Re: [opensuse] konsole
On 18/06/17 11:09, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 17/06/17 08:19 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
The OP is simply asking why his konsole is not working in this simple mode :-). I have no reason to look under the hood of my car, but when it stops working and I'm off in the boonies and phone my mechanic, he tells me to do various things, check various things, some of them "under the hood", report them to him in more detail than "its not working the way It used to, the way I think it should, the way it used it..."
To me, as a 'software mechanic', I'm doing much the same as my car mechanic; try these things, look at these things and report back.
To me, even with my limited knowledge, I know that turning the ignition and there is cranking means the battery has charge enough to move the starter motor.
No, I don't expect everyone to be a 'software mechanic', though there are a lot on this list in one form or another. I do expect people who use computers to be 'logically minded", certainly enough to perform a diagnostic that explained to them, and report the results.
If you think that's unreasonable then let me know, let the whole list know.
No, what you said is not unreasonable. Quite reasonable in fact. But the OP asked a simple question and is a 'simple' user which means he needs a simple answer. If that does not suffice to get him out of trouble then one can then proceed with deeper more detailed explanations. Dumping on him, or anyone, a lot of mind-boggling detail only confuses the issue for that person. Of course, if that person, i.e. any OP, was someone like yourself then such info would be a thrill to read :-). Much has been written for the OP to help him solve his problem. We now await a report from him to see if any of that had helped him solve it :-) . Basil PS But I have a question: why did you send the above to me as a private message in the first instance knowing full well that I could not response to you in private because you put the return address as "Reply to opensuse@opensuse.org"? -- Government has become a committee for managing the affairs of the rich. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Basil Chupin: I do like your sig :) it's very true. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 17/06/17 10:12 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
PS But I have a question: why did you send the above to me as a private message in the first instance knowing full well that I could not response to you in private because you put the return address as "Reply to opensuse@opensuse.org"?
There is no such thing as a single root cause in most event and there wasn't here. The 'reply to' is a suggestion from Linda Walsh -- search the archives - to try and get around the other, which is accidentally hitting on 'reply to' rather than 'reply to list', which is what happens here, and what happens, judging by responses I see to posts I don't see, happens to others as well. You *could* have replied to me in private simply by deleting the 'reply to'. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-18 13:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 17/06/17 10:12 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
PS But I have a question: why did you send the above to me as a private message in the first instance knowing full well that I could not response to you in private because you put the return address as "Reply to opensuse@opensuse.org"?
There is no such thing as a single root cause in most event and there wasn't here.
The 'reply to' is a suggestion from Linda Walsh -- search the archives - to try and get around the other, which is accidentally hitting on 'reply to' rather than 'reply to list', which is what happens here, and what happens, judging by responses I see to posts I don't see, happens to others as well.
You should disable that. It causes people that hit "reply to" to instead send a public response. Happened to me and I was banned. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 18/06/17 07:28 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-18 13:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 17/06/17 10:12 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
PS But I have a question: why did you send the above to me as a private message in the first instance knowing full well that I could not response to you in private because you put the return address as "Reply to opensuse@opensuse.org"?
There is no such thing as a single root cause in most event and there wasn't here.
The 'reply to' is a suggestion from Linda Walsh -- search the archives - to try and get around the other, which is accidentally hitting on 'reply to' rather than 'reply to list', which is what happens here, and what happens, judging by responses I see to posts I don't see, happens to others as well.
You should disable that.
It causes people that hit "reply to" to instead send a public response. Happened to me and I was banned.
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant. We've had that argument here before and its got us nowhere. Linda's suggestion of using the 'reply to', configured specifically for this list, which is easy to do in Thunderbird, at least lets mistakes such as the one I made, and I'm sure others make too from the evidence, converge back. When my intent is private, as those who have been involved with me will know, I either use a different address (easy enough when you own a domain) or manually take out the 'reply to' and often add "OFF LIST" to the subject line. If you are unable to alter the "To ", unable to edit the subject line, then you are using a very deficient mailer. It would be nice to have a set-up, a list, a mail system, that is really smart, really resilient, that can handle people pressing 'reply' rather than 'reply to list', or even *shock horror* 'reply all'. But we don't. Would a system that only had the 'reply to' button, get rid of having both that and the 'reply to list' make life easier? It would be like other lists where the default is to reply to the list, but it makes replying to individuals more difficult. Regardless; this is what it is and personally I think Linda's suggestion was a good one. She may be a maverick in many ways, not least of all about booting systems and using initrd, but she's pretty smart. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 13:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant.
And then you get lists (I'm on a few) that are configured such that *none* of the reply options actually work other than "reply to list". So when I do want to reply privately, I have to "forward" and then manually enter the email address :-( (Or "reply" then manually delete the list and enter the recipient...) Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:03]:
On 18/06/17 13:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant.
And then you get lists (I'm on a few) that are configured such that *none* of the reply options actually work other than "reply to list". So when I do want to reply privately, I have to "forward" and then manually enter the email address :-(
(Or "reply" then manually delete the list and enter the recipient...)
point is that you can recognize the difference and still apply your choice which many mail clients make very difficult. goes back to the windows mentality that they know better what you need/can do that what you do. linux is still about choice. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 10:11 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
linux is still about choice.
At the very least. I can pick and chose and mix and match KDE/Qt apps with Gnomic/GTK apps. A lot of stuff is scripted, which makes it easy to modify. As for code, many other items I can ask for changes, enhancements of the guy or team responsible, or find out the why/wherefore of his/their design decisions, something the very nature of the Big Name Software corporations don't allow. And yes, I've done that and seen changes I've requested made. Try that with Oracle. The 'tome at the top' percolates down. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 15:11, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:03]:
On 18/06/17 13:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant.
And then you get lists (I'm on a few) that are configured such that *none* of the reply options actually work other than "reply to list". So when I do want to reply privately, I have to "forward" and then manually enter the email address :-(
(Or "reply" then manually delete the list and enter the recipient...)
point is that you can recognize the difference and still apply your choice which many mail clients make very difficult. goes back to the windows mentality that they know better what you need/can do that what you do.
linux is still about choice.
It would be nice, however, if the options "reply to list", "reply to all", "reply to sender" actually did what they said on the tin. It gets very confusing when they work correctly on some lists, they all do "reply to list" on others, and all do "reply to sender" on yet others! Yes I know I can force it to do what I want, but I'd rather not be forced to use a sledgehammer to drive a screw, when there's a nice little screwdriver that is supposed to be able to do the job :-) Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:37]:
On 18/06/17 15:11, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:03]:
On 18/06/17 13:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant.
And then you get lists (I'm on a few) that are configured such that *none* of the reply options actually work other than "reply to list". So when I do want to reply privately, I have to "forward" and then manually enter the email address :-(
(Or "reply" then manually delete the list and enter the recipient...)
point is that you can recognize the difference and still apply your choice which many mail clients make very difficult. goes back to the windows mentality that they know better what you need/can do that what you do.
linux is still about choice.
It would be nice, however, if the options "reply to list", "reply to all", "reply to sender" actually did what they said on the tin.
I have never noticed those actions not acting as expected on my mail client.
It gets very confusing when they work correctly on some lists, they all do "reply to list" on others, and all do "reply to sender" on yet others!
can you not make those setting in your mail client be determined by the particular list? I can on mine.
Yes I know I can force it to do what I want, but I'd rather not be forced to use a sledgehammer to drive a screw, when there's a nice little screwdriver that is supposed to be able to do the job :-)
it is as simple as setting a sig. why describe it as so difficult unless you are unaware of how to accomplish it or are just summarily dismissing the need? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 11:35 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:37]:
On 18/06/17 15:11, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:03]:
On 18/06/17 13:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant.
And then you get lists (I'm on a few) that are configured such that *none* of the reply options actually work other than "reply to list". So when I do want to reply privately, I have to "forward" and then manually enter the email address :-(
(Or "reply" then manually delete the list and enter the recipient...)
point is that you can recognize the difference and still apply your choice which many mail clients make very difficult. goes back to the windows mentality that they know better what you need/can do that what you do.
linux is still about choice.
It would be nice, however, if the options "reply to list", "reply to all", "reply to sender" actually did what they said on the tin.
I have never noticed those actions not acting as expected on my mail client.
+1 Thunderbird 52.2 here
It gets very confusing when they work correctly on some lists, they all do "reply to list" on others, and all do "reply to sender" on yet others!
can you not make those setting in your mail client be determined by the particular list? I can on mine.
+1
Yes I know I can force it to do what I want, but I'd rather not be forced to use a sledgehammer to drive a screw, when there's a nice little screwdriver that is supposed to be able to do the job :-)
it is as simple as setting a sig. why describe it as so difficult unless you are unaware of how to accomplish it or are just summarily dismissing the need?
Good point there, Patrick! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-18 16:35, Wols Lists wrote:
It would be nice, however, if the options "reply to list", "reply to all", "reply to sender" actually did what they said on the tin.
It gets very confusing when they work correctly on some lists, they all do "reply to list" on others, and all do "reply to sender" on yet others!
They do work on this list as long as the sender doesn't touch it. On Thunderbird I get a nice big button that says "reply to list", and another that says "reply" which sends to the poster. And in the menu there is another "reply to all". All of them work nicely and as intended. The problem is that if the sender adds an automatic "reply-to", and the replier tries a "reply to sender", in order to send a private response, it does not work, it goes to the list. One has to notice the problem and manually edit the address. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 18/06/17 12:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-18 16:35, Wols Lists wrote:
It would be nice, however, if the options "reply to list", "reply to all", "reply to sender" actually did what they said on the tin.
It gets very confusing when they work correctly on some lists, they all do "reply to list" on others, and all do "reply to sender" on yet others!
They do work on this list as long as the sender doesn't touch it. On Thunderbird I get a nice big button that says "reply to list", and another that says "reply" which sends to the poster. And in the menu there is another "reply to all". All of them work nicely and as intended.
They do. Way back in some previous century (or perhaps a galaxy far away, my memory isn't reliable in that regard) there was a version of Thunderbird that didn't. I can't imagine why someone would still be running software that old, given all the fixes and enhancements and security clean-ups that have happened since. But one this I've learnt, there re some people around who hang on to old software for a variety of reasons that seem ridiculous and ludicrous to the rest of us.
The problem is that if the sender adds an automatic "reply-to", and the replier tries a "reply to sender", in order to send a private response, it does not work, it goes to the list. One has to notice the problem and manually edit the address.
Yes, but there are a lot more people who (a) make a mistake and hit 'reply-to' rather than 'reply-to-list', and (b) it seems there's software that doesn't have a working 'reply-to-list' function. As Linda pointed out, having that extra line in the response means that mistakes will be self correcting. A lot of people don't like Linda because she's an awkward cuss, argumentative and does a lot of things (like boot her machines) differently, and because they don't like her they discard everything she has to say, even if it is insightful. I think she's an awkward cuss but I also thing she has a damn good reason for the way she boots her machines and he use-case arguments are quite rational; they just don't apply to or appeal to me. But then some people have piercings and tattoos, and that doesn't appeal to me personally either. So what? Get over it. Hi, Linda, you awkward cuss. I wish there were more awkward like you around, the world would be a better place if there were. We need more people thinking things though differently. But rationally! Let me repeat that: Linda's reasoning is quite rational, even if you don't agree with it. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-18 21:32, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 18/06/17 12:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-18 16:35, Wols Lists wrote:
It would be nice, however, if the options "reply to list", "reply to all", "reply to sender" actually did what they said on the tin.
It gets very confusing when they work correctly on some lists, they all do "reply to list" on others, and all do "reply to sender" on yet others!
They do work on this list as long as the sender doesn't touch it. On Thunderbird I get a nice big button that says "reply to list", and another that says "reply" which sends to the poster. And in the menu there is another "reply to all". All of them work nicely and as intended.
They do. Way back in some previous century (or perhaps a galaxy far away, my memory isn't reliable in that regard) there was a version of Thunderbird that didn't.
