Am Samstag, 11. Juli 2009 03:44:30 schrieb Charles Philip Chan:

...

Beagle ! what a total pain and complete resource hog once again it needs to be a LOT easier to un-install or not install at all With the requisite warning for those that do install it beware it will hog your CPU for excessive amounts of time ,

Another program I detest. However, you can not fault OpenSUSE only again, since this is part of a default a Gnome installation.

It is kind of openSUSE's fault because they install it by default, even with a KDE installation and although somehow not active by default, it does use the CPU and harddisk.

...

Likewise Nepomuk .

This is a symptom of "keep up with the Jones". Ever since Apple's Spotlight, every OS seem to have an indexer enabled by default.

Nepomuk is two parts. One is the semantic framework, i.e. you can tag files and folders etc. the other is the indexing, aka strigi. The latter is what causes hdd and cpu usage and the current status is that it will be disabled by default in 11.2. Really disabled, not like beagle.

...

Then we have this whole License thing about codecs and DVD playing software things like DHT as well , People purchase a distro and rightfully so expect to be able to install it bang in a DVD and have it play not go faffing around having to instantly pollute a new install with essentially foreign packages not everyone has a good enough Internet connection to do that any way , maybe it is time for Opensuse to find a new home where German licensing rules don't apply .

Huh, this had nothing to do with German Licensing rules. Dvdcss is illegal in all countries that have ratified WIPO's "Copyright and Performances and Phonograms Treaties Implementation Act":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_and_Performances_and_Phonograms _Treaties_Implementation_Act

Thanks for providing that list, it really helps if people go on about government x or y or openSUSE as being the only distro that has to work with these issues. Even some versions of MS Windows come without DVD support, so this is not even a Linux issue. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 13.07.2009, Charles Philip Chan wrote:

True, if the user did not choose to install GNOME, then Beagle should not have been installed.

Beagle was and is a major drag, it should never ever be installed by default, whatever desktop manager is used. As Andreas already told us, the opensuse people will disable it in final 11.2, and in my opinion that's the right thing to do. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 14.07.2009, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

In the last 8 hours BeagleDaemon.exe has consumed 34 seconds of CPU time! If you call that a drag you'd better uninstall allot of other services too.

Ok, I have another unused machine here, I'll install Beagle there, together with some monitoring tools.

Sounds good to me; then everyone who irrationally hates Beagle will stop claiming it is broken.

I personally do not think that it's broken, but what I did experience in the past was a Beagle slowing down even a 3GHz quadcore machine significantly from time to another. One of the first things I did when installing a new Linux operating system was to nuke Beagle right from the start. I for myself will never use it anyway, I don't have the need for it, but there are some Linux machines in my workingplace which would profit a lot from it... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Charles Philip Chan wrote:

True, if the user did not choose to install GNOME, then Beagle should not have been installed. However, according to other people, Beagle is a lot better on resources now, so this point might be moot.

Yep. Like 11.0 installing KDE4 packages as part of the default KDE3 install.

Yes, I know. The Semantic desktop sounds interesting on paper. Only time will tell how well it works out in really life.

Almost seems like an answer looking for a problem. IF it can make me more productive, then great. Since I have yet to see any evidence of that, then IMHO, it's a waste of time except for the developers working on it.

No problem. People should be made aware of how their governments are selling out on their fair use/fair dealing rights.

Rights? What's that? Companies are using $$ to stifle the rights of the masses while they do what they decrie. How many times have some CEO been nailed for copying something he said you shouldn't have a right to? The Windows disks say that it's illegal to make copies, but it's not the disk that matters, it's the 25 digit key that matters.

The only versions of Windows that comes with DVD playback support are the ultra-expensive, higher end Vista versions with licensing (from the MPEG-LA, DVD CCA, etc), included in the price. Otherwise, this is MickeySoft's stock response:

Since most people buy computers with Windows on them, the manufacturer is usually the one that supplies everything they need, so they aren't aware that it's an issue, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

That is the rub for these tools;  they can only help a user *IF* the user chooses to use them.  If the user insists on just working the way she/he always has... then these tools seem like an annoying interference.

Actually, that's not the problem. The problem is 2 things: 1. Compelling need - After thoroughly reviewing all these "features" and "Benefits" of things like KDE4 and beagle, I have found little if any reason to use them. Therefore, if they aren't going to offer me anything I could use, then I see no reason to force myself to try to find a reason to use them. 2. Adjusting to the change - I, as a home user, don't want to waste my time trying to figure out how to make things work for me considering the lack of benefits. But, in a business enviroment, this is the big one. This is the inertia that keeps people using Win/Office because that's what they are used to OR that's what their company purchases.

On the other hand I do think that the 'Semantic web/desktop' is over-hyped [in GNOME, KDE, and the Web] by the hard-core evangelists. Some of it seems to assume users spend all thier time in IM chats with their friends and listening to MP3 playlists.  But if you're a 'real' user with large documents and heaps of e-mail and spreadsheets then search tools can make many tasks more efficient, provided you learn to use them.

I don't have text messaging on my cell phone(unlimited minutes, no home phone since 1997), don't use Twitter or anything like that, don't work in a collaborative enviroment, so I have to agree about the over-hype. Like I said, it's an answer looking for a problem. I don't mind the fact that people like bling. Just give me an easy way to turn it off. My computer is a tool. I spend a lot of time in text modes. Granted I'm not a normal computer user, but that's what I need to be productive. The devs seems to have forgotten about that when they decided to target new users. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

That you find no reason to use them does not mean there is no reason to use them.

I guess that puts me in the minority then. There used to be 2 versions of S.u.S.E. - A personal and professional to address this. One of the things we have lost since going the openSUSE route.

