Okay I finally get to your long mail, Anton. On 09/06/2015 09:36 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/06/2015 12:14 PM, Xen wrote:
Its more likely that, since you won't tell us the specifics, that you've selected 'eye candy' options that are sluggish. There could be many reasons for this. File system layout//lack of indexing//lack of search caching. Graphics that take time to render/resize.
KDE is very tempting about eye-candy.
If this is still about the speed of the Alt-F2, I think mr. John Andersen solved that for us? I turned off Fade and made sure Windows are not shown together with (or before/ prior to) the task switcher itself. Now a) the delay in showing the task switcher is gone, and b) it doesn't confuse anymore because the task switcher won't be grabbing attention caused by its later appearance. My task switching has now improved by a 200%, thanks to you (and John).
Since you don't give details and don't report on the 'alternatives' I've suggested, there's no way any of us can meaningfully comment.
That's not true, John commented meaningfully by giving details about the configuration of alt-f2 that I was not aware of (stupid me?).
So long as you refuse to give details of wht eye candy you have, what those alternatives are like, you're jsut baiting, little more than a troll.
I told you about the alternatives. I'm not sure what you want. They are not better than what I have now (alt-f2). I would never use them. What information do you want, and for what purpose? To troubleshoot the alt-f2 problem? I cannot meaningfully test in terms of speed the other options. Clearly, if I'm in a CLI and I'm in a window belonging to my default user, typing "kwrite" is very fast. I have to make it "kwrite &" though. But clearly, those other solutions are equally as slow when coming from a GUI environment. Again, I just did "alt-f1, kwrite, enter" and it did not register the enter. I'm not sure what data you want. Alt-F1, type, enter is about as fast as Alt-F2, type, enter, particularly since their animations take about as long, but I prefer alt-f2 in that case. In any case the speed is divided into two parts: - time to get to the point of executing kwrite - time it takes for kwrite to load Part number two is going to be equal for all methods.
Comparing Windows running insecure at ring zero with linux running securely and with security checks in place (such as apparmour) that Microsoft won't allow, your comparing a 1960s Lotus Elan with a 21st century mainstream sedan.
I'm not sure if kernel dynamics have an issue here. I barely know what ring zero means. I never did code protected mode assembly, only real mode.
Sure, but I don't know what causes the delays. I don't think it is the downtime of processing speed/calculations. I'm not sure. For instance, I would have to dive into all the things that happen when alt-f2 is pressed.
*sigh* Since you refuse to compare it with the other methods I've suggested this thread of argument is pointless.
Again, John was able to provide meaingful feedback without going into those comparisons, because he knew about the config options of krunner. I'm sorry I didn't see those options myself.
Yes, I've been saying ths all along. The 800Mhz.1G clunkers run KDE quite acceptably.
I wish I still had my 800 Mhz Duron, but I 'threw it away' to make space. I still have the (a) enclosure. It seems to be that when you get older, you start to notice how much your youth meant to you. Crying here. I thought about getting back an equivalent system. Those old motherboards are still for sale as complete systems. You buy a complete system and then just take the mobo and cpu out. Whatever. Barely nobody sells it as separate components still. But it will not ever be the same. My motherboard was Abit KT7a or without the a.... after that I had to replace it with some MSI thing I think. Same chipset. I just loved that device. Afterwards I put in a sempron 2600+ I think I still have that cpu. I also still have memory. But the Duron was my most loved cpu, I love my current Athlon as well. It's just something that's been with you for a long time. You've put so much love into it. Same with the K6 266. I couldn't care much about my earlier computer(s) though.
This is why I'm convinced you have a configuration problem. This is why I think you are wrong to be blaming the KDE designers.
But you won't give details or run comparison test.
Well, I consider the configuration problem (so to speak) that I had (and I still don't like it since the free-float option is bugged, and in any case) which was the default configuration for KDE, I consider that to be a fault of those designers. That krunner plugin list must be about 30 plugins and 20 of them at least are loaded. The only one I have left now is "run console application" since that doesn't even produce a search result list :D. A new user won't be able to use all those plugins anyway, because it is not apparent what they do or how you can use them. So if only an advanced and learned user can make use of them, but that advanced or learned user is also the one who can turn them on or off, shouldn't the default be suited more for a non-learned user? I mean, personally I don't like seeing long lists of applications etc. being filtered in real time when I'm just typing my regular app name. It has no purpose for me. I'm not intending to use search. I'm intending to use command-line-execution or at least program-execution by name. So by turning off ALL plugins except one, it now kinda does what I want. If I want it any better I will have to develop it myself. (But where's the time).
