Thank you for your lengty response. Very helpful. On 09/06/2015 03:38 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Yes and I have it running on equipment that makes that look like a bleeding edge speed daemon!
Perhaps I've mentioned that my system is not really naturally sluggish. My system is really fast enough. I just think the designers made some choices that caused 'embedded' delays in how you experience the speed of the system, some of which are caused by animations, some are caused by search, some are caused by hickups in the system they did not intend. My Linux is as fast as my Windows except for all those experiences of delay. Look. If I was in the position (see, I'm blaming people here --- Linux people). If I was in the position I would just devise a little run dialog box myself. I would try to see if I could integrate it with the search thing, but first I would make sure it pops up in a good location instantly, and does what I need it to do first - which is no search but just running. Then I would go and find out about that integration thing and try to see if I can decouple the search from the dialog as it responds to key input. I would make it asynchronous in a way. I would probably make it a horizontal box in some way with two rows. I would create two types of search results most likely: one that is the ultimate thing I need (have typed) in the horizontal cell right below my type field. That cell would be "that is what currently going to happen". So that cell is always going to tell me what is going to happen when I press enter. To the right of that, and to the right of my type field, are two cells with search results. The top search result is an application. The bottom search result is a location. This would be consistent. So there are three feedback 'inputs'. What is going to happen, what is an application similar or most close to what I have typed, and what is a location that is most close to what I have typed. I'm only bragging about this because I'm too stupid to live my life in a way that I can actually choose to create it myself. Typing the arrow keys then (pressing the arrow keys) would be able to select any one of those three fields. That would open the dialog. The dialog would have a dimension of about 1 vertical by 1.5 horizontal. Or maybe 1 vertical and 2 horizontal. I just came up with this on the spot.
For you with your 4G, possibly, but on this 1G clunker I have, I doubt it :-) and the bulk of 'caching' is likely to be the virtual memory dirty queue retrieval.
Right, well, I was not saying it was a problem with you. On my system, it can clearly not be a cause. Which is why I wonder why and HOW ON EARTH can the alt-f2 thing take so long at times.
HA BLOODY HA HA. You're new here, you don't know me and my demands of equipment. if you did you'd know that I make a hobby of retrieving old equipment from the proverbial 'closet of Anxieties', other people's discards, and making them shine. Stuff that could, perhaps, have run W/XP in its day but nothing later of Microsoft, but runs current Linux to do the kinds of jobs that people are spending good money on for W/10 to do 'chromebook' level work, email, web i/f for Facebook, some word processing. Web applications. And all at acceptable performance.
I mean high demands of the user interface. And, long since, it started with my experience of the load times of Opera browser back in the day (say 2007). The same program always started up about twice as fast (or maybe 50% as fast) (I mean 1.5 as fast) in Windows as it did in Linux. Too now. Whenever I start Chromium it takes a long time. Whenever I start Firefox it takes a long time. Whenever I start Thunderbird when it is already open it takes about 10 or more seconds for it to realise that it is already running.
And yes, all with an eye-candy GUI.
Sure, but I don't know what causes the delays. I don't think it is the downtime of processing speed/calculations. I'm not sure. For instance, I would have to dive into all the things that happen when alt-f2 is pressed. From the keypress to the application being launched (how is it being launched? Is it sitting in memory as a daemon process? Is a new instance run from the harddisk each time? Why does it take so long to respond?) before I could really form an opinion on what causes it.
And I don't do this lightweight; I consider things like LVM "normal".
:). I love LVM. I'm using thin volumes now. They wouldn't work in Kubuntu at first, because the package was missing, but it is installed in SUSE by default (thank god!). I don't like manipulating the partition table as much for regular tasks such as backusp; that's why I don't like the snapshot features all that much. There is such a big risk of ruining things. So I was writing an application in Bash that would safeguard against such mistakes. It would be my layer wrapped around the lvcreate and (!!) lvremove commands so that the chance of making any mistake would be reduced to zero. I guess I'm going to shut down my computer life now and try to live a computerless life again.
OK, on some mobos I have to use a videocard cos the video on the mobo is broken. Big deal, its another item from the Closet and no more bleeding edge than the original. Ditto Ethernet cards.
Sure I used to do that as well. There is a cleaner (janitor) here in this facility who collects old boxes and runs Debian on them. I don't know what he does with it, but it seems interesting and fun. It seems he creates clusters of servers doing something, not sure.
