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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Timothy R. Butler (þriðjudagur 14. maí 2002 22:02)
Hi Travis,
To support those voices against version 8.0, I will say that it is far from perfect. But what is it that you guys want? An A.I. install? You just want to insert the DVD, come back in 30 minutes and log in? Not hardly! Even the beloved Microsoft OSes need user interaction to get them installed, setup, and working (which is kind of a long stretch to say "working").
You seem to be missing the point. It isn't that it needs interaction, it's that it does what it is suppose to do. Generally, speaking, MS OSes install just fine - the end result ain't great, but it *is* click and drool.
That's balony. My Toshiba Satellite 3000-S353 came indeed with a M$ OS. Windows ME to be precise. It came pre-installed, and the reseller hadn't even turned it on, less customized it as some retailers do. I turned the machine on, and *plaff* it crashed. Trustworthy ? Nahh. I reinstalled ME as the laptop has a load of features that I wanted to try, and I wanted to play DVDs on the machine ( DVD players for linux were at best shaky at that point in time ). The OS installed fine. But immediately following first reboot - BAM. Up in safe mode, and in with the drivers, KABAM. Nope, ME just didn't want to enter my laptop. So, I said, "let's go for XP". XP went in, and with minimal features, it was used as a DVD player and a .DOC reader. No further applications were installed, and no operating system settings tweaked. In four months the XP rotted and fell apart like yesteryears bread left on the kitchen table... At the same time as I installed XP, I installed SuSE 7.3 alongside it. 7.3 worked beautifully, and kept working, even if I fiddled with it to get the max out of it. When I got 8.0, it flew in, and everything is supported, except the winmodem ( which probably is supported with the correct driver, I just havn't cared yet :). I really can't for the life of me say that M$ has in any way given me any relief. ( SuSE has ) There is a similar story to tell on my sisters Compaq Presario 1200, which has had ME, XP and W2K. Now, it's being installed with SuSE 8.0, and I presume she will be one much happier woman.
The installation is going to have difficulties because every machine is different. I guarantee one could take RedHat, Mandrake, or any other distro and try to install it and get nothing but headaches. (I've done it)
Funny, I ran into way more headaches with SuSE installs then Mandrake installs. And I've actually installed Mandrake on more different types of hardware many more times.
Through my line of work I come across a wide flora of Linux users. The users with least complaints have generally been Debian and SuSE users. The ones with most wireless problems are Mandrake and MacOS-X users. And the RedHat users generally come with "I installed this, and now foo and bar don't work anymore". Every distribution has its attributes, and instead of whining ( yes, I say whining ) about a specific distributions shortcomings, you REALLY should consider either of the alternative paths: o Fix it and share o Select a distribution that YOU are happy with, and DONT whine
If you really want to talk about the installation, we can do that for a while on another thread, but remember to make sure you've at least read the manual before you tried to install it. Also, if this is a laptop
That shouldn't be necessary. It didn't use to be with SuSE (the last version I've run is 7.1 - 8.0 is in the mail, however), it isn't with Mandrake, nor is it with Windows.
Regardless of wether you have a new operating system to install, or a new gadget for your computer, you ALWAYS should read the manual, if only to become aqquainted with the specifics of the software/gadget being installed. Perhaps the mentality of not reading instructions explains why instructions from US vendors are so excessive ( even on lighters and toilet paper ! ) - if excessive instructions are included, you can't sue them even if you didn't read them.... *blah* ! Instructions are always for the better. There is always bound to be something you don't know in everything that's new.
Next someone says what about corrupt software packages on the CDs or DVDs. Well, you could always download them yourself, install and configure them, package them back up, and burn to a CD/DVD to market your own distro of perfection. It isn't enough that you only paid upwards of $80 (US) for this complete OS with more features than the average person could ever use. I think you'd better back off of SuSE for this one too, especially since they have a 7 CD head start.
This is really silly. The majority of a distros job is not programming new software, but packaging up existing software. So if someone complains that important packages are corrupt, isn't that a very valid complaint?
