Re: [opensuse] Goodbye to suse
Hey, so I just joined into this convo and you know what, I am all for OpenSUSE. I am not sure what's up with Novell and Microsoft and how that will effect us, but I feel as if it'll help. Let's face it, there are a lot of things that don't work well with Linux especially in a corporate setting. I want to see Linux and Windows be able to work (of course, I'll use Linux). I am not an MS fan but I don't like the fact that my OpenOffice can't open the MS .docx yet. I also hate having to get third party software to make Linux and Windows servers and management work. As for your music, it's the same problem with Ubuntu. In Dapper and Edgy, you have to download extra xine codecs off of their multiverse repository. You can't just get mp3 support out of the box. I think there is something larger than Microsoft and Novell going on with these formats and patents. I don't think it's rational to get mad at Novell over our misfortunes. It's just a Linux thing, not a Novell thing. We all need to work together if we want to see Linux blow up onto the mainstream map. Once that happens, we'll see more Linux drivers and apps. On Sat Dec 23 19:26 , Darryl Gregorash sent:
On 2006-12-23 19:14, John wrote:
I'll tell you what this patent protection did for me.
First off, you should be aware that a great deal of protected stuff has not been in SuSELinux, for quite some time. Your Mplayer was uninstalled because of legal reasons, and Novell/SuSE cannot do much about that, if they want to protect their asses and yours from some rather expensive lawsuits.
The codec patents involved in Mplayer for the most part do not belong to Microsoft. The various patented formats, such as mp3, are owned by someone else. Therefore, nothing in the Novell/MS agreement can allow those codecs to be put into the distribution.
I made the mistake of upgrading to openSUSE 10.2 and now I'm regretting it big time. Mplayer was uninstalled by the upgrade, and none of my
So put in a link to a Packman mirror, and put it back.
Is Linux desktop ready for prime time? I wish, but unfortunately, that's not the present situation.
Well, you go talk to the boys that own the mp3 patents and tell them they should just give Novell the rights to distribute the codecs, without fee. I am sure they will listen.
-- The best way to accelerate a computer running Windows is at 9.81 m/s²
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On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 10:49 -0800, Jay Smith wrote:
As for your music, it's the same problem with Ubuntu. In Dapper and Edgy, you have to download extra xine codecs off of their multiverse repository. You can't just get mp3 support out of the box. I think there is something larger than Microsoft and Novell going on with these formats and patents. I don't think it's rational to get mad at Novell over our misfortunes. It's just a Linux thing, not a Novell thing.
I could be wrong, but I thought this had to do with copyright infringement of unlicensed music? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 10:49 -0800, Jay Smith wrote:
As for your music, it's the same problem with Ubuntu. In Dapper and Edgy, you have to download extra xine codecs off of their multiverse repository. You can't just get mp3 support out of the box. I think there is something larger than Microsoft and Novell going on with these formats and patents. I don't think it's rational to get mad at Novell over our misfortunes. It's just a Linux thing, not a Novell thing.
I could be wrong, but I thought this had to do with copyright infringement of unlicensed music?
Not all MP3's involve copyright infringement. There are plenty of legal ones to play. Also as was previously ruled in a court (Betamax case?), as long as there is legitimate use for a device, it cannot be banned just because someone might use it illegally. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 14:35 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 10:49 -0800, Jay Smith wrote:
As for your music, it's the same problem with Ubuntu. In Dapper and Edgy, you have to download extra xine codecs off of their multiverse repository. You can't just get mp3 support out of the box. I think there is something larger than Microsoft and Novell going on with these formats and patents. I don't think it's rational to get mad at Novell over our misfortunes. It's just a Linux thing, not a Novell thing.
I could be wrong, but I thought this had to do with copyright infringement of unlicensed music?
Not all MP3's involve copyright infringement. There are plenty of legal ones to play. Also as was previously ruled in a court (Betamax case?), as long as there is legitimate use for a device, it cannot be banned just because someone might use it illegally.
I understand that. However, I was under the impression that's why mp3's don't play out-of-box. Even though it's no big deal, I just had to update xine and amarok played no problem. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 14:05, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 14:35 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 10:49 -0800, Jay Smith wrote:
...
I could be wrong, but I thought this had to do with copyright infringement of unlicensed music?
Not all MP3's involve copyright infringement. There are plenty of legal ones to play. Also as was previously ruled in a court (Betamax case?), as long as there is legitimate use for a device, it cannot be banned just because someone might use it illegally.
I understand that. However, I was under the impression that's why mp3's don't play out-of-box. Even though it's no big deal, I just had to update xine and amarok played no problem.
