in replacement for dump (the original dump is moved to another directory) that will take command line options and use tar to complete the operation. (Not all dump features are implemented.) -- -Mike suse-list@Linux.Schwager.com -o) Go to www.forsitesolutions.com to read Linux /\\ "Guides for Reasonably Intelligent People" _\_v The list will grow as I do.
hi, my few cents on this :
With tar, you have to set up your own system of remembering what date you last dumped (for the --after-date option) and you might want to remember ......
well, you can always use the output of an command (e.g. date) as an argument inside shellscripts (example "mkdir 'date'-backup") date is the command and the '' (two single quotes, not one double qoute ! )around this means that its output is used as the argumet. so you can easy create dirs/files/etc within a script depending upon you time/date of the computer (or timeserver...). then we have grep / sed for handling strings, and mysql as a free database. all that can plug easy together over a shell script (at least with bash). greets, chris -- visit me at http://mamalala.de ICQ-> NICK: chrisk ->UIN: 108069244 (not always online.....)
my few cents on this :
With tar, you have to set up your own system of remembering what date you last dumped (for the --after-date option) and you might want to remember ... well, you can always use the output of an command (e.g. date) as an argument inside shellscripts (example "mkdir 'date'-backup") date is the command and the '' (two single quotes, not one double qoute ! )around
Just to clarify, that should be two single back-quotes, not the apostrophe symbol. In other words, this:` instead of this:'
this means that its output is used as the argumet. so you can easy create dirs/files/etc within a script depending upon you time/date of the computer (or timeserver...). then we have grep / sed for handling strings, and mysql as a free database. all that can plug easy together over a shell script (at least with bash).
This is what I like to avoid by using dump. No need to plug, just use the one program. -- -Mike suse-list@Linux.Schwager.com -o) Go to www.forsitesolutions.com to read Linux /\\ "Guides for Reasonably Intelligent People" _\_v The list will grow as I do.
I finally got my 7.1!!! I am soooo happy! I went to BestBuy which has 7.1 personal but still has professional on order, so I took the 49.99 rain check and went to CompUSA and got it for the 50.00$ I must say its been the best 50$ I have spent so far!! I must first say that SuSE did a wonderful job! YaST2 is great, picked up most of my things right off, including setup of my network printer! DVD Install went flawlessly and could not have been happier with it! But I ran into a few problems with the CD Install which I will go over quicklike! On first try when it tried to install the UDF package, it would lock the machine (CD #2) I had to manually remove that from the packages to get further in the install. Later on the CD would spin repeatedly and just would not take CD #2 again... I checked Ctrl-Alt F8 to see what was going on and this showed... hdc: cdrom_decode_status: error=0x34 : status=0x51 [ DriveReady SeekComplete Error } Repeat the DriveReady error a few times and reset and repeat again. Finally it just gave up and asked for the 3rd CD and went on with the install. One of my 7.0 LiveEval CDs did that on my laptop before I did the install on that (Compaq 1220 Presario) I dunno the techs on either CDROM since its been so long since I got the laptop and installed the one in the desktop. It recognized my onboard soundcard which was ok if I used it hehe, but didnt take my Ensoniq sound card and insisted it was a Sound Blaster of some sorts, I had to use alsaconf to get that to work. My EtherExpress 16 NIC didnt detect either, but showed when I did the manual setup. After that I had to install Enlightenment manually with yast on CD #2 cause KDE just dont float my boat (Sorry personal opinion there). The XSetup was strange, It installed XFree 4.0.2 and I had no clue the XF86Config file was in /etc/X11/ and it threw me off, XaX2 did not take on my wheel mouse (generic) and I had to add the Option ZAxis.... to it to get it to work. looking at the /etc/XF86Config it didnt look like a 4.x.x conf file, and of course didnt take any change it made to it. I had to use xf86config4 to find the /etc/X11 config directory. SaX2 also bungled a bit on the resolution... Gave me a decent size at first then the screen would fuxx (static like) when I moved the mouse clicked windows etc. SO I dropped the resolution down one size and that fixed it. Usage of xf86config4 manually to configure everything gave me a GREAT resolution and allowed me to fix my mouse, no pointer section from SaX2 for my mouse at all. After adding the ZAxis and Buttons lines everything is working great so far. Granted I had fun working through these small obsticals, and really love the new changes, especially the lilo boot screen, that just ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!! 