So?  Follow this path and you might as well just cease all development on everything.  Give everyone a Commodore 64 running GEOS and call it a day;  that is what millions of people were used to once upon a time. Why even use LINUX, people are used to XP.

Agreed. I don't offer Linux to people anymore. I don't have the time to waste when they wanna know why they can't just download MySpaceIM and have it work. This idea of respositories sounds good on paper, but it's a PITA for most people, especially windows converts who are used to going to a website, downloading a file, and clicking install. Having 1 archive that will work anywhere is a huge plus, and the Linux way is hugely wasteful IMO of resources, disk space, etc.

Ok, this puts you in a pretty small minority of tech users.  It doesn't really bolster the position that what you like should be an indicator of what should be installed/enabled by default.

Never said that. I would like a questionaire I can click on at install that makes it easier to disable crap.

There already is http://en.opensuse.org/Disabling_Beagle

I prefer my solution. Taboo Beagle during install. Then you don't have to worry with it. But it takes a lot of time to go through and weed out the crap from the basic install. Maybe we could have a list of packages sets designed for the casual users, the middle of the road and the power user. Something WOULD be nice, but since I would just remove stuff anyway, I guess I'm wishfully thinking. Or something where you can say, Hey, My machine is older and doesn't have resources to waste. Can we pare down the install to help me? I don't have a Core2 Quad and 8MB RAM. I have a P3/700 and 384MB RAM and just want to be able to do a little writing and check my email.

No, they didn't, see the above URL (at least in the case of Beagle). And most new users probably have text messaging and use collaborative tools (like twitter, IM, etc...)

No, I meant overall. The KDE devs decided it was their way or the highway, and it's taken a long time to get them to understand how broken v4 is compared to v3. There are other examples as well. Oh well. I guess I'm just wasting my time again trying to have my voice heard since I'm considered to be wrong about everything. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams wrote: <snip>

But you run into a issue of scarce resources - someone would need to define and *test* that category on an *ongoing* basis. As a software developer I can tell you that *ongoing testing* is the most expensive [in resources] part of the entire process. Seriously. On projects I've worked on I've vetoed many a otherwise good feature/idea because "who is going to maintain it?" Testing requires *lots* of time from very [scarce] knowledgeable people.

But this is the crux of the entire argument. Given this limited set of resources, somewhere a group of developers have made a decision on how to allocate those resources in the design of a product. But there are users (call them customers if you like) that are saying "we don't like the product". And they seem to be a vocal and persistent set of users that have been with SuSE for a long time and are not trollers. The canonical open-source response is "well, open source is all about choice and you can go and hack your distro all you want and put in whatever you like". This is simply unrealistic for the vast, vast majority of users. The risk is then to drive people away from SuSE, and end up with a distro that only the developers are using. Is this acceptable? -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

On Tue, 2009-07-14 at 11:16 -0700, Tony Alfrey wrote:

<snip>

...

This is simply unrealistic for the vast, vast majority of users.

You jumped from "vocal and persistent set of users" to "vast majority of users". There is no evidence the "vast majority of users" are unhappy.

This is not what I said; you are quoting out of context. Go back and read it again. On second thought, don't bother. I can see from your responses to others complaints that you will interpret my remarks defensively, and in a way you have decided in advance. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

You could probably do with a bit more RAM - PC100 DIMMs are not really that expensive anymore.

Actually, the SODimms are. $25 for a PC100 256MB. However, that is a moot point since that machine, a Thinkpad X21, has a Max RAM of 384MB. The next model up, the X22, can go to 640MB. Just my luck.

Or buy a new desktop machine - I bought two 2nd hand Dell Optiplex'es just the other day for use as office machines.  2.4GHz Celerons with 512M RAM. I added another 512M to both, and each machine was still only CHF60.

I have an E1200 overclocked to 3.2Ghz with 2GB RAM overclocked to 1Ghz. Honestly, it gets annoying to be told I need to buy new. I'm currently laid off and struggling with my bills, so computer upgrades are out of the question anytime soon(selling may become neccessary as much as I don't want to). Running 11.0/KDE3, that X21 does just fine for what I need it to do. Web access and writing on the go. I looked at those new netbooks, and this older thinkpad has so many more advantages, like a better, larger screen and keyboard, almost as fast processor(most of those netbooks come with a CeleronM 900, which is not quite 50% - twice as fast as a P3/700), better battery life, and a hell of a lot cheaper. Got under $75 in this used machine, and probably kept it from ending up in a landfill somewhere. I'm not a tree hugger, but I firmly believe in reuse and recycling. My biggest concern is how much longer will it still be viable without having to move to a mini distro like Damn Small or Puppy. I prefer Firefox and KWord, and those are my most use programs outside of MPlayer. And this old laptop plays movies just fine. KDE4 promises lower memory usage, so it may end up being my testin platform for that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen a écrit :

Larry Stotler wrote:

I am all for maintaining support for older hardware, but at some point the older hardware will/must be left behind.

xubuntu still install in 256Mb ram machine and works fine openSUSE is visibly aiming the more new hardware... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2009-07-15 at 15:12 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

jdd wrote:

...

xubuntu still install in 256Mb ram machine and works fine

openSUSE is visibly aiming the more new hardware...

openSUSE will install on less than that too - I've got 11.0 running on a PII 333MHZ with 96M RAM (I think it had more when I did the install though).

Surely! OpenSUSE/SuSE needs way more memory during install (live system + yast and no swap), but can run later with less memory.

I've also got 11.1 running on a Pentium 133MHz with 128Mb. The first one does environmental monitoring, nothing too onerous, the second one was just for fun to see what the real minimum was.

