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On 26 December 2015 at 18:49, jdd
Le 26/12/2015 13:06, Richard Brown a écrit :
On 26 December 2015 at 11:30, jdd
wrote: Le 26/12/2015 11:08, Richard Brown a écrit :
But hopefully with this post people can understand how things came to this point so tempers can calm and we can all move on.
after reading this, I wonder is the reason for this was not (partly) because before leap was released we where asked to use factory for leap.
It may not be appropriate to have one list for two very different distros.
I do not see how your suggestion is remotely relevant to the issues I highlighted in my email
I feel that Tumbleweed is more a developer distribution, and leap more a user oriented one. I do not follow factory because I'm not a developer.
It's usual on opensuse@ to ask when one find a bug to see if it's not and old bug, very well known or simply a lack of understanding. Opening bugzilla entries that are not really needed is also a nuisance, so we have to make a balance. I think Carlos was more on the user part on the wrong list, but there was no other...
That's fine, but that was also the point of the complainants against Carlos' posts in -factory. Carlos' posts regarding Tumbleweed were more relevant for this list, not a developer list There is a valid list for user questions regarding both openSUSE Tumbleweed and openSUSE Leap, it is opensuse@opensuse.org
make this even clearer, but really it should go without saying, as it has not changed in the 10 year history of the Project.
it changed since Tumbleweed become official
No it hasn't - opensuse-factory@ is still the development mailinglist of the openSUSE Project, opensuse@ is still the user/support mailinglist of the openSUSE Project
I also note in your post that "old contributors" are not welcome in favor of new ones.
No, I welcome both "old contributors" and "new contributors", but in the case of Translation the debate was more between "contributors" and "former contributors" (ie. those who had contributed to previous releases, but were not translating Tumbleweed or Leap. In the case of Carlos I would actually describe him as 'actively not contributing', as he was aggressively pushing the argument that Tumbleweed COULD NOT be translated..)
well, looks like Leap was not really translated as well. I was not involved in the openSUSE translation recently, but I'm member of the french general translation project, so I know how much writers are attached to they usual translation system, I even know some that develop they own one. So having a mechanism to share work from various origins is essential IMHO for translation purpose.
Yes, exactly, and this is the problem Weblate hopes to resolve. The fact we got as much translated in Leap as we did suggests that the efforts have not been wasted.
Why was not this "translation" problem discussed on the right (aka translation) mailing list long before?
It was discussed long before, but some of those "old contributors" effectively blocked the idea via bikeshedding
I feel you are using "bikeshedding" as a way to describe things that you don't like. You say I don't understand you, it's possible, but may be you don't understand me (and others). I know it's difficult to understand each others. It's a shame that this discussion become too personal and would like to see other board members write also to say they feeling, because the ban was a board decision (if I understand well) and you shouldn't be criticized for a collective decision.
I am using "bikeshedding" as a way to describe unproductive discussions that do not lead to anyone taking any action. If a discussion ends without anyone actually doing something as a result of that discussion, I consider the entire topic 'bikeshedded'. This was certainly, unquestionably, true with the first discussion regarding Weblate, which resulted in nothing changing, even after it became apparent the old system was truely broken. list of the active translators?
I do not believe that to be the case, and so I work hard to support the Project and make it easier for people to actually DO stuff.
can you elaborate how this last sentence is made true? What have been made to make it easier for people to actually Do stuff? Where is the stuff?
Examples I can think of in recent memory (Some of these were directly done by me, others were nothing to do with me but are examples of the Project doing things which follow the trend of opening things up so more people can contribute) Leap Actions Taken: Made it easier for SLE developers to contribute by using SLE code Result? Providing the Base System for Leap Leap Actions Taken: Made it easier for ANY contributor to select which packages are in Leap as documented in https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:How_to_contribute_to_Leap Result? More packages in Leap than in 13.2 - ntire structure of Leap was decided by the community - how much was SLE, how much was openSUSE was a function of this action. Leap Actions Taken: Named and Numbered by the Community Result? openSUSE Leap was a name proposed by a totally new contributor who joined our project after reading about our naming discussions regarding the new distribution. Tumbleweed Actions Taken: Merging Factory and Tumbleweed as one single Rolling Release offering instead of having the Factory and Tumbleweed contributions 'split' Result? More packages. More contributors. Exceptional user base growth - http://i.imgur.com/UnuN1et.png Website Actions Taken: Totally new website built in https://github.com/openSUSE/landing-page Result? More contributors working on the new landing page in 6 months than we had on the old one in a grand total of 10 years. Actual products of the Project better reflected. Increased press coverage Wiki: Actions Taken: Removing the restrictions on the majority of the wiki pages so anyone can contribute Result? Actually..not much of one..this was something lots of people asked for but now we've done it we haven't seen an expected uptick in wiki edits, sadly. Branding: Actions Taken: Publicly posted branding guidelines https://opensuse.github.io/branding-guidelines/ Result? Consistent, community made marketing materials seen as far and wide as Taiwan, Japan, California Result? New openSUSE Leap design which was the first branding package since 11.4 which *I* personally didn't have to touch because we had other contributors doing it Fonts: Actions Taken: Proposed a revamp of the default fonts to reduce the need of workaround technologies like subpixel hinting Result? A whole bunch of new and established contributors implementing a community selected collection of fonts across our distributions Translations Action Taken: Weblate soft-launched, some things translated in it Result? New contributors to the translation teams, things that otherwise wouldn't have been translatable for Leap or Tumbleweed are now translated in both Leap and Tumbleweed.
As a volunteer project, 'people management' is a complicated topic. You cannot 'manage' volunteers.
yes, you can. May be it was done by Jos time ago. It's hard, because one have to convince, make changes, but not too fast... hard job indeed, but unavoidable
I think you misunderstand the work Jos used to do for the Project.
If that fails, if the individuals involved refuse to listen and disrupt the activities of the rest of the Project, sadly the only option left is exclusion.
exclusion is the death of a project...
No, it is not. It's not ideal, but it's something necessary. Some very well respected Google developers talked a great deal on this. As Kostas quoted this when the Board was trying to discuss matters with Carlos I think it's relevant I share it here also - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q52kFL8zVoM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org