Others of us, not least of all me and the 'clunkers' from the proverbial Closet of Anxieties are finding KDE doing it all quite well and not encountering the delays you talk of.
Well apparently because you've gone through the length of changing the defaults. Hunting for options. Say, what will this do? Often it is not clear what some option is going to do until you try it.
You keep harping back to Windows: windows does this, that. Windows is a different architecture. It has specifics for the Intel architecture like running non kernel stuff at ring zero (aka hardware high privileged mode), which is security nightmare.
It is not about kernels man! I'm just using it as a frame of reference. Frames of references just tell you that there are other ways of doing it. It means there is perhaps a better way that what you are used to. Or it means a more functional, efficient way exists. It gives information, knowledge and insight as to what's possible and what has already been achieved in the past.
Actually I only read the Nathan part. I didn't read the Paul part as it's so full of...well.. bigotry.
Yes, so?
I thought you intended me to read the Paul part, so I was just indicating that I didn't.
I know there is a culture gap and I could discuss this with you at length (great length!) but it doesn't mean to say that the "linux" culture is superior to the "windows" culture. (Mac culture is not even referenced, apparently).
The issue isn't about superiority. its about different assumptions about how things work, should behave. its about perceptions.
You keep going on about Windows does this, does that. you're still stuck in Windows culture.
That you think the "Paul' side is bigoted as opposed to simply saying "this is the way UNIX people see things" tells me that you don't see things the way UNIX people see things.
So that sums up the roots of your problem.
That can only be the root of my problem if the "way UNIX people see things" is in some way superior, at LEAST as regards or pertains to the using or working with or living in that unix world. Superiority of course should always be qualified. Something can only be superior as regards or relates to a certain, or specific goal. Now I do not think and I know for a given that "seeing things the way UNIX people see things" will not solve my problems. They will only create more, because I cannot achieve my life goals (or my programming/computer goals in any case) doing it the UNIX way. If I were to do it the UNIX way, I would only be a clone of everyone else and achieve what everyone else achieves or is achieving (or the lack thereof). I don't want to be a borg, you know. I don't want to be an ant running along in this ant-hill. Become some worker bee or ant for the great ant or bee hyve colony. I'm saying that "Windows people" have something to offer just as when some Mac user indicated that not being allowed to rename an open file, is ludicrous. To windows users. The UNIX WAY produces a lot of wasted time and effort. I don't want that. I'm trying to work together with people and not have to do the same work they have done before. Also when I develop myself I try to ensure that those who come after me don't need to do the same nasty stuff I have had to do. I am not sure if that is the Unix way but it is the Open Source way that produces a lot of wasted effort. I will say that out of every 100 hour spent on open source, 90 are readily wasted because they go about doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. Even one person doing it right will produce much more wonder than a million doing it wrong. So I'm not doing it the Unix way because the Unix (or OSS) way is precisely what causes me to lose so much time. And if they get their way, they will continue to cause everyone a great deal of wasted time. I'm trying to change that, in my ... mediocre way. I'm hoping that one day people will assume that a time good spent is a time spent in such a way that another won't need to spend that same time doing the same thing.
The way I use my computer(s), search (desktop search) works against me rather than for me.
True for many people including myself.
Sweet.
But Linux people (distro developers, and the like) don't give you the choice to turn off Baloo.
You are misinformed. There is s way to turn it off. Its documented. its been discussed in this list. Its there in systemsettings.
So I was wrong. I'm getting misinformed about a lot of things. Not by any people misinforming me. I just have been too busy to look into it seeing as that I'm spending my time on all the other stuff I need to change about that system. I hadn't come down to checking whether that Baloo could be turned off easily and what would be the consequences. I'm still not sure about the consequences. The user interface doesn't inform me. There is also no visual indication of Baloo running; if it was such an important part of the system there should at least be a monitoring applet with options. Okay Windows doesn't have it either, what do I care. Windows is not great. Not anymore, at least. Without that "Advanced" tool of yours you can also not really learn what Baloo is in fact indexing. Even you people didn't know for sure. Don't you think that is some important piece of information users should have? Maybe I should be talking to KDE devs, but since you apparently seem to represent them in some way, as advocates or salespeople of the unix world/crowd/culture, I can also talk to you and maybe you will change things ;-). Who have already configured their systems and can actually use it for their work.