Wow. Er... I have SuSE 7.3 or on a Pentium 1 with 32 MiB (8.x would not install), and 6.4 or thereabouts on a 386SX with 5 MiB ram. My P-I is quite ussable, as long as you don't attempt to browse a site with javascript. Staroffice runs well, but takes a minute to start. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpd7DwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X2WQCfYxs8uWOn8Ti/NAHMXLcvHcvf XRgAnRmjEr9k7CelFL/gK51x5hANoZ8w =V/3S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

I think it needed 128Mb RAM + some swap space.

The installer require 256MB. You can get by with less with swap space and for a text mode file server, 128MB is fine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

You could probably do with a bit more RAM - PC100 DIMMs are not really that expensive anymore. Actually, the SODimms are. $25 for a PC100 256MB. However, that is a moot point since that machine, a Thinkpad X21, has a Max RAM of 384MB. The next model up, the X22, can go to 640MB. Just my luck. Ah, sorry about that. Yes, SODimms are still pricey in comparison.

The X21 is from late 2001; that is ~8 years old. It seems entirely reasonable to be that such a machine is going to really struggle to run a current desktop install. Expecting a five year life span from a computer is the bench mark I hear most often.

...

...

Or buy a new desktop machine - I bought two 2nd hand Dell Optiplex'es just the other day for use as office machines. 2.4GHz Celerons with 512M RAM. I added another 512M to both, and each machine was still only CHF60.

I use a 1.6GHz P4 / 1.2GB RAM for a desktop and performance is reasonable, not great. But that is about to slide over the five year mark. Upgrading the video card helped *A LOT*.

...

I have an E1200 overclocked to 3.2Ghz with 2GB RAM overclocked to 1Ghz. Honestly, it gets annoying to be told I need to buy new.

Unless the drives or GPU are seriously lame I don't see why performance on such a box wouldn't be entirely adequate. Unfortunately CPU/RAM isn't the entire performance equation. I've see 'older' machines perform pretty well while newer and [theoretically] faster machines are dogs.

Apologies, I didn't quite mean it like that - I was trying to make a friendly suggestion that you are perhaps expecting too much from a P3/700 with 384M RAM as a desktop.

Yes.

I am all for maintaining support for older hardware, but at some point the older hardware will/must be left behind. Especially for a desktop machine/distro, where it's difficult to utilize the new multi-cores with a couple of gigabyte and make it run on e.g. a P3 with 384Mb at the same time.

It is also just the times. AJAX websites and other content just require more horsepower - even to browse the web. [Which is kind of the myth behind using Google Docs or that ilk to save old machines - it does not work as web applications are horribly horribly horribly inefficient]. The benchmarking we've done in-house shows that the web browser is one of the most resource intensive applications people run, much more so than their office suite or groupware client. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

My current computer is from 2000/1 vintage, a P-IV, 1 GiB ram. It would run better if I could add more memory to it, but it is almost impossible to find it, and then, expensive. DIMM PC133 it uses.

How about Kingston 256M CL3 for SFr43 = apprx EUR28. Found at www.pcp.ch just now. I'm sure you can find better prices on ebay. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2009-07-15 at 17:50 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

My current computer is from 2000/1 vintage, a P-IV, 1 GiB ram. It would run better if I could add more memory to it, but it is almost impossible to find it, and then, expensive. DIMM PC133 it uses.

How about Kingston 256M CL3 for SFr43 = apprx EUR28. Found at www.pcp.ch just now. I'm sure you can find better prices on ebay.

Wow. :-o But you know, it takes some convincing for me to buy over Internet from a place I don't know personally... maybe it is because I'm Spanish or not too young. My first Internet shopping experience was very bad: we were victims of a fraud. My employer lost more than 1200€. Thus I'm overly careful now... And anyway, I'm shopping for a new computer right now, so, I don't think I would invest on this old one... But thanks, who knows. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpeHsQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XwCgCglXyr1OBtf6D4KGShpyY6BVz1 jtoAoIYUh5UvzqKT8xaU2/SrnwKLMuwt =btWG -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2009-07-15 at 20:42 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that you buy from pcp.ch - they probably don't ship internationally anyway. I just meant to give you an example of the pricing and availability.

Ah, well. But on "real" shops where I live, it's un-findable. It was already difficult years ago: I found them on a shop that happened to use the same kind of memories for their own office computers. Anyway, I'm shopping for a new computer. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpeLXYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XKxQCfblowDEdL8u0DxCyKNDBpp7N4 U0UAnRqEMjPJlwIjK+lEyK8BrtW6qs9q =+fCW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Ah, sorry about that.  Yes, SODimms are still pricey in comparison.

Yep. You can almos get 2GB of DDR2 for the price of one 256MB PC100(mainly due to the fact that most 440BX laptops require low density RAM, which is more expensive than high density PC133).

Apologies, I didn't quite mean it like that - I was trying to make a friendly suggestion that you are perhaps expecting too much from a P3/700 with 384M RAM as a desktop.

I have a Dell Precision Workstation 610 that has Dual Xeon 500Mhz chips and 512MB RAM(I have found a 2GB upgrade for it on eBay for under $20......tempting if I can spare it). It runs 10.2 pretty well. Haven't tried anything never in a while tho.

I am all for maintaining support for older hardware, but at some point the older hardware will/must be left behind.  Especially for a desktop machine/distro, where it's difficult to utilize the new multi-cores with a couple of gigabyte and make it run on e.g. a P3 with 384Mb at the same time.

