-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd wrote:
Pascal Bleser wrote:
Personally, I stick with smart because I like it better than yast2/zypp
and nobody prevent you from doing so, this is linux's choice :-)
Don't attend SLED/SLES marketing conferences, spend time with the people who use openSUSE. Since when is this novell-marketing-dept@opensuse.org ?
here, _you_ are kidding. if Novell wants to make some choices, do you think we won't be impacted with them ?
Of course we are. But it doesn't mean we can't object on it and push to have a better solution on openSUSE. They do what they want on SLES/SLED, but we do have a word to say about openSUSE -- our opinion, at the very least.
if Novell wants really to make zen they main product, I beg they will make also the zen-updater works, eventually revisiting it's specifications if necessary. In this respect it's good to have valuables remarks on this product. I never said to accept it without concern.
Note that the problem is really that it will never work fine with its current architecture. It's a level of abstraction no one needs _unless_ you buy ZenWorks licenses and use it to manage your park of servers and/or workstations. That's hardly the case for openSUSE users or if, at all, only a very small percentage. It probably makes sense on SLED though. And any level of abstraction is a potential source of issues. In the case of ZMD, it uses a lot of memory, misbehaves as a process (uses a lot of CPU, takes ages to "wake up", etc...) - well, I guess almost everyone who used ZMD knows what I'm talking about.
How is zen any "mainstream" ? It's broken and it is broken by design because the integration architecture with yast is sick.
cure it (not you, of course, it's Novell's works)
IMO the "cure" is simply the zypp backend.
I'm in no way Novell's (I was SuSE user before Novell know about it :-). I only think the main openSUSE sponsor wants to push a product and seems to be ready to spend money for that. I expect this to give results.
I'm usually fine with that _unless_ it sucks from a technical point of view. And ZMD does, definitely.
I don't think smart will gain users for openSUSE. What I like is Yast and I always liked the Yast package manager. I used Mandrake and didn't notice it to be faster than suse.
smart already has a lot of users on openSUSE.
whatever system is underlying should not be a problem
Sorry, that's wrong. What system is underlying is precisely the point. The yast2 package manager UI is fine, has a lot of options, all nice and well. It seriously lacks a good CLI interface though, something we had with y2pmsh and installation_sources. zypper (which directly builds upon zypp) is OK to add repositories (zypper sa URL) but doesn't cut it to install packages because the UI is really bare-bones -- at least atm. Hopefully more work will be put into zypper to give us a first-class CLI frontend, like apt, smart or yum. Using yast's ZMD backend and ZMD causes issues, so you can't say the underlying system shouldn't be a problem.
anyway, my personal concern is nor zen but YaST. Is there where a YaST smart module, situation would be entirely different, but is it to be any?
Ridiculous. Whatever your religious sales belief or your loyalty to Novell's SLED marketing powerpoint slides are, using smart on 10.1 is about having a package manager that *works*.
my yast package manager works nearly each day and it's default. It _was_ much too slow when 10.1 was released, but it's no more.
You probably never used apt or smart.
I know all the problems, this costed me one hour in a year... but why not working to fix them inspite of forking?
Fork ZMD ? yast2 ? You gotta be kidding. Vote to have the zypp-backend as default in yast2 for 10.3, that's what we should do.
is that smart? or are you changing position ?
If you don't even know the difference between zypp and smart, then I really wonder why you are so vocal about your opinion here. zypp is not smart: http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp http://en.opensuse.org/Understanding_zmd And this is what I called "sick" in my previous post: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Package-management-in-code10.png
Why isn't smart one of them ?
because you can (and did) write about smart on opensuse.org without any problem AFAIK, so why ask users to go on an other web site (YaOWS Yet an other Web Site ?)
Because that wiki page explains how to add the Packman and Guru repositories (in order to install full-fledged amarok, mplayer, etc...). That part may not be posted on opensuse.org
If it wasn't for smart, at least half of the people who tried 10.1 would have dropped SUSE and never look back.
your are kidding. of course if the first thing you do if making people changing for smart, all the people you know of use smart of go elsewhere :-)
You weren't on IRC when lots of people came whining about SUSE 10.1 sucking so bad because of yast2's package manager module. It was awful. If we hadn't recommended to use smart instead, those people would just have wiped SUSE and would never come back. Stop talking about things you have no idea of.
And as *active*, committed community members who help lots of people to use SUSE on IRC every single day, if we want to put a page about setting up smart and recommend using smart on 10.1 because we saved lots of people from the ZMD mess, then we just do so.
I also help a lot of people, but not on IRC. and if you want to have a "pascalbeseler.org" web site, it's your problem. I also have my own mediawiki, but I don't call it opensuse-community. I have also a fr.susewiki.org web site I stopped to work on opensuse.org as any body should do for the community, wherever possible...
opensuse-community.org is not "my" wiki
Oh really. I wonder what makes you think you've got a better clue than me wrt package managers, problems people ask for help on IRC and the technical architecture of the ZMD backend in yast2.
may you are not the only suse user in the world. This is at all ridiculous. I think you are in a bad mood these days :-(
Well, unqualified posts like yours do put me in a bad mood.
*gasp* I never "advertised it as being the only choice"
I quoted your own text : "If it wasn't for smart, at least half of the people who tried 10.1 would have dropped SUSE and never look back."
what is wrong with: http://en.opensuse.org/Using_10.1#Package_Management
please, just consider what makes openSUSE different from all other distros. It's mainly YaST. What other specific package do you see (considering sax2 is part of yaST)?
The quality standards of the distribution, the polished desktop, the highly qualified engineers who work on it (at least I can say so for the people in Nürnberg) and the good integration. YaST of course being a major asset, but not the package manager. The YaST package manager is one of the worst in my opinion.
so, I really think we first should work to make YaST better. Frankly, I don't see for now difference between patterns and the old YaST system (on a user point of view). I don't know really about zypp or zen. I was asked once: do you want to sync yast and zen a quoted "yes". I have no real problem with this.
so 10.1 works, even without smart, and I beg millions of people uses it that you will never see on IRC...
Ok, let me summarize: you just said you have no clue about ZMD nor zypp nor smart nor other package managers. Nor did you ever had to help those people who were about to ditch SUSE because the package manager sucked so bad on 10.1. Thanks for your enlightened, qualified opinion. - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFmswVr3NMWliFcXcRAjOFAJ0WeRl37gnX5vSjj+V0lbVzcFlRJQCeMN5z lAiWVfU2ZObTSk2d2s+66IA= =kDEs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org