Many of these clunkers, like some I got from the School Board, even pre-date the Capacitor Plague!
Before 1999 (I never heard about it!) I had an AMD K6 266 MHz. Are you saying KDE still runs on it? I had given it to my then GF but she 'left my life' and took that computer with her. I REGRET THAT.
Some of us Greybeards have decades on you. That not to belittle you; its just a fact. And a property of that is that we have acculturated in a way that many things we do "by reflex" and don't have to think about it, so have problems communicating the keystrokes.
I don't think my problems with Linux currently stem from this cultural difference. It stems from KDE trying to do what Windows does but failing at it equally bad. I love the console, for what it goes.
There's an article I reference occasionally
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/murphy/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/1137
Actually I only read the Nathan part. I didn't read the Paul part as it's so full of...well.. bigotry.
The take-away is that there is a BIG culture gap. its a way of looking at things, a way of envisioning how things work, and ought to work.
I know there is a culture gap and I could discuss this with you at length (great length!) but it doesn't mean to say that the "linux" culture is superior to the "windows" culture. (Mac culture is not even referenced, apparently). Let's just say that the Unix camp can be characterized by the word "scorn". I am not sure if there is a great difference between Unix and Linux. I only had one friend who used BSDs and I know not much abou them, except that they deal with security issues a bit more rapidly.
The questions you've asked, despite your clear enthusiasm and commitment, leave me with the opinion that you haven't fully made the transition, haven't fully 'let go' of the "other side" view of things. That's not a belittlement; I'm an immigrant where I live and I still suffer some culture-shocks. People say things in idioms I'm not familiar with. many accents still baffle me. I have different terms for things.
Thank you for your admittance and acceptance. That's the first time in the Linux world that someone has characterized positive traits of mine, that I can remember. But I seriously doubt that the current direction of KDE should be the "here side" of things. Search, my prominent and predominent hate, considers Baloo and perhaps Akonadi (not sure), but it also happens in Ubuntu (with the Dash) is the exact same cultural notion that has so sickened the Windows atmosphere and is continuing to poison it (with their Windows 10 "we collect all your data off your hard drive and send it to our servers and our partners) " .... and I have just never come across a desktop search feature that I liked. I cannot imagine how this is "Unix" culture. Of course I intend to create one myself, but I have so many projects and like I said, my life is quite a mess and I think I need to get out of it (and out of using computers in the first place). The way I use my computer(s), search (desktop search) works against me rather than for me. But Linux people (distro developers, and the like) don't give you the choice to turn off Baloo. You hardly notice it's there until it starts hogging resources or ruining your computer. So while you may defend Alt-F2, it just does what the Windows 7 start menu does.
But UNIX/Linux is a 30+ year culture for me. As I say, some things are so deeply embedded I'm not conscious of them. I edit in VI because my fingertips know it. Using this embedded editor in Thunderbird I have to stop and think about corrections, some of which are actually my fingers doing VI-like things.
It happens to me for a short while. I think I've used Vim since 1996 or 1999, somewhere there, but never learned quite much about it. I still almost use the same small subset of actions/commands that I did back then. I tried to search for more but it was too difficult and a waste of time. Now, since I am using Linux much more than in the past, I sometimes learn new stuff but not much. I tend to use "w" more rapidly for instance than in the past. "w" and "b". That's about the biggest change I've made since about 6 months of VIM usage.
Have you compared start-up by different means?
I've suggested alternatives to using the alt-f2. I admit I hardly ever use the alt-f2 since I have my system configured so my 'favourites' are more easily, readily available.
So why do you defend it?.
How does the start-up of kwrite compare ...
* from a command line in an kterminal * from gecko: Application -> utilities -> editor * from 'recently used' in the gecko menu * as a pinned 'favourite' in the gecko menu * as a pinned main item in the gecko menu * using the search bar in the gecko menu
Obviously the program launch speed itself is going to be the same from one option to the next. 1. launching programs from a command line (graphical ones) is troublesome because they leave behind residue output in the shell that you don't want. 2. I told about it in a different mail. 3. Never used that; I consider most of the "Gecko" menu (KDE menu) to be quite unusable. I only use the favourites and the search feature. 4. I use that but only to launch bigger applications like browsers, irc chat, email, sometimes dolphin, the configuration settings thing. I don't use it for smaller items I need to open more often or more quick. There was a time when I populated my Windows XP start menu (and Windows 98, and ...) that way. See, you could easily add entries to that menu as a user. So I created my own categories on top of the default thing, and put every important program in there. Then, e.g. to open Irfanview (the f... the image editor) no viewer..... oh it can edit as well. To open it I would press Win, P, I, I (for example) and it would select the revelant entry from the menu and open it. This is just an example, that is actually the default sequence for an Irfanview install. It is clear something like that doesn't work in KDE menu. Basically I could open every application in the system with a few keystrokes. Dependable and consistent. This is the 'cascaded menu system' (how to call it) that I still like a lot. A tree menu that opens on key presses.
