Am Sat 07 Nov 2009 08:38:45 AM CET schrieb Kálmán Kéménczy :

I do understand that, but the bugs has not been corrected for the freeze. Another main issues is the change of the gtk-yast between RC1 and RC2 that we could not follow.

Yes, this is unfortunately, but not that serious (IMO). The default now is KDE, and we can fix the defect with an online update.

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But deadlines could have been better communicated/reminded I think - I fear I translated the release notes too late to make it on the media for offline installations :-/

AFAIK, we do not ship translations of the RNs on the media at all. They are always downloaded from the server (IIRC); maybe, this has been changed lately--someone probably needs to investigate.

I just can't believe that we have not learnt it from the previous releases. We walk in to the same trap again and again. I am sorry but I am just little bit unhappy about it. I feel I put as much effort that I could to l10n but it does not reflect in the final product.

For sure, I'm one(?) of the bottle necks. But with the build service (BS) all of you can prepare package updates and send submitreqs (sr) to the project maintainers. There is some basic documentation in the wiki. I admit, for soem packages that's not that easy, though. I also would not mind if others would help with merging and/or communicating dates to developers and translators. I probably can work again on translation issues on Monday. Cheers, Karl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/7 Kálmán Kéménczy :

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I do understand that, but the bugs has not been corrected for the freeze. Another main issues is the change of the gtk-yast between RC1 and RC2 that we could not follow.

Yes, this is unfortunately, but not that serious (IMO).  The default now is KDE, and we can fix the defect with an online update.

Yes, KDE is the default but we offer at least two windows manager in the install. It should not be the difference and the package manager is really one of the (in not THE) main component of the yast.

Yes, i tottaly agree with Kalman. I noticed that gtk software management in RC1 was fully translated and now, in RC2, some of buttons aren´t. And by the way, another translation bug still isn't fixed, which was filed before freezeing, 543745 - One-click install wizard not localized -- S pozdravom / Best regards, Rasto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

Kálmán Kéménczy writes:

After the code/feature freeze there is a translation phase, but there is no phase to fix translation issue on the developer side. IMHO this one is missing. Most of my bugs are minor from the developer view and for the whole project itself.

To avoid bad feelings again and again, we should publish and announce the translations two or four weeks after the English release (GA). This is, the GA most probably is 99% or more translated, but the user can expect us to provide translation improvements two or four weeks later. Delaying the GA for two or four weeks is not an option, and 1 additional week would not be enough time. I'm sure the majority of our openSUSE native speakers would understand such a release strategy. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

Lørdag den 7. november 2009 08:57:33 skrev Karl Eichwalder:

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But deadlines could have been better communicated/reminded I think - I fear I translated the release notes too late to make it on the media for offline installations :-/

AFAIK, we do not ship translations of the RNs on the media at all. They are always downloaded from the server (IIRC); maybe, this has been changed lately--someone probably needs to investigate.

Ahh. I needn't worry then :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-11-07 at 08:57 +0100, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

Am Sat 07 Nov 2009 08:38:45 AM CET schrieb Kálmán Kéménczy <>:

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I do understand that, but the bugs has not been corrected for the freeze. Another main issues is the change of the gtk-yast between RC1 and RC2 that we could not follow.

Yes, this is unfortunately, but not that serious (IMO). The default now is KDE, and we can fix the defect with an online update.

I was told that having KDE as the default would not bein demeaning for the rest. I find out that it is not so, as I feared. Bugs in gnome will now go unsolved. Nice. :-/

For sure, I'm one(?) of the bottle necks. But with the build service (BS) all of you can prepare package updates and send submitreqs (sr) to the project maintainers. There is some basic documentation in the wiki. I admit, for soem packages that's not that easy, though.