You have to distinguish commercial material (commercially published music, e.g.) from the proprietary (patented) technology used to encode and decode it. In this case, the reason Novell does not include any MP3 software is that the patent holder, Thomson Consumer Electronics, requires a royalty for any implementation of MP3 codecs, even independently written ones (possible because the IP takes the form of a patent, not a mere copyright on a specific implementation). Presumably the royalty structures available are too costly for Novell to absorb. Furthermore, it would probably require Novell to know how many copies are distributed, and that's extremely difficult when the distribution that would contain it is freely (re-)distributable. The only way it could work contractually would be a bulk / blanket license, because anything unit-based would be impossible to account. IP licensed with unit-based royalties and freely distributable software don't seem to mix very well... And make no mistake, the MP3 software on Macintoshes, Windows and hardware players is not free, it's cost is part of the license fee for using those operating systems. So, if you don't respect Thomson's patent, you can easily acquire implementations of the MP3 encoding and decoding software and use them to play or record MP3 audio files and streams. If you do respect the patent, then you should stick to using commercial MP3 hardware and software. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 24 December 2006 15:00, Randall R Schulz wrote:
If you do respect the patent, then you should stick to using commercial MP3 hardware and software.
Not necessary. For home/non-commercial use, are free to use mp3. From the mp3 licensing site: Quote: However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00. http://www.mp3licensing.com/help/index.html Thomson/Fraunhofer have declined to press any actions against free software projects, which is why such things as lame, sox, grip and 6 or 7 others exist. Given that, I suspect distros that are released totally for free could arguably include mp3 support out of the box, er, download, by simply supplying it from a non-oss media/repo, so as to avoid any problems with the GPL. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen
On Sunday 24 December 2006 14:05, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 14:35 -0500, James Knott wrote:
Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 10:49 -0800, Jay Smith wrote:
As for your music, it's the same problem with Ubuntu. In Dapper and Edgy, you have to download extra xine codecs off of their multiverse repository. You can't just get mp3 support out of the box. I think there is something larger than Microsoft and Novell going on with these formats and patents. I don't think it's rational to get mad at Novell over our misfortunes. It's just a Linux thing, not a Novell thing.
I could be wrong, but I thought this had to do with copyright infringement of unlicensed music?
Not all MP3's involve copyright infringement. There are plenty of legal ones to play. Also as was previously ruled in a court (Betamax case?), as long as there is legitimate use for a device, it cannot be banned just because someone might use it illegally.
I understand that. However, I was under the impression that's why mp3's don't play out-of-box. Even though it's no big deal, I just had to update xine and amarok played no problem.
It isn't a copyright issue at all, but rather a patent one. Some idiot seems to think you can patent algorithms and therefore some German Company - Frauenhofer, I think - has a patent on the process to decode MPEG Layer 3 files. IIRC, the patent expires in about four years. A ways back, some good samaritan came out with LAME - Lame Ain't an MP3 Encoder - to decode MP3 files using a different process than Frauenhofer. Unfortunately, there's some question in backwards countries such as the USSA whereby the decoding algorithm is under the same patend as Frauenhofer's. Hence, Novell doesn't want to get into any legal trouble. That's the reason to advocate OGG over MP3 whenever possible. -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 25 December 2006 14:04, Kai Ponte wrote:
...
I understand that. However, I was under the impression that's why mp3's don't play out-of-box. Even though it's no big deal, I just had to update xine and amarok played no problem.
It isn't a copyright issue at all, but rather a patent one. Some idiot seems to think you can patent algorithms and therefore some German Company - Frauenhofer, I think - has a patent on the process to decode MPEG Layer 3 files. IIRC, the patent expires in about four years.
Yeah... As I already stated. By the way, Fraunhofer developed the technology but Thomson Consumer Electronics holds the patent, now.
A ways back, some good samaritan came out with LAME - Lame Ain't an MP3 Encoder - to decode MP3 files using a different process than Frauenhofer. Unfortunately, there's some question in backwards countries such as the USSA whereby the decoding algorithm is under the same patend as Frauenhofer's.
Hence, Novell doesn't want to get into any legal trouble.
That's the reason to advocate OGG over MP3 whenever possible.
There are some who believe that the patent in question is written in such a way that should they decide they want to (perhaps should they simply feel alternatives begin to threaten their royalty stream) that Thomson could make a tenable argument that other codec schemes, Vorbis, e.g. (Ogg is the name of a generic container file format; Vorbis is the name of the audio codec), are also infringing and hence no audio compression scheme is safe from the MP3 patent.
-- kai
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (6)
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James Knott -
Jay Smith -
John Andersen -
Kai Ponte -
Michael S. Dunsavage -
Randall R Schulz