Yes, reply to list was an addition at some point.
I can't imagine why someone would still be running software that old, given all the fixes and enhancements and security clean-ups that have happened since.
But one this I've learnt, there re some people around who hang on to old software for a variety of reasons that seem ridiculous and ludicrous to the rest of us.
The problem is that if the sender adds an automatic "reply-to", and the replier tries a "reply to sender", in order to send a private response, it does not work, it goes to the list. One has to notice the problem and manually edit the address.
Yes, but there are a lot more people who (a) make a mistake and hit 'reply-to' rather than 'reply-to-list', and (b) it seems there's software that doesn't have a working 'reply-to-list' function.
But with your/Linda change, a private reply goes to the list, which is worse. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 19/06/17 05:56 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Way back in some previous century (or perhaps a galaxy far away, my memory isn't reliable in that regard) there was a version of Thunderbird that didn't.
Yes, reply to list was an addition at some point.
Does anyone recall when? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/06/17 15:50, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 19/06/17 05:56 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Way back in some previous century (or perhaps a galaxy far away, my memory isn't reliable in that regard) there was a version of Thunderbird that didn't.
Yes, reply to list was an addition at some point.
Does anyone recall when?
It's in thunderbird 38.7.0. And yes, I will upgrade - as soon as I'm confident my computer won't mess up the upgrade :-( (And as for people not upgrading, some people have learning difficulties and cannot cope with change that well. I'm dreading the inevitable fallout with my wife when this machine DOES get upgraded...) Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/06/17 11:42 AM, Wols Lists wrote:
On 19/06/17 15:50, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 19/06/17 05:56 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Way back in some previous century (or perhaps a galaxy far away, my memory isn't reliable in that regard) there was a version of Thunderbird that didn't.
Yes, reply to list was an addition at some point.
Does anyone recall when?
It's in thunderbird 38.7.0.
And yes, I will upgrade - as soon as I'm confident my computer won't mess up the upgrade :-(
So, Full Disclosure Time what is your machine? What chip/revision? How much memory? What level of the OS are you running? Are yo still on 11.x? 12.x? 13.x? Or have you LEAPed? What kernel are you running? I presume you are running konsole under KDE. What version of KDE? of konsole RPM is good for reporting on what software you have :-)
(And as for people not upgrading, some people have learning difficulties and cannot cope with change that well. I'm dreading the inevitable fallout with my wife when this machine DOES get upgraded...)
The nice thing about so much of Linux, Thunderbird, Firefox, Open/libreoffice is that, unlike Microsoft and Windows and Office, the UI stays pretty much the same across releases. Yes, you have bug fixes, yes yu have enhancements (like the ability to reply-to-list that was added to Thunderbird back when), but for the most part it stays the same. if you make a few not very strenuous precautions, such as having /home and /srv on separate partitions and not reformatting them with an upgrade so that all your per user settings and all your web stuff is unchanged, and taking backups of any part of /etc config files you've altered (sudoers, for example, the password/group files, others), so that they can be restored after the upgrade, then its quite painless. I recall a friend who ran a linux-variant on a VM on a big IBM engine. The users were used to the very disruptive IBM upgrades and those that also used the Linux were, just as you are, apprehensive about the linux upgrade. He did the upgrade over the weekend, nonetheless, and expected a barrage of complaints come Monday morning. It didn't happen. No-one noticed. It was over a month before anyone noticed anything. I'm not saying that j. random upgrade will always be painless. I've seen them go wrong, I've had them go wrong. But they went wrong for me becuase I tried taking short cuts, didn't save config, reformated or failed to format, didn't make backups ... didn't think it through and prepare a check list to make sure I hadn't missed anything. Back up your /etc/ There are part of /var that might need backing up, things to do with crontabs, perhaps thing to do with Postfix, or with your domain management. Make a list, Check it three times. Leave it out on your desk, take it to be. You'll do a "oh, yes, I forgot that, I'd better add it" a few times over the next few days. (I usually remember stuff in the shower and can't write it down.) UNLESS YOU PREPARE AN UPGRADE WILL NOT BE JUST DISRUPTIVE, IT WILL BE DESTRUCTIVE! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/06/17 17:29, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 19/06/17 11:42 AM, Wols Lists wrote:
On 19/06/17 15:50, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 19/06/17 05:56 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Way back in some previous century (or perhaps a galaxy far away, my memory isn't reliable in that regard) there was a version of Thunderbird that didn't.
Yes, reply to list was an addition at some point.
Does anyone recall when?
It's in thunderbird 38.7.0.
And yes, I will upgrade - as soon as I'm confident my computer won't mess up the upgrade :-(
So, Full Disclosure Time
what is your machine? What chip/revision? How much memory?
This machine running thunderbird? Homebuilt, AMD Phenom X-III, 16GB (Computer running konsole - Toshiba Satellite L670, Intel twin core, 3GB.)
What level of the OS are you running? Are yo still on 11.x? 12.x? 13.x? Or have you LEAPed?
This machine running TB - gentoo. Machine running konsole - Leap 42.2.
What kernel are you running? I presume you are running konsole under KDE. What version of KDE? of konsole
This machine - KDE4. Machine running konsole - whatever's up-to-date.
RPM is good for reporting on what software you have :-)
(And as for people not upgrading, some people have learning difficulties and cannot cope with change that well. I'm dreading the inevitable fallout with my wife when this machine DOES get upgraded...)
The nice thing about so much of Linux, Thunderbird, Firefox, Open/libreoffice is that, unlike Microsoft and Windows and Office, the UI stays pretty much the same across releases. Yes, you have bug fixes, yes yu have enhancements (like the ability to reply-to-list that was added to Thunderbird back when), but for the most part it stays the same.
if you make a few not very strenuous precautions, such as having /home and /srv on separate partitions and not reformatting them with an upgrade so that all your per user settings and all your web stuff is unchanged, and taking backups of any part of /etc config files you've altered (sudoers, for example, the password/group files, others), so that they can be restored after the upgrade, then its quite painless.
I recall a friend who ran a linux-variant on a VM on a big IBM engine. The users were used to the very disruptive IBM upgrades and those that also used the Linux were, just as you are, apprehensive about the linux upgrade. He did the upgrade over the weekend, nonetheless, and expected a barrage of complaints come Monday morning. It didn't happen. No-one noticed. It was over a month before anyone noticed anything.
I'm not saying that j. random upgrade will always be painless. I've seen them go wrong, I've had them go wrong. But they went wrong for me becuase I tried taking short cuts, didn't save config, reformated or failed to format, didn't make backups ... didn't think it through and prepare a check list to make sure I hadn't missed anything.
Back up your /etc/ There are part of /var that might need backing up, things to do with crontabs, perhaps thing to do with Postfix, or with your domain management.
Make a list, Check it three times. Leave it out on your desk, take it to be. You'll do a "oh, yes, I forgot that, I'd better add it" a few times over the next few days. (I usually remember stuff in the shower and can't write it down.)
UNLESS YOU PREPARE AN UPGRADE WILL NOT BE JUST DISRUPTIVE, IT WILL BE DESTRUCTIVE!
I've had a few disasters like that - including in a work setting :-) That's why I'm paranoid :-) But I think it's the KDE4/KDE5 upgrade that worries me most - not because I think it will be a problem in itself, but because my wife will find it traumatic. She's still on XP, because I can't get 7 to behave similarly. Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/06/17 03:31 PM, Wols Lists wrote:
UNLESS YOU PREPARE AN UPGRADE WILL NOT BE JUST DISRUPTIVE, IT WILL BE DESTRUCTIVE!
I've had a few disasters like that - including in a work setting :-) That's why I'm paranoid :-)
Hand in hand with all that, the beast way to deal with the risks is, as I'm saying, as many people have pointed before now, by proper presentation.
But I think it's the KDE4/KDE5 upgrade that worries me most - not because I think it will be a problem in itself, but because my wife will find it traumatic.
I made that transition without even recognizing that I'd done it when I installed 42.1 with a few extra repositories. Even though the lifetime of KDE4 some things go "rearranged", and the "5" was just more rearrangement. After a while I noticed that when I ran 'ps' some of the applications listed had a "5" appended. But I play around with themes often enough that some of visual changes were subsumed by changing themes. So I tried running both systemsettings and systemsettings5 Yes there was a difference, but if anything it *looked* like a change in theme and icon set. What each thing did was the same. Now perhaps if you care to read http://www.zdnet.com/blog/murphy/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/1137 you might get the point that for us Linux types, a rearrangement of the positions, the labels and so forth is no big deal.But should it be for a Windows user? Well perhaps ...
She's still on XP, because I can't get 7 to behave similarly.
For my sins, over the years, various employers have thrust upon me corporate laptops that run Windows, and required me to use, as might be appropriate, custom applications, as well as Microsoft Office. I've not been allowed to install 'stuff that actually works' such as Thunderbird in place of, in one case, Lotus Notes, OpenOffice in place of Word and Powerpoint and Excel, Firefox in place of Internet Explorer. I've lived though 'upgrades' that are indeed like the examples in the above article. I recall the shift in Office from the menu bar to the "ribbon", which baffled and impeded most of the people I worked with until we were sent on a special training course (which I skipped after the first morning). A manager I mentioned this to at another engagement where we were all using AIX said that Microsoft fostered "learned disability", that normal people, kids that had not been nurtured at the Microsoft teat, could adapt back and forth between, say, Android at different version, Apple on iAnyting, Linux and Windows, back and forth, just exploring the options, experimenting with little fear of 'breaking things'. I'm paranoid, but part of that is (a) I make backups and (b) if I don't know what the limits are I might do something really really terrible, so lets learn in a 'playpen/safety-belt' setting. I recall once teaching some user and meeting a young woman who was clearly nervous, She say back from the keyboard and reached out to peck at keys as if the keyboard was going to bite her. I told her not to be afraid of it, I took it and slammed it on the desk a few times, threw it against the wall. Keys fell out and scattered. I picked them up and stuck them back, plugged the keyboard back in, logged in, did some work, typing at full speed. No problems. "How could you do that?!?!" Its like Humpty-Dumpty said about words, who is the master? I think your problem is that because you can get Linux to "look" like "Richmond" with the right theme and icons and font, you cam make W/7 look and feel like like W/XP. Maybe what she needs is an iPad. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op maandag 19 juni 2017 17:42:08 CEST schreef Wols Lists:
On 19/06/17 15:50, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 19/06/17 05:56 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Way back in some previous century (or perhaps a galaxy far away, my memory isn't reliable in that regard) there was a version of Thunderbird that didn't.>> Yes, reply to list was an addition at some point.
Does anyone recall when?
It's in thunderbird 38.7.0.
And yes, I will upgrade - as soon as I'm confident my computer won't mess up the upgrade :-(
(And as for people not upgrading, some people have learning difficulties and cannot cope with change that well. I'm dreading the inevitable fallout with my wife when this machine DOES get upgraded...)
Cheers, Wol And what would make you confident that your computer won't mess up the upgrade?
-- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 18:47:01 +0200 Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
And what would make you confident that your computer won't mess up the upgrade?
Rollback that I absolutely trusted. Which doesn't exist :( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-18 21:32, Anton Aylward wrote:
Yes, but there are a lot more people who (a) make a mistake and hit 'reply-to' rather than 'reply-to-list', and (b) it seems there's software that doesn't have a working 'reply-to-list' function.
But with your/Linda change, a private reply goes to the list, which is worse.