I'm not defending anything here except a methodology; I'm saying there are alternative ways to start programs and before condemning alt-F2 as slow you need to establish a comparison with the other methods. You seem to be studiously avoiding doing this.
If the other methods were equally as slow or slower (which they are/were) (are mostly) then obviously there is not any one good method. What were you trying to do? Fix me up with some lesser solution? If krunner doesn't do what it's supposed to do, then it needs to be fixed in some way, not worked around. I had asked whether there was a real alternative to that precise thing. Nobody really responded with a suggestion. You'd think there'd be some alternative program that does what krunner does only better, but I surmise it doesn't exist.
Obviously the program launch speed itself is going to be the same from one option to the next.
No, its not obvious.
Why not? You think other methods do a form of caching? That is ludicrous. These are all simple tools, they do not run kwrite-launch-servers or anything. The way jEdit does.
1. launching programs from a command line (graphical ones) is troublesome because they leave behind residue output in the shell that you don't want.
Right, so you run with all system logging turned off. perhaps?
This is a puerile excuse.
Wuh?
The issue isn't lifetime CLI, its performance comparison.
Performance of what? You still haven't answered that.
You obviously are unwilling to compare alt-f2 with a CLI start. What's tour real reason?
pressing enter after I have typed "kwrite" in alt-f2 will achieve the same as pressing enter in a CLI. Actually, now that I'm trying it, kwrite from the CLI doesn't do anything. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It just took 15 seconds. Now that that is out of the way, kwrite start is almost instant. Actually running it from alt-f2 seems to take longer. I don't know what's the difference, but it shows that jumping icon and just takes a bit longer. I guess you were right that there was or could be a slight difference. I don't know. Maybe krunner does even more stuff behind the scenes than I suspected. In any case you could have run those tests yourself as well. Launching kwrite from Alt-F1 (gecko new menu) is also slightly faster than from alt-f2. Weird. kwrite from favourite in gecko new menu, is same startup time as from typing it in search of alt-f1. CLI is not instant but let's say it takes half a second. That is the minimum from what I see. Alt-F1 adds a little bit to it (not much) maybe it is exactly the same I just get thrown off by the added icon. alt-f2 seems to be slightly longer but I might also get thrown off by the jumping icon. In any case the different methods do not produce such a diverse result as that any one would be superior to the other just by measure of its actual startup time.
3. Never used that; I consider most of the "Gecko" menu (KDE menu) to be quite unusable. I only use the favourites and the search feature.
What you consider your likes and dislikes is beside the point when doing comparison testing. The issue is to cover all contingencies.
For what reason? I won't use those other methods anyway. The method of access is more pertinent or important or of interest than the actual program launch.
4. I use that but only to launch bigger applications like browsers, irc chat, email, sometimes dolphin, the configuration settings thing. I don't use it for smaller items I need to open more often or more quick.
Again, that's a cop-out. This is a comparison test.
Buh, I don't know why or what you're trying to do.
Not CLI?
You don't use the CLI in Windows to start GUI applications, except when you are in a CLI and you want to open a file browser there.
Again, beside the point. This is abut comparison testing.
Same, you never explained yourself. What is your hope, that once you have the data you can give me a suggestion?
The windows shell is quite conceptually different from the UNIX shell. Under UNIX the shell and mastery of same is key to getting things done. The Windows shell is a holdover from the days of DOS and is poorly integrated.
"Scripting", be it the shell, be it VIM, be it darktable, is where the real power of UNIX/Linux lies.
Well that's why I like Linux.
Same in Linux I guess; opening GUI applications from the cmd line is often fraught with peril.
NOT! very very NOT!
In many cases the CLI or its embedded equivlent is the only way to get at the full power of a GUI application.
That is at odds with being a GUI application. Of course there are sometimes command line options. They should be kept to a mininum.
Heck, even when confiuguring the system for MINE dispatching, even the core of systemd units, all this uses CLI/shell notation & syntax.
I don't know what that is to do with GUI....
