Low! Trying to kill the keyboard, tschaefe@mindspring.com produced:
Trying to sound a bit more intelligent than the bellowing of an alligator, Wolfgang paddles through the mud, and utters:
Well, I don't mind how I sound to some people. To most your 'alligator' will have an IQ above 2 digits. Before the decimal point, that is. [snip a lot of good pointers to information. I guess most readers don't need them repeated.]
I waded through some of the ppp docs, and couldn't find many of the files necessary to complete the config. Then I see that the CD was missing something in the installation. So, when I get some time I will agonize through more of the lengthy docs ( somebody tried to kill the keyboard on that one! ) :-)
The PPP HowTo should have more than everything you need, in painstaking detail. It also points to a lot of other sources. That's why it is named HOW TO.
I would not bind user-friendliness with documentation. Docs should be complete, clear, and filled with working examples. Many man-pages in UNIX, not just Linux, are incomplete in their intent of providing a complete communication of what a command or tool should provide.
I think you misunderstood man pages. Man pages often are an overview over a program, the first point to look. Many programs are backed with other documentation, may it be HowTos, a doc-directory (or html- directory) included with the sources (with SuSE you'd find them in /usr/doc/packages/ if you installed the binary), an info-file (try info info) or many, FAQs or even real books you may buy. May buy? Yes, for example sendmail is a free programs, but to really be able to use them you need to understand them, and somehow I fail to see someone reading 500 printed pages as a man page.
If the functionality of a command or tool or whatever cannot be described in the documentation, how is the end-user ever to understand how to use it?
By looking at the *correct* documentation. And don't claim there is none for PPP. Also you again fall into the Windows trap. Many of the free programs (free not as in free beer, but as in freely distributable source) are *not* written with an 'end-user' in mind who has to pay lots, but with oneself or other programmers in mind. That means the software is of high quality, but not neccessarily usable by people who don't read.
It is simply a matter of poorly written documentation that does not meet the standards of good communication. Good communication gets the message across clearly enough that the receiving end acknowledges they got the message. man-pages and many help docs, including HOW-TOs do not meet the test. One of the most effective ways to communicate the use of a tool is to simply give practical, complete real-world examples.
You are heartily invited to add to any and all documentation or even write some (like HowTos) yourself. Most any package maintainer and programmer is glad to have help. Especially with unfunny things like documentation. (Oh, did I say that most of those people do the programming for fun, in their own free time?) As for examples ... see HowTos.
And...
Nobody that I know would equate user friendliness with an inability to tune something. That assertion won't compile either. Non-sequitor. I must re-evaluate...I must return to launch point... Are you the Kirk?
:-)
You obviously never used Windows and though it to be remotely user-friendly. And no, I am not (a|the|any) Kirk. However, you seem to be out of memory up there. You really need to open your windows and activate swapspace. :-)
2. Scanner
Oh, you also might want to check out <A HREF="http://www.tummy.com/"><A HREF="http://www.tummy.com/</A">http://www.tummy.com/</A</A>>.
3. Jazz Drive
Of course you mount it. Man mount will give you all the info you need.
It doesn't, or why would I ask?
It does. However, it assumes basic knowledge. I mean, you *have* to assume some knowledge, like what a keyboard is, that you know the command man, how to type a command once you know it's format and spelling, basic facts about the directory tree (because why else would you need/know about mount?) etc.
( Don't answer, please, here, hold this... )
Some time that evening after shooting at ducks, Wolfgang howls at the moon:
Be careful there. You ought to know what my name means and what its part might hint at. [snip 41 lines of ballast. One should tell these newbies that there IS a delete key, after all. But he is windowized, so don't be too hard on him ... the first time.]
Thanks Wolfgang. I wouldn't have made it without ya!
Oh, how sweet of you. I never met a kinder, gentler, more considerate person. It's been a pleasure to see how people can look up things in documentation and then ask friendly only about the difficult, unexplained parts, clearly indicating their level of knowledge. Such posts are really the shining examples of the whole 'net.