and finally, using KDE to create a sidebar panel with favourites in the way that David Rankin described. You'd either going to have to ask David or search the archives. Alternatively you could experiment.
I may need to get into that at some point, I don't know. Thank you for the reminder.
Indeed, the only bound key I have is the one to bring the gecko menu up.
Hmm hmm. So we agree at some point ;-).
Not CLI?
You don't use the CLI in Windows to start GUI applications, except when you are in a CLI and you want to open a file browser there. Same in Linux I guess; opening GUI applications from the cmd line is often fraught with peril. I might use it to open a file with a specific application. I have managed to configure my Bash shell such that my "sudo su" root shells can now also open applications in KDE. Which is a default in Debian/Ubuntu, for what that goes... But you generally don't open GUI applications without arguments from the CLI. You are IN the GUI and you can just as easily (normally!) open them from there. The CLI, after all, is probably some GUI terminal window in your GUI system.
Until you're at least comfortable with CLI as a way of doing things, you're not fully acclimatized.
I'm not sure if I need to acclimatize, but just saying, I am probably more comfortable in the Linux CLI than I am in the Linux GUI. When I was consistently and solely using Windows in the many years between say 2004 and 2010 (with smaller periods of using desktop Linux) I was still always using Linux CLI at remote servers. I mean between 2004 and 2014 I guess. I have only really started using Linux again since this year.
I'm not obsessive about this; I think some GUIs are wonderful for doing GUI things like reading email and browsing the web and editing mind-maps and doing spreadsheets and presentations. Menus are good 'short-cuts' and I can offload specifics into them.
I'm just saying menus were better shortcuts in the past. We have seen a deterioriation.... what did that book call it? Regression. We have seen a regression in recent years as to how the GUI functions, not a progression. "It is the mark of a primitive mind to view regression as progress".
But expecting the delivered system to be smarter than you is drinking the proverbial Microsoft cool-aid. Microsoft is about learned dependency and learned disability. Their menu is a crutch and not an accelerator.
No, I am offended by it TRYING to be smarter than me. Providing me with search "suggestions" that I don't want. I want the system to do exaclty what I tell it to, nothing more than that (and nothing less). These GUI systems of today are much less under the user's control than in the past. I think you are a bit mistaken about Windows, unless you are mentioning Windows 7 and 8 menus now. Perhaps you've noticed that I am not much keen on Windows 7 "improvements" that went on in a much worse way again with Windows 8. Actually my position these days is that there is no good software anymore. I don't know what happened. I like ended up in a twilight zone. I'm not sure if you've seen that movie called Back to the Future part two. They end up in a different present after having made a roundabout to the future. That different present is where a different history has taken place; now the crook of the story runs things and is in charge, and the whole town has turned into a biker gang paradise. I experienced that deep alienation back on october I think when I went back to some place I have loved before. I have experience that alienation in a very deep since every since August of last year. I still experience it today, although much less ...acute or intense. Just consider the following example or allegory: "A system decides on its own when it is going to tell you things, on a rather random basis not based on user input." That is something I don't like. I want my system to be deterministic from my point of view.
I can say alt-tab is also not instant here.
The you very definitely have something wrong.
I do not consider 1/5th of a second very instant. When I keep alt-tab pressed the window changes are instant. It's just the popup window switcher that takes time to fade in in a very nasty way. I guess you can call that configuration. Seriously. I might alt-tab to a window instantly and it is the right window, right? So I am already done, right? But no, after my window is already visible, the dialog is still fading in. So, that dialog grabs my attention, since it is an event proceeding (coming after) (how to say that?) the window switch. Now I am paying attention to my cute little window switcher like it tells me to. And what does it tell me? I don't know, I can't really read it. It gives me the impression that I have more to do to reach my window. So I try to squint at it, all the while my desired window being visible behind it. So like I said, it is not really the system (hardware) being slow (or the software even, in this case). In this case it is just the design of the software being so off that it confuses me and interrupts my task instead of speeding it.
