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On 26 December 2015 at 11:30, jdd
Le 26/12/2015 11:08, Richard Brown a écrit :
But hopefully with this post people can understand how things came to this point so tempers can calm and we can all move on.
after reading this, I wonder is the reason for this was not (partly) because before leap was released we where asked to use factory for leap.
It may not be appropriate to have one list for two very different distros.
I do not see how your suggestion is remotely relevant to the issues I highlighted in my email opensuse-factory is the development mailinglist for both of the openSUSE distributions - Tumbleweed and Leap and for general development discussions around openSUSE technologies that do not have their own lists (eg. openQA) Using -factory as the development mailinglist for Leap doesn't suddenly make Bug reports valid, on topic, discussions for opensuse-factory .. bug reports go to bugzilla Nor does it make 'user discussions' valid, that is what this list of for We've since updated the descriptions on http://lists.opensuse.org to make this even clearer, but really it should go without saying, as it has not changed in the 10 year history of the Project. The same rules applied for our lists for the development of Leap, 13.2, 13.1, 12.3, and every other release before those. The 'noise' generated by Carlos included bug report and user support posts about both Leap and Tumbleweed.
I also note in your post that "old contributors" are not welcome in favor of new ones.
No, I welcome both "old contributors" and "new contributors", but in the case of Translation the debate was more between "contributors" and "former contributors" (ie. those who had contributed to previous releases, but were not translating Tumbleweed or Leap. In the case of Carlos I would actually describe him as 'actively not contributing', as he was aggressively pushing the argument that Tumbleweed COULD NOT be translated..) Ultimately I am always going to favour and support those who are actively working to do something for the Project over anyone or anything that stands in their way, even if those standing in the way have a history of helping the Project I do not think that is a bad attitude to have.
Why was not this "translation" problem discussed on the right (aka translation) mailing list long before?
It was discussed long before, but some of those "old contributors" effectively blocked the idea via bikeshedding It's an unfortunate fact of open source life that discussion only has a limited impact, where as 'action' defines where the Project goes. In this case, the Weblate contributors decided, based on previous experience, that instead of discussing first, then doing, they would do first then discuss This is not ideal, and I criticised it in the threads I suggested you read, but given the circumstances I do find it understandable That is the lesson of "those who do, decide" - polite conversation is nice to have, and should be encouraged, but at the end of the day what matters most is that contributors contribute and that those contributors have nothing in their way from contributing.
I remember the time when some people decided to make better (that is more organized) the wiki. I didn't agree and simply stepped off the wiki edit, because I'm not a fighter, and see what is the wiki, now: nearly dead;
Because there was lots of talk about how the wiki should be, and not much action - your stepping back was part of that problem. People have to do stuff for openSUSE to succeed. As a Project I often worry that we spend too much time talking about stuff, and too many people seem to think that *only* talking about stuff are meaningful contributions. I do not believe that to be the case, and so I work hard to support the Project and make it easier for people to actually DO stuff.
We can success only with aggregating forces, not excluding.
We can succeed only by doing stuff - In the case of Translation we had a group of people doing stuff, and a group of people telling them they shouldn't Aggregation was not an option, especially with Carlos additionally saying he would never work with them.
I fear this is really a lack of people management in openSUSE.
As a volunteer project, 'people management' is a complicated topic. You cannot 'manage' volunteers. We do not hire, fire, or assign tasks to individuals. We cannot force people to do what they are ordered. Volunteers will do what they want, when they want, how they want. Even the Board is a group of volunteers working in the spare time after being entrusted with that role by a larger group of volunteers (openSUSE members) In terms of people management, the best we can do is direct, support, and nurture. Encorage people to work together when they can, or at least work in a way that doesn't disrupt each other if they can't. Define common standards of behaviour and policies so everyone is operating on the same page. If that fails, if the individuals involved refuse to listen and disrupt the activities of the rest of the Project, sadly the only option left is exclusion. The decision to ban Carlos was the first time the Board asserted itself in this role in several years, but I still feel it was a necessary action to remove a blockage that was hindering contributions to the Project. I hope that this is the last time in a while the Board has to act in such a way, but am glad we have a board to help keep the Project on track, adhering to it's guiding principles, and ultimately being productive.
Believe it or not, Richard, I find many of your posts as aggressive, but this is only a personal feeling and it's not a reason for other to be aggressive with you as they are too often. An I acknowledge the great work you do for openSUSE at large (I don't want you to leave).
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I also believe that there is a high proportion of my emails which you do not fully understand, as quite often demonstrated by your responses. Maybe my point of view loses something in translation, but sadly when dealing with complicated topics I have no choice but to resort to full blown 'native English' to properly express what I'm thinking. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org