---- Not really -- if you are sending doo doo to a person, why not do it in public? I'm a firm believer that such is a form of instant karma. ;-) The problem comes when the *list* software "munges" the "Reply-To" field for everyone. That's where a danger can come in, since the "Reply-To" field gets messed-with for *everyone* -- even if the sender preferred your response to goto the list. What Anton is saying, 'generally(**)', is "please send responses to my list-email, TO the list, I don't want them sent, "personally", to me. That is his right. ** - where I think there could be a problem, is if Anton has the "Reply-To" field set to "opensuse(at)opensuse.org" for every email coming from his "opensuse" account (at) HIS.domain, and then uses that email setting to send an email "off list". In that case, replying to him, personally, in response to a personal email from from 'him' (that wasn't sent to the list), would, *surprisingly*, be directed to the opensuse(at)opensuse.org list. FWIW, I think on 1 or 2 occasions I've noted an email sent from his "opensuse" account to the opensuse-factory account, where I responded and had my response end up (somewhat confusingly) on the wrong list. I accept that such was my fault for my not looking at the "To" field of my outgoing email (I too fall into habits), while at the same time remind those who use "power" features of email, that "with great power comes great responsibility" (quote in a spiderman movie; accusations of painful "corn", accepted). ;^) -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 19:45, L A Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-18 21:32, Anton Aylward wrote:
Yes, but there are a lot more people who (a) make a mistake and hit 'reply-to' rather than 'reply-to-list', and (b) it seems there's software that doesn't have a working 'reply-to-list' function.
But with your/Linda change, a private reply goes to the list, which is worse.
---- Not really -- if you are sending doo doo to a person, why not do it in public? I'm a firm believer that such is a form of instant karma. ;-)
The problem comes when the *list* software "munges" the "Reply-To" field for everyone. That's where a danger can come in, since the "Reply-To" field gets messed-with for *everyone* -- even if the sender preferred your response to goto the list.
What Anton is saying, 'generally(**)', is "please send responses to my list-email, TO the list, I don't want them sent, "personally", to me. That is his right.
** - where I think there could be a problem, is if Anton has the "Reply-To" field set to "opensuse(at)opensuse.org" for every email coming from his "opensuse" account (at) HIS.domain, and then uses that email setting to send an email "off list". In that case, replying to him, personally, in response to a personal email from from 'him' (that wasn't sent to the list), would, *surprisingly*, be directed to the opensuse(at)opensuse.org list.
FWIW, I think on 1 or 2 occasions I've noted an email sent from his "opensuse" account to the opensuse-factory account, where I responded and had my response end up (somewhat confusingly) on the wrong list. I accept that such was my fault for my not looking at the "To" field of my outgoing email (I too fall into habits), while at the same time remind those who use "power" features of email, that "with great power comes great responsibility" (quote in a spiderman movie; accusations of painful "corn", accepted). ;^)
-l
What a lot of goobly-dook. In Thunderbird one has to _deliberately_ use the Reply To Address field which, by default, is 'blank'. If I find that there is one more instance of having a private post turning up in this public list then I shall simply and immediately send all posts from that person to the poo-poo bucket. (And now, of course, every Tom, Dick, and Harry will activate the 'Reply To' option. Patrick, I will watching your posts very carefully :-) ) BC -- Government has become a committee for managing the affairs of the rich. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 06:14 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
If I find that there is one more instance of having a private post turning up in this public list then I shall simply and immediately send all posts from that person to the poo-poo bucket.
What about the people who, used to how every other list they subscribe to works, press "reply-to" rather than "reply-to-list:, either because of habit, enthusiasm or caffeine withdrawal symptoms? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 21:19, Anton Aylward wrote:
If I find that there is one more instance of having a private post turning up in this public list then I shall simply and immediately send all posts from that person to the poo-poo bucket. What about the people who, used to how every other list they subscribe to works,
On 23/06/17 06:14 AM, Basil Chupin wrote: press "reply-to" rather than "reply-to-list:, either because of habit, enthusiasm or caffeine withdrawal symptoms?
Tuff bananas. Why should _I_ have to watch every post when I may want to respond to it in private to make sure that it is being correctly addressed as a private post? If "they" cannot control and manage their mailer then at my end they will be politely directed to the poo-poo bucket. If they cannot be bothered to manage their end I cannot be bothered wasting my time reading their posts. BC -- Government has become a committee for managing the affairs of the rich. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Basil Chupin wrote:
Tuff bananas. Why should _I_ have to watch every post when I may want to respond to it in private to make sure that it is being correctly addressed as a private post?
You are joking, right? "Why should you need to watch where you send things in order to have them go where you want them to go?" Is that really what you are asking or am I misunderstanding something? Don't you usually need to look up someone's phone number when you call them (unless you have it on per-person speed dial). With email, I'd assume you'd have anyone you want to write to, in private, on some local alias controlled by you -- certainly not some function control.ed by other people. How often do you expect to control the email or return addresses in email authored and controlled by other people? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [06-23-17 06:17]: [...]
What a lot of goobly-dook.
In Thunderbird one has to _deliberately_ use the Reply To Address field which, by default, is 'blank'.
If I find that there is one more instance of having a private post turning up in this public list then I shall simply and immediately send all posts from that person to the poo-poo bucket.
(And now, of course, every Tom, Dick, and Harry will activate the 'Reply To' option. Patrick, I will watching your posts very carefully :-) )
good luck. I firmly believe list traffic should *only* go to the list unless specifically requested otherwise. I do not set "Reply-To:" and have it visible in my email client. I have on rare occasion not noticed it set by whomever generated the post and failed to clear it, but that *is* human error :). -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 21:55, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [06-23-17 06:17]: [...]
What a lot of goobly-dook.
In Thunderbird one has to _deliberately_ use the Reply To Address field which, by default, is 'blank'.
If I find that there is one more instance of having a private post turning up in this public list then I shall simply and immediately send all posts from that person to the poo-poo bucket.
(And now, of course, every Tom, Dick, and Harry will activate the 'Reply To' option. Patrick, I will watching your posts very carefully :-) ) good luck. I firmly believe list traffic should *only* go to the list unless specifically requested otherwise.
What did you just say? Ah, "unless specifically requested otherwise". Typing in words at the beginning of a msg which state, "Private, off the list msg", or pressing the "Reply" icon and not the "Reply To List" or "Reply To All" icons doesn't fall within this condition you just mentioned?
I do not set "Reply-To:" and have it visible in my email client. I have on rare occasion not noticed it set by whomever generated the post and failed to clear it, but that *is* human error :).
OK, look everybody, I think this whole thing has gone far enough and for long enough. Attached is the copy of the Header (part of, ie) of Anton's post which started this discussion. Now, Patrick, how does what Anton sent me hold up to what you said above? Anton sends me a PRIVATE msg -- it is not addressed to me with a CC: to the list or vice-versa -- and so I press the Reply icon in my Thunderbird but my reply is sent to the list. Anyway, you, and everyone else, can work out why I queried this event and at this point in time as far as I am concerned the "Case is closed". But I will send posts to the poo-poo slop-bucket... BC -- Government has become a committee for managing the affairs of the rich.
* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [06-23-17 20:00]:
On 23/06/17 21:55, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [06-23-17 06:17]: [...]
What a lot of goobly-dook.
In Thunderbird one has to _deliberately_ use the Reply To Address field which, by default, is 'blank'.
If I find that there is one more instance of having a private post turning up in this public list then I shall simply and immediately send all posts from that person to the poo-poo bucket.
(And now, of course, every Tom, Dick, and Harry will activate the 'Reply To' option. Patrick, I will watching your posts very carefully :-) ) good luck. I firmly believe list traffic should *only* go to the list unless specifically requested otherwise.
What did you just say? Ah, "unless specifically requested otherwise". Typing in words at the beginning of a msg which state, "Private, off the list msg", or pressing the "Reply" icon and not the "Reply To List" or "Reply To All" icons doesn't fall within this condition you just mentioned?
no, what one types in the msg body does not affect on it's intended delivery. and the *Reply* options still depend on whether "Reply-To:" is set or empty.
OK, look everybody, I think this whole thing has gone far enough and for long enough.
Attached is the copy of the Header (part of, ie) of Anton's post which started this discussion. Now, Patrick, how does what Anton sent me hold up to what you said above? Anton sends me a PRIVATE msg -- it is not addressed to me with a CC: to the list or vice-versa -- and so I press the Reply icon in my Thunderbird but my reply is sent to the list.
why didn't you just add text to the post instead of attaching a large wastful picture? and the "Reply-To:" header you picture was from the list software, not my email client. and I do have the original. to me with a C -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 02:59, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Basil Chupin <> [06-23-17 20:00]:
On 23/06/17 21:55, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Basil Chupin <> [06-23-17 06:17]: [...]
What a lot of goobly-dook.
In Thunderbird one has to _deliberately_ use the Reply To Address field which, by default, is 'blank'.
If I find that there is one more instance of having a private post turning up in this public list then I shall simply and immediately send all posts from that person to the poo-poo bucket.
(And now, of course, every Tom, Dick, and Harry will activate the 'Reply To' option. Patrick, I will watching your posts very carefully :-) ) good luck. I firmly believe list traffic should *only* go to the list unless specifically requested otherwise.
What did you just say? Ah, "unless specifically requested otherwise". Typing in words at the beginning of a msg which state, "Private, off the list msg", or pressing the "Reply" icon and not the "Reply To List" or "Reply To All" icons doesn't fall within this condition you just mentioned?
no, what one types in the msg body does not affect on it's intended delivery.
No, but it expresses an intention: this message is private, I will send it privately.
and the *Reply* options still depend on whether "Reply-To:" is set or empty.
OK, look everybody, I think this whole thing has gone far enough and for long enough.
Attached is the copy of the Header (part of, ie) of Anton's post which started this discussion. Now, Patrick, how does what Anton sent me hold up to what you said above? Anton sends me a PRIVATE msg -- it is not addressed to me with a CC: to the list or vice-versa -- and so I press the Reply icon in my Thunderbird but my reply is sent to the list.
why didn't you just add text to the post instead of attaching a large wastful picture?
and the "Reply-To:" header you picture was from the list software, not my email client. and I do have the original.
No, that was a private message. See the "To:". So you don't have the original, either. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [06-23-17 21:56]:
On 2017-06-24 02:59, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [...]
and the "Reply-To:" header you picture was from the list software, not my email client. and I do have the original.
No, that was a private message. See the "To:". So you don't have the original, either.
since I was specifically mention, I assume he is referring to my response post which I do have the original. I also understand that I can specify in the msg body that the message is private, but unless I ensure it goes only to the intended recipient, it certainly does not remain private. it is *my* responsibility if I intend to post privately that I do so, no matter what the content/context of the msg body. when we reach mind control of objects, perhaps intent will be followed but "to err is human" I suspect will still apply. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 04:09, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [06-23-17 21:56]:
On 2017-06-24 02:59, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [...]
and the "Reply-To:" header you picture was from the list software, not my email client. and I do have the original.
No, that was a private message. See the "To:". So you don't have the original, either.
since I was specifically mention, I assume he is referring to my response post which I do have the original.
No, the photo has a "From" that is not you.
I also understand that I can specify in the msg body that the message is private, but unless I ensure it goes only to the intended recipient, it certainly does not remain private. it is *my* responsibility if I intend to post privately that I do so, no matter what the content/context of the msg body.
You don't understand. Someone sends a private, off list, message, and says so in the body. Yet there is a reply-to header in that post message that makes the reply to that post go, unintentionally, back to the mail list, in public, unless you happen to look carefully, edit the "To:" header and write, manually, the address of the private recipient. Yes, error is human, I know. But it has happened more than once ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
You don't understand. Someone sends a private, off list, message, and says so in the body. Yet there is a reply-to header in that post message that makes the reply to that post go, unintentionally,
Where do you see that the "Reply-To" is "unintentional? I thought it was intentional. Is there some other context I'm missing? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 21:17, L A Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
You don't understand. Someone sends a private, off list, message, and says so in the body. Yet there is a reply-to header in that post message that makes the reply to that post go, unintentionally,
Where do you see that the "Reply-To" is "unintentional? I thought it was intentional.
Is there some other context I'm missing?