I have mine configured (thanks to 'systemsettings') to present a wall. There are also there keybindings to do 'next'/'prev' and some defaults for that. It depends how little you want to use the mouse. I'm getting the feeling you don't like to use the mouse.
What is a wall? Prev/next is just alt-tab and alt-shift-tab.
Thumbnails I can't interpret visually ;-). What's the use even.
Why don't you use the tools to adjust size?
What tools? I have no use for "Window" thumbnails (in the task switcher) whatsoever. What can a shrunk-down minitiature of a window possibly achieve?. I have currently turned off "Show selected window". That means the window is now not faster than the switcher, which ends the confusion. I don't think I can change the icons of the "Big Icons" window switcher. That's why they call it "Big" :P. Someone, create Medium :P. Why is there "too small" and "too big" but not "in between"? :P. Or maybe there is and I can download it.....
Oh dear. You seem to be stuck using an icon package that has only fixed sizes. There are ones that are scalable. Why don't you try those.
No, the window switcher sets the size of the icon that it scales to.
Of course! Those come with scalable icons.
This is Linux, not Windows. You get what the specific developer(s) decide. Some are not acculturated, some don't spend the time polishing their turd.
Yes it was quite annoying when TrueCrypt (now deceased, so to speak) only had this tiny icon when all the other ones did scale.
Opinion and acculturation. And besides, you can download more; I've mentioned this before. The wall uses BIG ICONS. (that's 'present windows)
I don't know. Like I said, I got myself into a kind of life where I don't really have time to learn how to use a system where every little bit needs to be adjusted to your preference or else it is unworkable. Currently I am achieving a high level of customization but imagine the horror of having to do it all over again.
The visual impression is that of an outline of a window being drawn including fill, and then that drawn outline being faded in. Title and buttons are having a fade-in here. The window is instant but the text and buttons are not, which is a visual effect of having to wait. It is not handled by KWin's "Fade" apparently.
What's your
systemsetting -> Desktop Effects Configure Desktop Effects
settings?
That fade thing was caused by Fade. The Window switcher Fade in was also caused by Fade. I turned that off now...... for the moment. There is nothing special in there, all are KDE defaults. Blur. Translucency. I don't know. Make a new user lol, it will all be there.
You know what I'd say to myself? Maybe you shouldn't be using a computer in the first place. Maybe you should stop using a computer for a while. Stay away from it for a while.
I've stayed away from Windows per Windows (except when an employer has given me a laptop with same to use Office/email and even then it might well have been Lotus Notes or something equally as weird) for 20+ years. I think I'd have real problems trying to use something like W/10.
I mean I have so much issues with so much software these days that I better just stay away from everything and.... do personal enjoyment things in a physical way for the coming 3 years exclusively.
If I'd then speak of designer incompentence, I'd say: you can't blame the developers for your life being a mess.
Or alternative blame yourself for dragging in and holding on to Windows concepts and expectations in a Linux world.
I have many gripes with Windows as well. I consider myself lost in a strange world.
Then I wouldn't need to blame anyone anymore for my experiences.
Why do you want to 'blame' someone? Why do you want to call designers 'incompetent' when they are just making different assumptions from what you expect?
Because I can't blame myself if I don't understand how I ended up here. Because my experience is rotten and something should cause it. Partially, hopefully, it will end up being my own choices of the present and past. I would call them incompetent because they don't understand basic usability principles. Not that the design team of say Apple Computers is so great about that, but at least they understand how to make things easy for a user, even if the Apple ecosystem tries to take power away from users by vendor-locking them into Apple everything. Or the other way around, it vendor-locks them by taking away power. Nevertheless, and needless, I know for a fact that if I were in charge, Linux would become a hundred times more user friendly in 6 months even if I had only a 100 people to command. It would surpass both Windows and Mac for everyone in ~13 months. I'm just that good but I also love doing it. I spend attention to detail and make sure the experience is just perfect. I notice all the peculiarities and things that don't quite work as they were thought up to be. I see what can change and I know how to change it. Usually -- I am not very good at graphics myself. I consider myself a bit of a layout specialist, even if my only experience has been GUI design in Windows using a RAD tool and the layout of some magazine that was published in a certain area. I just love perfecting layouts. I just stink at colours and all, being partially colour-blind. I am quite keen at home user d.. user interface design effects people even when others don't. I don't pride myself on being a Linux guru or a Windows guru or anything. I just go by with what works but I also notice people coming from Windows and I see their complaints and I know they are real. I don't like much of what Microsoft is doing these days and in the past I ridiculed them like everyone did. I had a website in 1996 or 1997 that only featured Microsoft jokes. That "Mike" that was reference in your ZDNet article. He was basically ridiculed by you, wasn't he? I didn't read the respondents (respondent's) text (that Paul something) but I know for a fact he was being... compared to an idiot there. And as long as you don't listen to your users, you won't know how to design for them. But I do. I always listen to any user interface complaint. Anything that is real, and most of it is. I don't remember ever hearing a complaint in my life that was off. Even if it is off you can probably understand it with a particular peculiarity in someone's physical constitution or past experience. And you can design around that.