What is a wall?
Its where the various processes are presented in an array like bricks in a wall. Nice big icons. Scaled so that they, togehter, fill the "lightbox'-like popup area. More processes, smaller icons.
All this set up in systemsettings.
Okay.
Why don't you use the tools to adjust size?
What tools? I have no use for "Window" thumbnails (in the task switcher) whatsoever. What can a shrunk-down minitiature of a window possibly achieve?
A shrunk down miniature of a larger image takes CPU power to resize.
I have issues with sizes being too high or too low, not that they take time to resize. Besides, scaling SVG shouldn't really take time. And I think you can neglect anything else, I think it is neglectible.
If your icon set is all large (e.g. 64/128) then scaling them down to 16x16 pixels or smaller takes CPU power.
Fonts take scaling and if you have many fonts or use fancy fonts that are more CPU intensive to scale .. well you figure out why eye candy takes power.
No, I'm sorry, I'm too stupid for that.
Someone, create Medium :P. Why is there "too small" and "too big" but not "in between"? :P. Or maybe there is and I can download it.....
yes you can download them, either from the repositories or from many other places like KDE-Looks
I did spend some time before getting other window switchers. I don't remember, it is some time ago. It's the sort of stuff you don't want to do again. Again, it is not even about icons, but about the window switcher that is just not well developed. I can't help that. Right now I'm reasonbly content with "Big Icons". Instead of offering "Big Icons" and "Small Icons" they should just allow you to set a size....
Oh dear. You seem to be stuck using an icon package that has only fixed sizes. There are ones that are scalable. Why don't you try those.
No, the window switcher sets the size of the icon that it scales to. Ultimately any icon, and bit array, is re-scalable, but some packages have descriptors, such as vectors, that make the resizing easier. BitMapped icons, which are most icons, most images, are not designed for re-scalability. Many are designed for compression, things like run length coding of the bit array.
It isn't about the icons. It is about the window switchers being offered. That stands almost orthogonal to icon sizes. The window switchers have a fixed size.
I don't know. Like I said, I got myself into a kind of life where I don't really have time to learn how to use a system where every little bit needs to be adjusted to your preference or else it is unworkable.
its your decision that
a) the defaults are unworkable for you even though they are workable for so many other people
I think you have never yet heard of a person who couldn't use Linux?
b) you are unwilling to customise even if it will save you time and/or grief/heartache later on
Look, buster, I am already spending all my waking hours trying to adjust this system, I was just asking for some help. Or at least all my waking hours in which I can actually do something. That also involves writing backup scripts and all that. Trying to hunt for options in KDE is not exactly my most excruciatingly pleasant daytime activity. I have other stuff to do, but not much. So I have all the time in the world, and I still need help. I also need to relax now and then, but I'm not getting much of it I guess.
Currently I am achieving a high level of customization but imagine the horror of having to do it all over again.
Why would you do it all over again? What? when you upgrade? Move? Don't be silly. Exclude /home from the update. Take backups. I backup onto DVDs so its easy to restore onto another machine :-)
Erm. Well, yeah. My life differs. I'm currently backing up, or trying to get to the point of finally backing up, to ... I guess.. several different remote servers in the hope that one of them will survive the onslaught in my life.
That fade thing was caused by Fade. The Window switcher Fade in was also caused by Fade. I turned that off now...... for the moment. There is nothing special in there, all are KDE defaults. Blur. Translucency. I don't know. Make a new user lol, it will all be there.
Turn all that eye-candy off.
I won't. Transparent windows are unworkable without blur, and they are nonexistent without translucency :P.
Why do you want to 'blame' someone? Why do you want to call designers 'incompetent' when they are just making different assumptions from what you expect?
Because I can't blame myself if I don't understand how I ended up here.
Seems narcissistic to me. There's and old saying
In the fight between you and the world, back the world.
Back the world? Never heard of that. It also doesn't resound as true in any case. I'm currently cursing at myself for a mistake I've made in the past causing a server that is running in my home not to be running elsewhere which would be a lot safer for me and which would have probably caused me to live abroad right now with about a 60-70% chance of that having been a succeeding thing. The consequences of that choice are starting to dawn on me now. :(. I broke my feet as the result of that choice, and that is the least of it. Yes I have two broken feet at the moment. :(. Anyway. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org