No, it wasn't intentional. Anton said so. The message was clearly labelled "private" in the text. Apparently the reply-to is written automatically by his software and he sometimes forgets to delete that header. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 23/06/17 07:59 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
Attached is the copy of the Header (part of, ie) of Anton's post which started this discussion. Now, Patrick, how does what Anton sent me hold up to what you said above? Anton sends me a PRIVATE msg -- it is not addressed to me with a CC: to the list or vice-versa -- and so I press the Reply icon in my Thunderbird but my reply is sent to the list.
Unlike you I'm not infallible. I'm one of those people who sometimes presses the 'reply-to' button rather than the 'reply-to-list' button by mistake. As others have pointed out, to reply to the list on this list one MUST use the 'reply-to-list', whereas for other lists the 'reply-to' sends to the immediate source of the message, that is the list re-mailing software, not the message author. Judging by what others on the list have to say, I'm not the only here who isn't infallible. Ad no, my post didn't start this discussion. Its one that we have here with a period of about 18 months to two years. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Basil Chupin wrote:
OK, look everybody, I think this whole thing has gone far enough and for long enough.
Attached is the copy of the Header (part of, ie) of Anton's post which started this discussion.
--- I see the message... from Anton, and the 1st 2 lines say: Subject: Re [opensuse] konsole Reply-To: opensuse@opensuse.org So when you hit "Reply" it should go to opensuse@opensuse.org. Are you saying that isn't what happened? -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 21:14, Linda Walsh wrote:
Basil Chupin wrote:
OK, look everybody, I think this whole thing has gone far enough and for long enough.
Attached is the copy of the Header (part of, ie) of Anton's post which started this discussion.
--- I see the message... from Anton, and the 1st 2 lines say:
Subject: Re [opensuse] konsole Reply-To: opensuse@opensuse.org
So when you hit "Reply" it should go to opensuse@opensuse.org. Are you saying that isn't what happened?
Gosh. It has been explained several times, you only have to read and check the photo. It was a reply to a private message that had a reply-to set to the list, so the intended private response went public by accident. Yes, this was an unintended error. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 24/06/17 05:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
It was a reply to a private message that had a reply-to set to the list, so the intended private response went public by accident.
I checked my logs and it was the other wy round. It was intended for the list but I pressed "reply" instead of "reply to list"
Yes, this was an unintended error.
I'm not infallible. I fully appreciate that some people here are but I'm not one of them. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 05:14 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
In Thunderbird one has to_deliberately_ use the Reply To Address field which, by default, is 'blank'.
I have Thunderbird set to automatically include my address as a reply to. Several other people do also. I usually get two replies to many messages. One to the list and one to me directly. When I'm replying to a list message and the sender has a a reply to set I remove the senders address. [ most of the time ] -- "The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things: Of shoes-and ships-and sealing-wax- Of cabbages-and kings-- And why the sea is boiling hot- And whether pigs have wings." Lewis Carroll _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 06/23/2017 05:14 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
I have Thunderbird set to automatically include my address as a reply to. Several other people do also.
The default is to always send a copy to the person you are replying to. That default is *required* by email "standards" (RFC's).
When I'm replying to a list message and the sender has a a reply to set I remove the senders address. [ most of the time ]
You don't want the original note-writer to see or respond to your reply? That's what /can/ happen (and sometimes /does/ if you delete me off a "Reply-To" list). Like many or most net-denizens that get a fair amount of email, I "pre"-filter my incoming email into folders before I even open a mail-reader (some use procmail, I use a perl-script predating a reliable procmail). My email filters, look mostly at "To/Cc" and "From" headers. If an email has me in the "To/Cc" line it is delivered to a "ToMe" folder, as it's addressed to or a response to me. It is checked nearly everytime I check email. If an email is addressed to "some-list" I'm on, it goes that list's folder. They are checked on a "time_available" and "list-interest" basis. Example being "Opensuse_Info+Drama" ranking higher than "Sewing_&_Knitting", but less-than "Fav-Anime_News". OF NOTE: When "time_available < 0" : SKIP. --- So I'm more likely to see an email addressed "to me", and, usually, in less time. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
L A Walsh composed on 2017-06-23 10:34 (UTC-0700): ...
The default is to always send a copy to the person you are replying to. That default is *required* by email "standards" (RFC's).
For what definition of "person"? The sender of a list message that came by way of the list is the list. But for (without which) having subscribed to the list, I would not get messages composed by list subscribers using the list as exclusive destination address. Logic requires the destination resulting from using a reply button to be the list from whence it came, not the originator of the message's content. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
L A Walsh composed on 2017-06-23 10:34 (UTC-0700): ...
The default is to always send a copy to the person you are replying to. That default is *required* by email "standards" (RFC's).
For what definition of "person"? The sender of a list message that came by way of the list is the list. But for (without which) having subscribed to the list, I would not get messages composed by list subscribers using the list as exclusive destination address. Logic requires the destination resulting from using a reply button to be the list from whence it came, not the originator of the message's content.
Good response, however, Without the originator of the message's content, there would be no list. You can't have one w/o the other, so you honor both with a reply -- the default when you hit 'Reply-All'. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 02:35 PM, L A Walsh wrote:
Without the originator of the message's content, there would be no list.
True, but not germane. Reply list gets to everyone, even if they only see it later
You can't have one w/o the other, so you honor both with a
You do. Most of us don't. Our mail probably gets missed by you. We've all given up any hope of getting you to do it our way Linda. You're gonna do it the way you want no matter what the list policy is or no matter what anybody says. Sounds fine to me. I just can't get all worked up about such things these days. If I do, I know where the beer fridge is. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
L A Walsh composed on 2017-06-23 14:35 (UTC-0700): .
Felix Miata wrote: .
L A Walsh composed on 2017-06-23 10:34 (UTC-0700): ...
The default is to always send a copy to the person you are replying to. That default is *required* by email "standards" (RFC's).
. For what definition of "person"? The sender of a list message that came by way of the list is the list. But for (without which) having subscribed to the list, I would not get messages composed by list subscribers using the list as exclusive destination address. Logic requires the destination resulting from using a reply button to be the list from whence it came, not the originator of the message's content.
Good response, however, . Without the originator of the message's content, there would be no list. . You can't have one w/o the other,. True, but the list is the the last stop before arrival here.
so you honor both with a reply -- the default when you hit 'Reply-All . One can please some of the people some of the time. Those complaining the loudest seem to be those who will not cope with duplicate copies of the same
It's a public discussion list. Peer review keeps quality up, which necessitates most replies be public. . post. I can't remember names most of the time, much less which name prefers how many copies show up in her mailbox if I reply, or all among 70+ subscriptions automatically direct responses where. The only list posts that bother me more than nominally are those with attribution stripped. We can only play the cards we are dealt. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-23 19:34, L A Walsh wrote:
Billie Walsh wrote:
On 06/23/2017 05:14 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
I have Thunderbird set to automatically include my address as a reply to. Several other people do also.
The default is to always send a copy to the person you are replying to. That default is *required* by email "standards" (RFC's).
Not in this list.
When I'm replying to a list message and the sender has a a reply to set I remove the senders address. [ most of the time ]
You don't want the original note-writer to see or respond to your reply? That's what /can/ happen (and sometimes /does/ if you delete me off a "Reply-To" list).
Most people here do not want both replies, direct and on list. Some will get angry if they do. It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 23/06/17 02:28 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Most people here do not want both replies, direct and on list. Some will get angry if they do.
Exasperated the first time. Angry subsequently.
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
Of course - you are subscribing to the list so you see the response there. Given that, there is no need to have a copy sent to the address you are using for the list as well. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
Of course - you are subscribing to the list so you see the response there. Given that, there is no need to have a copy sent to the address you are using for the list as well.
I don't always read every email every day. I'm sure I've missed lots of emails in the past on threads to which I'm participating. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers. — Bernard Haisch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 12:26 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
Of course - you are subscribing to the list so you see the response there. Given that, there is no need to have a copy sent to the address you are using for the list as well.
I don't always read every email every day. I'm sure I've missed lots of emails in the past on threads to which I'm participating.
Greg
And the way topics wander around on this list that is a GOOD THING. I've never seen a list where thread jacking is so rampant. With what ever mail user agent you are using, we can all manage to apply filters that look for your own name in the message body and highlight those messages. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-23 21:26, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
Of course - you are subscribing to the list so you see the response there. Given that, there is no need to have a copy sent to the address you are using for the list as well.
I don't always read every email every day. I'm sure I've missed lots of emails in the past on threads to which I'm participating.
On Thunderbird, I sort by thread, and I have a filter that automatically marks with "watch" those threads in which I participate. I only have to browse the collapsed threads, and see which are unread. There is also a filter in "View" to "view threads with unread posts" or similar wording. So even weeks later I can notice them. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Anton Aylward wrote:
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
Of course - you are subscribing to the list so you see the response there.
--- Where is "there"? If you have 70-80 lists that each have their own folder, do you read every messages of every list in every folder every day? I don't have that amount of time. If people respond to my response, and follow email RFC's, then I get a copy that goes into a *separate* "toMe" folder, so I know that someone responded to something I said and that I pay attention to what they said. But if someone is saying something **to the list** (not to me, and not in response to me), I may not read it -- I often don't have time to read all of the 293 messages I've averaged/day this month. Used to hit > 1000/day. If you have that amount of free time, more power to you. I don't. So again, where did you send it, to a folder or to me, personally? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 24/06/17 03:35 PM, L A Walsh wrote:
If you have 70-80 lists that each have their own folder, do you read every messages of every list in every folder every day?
I don't have that amount of time.
Other Thunderbird users, the Gmail users, have all mentioned ways of sorting, tagging and marking threads. Thunderbird has the ability to flag new activity in chose threads. I've also mentioned, I think John has mentioned too, that using IMAP we don't need to read the messages. We can just see from the headers if there's anything of interest (or disinterest.). I'm sure that there is or could be a sophisticated 'assistant', some kind of 'neural network' that learns what you choose to read, what you read on the off-chance it is interesting. We already have the Bayesian analysis in 'SpamAssassin', perhaps that kind of learning can be extended. There's a lot of things that 'labour saving' and 'time saving' "gadgets" and technology has done for us. I don't have time to do the laundry the way my great grandmother's maid did; I have this big white box in my basement, dump my laundry in it and press a button - an hour later I take the clothes out and put them back in my closet and drawers. Meanwhile I can do other things. I suppose you can call that 'saving time' . The equivalent "white box and press button" isn't quite there for cleaning my mail, but there are an amazing number of tools that do help. I look at the SpamAssassin reports and see the number of emails that I was sent that I never even saw. WOW! No, I don't read every message on this list. It's easy enough to tell ones that are not relevant to me. It's also easy enough to recognise the people, you being one, Linda, who are worth reading anyway :-) -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 21:35, L A Walsh wrote:
Anton Aylward wrote:
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
Of course - you are subscribing to the list so you see the response there.
--- Where is "there"?
In the list.
If you have 70-80 lists that each have their own folder, do you read every messages of every list in every folder every day?
I simply check those threads in which I already participated to see if there are new responses. And it is trivial to notice if the response is for a post of me.
If people respond to my response, and follow email RFC's, then I get a copy that goes into a *separate* "toMe" folder, so I know that someone responded to something I said and that I pay attention to what they said.
No, the rule in this mail list is to reply only to the list. No such RFC applies. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
When I'm replying to a list message and the sender has a a reply to set I remove the senders address. [ most of the time ]
You don't want the original note-writer to see or respond to your reply? That's what /can/ happen (and sometimes /does/ if you delete me off a "Reply-To" list).
Most people here do not want both replies, direct and on list. Some will get angry if they do.
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
Is it? I have to remember I asked a question then search for the subject of the email to see if there were any replies. I find it annoying not to be on the To/Cc line so I could filter those emails a being for threads I'm participating in. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers. — Bernard Haisch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 03:25 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list. Is it?
I have to remember I asked a question then search for the subject of the email to see if there were any replies.
I find it annoying not to be on the To/Cc line so I could filter those emails a being for threads I'm participating in.