* as a pinned main item in the gecko menu * using the search bar in the gecko menu
I am not sure what a pinned main item is as opposed to a pinned favourite. I also explained the search, it is unreliable. From a purely objective perspective you can say that it produces unreliable and unpredictable results. Not something I want in a computer system.
Example: I don't like driving in France. Its not that they drive on the different side of the road from what I grew up with; its not that the signs are in French. its that so many of the 'road protocols' are different, like the way they use 'roundabouts' is the exact opposite to that of the rest of the world; they have priority for enter rather than priority for exit.
Adapting to the different road protocols of North America was significant. Some of the things I've seen America drivers do, which they consider perfectly natural and reasonable, have freaked out my European sensibility about what 'makes sense' on the road. I've see it the other way round, too, American's having problems with the protocols of the UK and Europe.
That might just mean that you have a frame of reference and they don't. It doesn't mean that they would be equally freaked out in the same direction (that you came from). Perhaps they would have to get used of it, leaving there own (their) own way behind. But they would soon discover that it was better, more enjoyable. See, not all things are equal. The famous line (in my life at least) from Trigun's episode with the drunk gunsmith - "But this is not equal". That I still don't understand lol. Someone coming from a more functional way of doing things going into a less functional way of doing things, will never quite forget, it is impossible to forget the prior more enjoyable experience. He/she has a frame of reference that the people accustomed to the less functional way of doing things, do not have. However, someone coming from the less functional way of doing things entering a more functional way, will have to drop some pride. There will be ego investment in the less functional way because that ego investment was the only thing that prevented more functional ways of surfacing. So there is false pride here. He will have to lose false pride. Or she. That might be inconvenient but in the end it is felt as an escape and a release. A sense of "finally". Now that experience is the thing that tells you the truth. If your experience was not a sense of "finally" (as in your case with your migrations) then you were accustomed to a more functional way of doing things. And it will be ... you will be hard fetched to convince anyone of that, where you migrated to. On the other hand, just one simple example. An american (American) woman starting a bakery in my home town. Immediate bliss. Not entirely, not all of it. But certainly so. Customer service that I've never been used to. Immediate bliss. The woman offers to charge phones for people who see their phones running out. Never happened before in the history of this country. Someone actually offering a friendly service out of nowhere. She felt as though the local entrepeneurs that also ran shops and all hated her for being that, for being different. She experienced being sabotaged in certain things. Her land lady was the cause of that, I'm sure. Things are not equal. Going from an ego-invested mindset to a more liberal mindset is not the same experience as going in reverse. You will always find things in a new culture that are like "Hey, this is amazing!" and also things that are like "Oh my god, I can't see how they can stand this." See, functionality is not a subjective thing because the human being is basically one single operation that works the same for everyone. Feelings like "feeling hurt" or "being exalted" or whatever are common across all cultures. User interface design improvements can be common across all people as well. Usually you won't know what it is until you get it. Then you can experience it. Till then it might be hard to talk about it. Especially if you've been used to a less functional thing for so long that you feel it is like nirvana. How about a user interface design concept that made it into BeOS but never anywhere else? It is still in what they call Haiku. Can you discover it? It is prevalent on even the first screenshot. It is called (or could be called) "tabbed windows". Yes, tabbed windows. Not windows with embedded tabs. Windows that are tabs themselves. It was there long ago. Amazing concept, never seen it in action (for longer than a few moments). You know where I saw it in action? It was at a Unix Consumer group of the Hobby Computer Club in this country. They held meetings. I went to one. It was back in 1996 I think. I was 15. I just in general consider Linux people to be /low profile consumers/ of user interface design. User interface principles are not in high demand by the Unix/Linux crowd. That is all I can see and all I can say. To get back to this:
Not CLI?