That is for those that know how. I will not touch things I know nothing about, and I may not have time (or inclination) to learn about. I'm not a dev. We translate, and that takes a good part of our time. We like to see that our effort was productive and useful. Seeing english text in parts we took our time to translate, it hurts a lot! - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkr1W+QACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VLZwCeKn9uDHOLFFh3R1Yj0uD0poRX 7BsAn2fyGKQHrTbYuFvKiQ6iBLSgBVcr =/v3C -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Absolutely. Translators work is definitely undervalued by now, cause it has some certain issues in the workflow that nobody is going to fix in the nearest future. Localization IS a hard work already, but we have to either duplicate our work, or not be able to see the result at all - and treating l10n bugs as minor doesn't help, really. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-11-08 at 16:14 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

On Saturday 07 November 2009 12:37:05 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Saturday, 2009-11-07 at 08:57 +0100, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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Yes, this is unfortunately, but not that serious (IMO). The default now is KDE, and we can fix the defect with an online update.

I was told that having KDE as the default would not bein demeaning for the rest. I find out that it is not so, as I feared. Bugs in gnome will now go unsolved. Nice. :-/

Stop that nonsense NOW! The reason yast2-gtk is untranslated is exactly that a bug with a high profile was fixed.

Karl said that it was not translated because it affected gnome and that is secondary to kde. That is what I understood. That if the bug had affected kde, you would have done something to repair the translation.

I have to ask myself again what some translators are up to: a good product or 100% in some statistics ;(

BOTH! It can't be a good translation if some programs are not complete. We did our job. It is not our fault. I'm very sorry if I'm harsh, but this thing has hurt my feelings :-/ - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkr3L18ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UCUQCdEIrRbVRXGFt90p9FaAZj19Gx 928AmQH1m/on7S+r1J51AaPwIae5d8Rm =j1UU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 07 November 2009 08:57:33 Karl Eichwalder wrote:

Yes, this is unfortunately, but not that serious (IMO). The default now is KDE, and we can fix the defect with an online update.

Both GNOME and KDE are first class citizens, so please treat them on the same level. We just switched a radio button and did not demote GNOME at all. Yes, we can fix many things with an online update - but we should still strive to have everything - especially our primary desktops - fully localized, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Am Sat 07 Nov 2009 09:03:23 PM CET schrieb Andreas Jaeger :

On Saturday 07 November 2009 08:57:33 Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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Yes, this is unfortunately, but not that serious (IMO). The default now is KDE, and we can fix the defect with an online update.

Both GNOME and KDE are first class citizens, so please treat them on the same level. We just switched a radio button and did not demote GNOME at all.

Yes, we can fix many things with an online update - but we should still strive to have everything - especially our primary desktops - fully localized,

Strong words, but sure, I'm also all for it, but the defect was detected just too late. Unfortunately, we did not notice that it was necessary to revert the gtk packager and that this means you would have to revert the POT file, too. That's the prize you must pay for agile programming ;) Anyway, since it is possible to fix it easily with an online update I did not block the release. Cheers, Karl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 08 November 2009 09:19:02 Kálmán Kéménczy wrote:

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Yes, we can fix many things with an online update - but we should still strive to have everything - especially our primary desktops - fully localized,

Strong words, but sure, I'm also all for it, but the defect was detected just too late. Unfortunately, we did not notice that it was necessary to revert the gtk packager and that this means you would have to revert the POT file, too.

Is it a failure or missing of the "quick emergency packet change" process? How could we prepare ourself to avoid that kind of issues in the future? Or is it was too spacial case? I really don't know how it goes.

As Karl said in several mails, we need people not just to care about statistics, but also about the coordination work and the packaging work. I mean translating is hard work, but the work is not done when it's commited to SVN. So I want people to step up and take responsibility for other languages too. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 08 November 2009 17:26:27 Kálmán Kéménczy wrote:

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Is it a failure or missing of the "quick emergency packet change" process? How could we prepare ourself to avoid that kind of issues in the future? Or is it was too spacial case? I really don't know how it goes.

As Karl said in several mails, we need people not just to care about statistics, but also about the coordination work and the packaging work. I mean translating is hard work, but the work is not done when it's commited to SVN.

So I want people to step up and take responsibility for other languages too.