Who ask YOU in the first place? Are you lord of the list?
You did. If you didn't want to ask me, then you should have said so. Or used a list I am not subscribed to.
Thanks for the enlightenment. It's people like you who perpetuate the home-brew image of Linux, to keep it a rebel's OS. If it got a little easier to use then you'd feel like the game is over. Then you wouldn't have anyone around to post condescending messages to, to somehow give yourself the impression you are smarter than the average guy. That's OK, I see how it is now.
I don't have to 'give [myself or anyone else] the impression'. You know, amongst my faults there is no 'not self-confident' listed. However, I pity you for finding that you might be beaten in _one_ _single_ aspect and *then* proving everyone else that you are not able to write a good, toasty, skilled flame, either. You, sir, have my deepest pity, and I shall pray to some of the nastier gods to teach you how to write a flame without having to resort to the last option of evil-doers and honorless men: ad hominem attacks. That means: attacking the person instead of the opinions, kind sir, in case your dictionary does not contain it either. As for your sudden rush to defend the 'honor' od Linux as a non-rebel OS: Kind sir, it never was. It was just a student trying to get to know the MMU of his 80386. And also, dear sir, once you defended it, you backstab it, claiming it to be a 'rebel OS' ... such betrayal is really a sign of the truth and honesty of ones claims. And, to repell your last still standing argument: No, kind sir, I don't mind easy ways to manage your computer. If there was a programming language called RPM (Read Programmers Mind) I would be the strongesd advokate. Similar for a program/tool that'd RUM (Read Users Mind). However, until these programs exist, I will defend the most usable way to configure your programs. And up to now, none was a graphical tool. Sure, it may be easier for some, but once you need to change something that's not in them, you are far better of with configuration files. And trust me, that happens more often then you might belive. [snip idea to ask for usable docu, naming what one had read; describing problems exactly or even patching things]
Again, thanks so much for the wisdom here. How was my request different from what you describe? Sorry if my request failed your scoring. Please feel free to kiss my ass!
You, kind sir, whined. You demanded. You threatened, at least indirectly, to return to NT (and again, go there, kind sir, if you must. By all means, go there. Nobody wll stop you. But decide NOW which way to take.). You compared ("But that piece of shit is browner than Linux") ... or didn't you mention NT, where everything was so easy? Oh, you proved you can do better. Just remember how you asked about which software was aviable for your scanner ... that was the right way. And now you, sir, freak out because you've been told to read your documentation, not just one page, no, many pages. It seems you know not the first thing about UNIX, or how did you manage not to know anything about needing moutpoints? That's like saying in the DOS world "But what are these strange c: d: and e: for? And why doesn't format work when I do not type them? And when I type them, they delete all my files!" You really need a good book about UNIX in general, and don't say you don't have the money. You pay more for NT. So go out (after reading the apropriate HowTo, FAQ and SDB-page) and buy one. Read it. Understand it. Then come back here and ask thy questions. And if something does not work, do thyself a favor, kind sir, and do not just say 'it doesn't work (whine whine)', but copy and paste and write the exact error message. There are books found under /usr/doc/LDP/, especially /usr/doc/LDP/LDP/gs/, which you, kind sir, are to read to from the front to the back until you understood it, to be released of your sins. And now, since their presence has been announced, don't claim you could not know. As far as your kind behind is in question, kind sir, let down your pant... oh you already did in this post. Hmmm. Ok, take sandpaper (the really grainy one at 80 ... no, say 30 to 50, they are much more fun) and use it as toilet paper for the next few weeks. Oh, and I require a test-kiss performed by yourself on your kind behind. Mpeg will do fine. [my sig snipped] You, kind sir, seem to be mentally dearanged that you need to quote my signature whilst you have nothing to comment on it. I pity you, deeply and sincerely. -Wolfgang PS: May you live in interesting times. Oops, you already do. Ok, then may you live with whatever choice you make. (Hehe, I am really cruel today.) -- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. Is our economy _so_ weak we have to tolerate SPAMMERS? I guess not. -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e