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Le 26/12/2015 13:06, Richard Brown a écrit :
On 26 December 2015 at 11:30, jdd
wrote: Le 26/12/2015 11:08, Richard Brown a écrit :
But hopefully with this post people can understand how things came to this point so tempers can calm and we can all move on.
after reading this, I wonder is the reason for this was not (partly) because before leap was released we where asked to use factory for leap.
It may not be appropriate to have one list for two very different distros.
I do not see how your suggestion is remotely relevant to the issues I highlighted in my email
I feel that Tumbleweed is more a developer distribution, and leap more a user oriented one. I do not follow factory because I'm not a developer. It's usual on opensuse@ to ask when one find a bug to see if it's not and old bug, very well known or simply a lack of understanding. Opening bugzilla entries that are not really needed is also a nuisance, so we have to make a balance. I think Carlos was more on the user part on the wrong list, but there was no other...
make this even clearer, but really it should go without saying, as it has not changed in the 10 year history of the Project.
it changed since Tumbleweed become official
I also note in your post that "old contributors" are not welcome in favor of new ones.
No, I welcome both "old contributors" and "new contributors", but in the case of Translation the debate was more between "contributors" and "former contributors" (ie. those who had contributed to previous releases, but were not translating Tumbleweed or Leap. In the case of Carlos I would actually describe him as 'actively not contributing', as he was aggressively pushing the argument that Tumbleweed COULD NOT be translated..)
well, looks like Leap was not really translated as well. I was not involved in the openSUSE translation recently, but I'm member of the french general translation project, so I know how much writers are attached to they usual translation system, I even know some that develop they own one. So having a mechanism to share work from various origins is essential IMHO for translation purpose.
Why was not this "translation" problem discussed on the right (aka translation) mailing list long before?
It was discussed long before, but some of those "old contributors" effectively blocked the idea via bikeshedding
I feel you are using "bikeshedding" as a way to describe things that you don't like. You say I don't understand you, it's possible, but may be you don't understand me (and others). I know it's difficult to understand each others. It's a shame that this discussion become too personal and would like to see other board members write also to say they feeling, because the ban was a board decision (if I understand well) and you shouldn't be criticized for a collective decision.
It's an unfortunate fact of open source life that discussion only has a limited impact, where as 'action' defines where the Project goes. In this case, the Weblate contributors decided, based on previous experience, that instead of discussing first, then doing, they would do first then discuss
13.2 was translated. Leap no so well, so yes something went in between and the main thing I see is the system change in translation. I may be wrong. Is there somewhere a list of the active translators?
Because there was lots of talk about how the wiki should be, and not much action - your stepping back was part of that problem.
I was saying the new system was making things harder to participate, did people that wanted the new system really participate? They should. I could do work in a more useful manner elsewhere. My idea was than the only goal is to make people participate and the new system was against that. It looks like the translation problem is similar, it makes participation harder, not simpler.
I do not believe that to be the case, and so I work hard to support the Project and make it easier for people to actually DO stuff.
can you elaborate how this last sentence is made true? What have been made to make it easier for people to actually Do stuff? Where is the stuff?
As a volunteer project, 'people management' is a complicated topic. You cannot 'manage' volunteers.
yes, you can. May be it was done by Jos time ago. It's hard, because one have to convince, make changes, but not too fast... hard job indeed, but unavoidable
If that fails, if the individuals involved refuse to listen and disrupt the activities of the rest of the Project, sadly the only option left is exclusion.
exclusion is the death of a project...
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I also believe that there is a high proportion of my emails which you do not fully understand, as quite often demonstrated by your responses.
understanding is not agreement. Lack of understanding is common, both ways. too long mails as this one should not happen too often. we of course need developers, but we also need many volunteers to write doc, translate, organize install parties... yours sincerely jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org