2.4 works great, no problems and took like a dream even on an upgrade! The manuals are great, the pin is a wonderful addition to my vest at work (I got about 3 SuSE stickers on my name badge LOL). It was worth every penny of my 50$ Just to think I was feeling left out in the dark a few days ago. Thank you SuSE!!!!!!!!! Robert Davies
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Glad you liked you liked it. Its defiantly the best Distro out there. most others will be hard pushed now. Do not forget the books. The Configuration part is cool, always wanted to use gpg :-). Now I am... Although thats not to say there is not a lot of work out there still to do. But I find it fun. Matt On Sunday 04 March 2001 23:27, phantasm wrote:
I finally got my 7.1!!! I am soooo happy! I went to BestBuy which has 7.1 personal but still has professional on order, so I took the 49.99 rain check and went to CompUSA and got it for the 50.00$ I must say its been the best 50$ I have spent so far!!
I must first say that SuSE did a wonderful job! YaST2 is great, picked up most of my things right off, including setup of my network printer!
DVD Install went flawlessly and could not have been happier with it!
But I ran into a few problems with the CD Install which I will go over quicklike!
On first try when it tried to install the UDF package, it would lock the machine (CD #2) I had to manually remove that from the packages to get further in the install.
Later on the CD would spin repeatedly and just would not take CD #2 again... I checked Ctrl-Alt F8 to see what was going on and this showed...
hdc: cdrom_decode_status: error=0x34
: status=0x51 [ DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
Repeat the DriveReady error a few times and reset and repeat again. Finally it just gave up and asked for the 3rd CD and went on with the install. One of my 7.0 LiveEval CDs did that on my laptop before I did the install on that (Compaq 1220 Presario) I dunno the techs on either CDROM since its been so long since I got the laptop and installed the one in the desktop.
It recognized my onboard soundcard which was ok if I used it hehe, but didnt take my Ensoniq sound card and insisted it was a Sound Blaster of some sorts, I had to use alsaconf to get that to work.
My EtherExpress 16 NIC didnt detect either, but showed when I did the manual setup.
After that I had to install Enlightenment manually with yast on CD #2 cause KDE just dont float my boat (Sorry personal opinion there).
The XSetup was strange, It installed XFree 4.0.2 and I had no clue the XF86Config file was in /etc/X11/ and it threw me off, XaX2 did not take on my wheel mouse (generic) and I had to add the Option ZAxis.... to it to get it to work. looking at the /etc/XF86Config it didnt look like a 4.x.x conf file, and of course didnt take any change it made to it. I had to use xf86config4 to find the /etc/X11 config directory.
SaX2 also bungled a bit on the resolution... Gave me a decent size at first then the screen would fuxx (static like) when I moved the mouse clicked windows etc. SO I dropped the resolution down one size and that fixed it. Usage of xf86config4 manually to configure everything gave me a GREAT resolution and allowed me to fix my mouse, no pointer section from SaX2 for my mouse at all.
After adding the ZAxis and Buttons lines everything is working great so far.
Granted I had fun working through these small obsticals, and really love the new changes, especially the lilo boot screen, that just ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
2.4 works great, no problems and took like a dream even on an upgrade!
The manuals are great, the pin is a wonderful addition to my vest at work (I got about 3 SuSE stickers on my name badge LOL). It was worth every penny of my 50$
Just to think I was feeling left out in the dark a few days ago.