Agreed. I don't expect to run the current stuff on my Powerbook 3400c(603ev/180Mhz/144MB RAM) or my Thinkpad 380XD(P-233/96MB RAM). But a P3 is a very usable system for linux if you shy away from the bling. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2009-07-12 at 19:15 +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 11. Juli 2009 03:44:30 schrieb Charles Philip Chan:

...

...

Beagle ! what a total pain and complete resource hog once again it needs to be a LOT easier to un-install or not install at all With the requisite warning for those that do install it beware it will hog your CPU for excessive amounts of time , Another program I detest. However, you can not fault OpenSUSE only again, since this is part of a default a Gnome installation. It is kind of openSUSE's fault because they install it by default, even with a KDE installation and although somehow not active by default, it does use the CPU and harddisk.

It absolutely does *not* consume CPU or IO if not activated. Disabling Beagle is well covered at http://en.opensuse.org/Disabling_Beagle It can even be partially disabled; such as not indexing Firefox traffic, etc... The Beagle FAQ http://beagle-project.org/Troubleshooting_CPU is also a good read. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday, 2009-07-11 at 00:47 +0100, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

It has to be said now after attempting to get 11.2 MS2 and 11.2 MS3 to play the game the standards of releases has fallen to a new all time low how on earth have you got the front to call these releases anything other than Alpha at best .

Well, they are actually alphas, of course. That's factory, what did you expect?

Rest of mail ignored, because you start from a very wrong assumption... and the wrong list to discuss factory, ie, development, versions. aimed at BOTH LISTS on purpose ,and they are far worse than any other Alpha has ever been you need to read the rest not install the blinkers that is

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 09:34:54 Carlos E. R. wrote: the problem the "Oh there seems to be a problem quick get the blinkers on and fail to see and /or aknowldge it" stop hiding behind things

On 11 July 09, Thierry de Coulon wrote:

Why don't you file bug reports instead of compaining that an alpha release is an alpha release?

Why don't you follow the rules of the mailing list and stop top-posting and then do some research...he has and does make bug reports. -- A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -Thomas Jefferson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 11 July 2009, Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 13:25:46 Thierry de Coulon wrote:

...

Why don't you file bug reports instead of compaining that an alpha release is an alpha release?

Thats simple bug report Opensuse 11.2.xx is a BUG

That good enough for you and your buggy friends ?

The truth is i am SICK of trying to get bug reports acted on when i manage to get into that dumb bugzilla thing and report bugs FA is done about them so whats the point answer me that

Pete --

Well i see it's working

@JB2: sorry about top posting, but is _that_ the important thing? Besides, it so happens that kmail does not send you to the end of the message when you answer, so if you don't pay enough attention... my mistake. @JB2 & Peter Nikolic: I can understand bugzilla is not working well and the bug reports are not being handled tha right way, but I fail to see how ranting in _this_ mailing list about an alpha release can in any way improve the situation... I always hought alpha releases were there to see what works and what not and correct these problems. Given the number of elements that work for one, but not for the others, I find it difficult to discuss the "quality" of an alpha release globaly from a single experience. I do have a problem with alpha or beta quality releases being presented as 1.0 versions, but that's another story, but I would not even dare to complain here about a beta release, it being clearly announced as "not finished". Thierry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 18:14:03 Thierry de Coulon wrote:

On Saturday 11 July 2009, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 13:25:46 Thierry de Coulon wrote:

...

Why don't you file bug reports instead of compaining that an alpha release is an alpha release?

Thats simple bug report Opensuse 11.2.xx is a BUG

That good enough for you and your buggy friends ?

The truth is i am SICK of trying to get bug reports acted on when i manage to get into that dumb bugzilla thing and report bugs FA is done about them so whats the point answer me that

Pete --

Well i see it's working

@JB2: sorry about top posting, but is _that_ the important thing? Besides, it so happens that kmail does not send you to the end of the message when you answer, so if you don't pay enough attention... my mistake.

@JB2 & Peter Nikolic: I can understand bugzilla is not working well and the bug reports are not being handled tha right way, but I fail to see how ranting in _this_ mailing list about an alpha release can in any way improve the situation...

I always hought alpha releases were there to see what works and what not and correct these problems. Given the number of elements that work for one, but not for the others, I find it difficult to discuss the "quality" of an alpha release globaly from a single experience.

I do have a problem with alpha or beta quality releases being presented as 1.0 versions, but that's another story, but I would not even dare to complain here about a beta release, it being clearly announced as "not finished".

Thierry

Not Ranting simply stating a point in a vocal fashion just making a point Pete

Frans de Boer wrote:

Having noted that Peter dislikes version 11.2 alpha version x, can we put this to rest?

I think that must be one of the more sensible proposals in this thread. +1. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Nikolic wrote:

I actually dislike the very lax dont give a monkeys attitude that seems to be creeping into Opensuse by the very vocal few so now they got someone equally as vocal that can see thru the Blah that keeps on being spread in previous releases

Peter, have you noticed how easily your own attitude could be seen as equally lax? You complain about lack of qualify in an alpha release, so you are obviously putting an effort into testing it, yet you cannot be bothered to open a bugreport when you come across a problem. If anything, that is a "very lax dont give a monkeys attitude". /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Sunday 12 Jul 2009 12:59:32 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

I actually dislike the very lax dont give a monkeys attitude that seems to be creeping into Opensuse by the very vocal few so now they got someone equally as vocal that can see thru the Blah that keeps on being spread in previous releases

Peter, have you noticed how easily your own attitude could be seen as equally lax? You complain about lack of qualify in an alpha release, so you are obviously putting an effort into testing it, yet you cannot be bothered to open a bugreport when you come across a problem. If anything, that is a "very lax dont give a monkeys attitude".