Ah. I perceive, Watson, that you amalgamate all your main into one 'folder'. you will not from the above that I have my own personal domain, and a specific email address in that domain for this list. I make use of a service from Dreamhost. It costs me less than $100/year, a LOT less than I pay my local cable provider (which is the cheapest I could find that gave me good bandwidth, an unlimited cap and reliable service; the one I had before kept jacking the price up, had an unreasonable cap and a punitive overcharge, and kept dunning me for additional service that I was not interested in; they had no 'unsubscribe'). Dreamhost gives me a free domain registration, effectively unlimited storage for database, application code for web applications; unlimited sub-domains into which I can run an unlimited number of web applications such as blogs, galleries and more; effectively unlimited email addresses (and in the sub-domains if I want); and pretty good support. As a result I can devote one email address to each list I'm on, create an account for same with Thunderbird. I can set up per-list filtering & policy. I choose to use IMAP so that I don't have to download, I can simply review the headers. Thunderbird support lets me do threading, again on the per-list basis; its filters lets me tag by various criteria. If you don't care for the great deal that Dreamhost offers, there are domain registries that will let you have a personal domain for under $5/year. Here in Canada, "Rebel.ca" has been offering them for C$3/year. Setting up your machine to listen for your domain's email via Postfix is straight forward and well documented. I used to do it but it took up too much of my bandwidth and Dreamhost turned out to be a great deal. They do a good job - my only complaint is an abstract one, they run Ubuntu. Yes, setting this up requires effort - but not much, and it simplifies a LOT of thing. having Dreamhost do all the heavy lifting has made me convinced that having a 7/24 team of good 3rd party sysadmins is the right way to go, better than trying to run my own home or SMB system, pay for all that bandwidth, etc etc. I can turn my machines off knowing that my mail will still be accepted, my blogs (etc) still function. Its not my electricity bill. If your inclination runs to virtual machines, yes they have them, but a shared service can go a long, long way. My point here is that having your own domain and a per list email, or at least some dedicate, compartmentalized accounts, is (a) not difficult to set up, (b) gives an amazing amount to leverage, and (c) isn't expensive. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
On 23/06/17 03:25 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list. Is it?
I have to remember I asked a question then search for the subject of the email to see if there were any replies.
I find it annoying not to be on the To/Cc line so I could filter those emails a being for threads I'm participating in.
Ah. I perceive, Watson, that you amalgamate all your main into one 'folder'.
No, but I do have all the opensuse mailinglists I subscribe to going to one folder. I don't routinely count them, but it seems like well over 100 emails a day from all of those. If I ignore that pile for a couple days, it is simply too big to get through in any detail and thus I'm sure I miss relevant emails on threads for which I'm participating. The "reply-all" button is a tried and true solution that allows filtering based on thread participation. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 05:05 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
Ah. I perceive, Watson, that you amalgamate all your main into one 'folder'.
No, but I do have all the opensuse mailinglists I subscribe to going to one folder.
Are you using the Gmail web interface? I'm presuming that "into one folder" is done vi a filter. I do have a gmail account but I read it via Thunderbird/IMAP, so, once again, I only see the headers and I can apply all the power of Thunderbird to do sophisticated filters and tagging. My experience with web based interfaces is that they are unmitigated crap. My experience with 'phone based mail interfaces is that the small screen makes mail processing awkward and the UI is pretty crippled. Whether that 'crippled' is because the designers lack imagination, are to hung up on the graphics, or system they are working within is too limiting, I neither know not care. It sucks.
I don't routinely count them, but it seems like well over 100 emails a day from all of those.
Just so.
If I ignore that pile for a couple days, it is simply too big to get through in any detail and thus I'm sure I miss relevant emails on threads for which I'm participating.
With GMail and other crippled UIs, I can well imagine that is the case. I can manage up to 5 days away from reading this and 5 other other opensuse lists that come to this account with no problems the way I have Thunderbird set up. Five days? Well that's the longest I've been away for a while. Its possible the setup can handle more.
The "reply-all" button is a tried and true solution that allows filtering based on thread participation.
I think your real problem is your UI. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 02:31 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
I do have a gmail account but I read it via Thunderbird/IMAP, so, once again, I only see the headers and I can apply all the power of Thunderbird to do sophisticated filters and tagging.
I too read with Tbird. But its much eaiser to set up the filters and sorting using Gmail's crap interface, and not have to dick around with that in tbird on each machine you use. Just built the filters, folders, etc in Gmail's web interface, and access the folder structure via Tbird imap. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 05:52 PM, John Andersen wrote:
On 06/23/2017 02:31 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
I do have a gmail account but I read it via Thunderbird/IMAP, so, once again, I only see the headers and I can apply all the power of Thunderbird to do sophisticated filters and tagging.
I too read with Tbird. But its much eaiser to set up the filters and sorting using Gmail's crap interface, and not have to dick around with that in tbird on each machine you use. Just built the filters, folders, etc in Gmail's web interface, and access the folder structure via Tbird imap.
It has a flavour of "six of one//half a dozen of the other". My 'machines' are a PC and a pile of mobile devices. The crap mail readers on the mobile devices are my problem. Clouding them doesn't help. When I had more than one desktop I made use of many key items on a NFS server. I recall Microsoft has a jazzy term for this "log in anywhere and get your workspace available via a Share", thing that sun was doing with mounting /home/<user> at login. We can do that today easily with PAM http://pam-mount.sourceforge.net/ And more to the point, that /home/$USER can be encrypted. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 03:36 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
My 'machines' are a PC and a pile of mobile devices. The crap mail readers on the mobile devices are my problem. Clouding them doesn't help.
Ah, but it does. ("Cloud" can be yours or theirs, that's not the point. Don't get sidetracked.) Centralized filtering, sorting, spam-catching, plonking and tagging for all MUAs - good ones or crap ones, is one of the big advantages of centralized imap. Who wants to put all those rules into a finicky phone? And google's capabilities are very good for that even if you NEVER read your mail at the web browser. If you are using your own mail server and something like sieve and imap its the same outcome. With Gmail, you have a powerful sorting, tagging, and filtering engine with near perfect spam detection free of charge for all the email that is non-sensitive. All my mailing list traffic goes to one or more gmail accounts. (I believe I have 7 now. I should really cut back). My local in-office mail server does all my business stuff. Google and Tbird do the rest. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 00:51, John Andersen wrote:
On 06/23/2017 03:36 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
My 'machines' are a PC and a pile of mobile devices. The crap mail readers on the mobile devices are my problem. Clouding them doesn't help.
Ah, but it does. ("Cloud" can be yours or theirs, that's not the point. Don't get sidetracked.)
Centralized filtering, sorting, spam-catching, plonking and tagging for all MUAs - good ones or crap ones, is one of the big advantages of centralized imap. Who wants to put all those rules into a finicky phone?
And google's capabilities are very good for that even if you NEVER read your mail at the web browser.
When I looked at it, gmail sorted mail using labels, but not into different folders. Has this changed, or is there some trick? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 2017-06-24 00:51, John Andersen wrote:
On 06/23/2017 03:36 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
My 'machines' are a PC and a pile of mobile devices. The crap mail readers on the mobile devices are my problem. Clouding them doesn't help.
Ah, but it does. ("Cloud" can be yours or theirs, that's not the point. Don't get sidetracked.)
Centralized filtering, sorting, spam-catching, plonking and tagging for all MUAs - good ones or crap ones, is one of the big advantages of centralized imap. Who wants to put all those rules into a finicky phone?
And google's capabilities are very good for that even if you NEVER read your mail at the web browser.
When I looked at it, gmail sorted mail using labels, but not into different folders. Has this changed, or is there some trick?
It still does that, but for instance when I receive a list email I have the filter rule remove the inbox label and add a opensuse label. Then with a IMAP based client I can pull down the opensuse label as a folder. In fact that always happens. From IMAPs perspective labels are folders. The only time it gets confusing is gmail allows a single email to have multiple labels. It is easy to end up with duplicate emails in your IMAP client. I don't know how to resolve that as it has been a few years since I worked with Thunderbird/Gmail. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 01:21, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
And google's capabilities are very good for that even if you NEVER read your mail at the web browser.
When I looked at it, gmail sorted mail using labels, but not into different folders. Has this changed, or is there some trick?
It still does that, but for instance when I receive a list email I have the filter rule remove the inbox label and add a opensuse label.
Then with a IMAP based client I can pull down the opensuse label as a folder. In fact that always happens. From IMAPs perspective labels are folders.
Ah! I see. I do not remove the Inbox label, so when I look via imap at the inbox I see them all - which happens to suit me, but now I understand why it happens :-)
The only time it gets confusing is gmail allows a single email to have multiple labels. It is easy to end up with duplicate emails in your IMAP client.
Indeed!
I don't know how to resolve that as it has been a few years since I worked with Thunderbird/Gmail.
For Thunderbird it is probably best to retrieve all and sort locally. In fact, trying to open my "opensuse" label takes ages. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:40 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I don't know how to resolve that as it has been a few years since I worked with Thunderbird/Gmail.
For Thunderbird it is probably best to retrieve all and sort locally. In fact, trying to open my "opensuse" label takes ages.
I suspect I use too many different computers during the course of the day for that to work smoothly. I can think of 6 I might access email from on any given day. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers. — Bernard Haisch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 01:52, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:40 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I don't know how to resolve that as it has been a few years since I worked with Thunderbird/Gmail.
For Thunderbird it is probably best to retrieve all and sort locally. In fact, trying to open my "opensuse" label takes ages.
So many ages at 115% CPU that I had to close Thunderbird, then kill the remaining windoless process.
I suspect I use too many different computers during the course of the day for that to work smoothly.
I can think of 6 I might access email from on any given day.
Then you need sorting at the imap server. With a normal imap server Thunderbird can still do it: move automatically email from one folder to another. But not if you need each of those six clients to do the correct sorting - unless there is a way for Thunderbird to store the set of filters remotely and retrieve it. There might. Another way is to fetch from email into another imap server that you can control, and point Thunderbird to it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 23/06/17 08:02 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Another way is to fetch from email into another imap server that you can control, and point Thunderbird to it.
Many people fetch from whatever accounts to a local host using 'fetchmail', pass though a very customized and well tuned 'spamassassin, then either use procmail to filter and tag and store in the ~/MyMail/ tree where a 'dovecot' server can make then available as IMAP MUA, or just go to 'dovecot' directly and use its 'sieve' tools. Considering how cheap storage is and that this can be done with something akin to a Rasberry Pi (or in my case, a old XP grade machine that has been discarded), this is really a no-brainer and gives an incredible amount of flexibility in mail handling. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 06:40 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Many people fetch from whatever accounts to a local host using 'fetchmail', pass though a very customized and well tuned 'spamassassin,
In relative terms, no. An infinitesimally small percentage do this. A very small REAL number of people do this. You probably find 98% of them hanging out in linux mailing lists, where they still make up .05% of the list members. You and I do it and perhaps some more of us here. But for how long? I basically have no real need to do this anymore other than one big client sends me some things that have confidential data for their clients. But even that requires encryption, so given that it doesn't matter if the mail sits on a google server or comes direct to me. So I may just hire Google to handle all the mail one day, and retire my Postfix/Cyrus/spamassassin operation one of these days. Google is FAR more flexible than I could ever muster. Far far more. And I can't exactly say my mastery of spamassassin has been successful. Yes I kill off a lot, but everyday there are 200 to 400 questionable spams that need inspection. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday, 24 June 2017 11:10:47 ACST Anton Aylward wrote:
On 23/06/17 08:02 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Another way is to fetch from email into another imap server that you can control, and point Thunderbird to it.
Many people fetch from whatever accounts to a local host using 'fetchmail', pass though a very customized and well tuned 'spamassassin, then either use procmail to filter and tag and store in the ~/MyMail/ tree where a 'dovecot' server can make then available as IMAP MUA, or just go to 'dovecot' directly and use its 'sieve' tools.
Considering how cheap storage is and that this can be done with something akin to a Rasberry Pi (or in my case, a old XP grade machine that has been discarded), this is really a no-brainer and gives an incredible amount of flexibility in mail handling.