You don't use CLI to start any application unless you need to run it from that directory (usually because of an argument to the command line invocation) because in Windows you have Win+R which instantly opens up a run dialogue with history. For example opening up an SSH session to some remote (or local) host is as quick as win+r, putty @alias and you're up and running. I find opening many or repeated ssh sessions in Linux very difficult. I can put aliases in .ssh/config, but I first need to open a terminal window or a new tab in that terminal window. On the other hand, Putty has a very nasty way of handling closed connections. Its user interface for saving profiles is also not exactly great or amazing. Nevertheless it is what you use. And force-closing an SSH session often means closing the tab in your console GUI thing. I didn't know about the CTRL-SHIFT-S shortcut yet. It doesn't show any shortcuts in the GUI as you hover over the menu items. A learning failure from the perspective of what would be possible given better design. So I don't know about you but I have pretty clear views of where it can go. It's just that most active Linux people generally respond with "You're a moron!" when you suggest anything. They talk about culture gaps when none even exist and when they are defending features that are being advocated by Windows in the first place. They will call Microsoft crap and then see Baloo do the same thing. Ubuntu (okay, it is Ubuntu) even sends your search data to some business partner. Akonadi is not all that great either and all the K..... I'm sorry, but to my opinion and impression and slight experience, they S. Everything that tries to use Akonadi I basically try to stay away from. It's just that it will uninstall KDE when you uninstall libakonadi. I put my hopes with Evolution but it's still not there, whatever ;-). Evolution, from what I've heard about, actually has an amazing backend that is just right. Self-developed and all. So I don't think you can really pin me on the Windows to Unix difference except that I don't buy into "read 100-page manuals before you can do anything". I mentioned before on the VIM mailing list. Even the help system is user hateful. I will not call it unfriendly. I will call it hateful. When ESC is the most dominant key, but F1 opens up a help screen that you have to escape from with :q (from what I know) -- ctrl-w-q is faster. It is not the most helpful thing. I open up help by accident so many times. Yes, keyboard with adjacent keys. Just one example. --------- I HAVE NEVER in my experience of using a computer used the F1 key on its own ------------ The only time when it was useful was with contextual help from some IDE. I have, in that distant past, always used some combination of alt-F1 or ctrl-F1 to open contextual helps. That was helpful. What person uses F1?????????????. In Windows it is the same (ha!). And Windows help takes so long to start, that everytime it happens you curse because you don't know how fast you can close it again. Yes I'll hear you say "but you can rebind the key". Jeez. Now I first have to learn how to use the help system, then I can use the help system to find the information I need on rebinding keys, then after a while when I understand it I can use the help system to turn off the help system. Great :D. If I need help, I will go to menu->help or I will search the web. I don't need a shortcut for that not-so-often-used functionality. It is contextual help that you want, not non-contextual. Anyway. I am just seeing that, as that Nathan wrote. Linux people are invested in things being HARD. They want things to be hard and to STAY hard. Why is that? It is past hurt. They too had to go through bagloads of pain to learn everything. Why shouldn't you?. They are of the opinion that their prized and hard-won position should not come without a cost or an effort. The status quo of things BEING hard has over the years turned into a perception that things HAVE TO be hard. That they, even more, SHOULD be hard. But this is not true. Things shouldn't be hard. It's just not true. Anyway thank you for the discussion. I am getting slightly ahead with shutting down my computer life. I am still retaining it, holding on to it. Making backups and all. Setting up incremental tar -g schemes and all. Rsyncing them to remote hosts that have 12 times more storage space than I have here. And all. Maybe one day I will delete everything. Months and months of work. Years and years of collection. I lost a whole bunch already anyway. It started I guess when Thunderbird cost me and lost me 3 months of email. Thunderbird is this nice application that has a corrupted storage "compress" algorithm that will just throw away email if there has been some slight corruption in its storage vaults. And then it will happily delete it from your remote IMAP server without notifying you that it's doing that. Real nice application, Thunderbird. Wish I could sue them. Anyway, I guess you'll see me for a short while more. Regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org