/Per

FYI if you look back not too long in the list you will see that i have been almost 100% unsucessfull in gaining access to the famous bad mannered bugzilla most the time i just get some strange pink screen saying already logged in and check email address and the answer is as always Not logged in

Okay, so that is where you need to start. Others, including myself have no problems accessing bugzilla, so something is obviously wrong with your setup or your account data. If you need help sorting it out, describe _exacvtly_ what you do and what happens, and maybe someone can help you. OTOH in another posting you said "The truth is i am SICK of trying to get bug reports acted on when i manage to get into that dumb bugzilla thing and report bugs FA is done about them". This seems to imply that you are able to get into bugzilla after all? /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 11 July 09, Thierry de Coulon wrote:

On Saturday 11 July 2009, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 13:25:46 Thierry de Coulon wrote:

...

Why don't you file bug reports instead of compaining that an alpha release is an alpha release?

Thats simple bug report Opensuse 11.2.xx is a BUG

That good enough for you and your buggy friends ?

The truth is i am SICK of trying to get bug reports acted on when i manage to get into that dumb bugzilla thing and report bugs FA is done about them so whats the point answer me that

Pete --

Well i see it's working

@JB2: sorry about top posting, but is _that_ the important thing?

No less than pretty much anything else I've seen on this list in the past couple of years.

Besides, it so happens that kmail does not send you to the end of the message when you answer, so if you don't pay enough attention... my mistake.

My kmail does (openSUSE 10.3 btw). What's the problem with the one you're using? Have you sent in a bug report on it? -- "Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once." - Julius Caesar (II, ii, 32-37) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2009-07-11 at 17:31 +0100, Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 13:25:46 Thierry de Coulon wrote:

...

Why don't you file bug reports instead of compaining that an alpha release is an alpha release? Thats simple bug report Opensuse 11.2.xx is a BUG That good enough for you and your buggy friends ? The truth is i am SICK of trying to get bug reports acted on when i manage to get into that dumb bugzilla thing and report bugs FA is done about them so whats the point answer me that

For the record, I think the bug system is working; witness https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=509903, opened and closed. But then, since I have my "blinkers on" I'm probably failing to see how this was so inefficient. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 11:38:50 Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 09:34:54 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Saturday, 2009-07-11 at 00:47 +0100, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

It has to be said now after attempting to get 11.2 MS2 and 11.2 MS3 to play the game the standards of releases has fallen to a new all time low how on earth have you got the front to call these releases anything other than Alpha at best .

Well, they are actually alphas, of course. That's factory, what did you expect?

Rest of mail ignored, because you start from a very wrong assumption... and the wrong list to discuss factory, ie, development, versions.

aimed at BOTH LISTS on purpose ,and they are far worse than any other Alpha has ever been you need to read the rest not install the blinkers that is the problem the "Oh there seems to be a problem quick get the blinkers on and fail to see and /or aknowldge it" stop hiding behind things Alpha releases have no warranty what so ever and anyone who installs an alpha release and expects it to be perfect or close to perfect is living in cloud cuckoo land. Get a grip. What a waste of email space. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 14:21:12 ianseeks wrote:

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 11:38:50 Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 09:34:54 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Saturday, 2009-07-11 at 00:47 +0100, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

It has to be said now after attempting to get 11.2 MS2 and 11.2 MS3 to play the game the standards of releases has fallen to a new all time low how on earth have you got the front to call these releases anything other than Alpha at best .

Well, they are actually alphas, of course. That's factory, what did you expect?

Rest of mail ignored, because you start from a very wrong assumption... and the wrong list to discuss factory, ie, development, versions.

aimed at BOTH LISTS on purpose ,and they are far worse than any other Alpha has ever been you need to read the rest not install the blinkers that is the problem the "Oh there seems to be a problem quick get the blinkers on and fail to see and /or aknowldge it" stop hiding behind things

Alpha releases have no warranty what so ever and anyone who installs an alpha release and expects it to be perfect or close to perfect is living in cloud cuckoo land. Get a grip. What a waste of email space

.

Get a grip. What a waste of email space. Have you seen anyone actually ask for such do your self a favour take your own advice . The facts stand these releases are getting progresively worse by the number and for your information i am not the only one saying that . Pete .

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-07-11 at 17:26 +0100, Peter Nikolic wrote:

The facts stand these releases are getting progresively worse by the number and for your information i am not the only one saying that .

They are not "releases", they are alphas, and this is absolutely normal. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpY3CEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VLhwCfW8opbkliIwFxn5x9y/I9Q6YX 6XMAnR9d7+vrTcbk4JUZWU+V4HSQ5o/L =SD1j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 14:48:22 Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

On Sat, 2009-07-11 at 00:47 +0100, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

I have used Opensuse now for some years

So have I, it has been the best desktop/workstation OS and environment I've found so far.

...

since the days of 5.3 in fact and

There never was an openSUSE 5.3; there was a SuSE 5.3 (I think)

Ok SuSE 5.3 same difference

...

Linux in general well before that since the days of the Early 0.9 kernels all floppy distro no X i also ran Slackware and Red Hat and tested a few more along the way so i know a thing or two about Linux

So did I, started on an i80386SX16 running Iggdrasil. Of course, having used LINUX for a decade or so doesn't automatically give either of our views any merits. This need of having to lay out one's LINUX or Open Source street-cred is really tiring; a claim is valid [or not] on its merits.

But it does give one a sense of the progress made and the present is very poor indeed BTW that goes for 11.1 as well

...

It has to be said now after attempting to get 11.2 MS2 and 11.2 MS3 to play the game the standards of releases has fallen to a new all time low how on earth have you got the front to call these releases anything other than Alpha at best .