Thank you SuSE!!!!!!!!! Robert Davies -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE6o0D9IFP6LJ6vo8YRArT0AKCNdKBkIAFJOBbAWeQrPbDaSvbr5gCgi5Wv 6pnT7XyzouBu1Y3L3BhiLfY= =7McS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Monday 05 March 2001 01:32, you wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Glad you liked you liked it. Its defiantly the best Distro out there. most others will be hard pushed now.
Do not forget the books. The Configuration part is cool, always wanted to use gpg :-). Now I am...
DEFINATELY!!! Don't pull a "Kreps" and arrogantly not read the configuration manuals that come with SuSE. Espeically 7.1 because so much has changed. Don't ASSuME anything! JLK
Although thats not to say there is not a lot of work out there still to do. But I find it fun.
Matt
On Sunday 04 March 2001 23:27, phantasm wrote:
I finally got my 7.1!!! I am soooo happy! I went to BestBuy which has 7.1 personal but still has professional on order, so I took the 49.99 rain check and went to CompUSA and got it for the 50.00$ I must say its been the best 50$ I have spent so far!!
I must first say that SuSE did a wonderful job! YaST2 is great, picked up most of my things right off, including setup of my network printer!
DVD Install went flawlessly and could not have been happier with it!
But I ran into a few problems with the CD Install which I will go over quicklike!
On first try when it tried to install the UDF package, it would lock the machine (CD #2) I had to manually remove that from the packages to get further in the install.
Later on the CD would spin repeatedly and just would not take CD #2 again... I checked Ctrl-Alt F8 to see what was going on and this showed...
hdc: cdrom_decode_status: error=0x34
: status=0x51 [ DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
Repeat the DriveReady error a few times and reset and repeat again. Finally it just gave up and asked for the 3rd CD and went on with the install. One of my 7.0 LiveEval CDs did that on my laptop before I did the install on that (Compaq 1220 Presario) I dunno the techs on either CDROM since its been so long since I got the laptop and installed the one in the desktop.
It recognized my onboard soundcard which was ok if I used it hehe, but didnt take my Ensoniq sound card and insisted it was a Sound Blaster of some sorts, I had to use alsaconf to get that to work.
My EtherExpress 16 NIC didnt detect either, but showed when I did the manual setup.
After that I had to install Enlightenment manually with yast on CD #2 cause KDE just dont float my boat (Sorry personal opinion there).
The XSetup was strange, It installed XFree 4.0.2 and I had no clue the XF86Config file was in /etc/X11/ and it threw me off, XaX2 did not take on my wheel mouse (generic) and I had to add the Option ZAxis.... to it to get it to work. looking at the /etc/XF86Config it didnt look like a 4.x.x conf file, and of course didnt take any change it made to it. I had to use xf86config4 to find the /etc/X11 config directory.
SaX2 also bungled a bit on the resolution... Gave me a decent size at first then the screen would fuxx (static like) when I moved the mouse clicked windows etc. SO I dropped the resolution down one size and that fixed it. Usage of xf86config4 manually to configure everything gave me a GREAT resolution and allowed me to fix my mouse, no pointer section from SaX2 for my mouse at all.
After adding the ZAxis and Buttons lines everything is working great so far.
Granted I had fun working through these small obsticals, and really love the new changes, especially the lilo boot screen, that just ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
2.4 works great, no problems and took like a dream even on an upgrade!
The manuals are great, the pin is a wonderful addition to my vest at work (I got about 3 SuSE stickers on my name badge LOL). It was worth every penny of my 50$
Just to think I was feeling left out in the dark a few days ago.
Thank you SuSE!!!!!!!!! Robert Davies
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE6o0D9IFP6LJ6vo8YRArT0AKCNdKBkIAFJOBbAWeQrPbDaSvbr5gCgi5Wv 6pnT7XyzouBu1Y3L3BhiLfY= =7McS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (10)
-
Christian Klippel -
Christopher D. Reimer -
Herman Knief -
Jerry Kreps -
Lewie Wolfgang -
Lewis E. Wolfgang
-
Matthew Johnson -
Michael Schwager -
Pascal MiQUET -
phantasm