I have asked several times, how can I/we help, I have posted several ideas, but you are the one who see the processes inside. Give us a clue what should we do to improve the process. I am more than happy if I could help but I should know the details or what kind of tasks should I/we do to improve this. That's why I have written my ideas but we should fit into the system/processes.

Most of us are *just* translators (not developers) and we do what we can: commit (sometimes this is much more than translation itself, because we have to know about po/pot, merging, svn, commit). But that's all what we know about openSUSE product translation process.

By the way, we are not talking about 100% of statistics, we are talking about 4 big button on the screen of the most used yast module which was already translated before. I do understand that we cannot do a thing now (for 11.2) I just want to find out how we could we handle this kind of situation next time.

In this particular case someone should have thought about it (forgive me, but I'm just too busy around release time to be that someone) and revert the po files against the latest submitted package too and remerge. The revert of yast2-gtk was really to go back to 11.1 code, so all translations are somewhere. Developers tend to ignore translations - and I like your ideas how to work around that fact. And honestly, I don't want people to understand the current process, I want some to change and define it. And your last mail makes perfect suggestions, even if someone still needs to put them into action - let me know if there is anything you need from me. Now is a good time to talk about changes to get 11.3 rolling. I did everything I could - this is the release with the largest gap between hard freeze and release and we saw a lot of minor translation fixed. And I even translated the download page - but the yast2 module was just a group screw up. The GNOME community wanted changes, the developer only managed very late to get them in and then people complained about them and they were reverted even later. But again: translations we can update, reverting the yast look & feel with an online update would have been pain - more pain than 4 buttons. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 2009-11-08 at 17:57 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Now is a good time to talk about changes to get 11.3 rolling. I did everything I could - this is the release with the largest gap between hard freeze and release and we saw a lot of minor translation fixed.

Simply add a string freeze at the very last, a period in which only translators can work and add changes. We translate whatever is missing, you issue a final release candidate, final polish, and then GM. The change was done for RC2, there was plenty of time between RC2 and GM, but still it wasn't done. This is no schedule problem, but a man power

On Sunday 08 November 2009 18:17:25 Carlos E. R. wrote: problem.

Shouldn't be that difficult... either SuSE/Novell wants a fully translated product, or they don't. And get commited to it.

SuSE/Novell does not care. openSUSE project might care - you seem to care.

If the developer community don't get serious on 111n, there is nothing we can do. And if they don't get serious, translators will go away.

This happens everywhere. And of course you can concentrate on the yast2-gtk incident, but in general you will notice that the translation freeze _was_ accepted. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

In this particular case someone should have thought about it (forgive me, but I'm just too busy around release time to be that someone) and revert the po files against the latest submitted package too and remerge. The revert of yast2-gtk was really to go back to 11.1 code, so all translations are somewhere.

I think we have to talk about the future and not about the past.

Developers tend to ignore translations - and I like your ideas how to work around that fact.

And honestly, I don't want people to understand the current process, I want some to change and define it. And your last mail makes perfect suggestions, even if someone still needs to put them into action - let me know if there is anything you need from me.

Thanks, I will ping you after the release and let's work on this.

Now is a good time to talk about changes to get 11.3 rolling. I did everything I could - this is the release with the largest gap between hard freeze and release and we saw a lot of minor translation fixed.

This is true! And I was really proud to the RC1...

And I even translated the download page - but the yast2 module was just a group screw up. The GNOME community wanted changes, the developer only managed very late to get them in and then people complained about them and they were reverted even later. But again: translations we can update, reverting the yast look & feel with an online update would have been pain - more pain than 4 buttons.

I believe that, but I hope you also understand our l10n view, this is our part, our enthusiasm, our child. Now I am getting optimistic. Let's celebrate the new release next/this week and start to work on the next one. thanks kalman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

Karl Eichwalder writes:

I probably can work again on translation issues on Monday.

Hi guys, I'm back at work. yast2-gtk is merged again and seems to require some translators' love. I tried to leverage the translations from the 11.1 branch, unfortunately without that much success. I hope I got everything right. In the context of https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=547075 I'll request a swampid and prepare an online update, probably at the end of this week. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org