Those are not official releases; of course things are broken. There is broken and there is BORKED

...

The sound system is a total mess this pulseaudio thing is what nothing more than a total blight on the system there needs to be a choice for users risk pulseaudio or can that and run safe Alsa sound system . I know you are going to say Alsa doesn't do this or that but unlike pulseaudio it never failed to work it never chopped the audio

Pulseaudio certainly hasn't been all peaches-and-cream but it does provide real advantages and after updates it works OK on 11.1 (the latest *release*).

Beg to differ it fails completely to make any noise of note, it is as choppy as hell it sounds terrible . All of these systems work perfectly under 10.3 and did right from the very first alpha's so once again a fail.

...

Beagle ! what a total pain and complete resource hog once again it needs to be a LOT easier to un-install or not install at all With the requisite warning for those that do install it beware it will hog your CPU for excessive amounts of time ,

Seriously? It has been years since Beagle CPU hogged; recent versions have been very stable and consumed minimal resources. The functionality provided is wonderful.

...

Likewise Nepomuk .

That's a KDE thing, so I don't know anything about it. For good performance and stability use GNOME.

...

Then we have this whole License thing about codecs and DVD playing software things like DHT as well

This doesn't have anything to do with openSUSE; this is an issue with ALL distributions. But the one-click install well documented on the website solves this problem efficiently.

...

, People purchase a distro and rightfully so expect to be able to install it bang in a DVD

Who are these "people"? They *purchase* a distro?

...

This mail is aimed squarley at the Opensuse team who o know will call me for

I'm not on the openSUSE team; but you posted this rant in a public forum.

Posted in public on purpose out here it cant be swept under the rug

...

everything under the sun plus some it is a two way street don forget i have gripes with quite a few there who's attitudes STINK but i am not interested in them right now , Contray to the comments that will come in from one in perticular a lot of the content of this email will be agreed by a considerable number of people

Perhaps, that number doesn't include me.

Nope your one of the blinker wearers

...

a lot will keep stum they dont want their name to appear thats ok by me some may just get brave enough to agree fair dincum blue but do not for one moment think i am a one off this world is full of people that think one thing and say another for the sake of not standing out

Claiming to be backed by a silent majority is bogus. That is equivalent to referring to yourself as "we". Your also claiming [and thus insulting] your mysterious majority by claiming they are either lazy or cowards.

SO you calling me a coward now come say that to my face .

...

There is a lot more i could mention maybe i will shortly but one thing is for sure the situation as of this moment is a total disgrace to the SuSe name and a very poor shadow of it's former good name sort it out people , There is no point being the first ones to release something if it is a complete screwup a little more time in the R&D and less in the sales will work wonders

openSUSE has been the most pleasant and stable desktop I've used yet. And performance is very good.

you obviously thinking back a few releases the last good performer 10.3 boot time in both 11.1 and all 11.2.xx releases is chronic all 11.2 releases so far fail completely to un mount the filing system before shutting down or rebooting and no i have no interest or desire to use any of the ext filing systems reiser and xfs worked faultlessly under 10.3 so why should we expect it to fail under 11.2.xx Pete

And this is part of the problem. Since it works and doesn't cause you problems, then people complaining about them must be wrong.

No, but it means people claiming it is "useless" and "never" works *are* simply wrong (since it, in fact, does work for some people). The problem here is hyperbole; it makes real discussion essentially impossible.

Beagle's been a useless PITA for many since it was introduced. I don't even install it anymore, mainly because I have NEVER found ANY use for a Desktop Search tool. As I have stated repeatedly, when I work on a customer's system(generally Windows, but the same applies), they don't know they have it or why it's there, and when I tell them their system will run faster without it, they all say chuck it. Desktop Search is an answer looking for a problem.

No, because you choose to not use a new tool has no bearing on the merit of the new tool. I simply don't see how Meta-Space, enter a few characters, down-arrow, enter to get to exactly the document/contact/e-mail/etc... that I want is a "useless" feature. It is just different and requires adapting one's workflow to the newly available tools. Say you don't like it and/or won't use it - fine. But don't claim it is useless, broken, or a resource hog [which it isn't]. Quite some time ago Beagle would run hog wild on the system occasionally - that doesn't happen anymore. Obviously it does appear to create extra load AT FIRST while it does the initial index, but once done it only re-indexes things as they change and presents very minimal load. I suspect most people dramatically overreact to Beagle's initial indexing. There is, I believe, a huge lag in many people's perception as what Beagle was in its first versions to what it is now; they are no more valid than comparing Open Office 1.x to Open Office 3.x. If someone doesn't use something then clearly they aren't qualified to speak to its *current* condition. I don't do 3D graphics - so I don't comment on the state of Blender, OpenGL, etc... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 3:32 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Please take into account that 11.2 Milestones are indeed Alphas and not releases.  These milestones have only minimal testing.

Then why are they called Milestones? Evidently it's become confusing for some. I just assumed it was Alpha 1-4 and Beta 5-8, but never really say any answer to that one.

There's work going on for beagle to not enable it by default.

Or how about just asking: Would you like to turn on Desktop Search tools like Beagle or Stringi? during the install?

I doubt that we're the first ones to release everything.  We integrate early in factory to get early testing - and that's the purpose of the Milestones. With early testing - and bugreporting, - we will also do early fixing. Also problems can be reported in time to the upstream authors so that they help with fixes.  This all ensures that the final release is stable.  And once we have the final release, we might be the last ones to release - and to release a stable product.