This is exactly what I’ve been doing for the last 5 years. Raspberry Pi, running fetchmail, procmail, dovecot, sendmail. Spamassassin and ClamAV. Fetchmail grabs the mail from multiple different mail accounts, procmail passes them through spamc/spamd and ClamAV, then sorts them into folders. Dovecot means i can read them from anywhere, on any machine, using any Imap- compatible mail client (even Outlook if I need to). The mail server runs 24/7 and uses <5W power continuously. The only time it gets shut down or rebooted is for maintenance and power outages (planned or otherwise). Other local users (my wife currently, and probably my kids soon) are also provided for on the same mail server. :) -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 24/06/17 10:28 PM, Rodney Baker wrote:
This is exactly what I’ve been doing for the last 5 years. Raspberry Pi, running fetchmail, procmail, dovecot, sendmail. Spamassassin and ClamAV.
What are you using for bulk storage? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, 25 June 2017 22:00:28 ACST Anton Aylward wrote:
On 24/06/17 10:28 PM, Rodney Baker wrote:
This is exactly what I’ve been doing for the last 5 years. Raspberry Pi, running fetchmail, procmail, dovecot, sendmail. Spamassassin and ClamAV.
What are you using for bulk storage?
Nothing special - Maildir on /home/<user>. Yes, it’s sitting on the SD card (16GB). Only a few hundred messages a day and its the same SD card that has been in the machine since it was first installed (and it’s an original Raspberry Pi model A, about 5 years old). Yes, I probably should replace the SD card sometime soon, or even move it to a Rpi III model B, but performance isn’t an issue (provided compiled rules are used for Spamassassin) so there’s no real incentive to upgrade it.
> Q: Are you sure? > >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >> >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
-- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-24 01:52, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:40 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I don't know how to resolve that as it has been a few years since I worked with Thunderbird/Gmail.
For Thunderbird it is probably best to retrieve all and sort locally. In fact, trying to open my "opensuse" label takes ages.
So many ages at 115% CPU that I had to close Thunderbird, then kill the remaining windoless process.
I suspect I use too many different computers during the course of the day for that to work smoothly.
I can think of 6 I might access email from on any given day.
Then you need sorting at the imap server.
With a normal imap server Thunderbird can still do it: move automatically email from one folder to another. But not if you need each of those six clients to do the correct sorting - unless there is a way for Thunderbird to store the set of filters remotely and retrieve it. There might.
It's called sieve. Dunno if TB has a suitable client. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Per Jessen <per@computer.org> [06-24-17 07:43]:
Carlos E. R. wrote: [...]
Then you need sorting at the imap server.
With a normal imap server Thunderbird can still do it: move automatically email from one folder to another. But not if you need each of those six clients to do the correct sorting - unless there is a way for Thunderbird to store the set of filters remotely and retrieve it. There might.
It's called sieve. Dunno if TB has a suitable client.
and there is procmail -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Per Jessen <per@computer.org> [06-24-17 07:43]:
Carlos E. R. wrote: [...]
Then you need sorting at the imap server.
With a normal imap server Thunderbird can still do it: move automatically email from one folder to another. But not if you need each of those six clients to do the correct sorting - unless there is a way for Thunderbird to store the set of filters remotely and retrieve it. There might.
It's called sieve. Dunno if TB has a suitable client.
and there is procmail
Yep, that too, although that requires some user-level access to the IMAP server. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.3°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 13:42, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
With a normal imap server Thunderbird can still do it: move automatically email from one folder to another. But not if you need each of those six clients to do the correct sorting - unless there is a way for Thunderbird to store the set of filters remotely and retrieve it. There might.
It's called sieve. Dunno if TB has a suitable client.
Not what I mean :-) I mean a method for Thunderbird to store some of its configuration files remotely, so that it behaves the same way running Th on different computers. Pine can do it on a faked imap folder, I read somewhere. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-24 13:42, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
With a normal imap server Thunderbird can still do it: move automatically email from one folder to another. But not if you need each of those six clients to do the correct sorting - unless there is a way for Thunderbird to store the set of filters remotely and retrieve it. There might.
It's called sieve. Dunno if TB has a suitable client.
Not what I mean :-)
I mean a method for Thunderbird to store some of its configuration files remotely, so that it behaves the same way running Th on different computers.
A TB specific method?? Nah, sieve is the answer.
Pine can do it on a faked imap folder, I read somewhere.
Maybe oak and fir too. :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> [06-23-17 19:55]:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:40 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I don't know how to resolve that as it has been a few years since I worked with Thunderbird/Gmail.
For Thunderbird it is probably best to retrieve all and sort locally. In fact, trying to open my "opensuse" label takes ages.
I suspect I use too many different computers during the course of the day for that to work smoothly.
I can think of 6 I might access email from on any given day.
I use gmail amount other, but dl all to my server and run my mail client in a tmux session on the server. I can access that from anywhere, even booting from a usb stick, and everything is always the "way I want it". even from remote computers I can ssh in for access using a usb stick with putty on it, and access the same running tmux session which appears as I previously left it. and duplicate session are not a problem. my tmux session also contains ssh access to other machines I admin, local and remote, but always within the same tmux session. tmux is similar to but better than screen, imo. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 04:52 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:40 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I don't know how to resolve that as it has been a few years since I worked with Thunderbird/Gmail.
For Thunderbird it is probably best to retrieve all and sort locally. In fact, trying to open my "opensuse" label takes ages.
I suspect I use too many different computers during the course of the day for that to work smoothly.
I can think of 6 I might access email from on any given day.
Greg --
Not to mention a few cellular devices, which could neither sort nor hold all of that mail. The labels vs folders thing is just a conceptual issue. I suspect its just a huge database play, and the sorting and tagging is just a byte flag set in some BigTable database with a pointer to where the mail actually sits. Doesn't matter though, because any Imap client sees it as folders, and you can do all your operations on it as if it were folders. They (google) handle all the labels, your software is none the wiser. And the imap idled is supported such that you can get notifications the instant any folder gets mail. (Can you imagine the sheer number of sockets they must hold open to support idled for millions and millions of gmail users all working via cell phones!!!) The sorting therefore is not needed at the client. Anyone downloading it all and sorting, tagging, etc locally is just doing it wrong. Its not 1985 any more guys. Stop that. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:40 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
I don't know how to resolve that as it has been a few years since I worked with Thunderbird/Gmail.
For Thunderbird it is probably best to retrieve all and sort locally. In fact, trying to open my "opensuse" label takes ages.
I suspect I use too many different computers during the course of the day for that to work smoothly.
I can think of 6 I might access email from on any given day.
Same here, counting my smartphone and a tablet. Works very well, but I do most of filtering and sorting on the server with sieve. My mail TB client also does some. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.9°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:31 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
I do have a gmail account but I read it via Thunderbird/IMAP, so, once again, I only see the headers and I can apply all the power of Thunderbird to do sophisticated filters and tagging.
My experience with web based interfaces is that they are unmitigated crap.
Gmail has come an awful long way on it webui over the last 10 years. It's very quick now. But I haven't tried Thunderbird in a few years. I'll give it another shot. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers. — Bernard Haisch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 06:13 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
But I haven't tried Thunderbird in a few years. I'll give it another shot.
Carlos pointed out such things as filtering by thread, watching threads or sub-threads, flagging unread and more. There's a lot of capability if you take the time to investigate. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 02:05 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:
On 23/06/17 03:25 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list. Is it?
I have to remember I asked a question then search for the subject of the email to see if there were any replies.
I find it annoying not to be on the To/Cc line so I could filter those emails a being for threads I'm participating in.
Ah. I perceive, Watson, that you amalgamate all your main into one 'folder'.
No, but I do have all the opensuse mailinglists I subscribe to going to one folder.
Why? By your own admission this isn't working for you. What ever package you are using can certainly filter better than that. /me peeks at Greg's email address... Gmail !!! FCS!!! Gmail can build you just about any folder structure you want and manage it reliably. It can flag mail as important if your name appears in the body. It can enforce Plonk lists too. Then just use any Imap client to access it and you get good filtering, spam catching. and organized mails, all properly flagged.
I don't routinely count them, but it seems like well over 100 emails a day from all of those. If I ignore that pile for a couple days, it is simply too big to get through in any detail and thus I'm sure I miss relevant emails on threads for which I'm participating.
The "reply-all" button is a tried and true solution that allows filtering based on thread participation.
And the Reply List button is convenient as well. (Other than its not all that common - but Tbird has it, and I try to use it. When replying on my phone I don't always have this and I just use reply all when in a hurry and accept the fact that Anton will complain. He barks, but he's not that dangerous. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:47 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
Gmail can build you just about any folder structure you want and manage it reliably. It can flag mail as important if your name appears in the body. It can enforce Plonk lists too.
Then just use any Imap client to access it and you get good filtering, spam catching. and organized mails, all properly flagged.
I have about 50 folders now. 4 or 5 more just for the openSUSE lists seemed excessive, but maybe I should do that. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers. — Bernard Haisch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 03:21 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
I have about 50 folders now. 4 or 5 more just for the openSUSE lists seemed excessive, but maybe I should do that.
Somebody else is paying the storage bill (and reading your mail) so you got nothing to lose but your sanity. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 5:47 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:
Gmail can build you just about any folder structure you want and manage it reliably. It can flag mail as important if your name appears in the body. It can enforce Plonk lists too.
Then just use any Imap client to access it and you get good filtering, spam catching. and organized mails, all properly flagged.
John, What do you do in Thunderbird to better leverage the "Important" label that gmail has. In the WebUI when I'm in the Inbox, I get all the emails labelled "important" and "Inbox" at the top of the Inbox. (That's the only place it works.) In Thunderbird, when I go to the Important label I get everything with that label. Thus I'm seeing emails from this thread in that folder. I've gotten very used to the way the gmail interface organizes that. Can I recreate that function in Thunderbird? Thanks Greg -- Greg Freemyer Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers. — Bernard Haisch -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2017 05:54 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
Then just use any Imap client to access it and you get good filtering, spam catching. and organized mails, all properly flagged. John,
What do you do in Thunderbird to better leverage the "Important" label that gmail has.
I shut off google's automatic Important setting. (in Gmail Control Panel). I substitute my own filters in gmail "filters and blocked messages" tab, to either star it (which allows it to remain in the "folder/label" but still be highlighed, or mark it as important which also puts it in that same important category. I never let gmail decide important. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-23 21:25, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
When I'm replying to a list message and the sender has a a reply to set I remove the senders address. [ most of the time ]
You don't want the original note-writer to see or respond to your reply? That's what /can/ happen (and sometimes /does/ if you delete me off a "Reply-To" list).
Most people here do not want both replies, direct and on list. Some will get angry if they do.
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
Is it?
I have to remember I asked a question then search for the subject of the email to see if there were any replies.
I find it annoying not to be on the To/Cc line so I could filter those emails a being for threads I'm participating in.
Yes, simple: On Thunderbird, I sort by thread, and I have a filter that automatically marks with "watch" those threads in which I participate. I only have to browse the collapsed threads, and see which are unread. There is also a filter in "View" to "view threads with unread posts" or similar wording. So even weeks later I can notice them :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Most people here do not want both replies, direct and on list. Some will get angry if they do.
It is very simple to notice when you have been replied to in the mail list.
It's simple to notice that you are the one I am replying to. If this was a group discussion, in person, and one person spoke up and said something, and you replied, would you: 1) ignore that person, but answer to what they said facing the rest of the group 2) acknowledge, or face that person when you are replying to what they said and look at others when you added to your response. If you say "1", I'd say you are incredibly rude to ignore who you are responding to. it's natural in human communication to look at/acknowledge who you are responding to. If you add to your response (as many do), you also look around at others in the group. Why would someone think a written communication is so different? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 23/06/17 08:24 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
I have Thunderbird set to automatically include my address as a reply to. Several other people do also. I usually get two replies to many messages. One to the list and one to me directly.
