RE: [opensuse] Microsoft claims software like Linux violates its patents - May 28, 2007
This is a good article; http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12212/53/ "Even if hypothetically there are patent infringements in the Linux kernel, then the open source community would do the right thing and remove the offending code and, because open source development moves so rapidly, that means Linux would no longer be infringing before it even got to court. So even if Microsoft did have a case, by the time it got to court the case would be gone and whatever damages that they were able to ask for would be very minimal." ~James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 17 May 2007, James D. Parra wrote:
This is a good article;
http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12212/53/
"Even if hypothetically there are patent infringements in the Linux kernel, then the open source community would do the right thing and remove the offending code and, because open source development moves so rapidly, that means Linux would no longer be infringing before it even got to court. So even if Microsoft did have a case, by the time it got to court the case would be gone and whatever damages that they were able to ask for would be very minimal."
The main point is that Linux kernel is a free software. Nobody sells kernel directly. Linux distributors are earning money by packaging and providing service/support. So if nobody ever sold kernel to anybody the amount owing to Microsoft in royalties is ZERO. If there is any code resembling Microsoft coding I doubt it can ever be used in court. Show me anyone going through billions lines of code since 20 years ago. Besides Linux is based on UNIX and UNIX was here before Microsoft so if there is any resemblance who is copying who? -- Regards, George Osvald OK Studio ® http://www.okstudio.com.au Email: mail@okstudio.com.au -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
George Osvald wrote:
On Thursday 17 May 2007, James D. Parra wrote:
This is a good article;
http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12212/53/
"Even if hypothetically there are patent infringements in the Linux kernel, then the open source community would do the right thing and remove the offending code and, because open source development moves so rapidly, that means Linux would no longer be infringing before it even got to court. So even if Microsoft did have a case, by the time it got to court the case would be gone and whatever damages that they were able to ask for would be very minimal."
The main point is that Linux kernel is a free software. Nobody sells kernel directly. Linux distributors are earning money by packaging and providing service/support. So if nobody ever sold kernel to anybody the amount owing to Microsoft in royalties is ZERO. If there is any code resembling Microsoft coding I doubt it can ever be used in court. Show me anyone going through billions lines of code since 20 years ago. Besides Linux is based on UNIX and UNIX was here before Microsoft so if there is any resemblance who is copying who?
If Microsoft ever started talking specifics, about any little thing, they would be dead. Completely and totally dead. There is no way they can engage the "community" on ANY specific topic without debasing, degrading themselves into the lowest of realms. Ain't gonna happen. Not now. Not ever. They can't. I wouldn't either. I wish them well, I really do. But the open source kernel has already taken over. Its just not common knowledge/press yet. Will be soon enough. It's already happened. Just the ripples need to go thru yet. Anyway, the xorg/ati thing is really ticking me off! Totally! I like the open source, but it DOES have its drawbacks. Pain in the ass thing, the display being mostly dorked. But, the system, and daemons are running fine. No problem with the stuff running, just the display twisted. Solid core, flaky top. At least you don't need to re-boot! Anoche, JF -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 16 May 2007 20:18, Jim Flanagan wrote:
If Microsoft ever started talking specifics, about any little thing, they would be dead. Completely and totally dead. There is no way they can engage the "community" on ANY specific topic without debasing, degrading themselves into the lowest of realms. Ain't gonna happen. Not now. Not ever. They can't. I wouldn't either. I wish them well, I really do. But the open source kernel has already taken over. Its just not common knowledge/press yet. Will be soon enough. It's already happened. Just the ripples need to go thru yet. I agree. But did you see Bill's lies from WinHEC... WinHOKE... they have sold 40 million licenses of Vista (78% Premium) in just 100 days! Sorry, but I almost puked--- what a liar. You know... everybody is buying it... you buy it too... the folks I know who have it removed it... and of course Mke Dell isn't even loading it... and every day you hear about 1 or two more entities dropping Windoze... so I'm not sure who these 40 million folks are... probably just licenses laying in a box... like at DELL computer . Anyway, the xorg/ati thing is really ticking me off! Totally! I like the open source, but it DOES have its drawbacks. Pain in the ass thing, the display being mostly dorked. But, the system, and daemons are running fine. No problem with the stuff running, just the display twisted. Solid core, flaky top. At least you don't need to re-boot! Right. But you know--- the ATI thing is just a carry-over from windoze days.... and ati admits it. And if you believe their hype they are going to be doing something about it. I wrote them a letter and told them that my X1050 would be the last card I buy from them unless they get serious about delivering an open driver with support and source. I'm done with them.
-- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
James D. Parra wrote:
This is a good article;
http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12212/53/
"Even if hypothetically there are patent infringements in the Linux kernel, then the open source community would do the right thing and remove the offending code and, because open source development moves so rapidly, that means Linux would no longer be infringing before it even got to court. So even if Microsoft did have a case, by the time it got to court the case would be gone and whatever damages that they were able to ask for would be very minimal."
~James
Thus explaining Microsoft's refusal to name patents. I doubt that, even given the argument that some court finds some of these patents valid, Microsoft would WANT that code removed. Kinda like SCO. And I still want to know the date on those patents Microsoft claims that it has and when it actually noticed this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, May 16, 2007 12:10:46 PM -0700, James D. Parra (Jamesp@MusicReports.com) wrote:
This is a good article;
Please, not again! Can it be good if it makes mistakes like this:
"Even if hypothetically there are patent infringements in the Linux kernel, then the open source community would do the right thing and remove the offending code
You can write or believe this only if you confuse (or want to confuse) patents with copyright, which is a pretty dangerous thing to do with FOSS. Software patents (regardless of whether they have a reason to exist) protect specific algorithm and functionalities. Copyright only protects actual text, that is the specific _incarnation_ in C, C++ or whatever, of a certain algorithm. If you copy and paste proprietary source code in your program, it is a copyright violation: to fix it, you just cancel those lines of code, and rewrite new code which has different variable names, a different order of the flow diagram, etc... but implement the same algorithm. That's it. But if there is a patent on, say, the _mathematical_ _formulas_ or the abstract flow diagram which make the Linux kernel multitasking, you cannot "remove the offending code", because what the patent forbids is any use of those algorithm and diagrams in any forms, no matter how you write the related code. The only way to "remove the offending code" of a patent is to STOP using that functionality. This has nothing to do with whether there are or not patent violations in Linux or any other GPL software. It's just a basic distinction which should not be forgotten, if nothing else to stop repeating absurdities like the one in that article, that is the illusion that you can cure a patent violation as painlessly as you cure a copyright one. Not to mention that:
and, because open source development moves so rapidly, that means Linux would no longer be infringing before it even got to court.
this would not change much for any individual or company found guilty of patent violations in the code they distributed until yesterday Marco -- Help *everybody* to love Free Standards and Free Software: http://digifreedom.net/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 18 May 2007 02:54, M. Fioretti wrote:
On Wed, May 16, 2007 12:10:46 PM -0700, James D. Parra
(Jamesp@MusicReports.com) wrote:
This is a good article;
Please, not again! Can it be good if it makes mistakes like this:
"Even if hypothetically there are patent infringements in the Linux kernel, then the open source community would do the right thing and remove the offending code
You can write or believe this only if you confuse (or want to confuse) patents with copyright, which is a pretty dangerous thing to do with FOSS. Software patents (regardless of whether they have a reason to exist) protect specific algorithm and functionalities. Copyright only protects actual text, that is the specific _incarnation_ in C, C++ or whatever, of a certain algorithm.
If you copy and paste proprietary source code in your program, it is a copyright violation: to fix it, you just cancel those lines of code, and rewrite new code which has different variable names, a different order of the flow diagram, etc... but implement the same algorithm. That's it.
But if there is a patent on, say, the _mathematical_ _formulas_ or the abstract flow diagram which make the Linux kernel multitasking, you cannot "remove the offending code", because what the patent forbids is any use of those algorithm and diagrams in any forms, no matter how you write the related code. The only way to "remove the offending code" of a patent is to STOP using that functionality.
This has nothing to do with whether there are or not patent violations in Linux or any other GPL software. It's just a basic distinction which should not be forgotten, if nothing else to stop repeating absurdities like the one in that article, that is the illusion that you can cure a patent violation as painlessly as you cure a copyright one.
Not to mention that:
and, because open source development moves so rapidly, that means Linux would no longer be infringing before it even got to court.
this would not change much for any individual or company found guilty of patent violations in the code they distributed until yesterday
Well I am not a lawyer but I think there are problems with Microsoft claims. I think under US legal system damages can only be awarded if proper notice of the patent was given. Notice is given by the patent owner by marking the patented product with the designation "patented," or the abbreviation "pat.," followed by the patent number. Such notice should be applied to the patented article or articles made by a patented process. The patent number would have to be included with every file of code they ever produced. Also since software patends are a fairly new thing they can not back date their claims to the beginning of Windows or even Linux. Furthermore it would be very hard to prove if Microsoft experienced any financial loss directly caused buy the patend infringements. Than again stranger things happened. I have been selling on line for a long time. A few years ago Some American company started accusing people selling on line of patend infringements. Apparently they owned a patend for online sales and everybody who sells using that method will have to pay royalties. When they contacted me I simply told them to f**k off but I heard that some gullible folk got conned into paying thousands of $. The main problem here is the patent office. Some years ago here in Australia some guy in Melbourne tested the idiotic system and applied for patent for a "wheel". The patent has been granted. -- Regards, George Osvald OK Studio ® http://www.okstudio.com.au Email: mail@okstudio.com.au -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
* George Osvald <mail@okstudio.com.au> [05-17-07 21:33]:
Well I am not a lawyer but I think there are problems with Microsoft claims.