The saving grace of 11.0 was that KDE3 was still supported. Distros like Fedora only released KDE4 in Core9, which was not what the KDE devs wanted. However, to many of us, KDE4 is still incomplete. Personally, I just wish that there was an easy way to turn off all the bling at first start up(which was why I asked that KPersonalizer be ported. Not everyone wants it, or has the hardware for it). My Thinkpad 390X with a p3/500 and a Neomagic 2.5MB video chip won't be able to do a lot of bling anyway. But it still works, plays movies, has built in wireless(now) and a good battery, and broswes the web just fine, so as long as it works, I see no reason to replace it.

You're more than welcome to report bugs or fix issues, we have opened factory so that everybody can participate,

And a lot of us have, and sometimes they get ignored or marked Won't Fix, which gets discouraging. The fact that openSUSE was even created and that we as users have input is a good thing, and it's even better that more and more is opened up. You and Olaf and others of the team have always been level headed and helpful. Some haven't tho, but that's life. While I've become discouraged with the direction of openSUSE in some ways I still use it(albiet 11.0/KDE3) and will wait and see what happens in the future. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 13 July 2009 06:06:15 pm David C. Rankin wrote:

On Friday 10 July 2009 06:47:42 pm Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

I have used Opensuse now for some years since the days of 5.3 in fact and Linux in general well before that since the days of the Early 0.9 kernels all floppy distro no X i also ran Slackware and Red Hat and tested a few more along the way so i know a thing or two about Linux i have even brewed up my own distro at one time .

It has to be said now after attempting to get 11.2 MS2 and 11.2 MS3 to play the game the standards of releases has fallen to a new all time low how on earth have you got the front to call these releases anything other than Alpha at best .

<snip>

...

Pete .

Son-of-a-bitch!

You took the words right out of my mouth :p

List, I apologize, my comment was off-color. I do however agree with much of what Pete said. The value in such a post is to make the developers stop and ask themselves "Why would somebody write such a post?" It should be apparent. Pete isn't the only one frustrated with the "readiness" of the openSuSE releases at the time the DVDs are pressed. We all know there are growing pains involved with distributions purchased by corporate parents and in implementation of new desktops, but a candid look at where we are with openSuSE -- the users have had more than their fair share. I don't know what change is needed, but I do know there needs to be a commitment to putting out releases that you can pop in the tray and have work without gigabyte updates required in the first 30 days. Hopefully some of the decision makers in Novell read this list and will take notice of the areas that need improvement as pointed out in the post. It is an opportunity for improvement. We have gone from looking forward to new openSuSE releases to "Well lets let the release get a month or so of use on it so we can see how this one pans out." It doesn't take too many of those before you shoot yourself in the foot and cause boxed sales to drop-off. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

       I don't know what change is needed, but I do know there needs to be a commitment to putting out releases that you can pop in the tray and have work without gigabyte updates required in the first 30 days.

Well.... one problem (as I see it) is that the number of testers on the Alpha and Beta runs is... very low. Once the final release comes out, the wider audience thinks that they can now install... they do, and then QA problems start to show up... stuff that was missed in the Factory cycle. I'm guilty of this myself. I will download only some of the Alphas (Milestones) along the way... I will usually install them in VirtualBox... I will not install them on the "bare metal" on my main machine. I can't afford to have the down time.... and I don't have a couple spare machines laying about. VBox is great, but it only goes so far with the real QA testing. No idea what the right answer is here... this is just an observation. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [opensuse] General Poor quality of Opensuse From: Clayton To: opensuse@opensuse.org Date: 14/07/2009 3.01

...

I don't know what change is needed, but I do know there needs to be a commitment to putting out releases that you can pop in the tray and have work without gigabyte updates required in the first 30 days.

Well.... one problem (as I see it) is that the number of testers on the Alpha and Beta runs is... very low. Once the final release comes out, the wider audience thinks that they can now install... they do, and then QA problems start to show up... stuff that was missed in the Factory cycle.

I'm guilty of this myself. I will download only some of the Alphas (Milestones) along the way... I will usually install them in VirtualBox... I will not install them on the "bare metal" on my main machine. I can't afford to have the down time.... and I don't have a couple spare machines laying about. VBox is great, but it only goes so far with the real QA testing.

No idea what the right answer is here... this is just an observation.

I am using VBox as well and among others utilizations exactly to testing 11.2 MS3. I believe this is worthwhile, despite the hardware be a virtual, there are still valuable tests to be ran, especially the ones not hardware related, as the case of a broken application, which refuses to start as for example I have noticed for FileZilla or even for X-screensaver first version on MS1. So to reduce the "gigabytes updates" THEN, is better to warn for any bugs BEFORE that the stable version be released. BR, Marco -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkpcq7gACgkQi4zJuA3lyFeRcgCfVs0ljZfiiatuEzHhk6V+lFTH UXgAoJq2kK35lLXgKj3gLDq3kF6SAz0a =MS6j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 00:47:42 Peter Nikolic wrote:

-->8 snippage 8<---

...

Beagle ! what a total pain and complete resource hog once again it needs to be a LOT easier to un-install or not install at all With the requisite warning for those that do install it beware it will hog your CPU for excessive amounts of time , Likewise Nepomuk .

KDE now i actually don't happen to believe all that has been said about the use of or rather almost ENFORCED use of KDE4.x and whilst it is sort of shaping up it will not be ready for the 11.2 release no way too much still don't play ball nice at all and needs sorting a lot to do with multimedia just plain does not work or if it does thanks to the enforced use of that pulseaudio stuff jitters and skips or as happens here when playing a DVD it stops then repeats a sylable carries on for a few seconds then does the same again well i spose if you like Norman Collier that's all well and good i think he's a prat .