And here we have an example of diversity. That dual copy mode is something that irritates me and is the reason I use the reply-to directed to the list, so that even if someone tries to do a 'double' there's a better chance both will go the list and I hope the list software filters one out. Billie wants double Anton doesn't want double. The software will support both options. Life is wonderful. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-23 20:00, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 23/06/17 08:24 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
I have Thunderbird set to automatically include my address as a reply to. Several other people do also. I usually get two replies to many messages. One to the list and one to me directly.
And here we have an example of diversity. That dual copy mode is something that irritates me and is the reason I use the reply-to directed to the list, so that even if someone tries to do a 'double' there's a better chance both will go the list and I hope the list software filters one out.
Billie wants double Anton doesn't want double.
The software will support both options. Life is wonderful.
But my memory does not support both options. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 23/06/17 22:24, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 06/23/2017 05:14 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
In Thunderbird one has to_deliberately_ use the Reply To Address field which, by default, is 'blank'.
I have Thunderbird set to automatically include my address as a reply to. Several other people do also. I usually get two replies to many messages. One to the list and one to me directly.
When I'm replying to a list message and the sender has a a reply to set I remove the senders address. [ most of the time ]
I break the 'promise' I made in an earlier post and do it because it is you, Billie :-). The key word in what you said is "replying to a list message" -- not a private message. What a number of people also do -- and this annoys me greatly -- is to reply to a post from me to this list, or other lists, by sending their response to the list as well as to my private address; therefore I receive _two_ copies of the same message. I have most politely asked one person to desist from this practice but, alas and alack, he still persists with the practice... :-(. BC -- Government has become a committee for managing the affairs of the rich. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 02:46, Basil Chupin wrote:
On 23/06/17 22:24, Billie Walsh wrote:
What a number of people also do -- and this annoys me greatly -- is to reply to a post from me to this list, or other lists, by sending their response to the list as well as to my private address; therefore I receive _two_ copies of the same message. I have most politely asked one person to desist from this practice but, alas and alack, he still persists with the practice... :-(.
And some, like Greg or Linda, want that duplicate :-) I can not remember who wants what, so I ignore that and send only to the list for everybody, sorry. About getting duplicates... doesn't bother me in the least. I have a procmail rule that moves them to another folder that I seldom (like once a year) look at. Anyway, sending a duplicate breaks gmail handling, because they have an automatic and non optional rule that deletes the duplicate post, which willl always be be list post, being slower than the direct post. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
And some, like Greg or Linda, want that duplicate :-) I can not remember who wants what, so I ignore that and send only to the list for everybody, sorry.
--- It's simple. If you want the person to see it, reply-ALL if you are only replying to the list and not the person, then reply-list. I can't speak for Greg, but **honestly**, do you really think that that the list is me or that I am the list? I rarely have people confuse me with the list, but if you do, my sympathies. I.e. you don't need to remember who wants what -- just remember who you are replying to and whether or not you want your response to also goto the list. If so, reply, all. If you don't want it to goto the list, just hist "Reply". If you aren't replying to the person, but just want to say something to the list, then "Reply-List". You've said before you have those 3 options, so what could be more difficult than knowing who are replying to (if it is a reply), if you are just adding to the discussion and replying to noone in particular, then "Reply-List", but if you are replying to what someone said, AND wanting your reply to goto the list, then "Reply-All". Sometime, in a group meeting, try responding only to the group when someone says something to you -- do it on a consistent basis and see if you don't get odd reactions or some wondering why you are being rude. The only time you might not respond to someone, personally, is if you are a scheduled speaker at the front of a room of people where you aren't talking to people individually, but only there to give a speech to the group -- and even there, when people take questions from the audience, speakers will still often start by addressing the person who asked the question.
Anyway, sending a duplicate breaks gmail handling, because they have an automatic and non optional rule that deletes the duplicate post, which willl always be be list post, being slower than the direct post.
You can't turn that off? That seems like an option that would break threading as well as corrupting your incoming mail stream. Ug. I can't believe google wouldn't make that a choice. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 24/06/17 03:55 PM, L A Walsh wrote:
It's simple. If you want the person to see it, reply-ALL if you are only replying to the list and not the person, then reply-list.
No, Linda, that would be meaningless for me, even if I wasn't using the 'reply-to' set to direct to the list. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-24 21:55, L A Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
And some, like Greg or Linda, want that duplicate :-) I can not remember who wants what, so I ignore that and send only to the list for everybody, sorry.
--- It's simple. If you want the person to see it, reply-ALL if you are only replying to the list and not the person, then reply-list.
But the rule on this list is to reply only to the list, never to both: Official FAQ, 2013: +++...... Q1. Why do my replies go to the original poster and not the list? A1. We do not "munge" the mail headers by inserting a "Reply-To: opensuse@opensuse.org" because it makes it more difficult subscribers to handle the mail the way they want to. Your mail client probably has a "reply" function as well as a "reply to all" or "reply to list" one; Please use the latter if you want you message to go to the list and not just to the original poster. Also, please don't complain about this on the list, it has been discussed many, many, many times in the past already. For background information see e.g. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html ......++- I checked the 2002 version and it is the same thing. Some people in this list get very angry if they receive two posts, one on the list and one copy direct.
I can't speak for Greg, but **honestly**, do you really think that that the list is me or that I am the list? I rarely have people confuse me with the list, but if you do, my sympathies.
I.e. you don't need to remember who wants what -- just remember who you are replying to and whether or not you want your response to also goto the list. If so, reply, all. If you don't want it to goto the list, just hist "Reply".
No, you are different. You want also a copy sent to you direct. An exception to the rule.
Anyway, sending a duplicate breaks gmail handling, because they have an automatic and non optional rule that deletes the duplicate post, which willl always be be list post, being slower than the direct post.
You can't turn that off? That seems like an option that would break threading as well as corrupting your incoming mail stream. Ug. I can't believe google wouldn't make that a choice.
I said "not optional", so no, you can not turn it off. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 06/24/2017 02:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But the rule on this list is to reply only to the list, never to both: Official FAQ, 2013:
+++...... Q1. Why do my replies go to the original poster and not the list? A1. We do not "munge" the mail headers by inserting a "Reply-To: opensuse@opensuse.org" because it makes it more difficult subscribers to handle the mail the way they want to. Your mail client probably has a "reply" function as well as a "reply to all" or "reply to list" one; Please use the latter if you want you message to go to the list and not just to the original poster.
Also, please don't complain about this on the list, it has been discussed many, many, many times in the past already.
For background information see e.g. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Its good you quoted the rule book to her Carlos, but because you followed the rules and didn't send it direct, she won't see it for two weeks, so we have two more weeks of this thread before she replies. Linda: I've groused about the list routing in the past too. Everybody on this list wants replys to the list. Everybody jumps your bones if you reply direct. So why do the list managers persist with this crazy routing? Who knows, but heels are totally dug in at this point and the managers are just toying with us. Every once in a while you have to bend to house rules unless you want to be as welcome as a cactus in an outhouse. Doesn't have to make sense. Its just something you do to humor your friends. Yup, I know you won't see this for a week, maybe two, because its buried in your list mail. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done.
* John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> [06-24-17 18:43]: [...]
Yup, I know you won't see this for a week, maybe two, because its buried in your list mail.
and *knowing* this and that she does want direct/personal replies, you just might have cc'd her. but that may have not fit the mood presented. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On June 24, 2017 3:50:40 PM PDT, Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:
* John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> [06-24-17 18:43]: [...]
Yup, I know you won't see this for a week, maybe two, because its buried in your list mail.
and *knowing* this and that she does want direct/personal replies, you just might have cc'd her. but that may have not fit the mood presented.
I have a hunch she's just toying with us, so I'm just teasing her. She didn't "sound" angry to me. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-25 00:42, John Andersen wrote:
On 06/24/2017 02:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But the rule on this list is to reply only to the list, never to both: Official FAQ, 2013:
+++...... Q1. Why do my replies go to the original poster and not the list? A1. We do not "munge" the mail headers by inserting a "Reply-To: opensuse@opensuse.org" because it makes it more difficult subscribers to handle the mail the way they want to. Your mail client probably has a "reply" function as well as a "reply to all" or "reply to list" one; Please use the latter if you want you message to go to the list and not just to the original poster.
Also, please don't complain about this on the list, it has been discussed many, many, many times in the past already.
For background information see e.g. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
Its good you quoted the rule book to her Carlos, but because you followed the rules and didn't send it direct, she won't see it for two weeks, so we have two more weeks of this thread before she replies.
ROTFL! X'-) So did you :-P
Linda: I've groused about the list routing in the past too. Everybody on this list wants replys to the list. Everybody jumps your bones if you reply direct. So why do the list managers persist with this crazy routing? Who knows, but heels are totally dug in at this point and the managers are just toying with us.
The reason is also in that FAQ item I posted ;-) However, the list manager is reading this thread. And replying, too. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 23/06/17 05:45 AM, L A Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-18 21:32, Anton Aylward wrote:
Yes, but there are a lot more people who (a) make a mistake and hit 'reply-to' rather than 'reply-to-list', and (b) it seems there's software that doesn't have a working 'reply-to-list' function.
But with your/Linda change, a private reply goes to the list, which is worse.
---- Not really -- if you are sending doo doo to a person, why not do it in public? I'm a firm believer that such is a form of instant karma. ;-)
Well, yes, there is that. IIR Napoleon commended purging oneself of such .... but he also recommended not using the "Send" button. As, I'm sure' many people will tell you, technological advancement has taken civil discourse downhill since then. One only needs to read Twitter or Facebook for evidence. Look what happened to USENET.
The problem comes when the *list* software "munges" the "Reply-To" field for everyone. That's where a danger can come in, since the "Reply-To" field gets messed-with for *everyone* -- even if the sender preferred your response to goto the list.
Are we having this discussion again? I suppose we must, periodically, for the elucidation of the newcomers.
What Anton is saying, 'generally(**)', is "please send responses to my list-email, TO the list, I don't want them sent, "personally", to me. That is his right.
** - where I think there could be a problem, is if Anton has the "Reply-To" field set to "opensuse(at)opensuse.org" for every email coming from his "opensuse" account (at) HIS.domain, and then uses that email setting to send an email "off list". In that case, replying to him, personally, in response to a personal email from from 'him' (that wasn't sent to the list), would, *surprisingly*, be directed to the opensuse(at)opensuse.org list.
It actually requires a double-error. The first error is on my part, when I fail to remove the 'default' reply-to for off-list communication. many reasons for that, lack of coffee being the most common. At this point there is not a problem. The problem arises if and only if the second error occurs. The second error is where the respondent presses 'send' without altering the 'To: " field, that may also be for somnambulist reasons. As we all know, most computer errors are the responsibility of humans. Its humans, not turtles, all the way down. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 10:35 AM, Wols Lists wrote:
It would be nice, however, if the options "reply to list", "reply to all", "reply to sender" actually did what they said on the tin.
They do. Some mailers, however, are broken. They simply don't have a 'reply-to-list' button. many, many years go, Thunderbird didn't. Now it does and it works.
It gets very confusing when they work correctly on some lists, they all do "reply to list" on others, and all do "reply to sender" on yet others!