Oh ? What on earth do you think SuSE have been doing ? Yast is their own product. Sax is too. They have a programmer writing for the XFree86 project. They have programmers working on other projects as well. And they are selling services that require quite a lot more than to read other peoples man pages to a customer over the phone. Get a grip. And the corrupt package... gimp ? It's not corrupt on my disks. Gee wonder if the author of the article got a bad CD ? Shame on the CD company. But to bitch SuSE about it ? Shame on him.
Honestly, however, this is something I've seen and heard about for the last three years in the SuSE community. You can't have a such a virtually non-existant beta program and hope to catch bugs. Mandrake, RedHat, Xandros, Microsoft, Apple, etc., don't all have beta programs because the get a kick out of release prerelease software (okay, maybe MS does...).
Do you realize the difference between an open beta, and a limited ( select users ) beta ? The former generates a lot of noise, and too many false-positives. The latter generates almost no noise, and a high percentage of true-negatives. Which do you think catches more bugs ?
Then someone says, "Why upgrade/switch to SuSE?" I'll tell you why--to support the next version, and it's successor, and so on. Lest you forget, we're not in this to fight RedHat versus SuSE, but rather a
If the logic behind upgrade is because you should support SuSE or Mandrake or [insert company name here], that is a poor excuse for a reason to upgrade. Sure, I want to help Linux companies, but I feel much more charitable when giving money to the Salvation Army, or things like that.
Here your'e repeating what was already said.
If distros want people to upgrade - thinking people, not click-and-drool Microsofties - then you need to provide a real reason to upgrade. Especially any company targetting the much less charitable IT industry.
SuSE has already shown in 8.0 a real reason for the upgrade. 8.0 is a transition version to something even greater :-) Prove me wrong.
scale ability, ability to change, and less expensive. If we don't help the one's with a clear direction for Linux's future in the business world (where the real support money comes from) then we'd better not complain when we have trouble getting things to work.
So when things don't work we should just say "Oh well, who cares"? Why is that? I wouldn't spend a hundred bucks on Microsoft Word, and if several key features were corrupted (really corrupted, not buggy, mind you) just say "Oh well, who cares?" I would demand action of Microsoft, so would you, and so would the media. Linux users are naive if they expect special treatment from other users and the media.
Ehm. Where is the line between "buggy" and "corrupted" ? I know that I don't care where the line is if the application eats my data, and spits out guts and garbage. But there is also a line that differentiates between constructive criticism and destructive and mindless bashing. And to correct you in your ideas of what you can and cannot do, if you WOULD read the label that has been present on any and all CD cases from SuSE since at least 5.2, it reads ( on 8.0 ) "By breaking the seal you accept the exclusion of warranty." Ths, if you do not accept the exclusion of warranty, you can return your package unopened to the nearest retailer, probably for a full refund.
As a member of the Linux media, I try hard to accentuate the positives of every product I review. However, I won't - read that again - I won't ignore a problem so that I can accomplish some great crusade against Microsoft. It isn't fair to my readers, nor myself. I would like nothing better then to see Penguins rule the world, so to speak, but ignoring problems to do so is just a case of the ends do not justify the means.
-Tim
If you account yourself as a member of the Linux media, then for sure I hope for a dismemberment anytime soon. There are only a few of the userspace on a personal crusade against M$. Most of us have only gotten fed up with their products, and have found something else that we like better. Since you like Microsoft better ( which must be the case if you dislike Linux so much, as all of the problems described in this much too long and washed out thread can be reproduced on any Linux distro, given the (in)correct hardware for each particular distro ) then why don't you just continue to use Windows ? Each too has its userbase, and its means to and end. Maybe Gates serves you better ? Who knows... Best, Tor Sigurdsson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE84ZxtoNDy+3RQliMRAjH+AJ9qegd7oSjj2ndVSzQV0cTqaw/u4ACcDgUz urwsIZYfg2d2Vs21HwtNovM= =t+Yi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----