And they would probably fit better in opensuse-offtopic@opensuse.org. Please have some consideration and stop filling the list and archives with wild rantings and speculation about non-technical non-openSUSE items. There are already 23 posts in this thread which contribute absolutely nothing to learning about or solving a problem with an openSUSE installation. I did say "Please" :^), -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Thu May 17 2007, George Osvald scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:
On Friday 18 May 2007 02:54, M. Fioretti wrote:
On Wed, May 16, 2007 12:10:46 PM -0700, James D. Parra
(Jamesp@MusicReports.com) wrote:
This is a good article;
Please, not again! Can it be good if it makes mistakes like this:
"Even if hypothetically there are patent infringements in the Linux kernel, then the open source community would do the right thing and remove the offending code
You can write or believe this only if you confuse (or want to confuse) patents with copyright, which is a pretty dangerous thing to do with FOSS. Software patents (regardless of whether they have a reason to exist) protect specific algorithm and functionalities. Copyright only protects actual text, that is the specific _incarnation_ in C, C++ or whatever, of a certain algorithm.
If you copy and paste proprietary source code in your program, it is a copyright violation: to fix it, you just cancel those lines of code, and rewrite new code which has different variable names, a different order of the flow diagram, etc... but implement the same algorithm. That's it.
But if there is a patent on, say, the _mathematical_ _formulas_ or the abstract flow diagram which make the Linux kernel multitasking, you cannot "remove the offending code", because what the patent forbids is any use of those algorithm and diagrams in any forms, no matter how you write the related code. The only way to "remove the offending code" of a patent is to STOP using that functionality.
This has nothing to do with whether there are or not patent violations in Linux or any other GPL software. It's just a basic distinction which should not be forgotten, if nothing else to stop repeating absurdities like the one in that article, that is the illusion that you can cure a patent violation as painlessly as you cure a copyright one.
Not to mention that:
and, because open source development moves so rapidly, that means Linux would no longer be infringing before it even got to court.
this would not change much for any individual or company found guilty of patent violations in the code they distributed until yesterday
Well I am not a lawyer but I think there are problems with Microsoft claims. I think under US legal system damages can only be awarded if proper notice of the patent was given. Notice is given by the patent owner by marking the patented product with the designation "patented," or the abbreviation "pat.," followed by the patent number. Such notice should be applied to the patented article or articles made by a patented process. The patent number would have to be included with every file of code they ever produced. Also since software patends are a fairly new thing they can not back date their claims to the beginning of Windows or even Linux. Furthermore it would be very hard to prove if Microsoft experienced any financial loss directly caused buy the patend infringements.
Than again stranger things happened. I have been selling on line for a long time. A few years ago Some American company started accusing people selling on line of patend infringements. Apparently they owned a patend for online sales and everybody who sells using that method will have to pay royalties. When they contacted me I simply told them to f**k off but I heard that some gullible folk got conned into paying thousands of $.
The main problem here is the patent office. Some years ago here in Australia some guy in Melbourne tested the idiotic system and applied for patent for a "wheel". The patent has been granted.
I think it's been obvious for some time that being "granted a patent" and having something enforcable aren't the same thing at all. Once upon a time it was, but presently it seems our patent office is so overwhelmed, and we don't appear to have an Einstein there as some other lucky country did once. That they just stamp things as patented and let the courts sort it out. It will be interesting to see if the Supremes do something useful and sort the mess, as they have hinted they might. Perhaps having a young-(ish) Chief Justice who is self IDed as a "geek" could work in favour of at least tightening what can and can not be patented. Seems it could be smart to copyright stuff tho. Maybe? or work toward the idea which works thusly in photography. The copyright is assumed as I click the shutter. Now my picture of Fuji san from the bullit train might appear to be one like many others, but it is different, as my eye and my hand made it. Others may make similar pics, but they wont make one exactly like mine, the time has passed. -- j I've lived in the real world enough, we're all here because we ain't all there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (8)
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George Osvald -
James D. Parra -
jfweber＠gilweber.com -
Jim Flanagan -
M Harris -
M. Fioretti -
Patrick Shanahan -
Pueblo Native