It is the policy of the list whether or not they include the necessary headers in the messages to make "reply-to-list' work, or if the default reply is to the list or if it is to the person who posted the message you are replying to. As Linda suggested, I get around this this by adding an explicit "reply to" field to make sure that the reply goes to the list even if you hit the "reply" rather than the "reply to list" button, or if you mailer is broken and it doesn't have a 'reply to list' button. Let me repeat: IT IS THE INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY OF EACH AND EVERY LIST WHETHER IT USES A 'reply to list' FUNCTION OR NOT. There is no "one ring to rule them all", no police going around enforcing policy. The Good mailing list software follows the RFC, but don't expect Gmail, Googlegroups or YahooGroups to be using strictly conformant software, either for their list managers or for their webmail interfaces. I see from you headers that you are using Thunderbird/38. I can't recall when the 'reply-to-list' was added and debugged, perhaps someone knows. I do know that the current release of Thunderbird is up in the 50s; I'm using 52.2. Perhaps you should update. Check the logs to see what bugs and problems and vulnerabilities have been fixed between 38 and 52. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
linux is still about choice. . It used to be. Practical choices have been dwindling for a long time, replaced by naive "newness" that only works on some hardware or for some users. In
Patrick Shanahan composed on 2017-06-18 10:11 (UTC-0400): . plasma, it remains impossible (limited by QT5) to select a bold font[3], or the iso yyyy-mm-dd date format[4], or, if using the wrong hardware, to avoid segfaulting and crashing[5]. Most recently, Firefox started defaulting to building with the intentionally broken interop GTK3+[1]. Wolfgang's workaround needed by non-Gnome users will only last until mozilla.org removes the capability to build with GTK2.[2] [1] e.g. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1269274 [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1278282 [3] https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-57736 [4] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340982 [5] e.g. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=380008 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/06/17 00:11, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
On 18/06/17 13:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant. And then you get lists (I'm on a few) that are configured such that *none* of the reply options actually work other than "reply to list". So when I do want to reply privately, I have to "forward" and then manually enter the email address :-(
(Or "reply" then manually delete the list and enter the recipient...)
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:03]: point is that you can recognize the difference and still apply your choice which many mail clients make very difficult. goes back to the windows mentality that they know better what you need/can do that what you do.
linux is still about choice.
The REAL point is that you don't have to be forced to check every message you type to ensure that it is going to the right destination. When I click on the Reply icon I expect that the msg will be delivered as a private msg because this is what Reply is designed to do. I also expect that when someone types in the body of a msg that the msg is private and offlist then the reply would also be private even though the sender made an inadvertent mistake and clicked on the wrong icon when sending the message. BC -- Government has become a committee for managing the affairs of the rich. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [06-18-17 21:04]:
On 19/06/17 00:11, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
On 18/06/17 13:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant. And then you get lists (I'm on a few) that are configured such that *none* of the reply options actually work other than "reply to list". So when I do want to reply privately, I have to "forward" and then manually enter the email address :-(
(Or "reply" then manually delete the list and enter the recipient...)
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:03]: point is that you can recognize the difference and still apply your choice which many mail clients make very difficult. goes back to the windows mentality that they know better what you need/can do that what you do.
linux is still about choice.
The REAL point is that you don't have to be forced to check every message you type to ensure that it is going to the right destination. When I click on the Reply icon I expect that the msg will be delivered as a private msg because this is what Reply is designed to do.
don't you even look to see where it is addressed?
I also expect that when someone types in the body of a msg that the msg is private and offlist then the reply would also be private even though the sender made an inadvertent mistake and clicked on the wrong icon when sending the message.
if you cut off you finger, it is still cut off whether you intended to or not. be responsible for your own action. what you propose is what the windoz world wants, for someone else to make their decisions. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-19 03:12, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [06-18-17 21:04]:
On 19/06/17 00:11, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
On 18/06/17 13:05, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is the other side of the argument that the list should be configured to so that replies go to the list not the poster, that people 'naturally' hit "reply to", so the list should be configured that way and 'all other lists are like that" and the openSUSE list is deviant. And then you get lists (I'm on a few) that are configured such that *none* of the reply options actually work other than "reply to list". So when I do want to reply privately, I have to "forward" and then manually enter the email address :-(
(Or "reply" then manually delete the list and enter the recipient...)
* Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> [06-18-17 10:03]: point is that you can recognize the difference and still apply your choice which many mail clients make very difficult. goes back to the windows mentality that they know better what you need/can do that what you do.
linux is still about choice.
The REAL point is that you don't have to be forced to check every message you type to ensure that it is going to the right destination. When I click on the Reply icon I expect that the msg will be delivered as a private msg because this is what Reply is designed to do.
don't you even look to see where it is addressed?
But you can forget. I forgot once and I was banned. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
The REAL point is that you don't have to be forced to check every message you type to ensure that it is going to the right destination. . I expect it to go back from whence it came, unless I see an explicit reply-to set. Translated, that means I expect a message that came to me via *any* mailing
Basil Chupin composed on 2017-06-19 11:01 (UTC+1000): . list to, as a consequence of clicking the reply button, go back to that very mailing list, as it did, in fact, come "from" that mailing list, regardless of the "From" header content, and regardless of who is responsible for its content. List posts that do not do that violate expectations, UI design concept of least surprise, and logic, regardless of any RFC. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 09:36 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
The REAL point is that you don't have to be forced to check every message you type to ensure that it is going to the right destination. . I expect it to go back from whence it came, unless I see an explicit reply-to set. Translated, that means I expect a message that came to me via *any* mailing
Basil Chupin composed on 2017-06-19 11:01 (UTC+1000): . list to, as a consequence of clicking the reply button, go back to that very mailing list, as it did, in fact, come "from" that mailing list, regardless of the "From" header content, and regardless of who is responsible for its content. List posts that do not do that violate expectations, UI design concept of least surprise, and logic, regardless of any RFC.
As I said: If you're on a list, the natural repose is that you reply to the list; why else subscribe to the list? Context is Everything -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 09:01 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
The REAL point is that you don't have to be forced to check every message you type to ensure that it is going to the right destination. When I click on the Reply icon I expect that the msg will be delivered as a private msg because this is what Reply is designed to do.
I've spent a lot of time telling many people that .. Context is Everything and still people don't get it. If you're on a list, the natural repose is that you reply to the list; why else subscribe to the list? But the RFCs make the point that its individuals who make up the list and you might want to reply to the individual, so there are two buttons: 'reply-to' and 'reply-to-list'. Except ... Some list management sites, YahooGroups, GoogleGroups and SourceForge Or at leas the list I'm on) that I subscribe to, though there may be others, send email where the 'reply-to' goes to the list , not the individual. Their list management software does not supply the necessary list identification/response tags in the header for there to be the separate 'reply-to' & 'reply-to-list' buttons enable that we are familiar with on this list. The point I'm making is that not all lists follow the same protocols about replying. Different people interpret that the reply function means. Some reason that if you're on a list then you must be replying to something on the list, and if not, then you'll go to extraordinary lengths to make it clear who you are replying to. heck, you might even be -- shock horror -- forwarding or archiving the message! Yes, you *should* check. There have been many novels written about (physical) letters that get put in the wrong envelopes, mis-addressed. There no shortage of horror stories about business setting where the 'reply all' rather then than the 'reply' buton was accidentally pressed. Software checks are one thing. Most mistakes come from humans. That has always been the case, and it doesn't seem to change. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 21:28, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-18 13:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 17/06/17 10:12 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
PS But I have a question: why did you send the above to me as a private message in the first instance knowing full well that I could not response to you in private because you put the return address as "Reply to opensuse@opensuse.org"? There is no such thing as a single root cause in most event and there wasn't here.
The 'reply to' is a suggestion from Linda Walsh -- search the archives - to try and get around the other, which is accidentally hitting on 'reply to' rather than 'reply to list', which is what happens here, and what happens, judging by responses I see to posts I don't see, happens to others as well. You should disable that.
If you check the headers of Anton's other posts in this list you won't see the 'Reply To' in the headers. Makes one wonder why that particular private post to me had that instruction embedded in the header.
It causes people that hit "reply to" to instead send a public response. Happened to me and I was banned.
BC -- Government has become a committee for managing the affairs of the rich. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 08:41 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
If you check the headers of Anton's other posts in this list you won't see the 'Reply To' in the headers. Makes one wonder why that particular private post to me had that instruction embedded in the header.
Picking one at random; Received: from main.HOME.SystemI.ca (unknown [104.234.132.2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: opensuse@antonaylward.com) by homiemail-a56.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DEDEA600511E for <opensuse@opensuse.org>; Wed, 14 Jun 2017 11:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: opensuse@opensuse.org Actually I've samples about 20 of my posts to the list from my Thunderbird collection, which goes back to the beginning of the year, and they all have that. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-06-18 13:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
The 'reply to' is a suggestion from Linda Walsh -- search the archives - to try and get around the other, which is accidentally hitting on 'reply to' rather than 'reply to list', which is what happens here, and what happens, judging by responses I see to posts I don't see, happens to others as well.
You should disable that.
It causes people that hit "reply to" to instead send a public response. Happened to me and I was banned.
--- Excuse me, but Anton's email says he prefers that that a response to his "public"[sic -- really to opensuse list] post would be sent to the list. That is his choice, isn't it? How does your responding to to what he said, publically, on the list, get you "banned" unless you were sending something offensive? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 21:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 17/06/17 10:12 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
PS But I have a question: why did you send the above to me as a private message in the first instance knowing full well that I could not response to you in private because you put the return address as "Reply to opensuse@opensuse.org"? There is no such thing as a single root cause in most event and there wasn't here.
The 'reply to' is a suggestion from Linda Walsh -- search the archives - to try and get around the other, which is accidentally hitting on 'reply to' rather than 'reply to list', which is what happens here, and what happens, judging by responses I see to posts I don't see, happens to others as well.
You *could* have replied to me in private simply by deleting the 'reply to'.
The "Reply to" is embedded and is part of the HEADER so how can one delete that? In any case it is simple enough to alter the position of the icons on the menu bar in Thunderbird so that Reply To List more accessible when responding to a post. One can also totally remove all icons on the menu bar and only have Reply To List if one wanted so there is no need to follow what Linda said. BC -- Government has become a committee for managing the affairs of the rich. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Basil Chupin:
On 18/06/17 21:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 17/06/17 10:12 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
PS But I have a question: why did you send the above to me as a private message in the first instance knowing full well that I could not response to you in private because you put the return address as "Reply to opensuse@opensuse.org"? There is no such thing as a single root cause in most event and there wasn't here.
The 'reply to' is a suggestion from Linda Walsh -- search the archives - to try and get around the other, which is accidentally hitting on 'reply to' rather than 'reply to list', which is what happens here, and what happens, judging by responses I see to posts I don't see, happens to others as well.
You *could* have replied to me in private simply by deleting the 'reply to'.
The "Reply to" is embedded and is part of the HEADER so how can one delete that?
In any case it is simple enough to alter the position of the icons on the menu bar in Thunderbird so that Reply To List more accessible when responding to a post. One can also totally remove all icons on the menu bar and only have Reply To List if one wanted so there is no need to follow what Linda said.
BC
who is this Linda everyone speaks of? sorry for being new :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 08:37 PM, James Bunnell wrote:
who is this Linda everyone speaks of? sorry for being new :)
You can find many of her posts by consulting the archives. The details of how to access the archives is in the headers of every message to this list. If you are not running a broken mail reader, and in my opinion the webmail readers are all broken, then your reader has a 'show source' function somewhere. RTFM. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/17 08:35 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
On 18/06/17 21:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
You *could* have replied to me in private simply by deleting the 'reply to'.
The "Reply to" is embedded and is part of the HEADER so how can one delete that?
Not *that* 'reply to'! the one in the outgoing message where it that the reply is going to the list rather than to me.
In any case it is simple enough to alter the position of the icons on the menu bar in Thunderbird so that Reply To List more accessible when responding to a post.
Sorry, I don't see how reordering them makes it any easier or difficult. or perhaps you mean just icons with no text. so its some magic. I use icons+text. I learnt to read a young age so seeing the text I can see where it says "reply to list" as distinct from simply "reply". They are both there.
One can also totally remove all icons on the menu bar and only have Reply To List if one wanted so there is no need to follow what Linda said.
Given that I deal with mail other than this list that seems a rather useless change. Sometimes there is no 'list' involved. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (17)
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Anton Aylward -
Basil Chupin -
Billie Walsh -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Howorth -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
James Bunnell -
John Andersen -
Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink -
L A Walsh -
Linda Walsh
-
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Rodney Baker -
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