I got rid of beagle easily enough. I really don't feel the need to index the world. Pulse if giving me fits on 11.1, if someone posts how to get rid of it, I'll kiss yoou... OK, only if you're a girl... But you STILL have to tell me how to get rid of pulse! :) And while we're fixing things, can we *please* fix KDE and bluetooth? I committed hereasy and booted kubuntu to see if it was a problem generic to KDE and my hardware. surprise! pairing worked there. it doesn't on 11.1... unless you do some magic incantation using gnome components, which I can never remember and the old text config files no longer work (I Think that's an upstream thing, but I'm not sure) and that make bluetooth unusable in a console only environment. ok, now I'm done ranting :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bruce Ferrell wrote:

Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

On Saturday 11 Jul 2009 00:47:42 Peter Nikolic wrote:

-->8 snippage 8<---

...

...

Beagle ! what a total pain and complete resource hog once again it needs to be a LOT easier to un-install or not install at all With the requisite warning for those that do install it beware it will hog your CPU for excessive amounts of time , Likewise Nepomuk .

KDE now i actually don't happen to believe all that has been said about the use of or rather almost ENFORCED use of KDE4.x and whilst it is sort of shaping up it will not be ready for the 11.2 release no way too much still don't play ball nice at all and needs sorting a lot to do with multimedia just plain does not work or if it does thanks to the enforced use of that pulseaudio stuff jitters and skips or as happens here when playing a DVD it stops then repeats a sylable carries on for a few seconds then does the same again well i spose if you like Norman Collier that's all well and good i think he's a prat .

I got rid of beagle easily enough. I really don't feel the need to index the world. Pulse if giving me fits on 11.1, if someone posts how to get rid of it, I'll kiss yoou... OK, only if you're a girl... But you STILL have to tell me how to get rid of pulse! :)

And while we're fixing things, can we *please* fix KDE and bluetooth? I committed hereasy and booted kubuntu to see if it was a problem generic to KDE and my hardware. surprise! pairing worked there. it doesn't on 11.1... unless you do some magic incantation using gnome components, which I can never remember and the old text config files no longer work (I Think that's an upstream thing, but I'm not sure) and that make bluetooth unusable in a console only environment.

It isn't usable in a KDE environment by most either. :( Fred -- Liberals ALWAYS, ALWAYS consider socialist dogma more important than telling the truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 26 August 2009 08:20:30 pm j debert wrote:

I have to reluctantly agree that OpenSuSE is going downhill.

Users are forced to do things someone else's way and it is very difficult to change that. With each subsequent version, it seems than more choices are dispensed with. This seems to be more like the Microsoft Way.

I am so tired of having to undo the changes that were so thoughtfully made for me without asking or telling. Unfortunately, instead of being helpful, they break things.

I am tired of the packaging blunders that destroy data when a package is upgraded and stupid install scripts that freak out when they encounter symlinks or mountpoints somewhere in /usr.

KDE4 is not useful for more than looking pretty. Compared to KDE3 it is broken or crippled badly.

What use is a keyboard switching applet when it can't change keyboard maps when the keyboard changes? Why? Oh, it was never designed to do that. Huh? Then it's NOT a keyboard SWITCHING applet, is it?

Gnome3 is just another useless Pretty Boy. It crashes without fail after 43 minutes or sooner if the system is busy.

Function is beauty. Just looking pretty is ugly. Hello?

Beagle is still too greedy and Nepomuk wants everything to itself. It takes a long time to kill nepomuk when it's running because the system is so loaded it is very slow to respond. I figured out how to drive a stake through it's evil greedy heart and it's now just an ugly memory.

Logitech/Phillips webcams haven't worked properly or reliably since 9.something with the _original_ pwc modules. If they work at all, the system eventually hangs, forcing the manual removal of it's power source. Unfortunately the original author quit, thanks to the kernel space wars, so there's no currently usable version.

acpi does not work adequately on non-laptops. Perhaps someone decided that some features are not necessary if there's no battery even when the hardware fully supports acpi. But I do commend whomever for permitting acpi to work at all on non-laptops beginning with 11.0.

Even if one is somehow able to specify which kernel to install, the user's choice is ignored and the flavour of the month multiprocessor kernel is always installed even on single processor, single core machines. The default kernel seems to be faster and smaller than the multiprocessor kernel on single processor machines so it makes no sense to force multiprocessor kernels on them. Oh, wait, that's right: users aren't given a choice of kernel at install anymore. Nevermind.

Apparently I've merely dumped one pain-in-the-ass for another. It almost makes me regret dumping Mr. Bill and his wunnerful windowz. I wonder if redhat is usable again?

== jd

If all the world's economists were laid end to end, we wouldn't reach a conclusion. -- William Baumol

Dear JD, I hate to come up with my comment. And I hate to turn this mailing list into a court of wingers. But I have to say that I had to back down to 10.3 and have trouble to keep it going in a stable fashion. Up to 10.3 all the versions were improvements and total newbies could set up their Internet comms with imagination and not too much trouble. With 11.1, I never managed to set up the network connections (the f... CD still lies on my desk doing nothing) I never got to the stage where I could have filed my registration number in. Could not select my printer's driver anymore, etc. etc. Knowing that Novell has teamed up with Microsoft I won't expect much from them any more. The only thing is that I am not giving up Linux for Bill Giggles crap heap. I do worship the idea of free bits and bytes glued together by people passionately independent who are in the end setting up a magic mystic beautiful virtual world. JPA -- LINUX SOIGNE VOS BITS !!! BUERSTET IHRE BITS SAUBER MIT LINUX !!! GIVE YOUR BITS A GOOD SHINE WITH LINUX !!! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org