[opensuse-translation] Steps for creating Spanish variants?

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Re: [opensuse-translation] Steps...

Javier Llorente

4 Sep 2015 4 Sep '15

19:59

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello, The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations into two variants: - - Castilian Spanish: es_ES (decided). I think we could start with this one. - - Latin American Spanish: es_LAT or a specific one, such es_AR (to be decided by them). What are the next steps? Greetings, - -- Javier Llorente *Thread: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation-es/2015-08/msg00000.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlXp+DsACgkQdV3zWWOPFxTvLQCcDUN0o1kDxKtx232ykUvLj1yn WDQAmgMLVZUun6UOggY6nSQmz9DTVz5y =W+NR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

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Carlos E. R.

5 Sep 5 Sep

01:21

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-04 21:59, Javier Llorente wrote:

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Hello,

The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations into two variants:

¡FALSE! We have not decided such a thing. :-/ - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXqQ7IACgkQja8UbcUWM1yavwD/fr6Y6uGSH4vZ2VFtec2s6LyF W7y1Q1Ul4MTl0T956ZMA+QH/HBMlAEzT6lB/oa3Ubp5/O54vkH0+pSMix2PUgI92 =NZVS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Javier Llorente

09:50

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 05/09/15 03:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2015-09-04 21:59, Javier Llorente wrote:

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Hello,

...
The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations into two variants:

¡FALSE!

We have not decided such a thing.

:-/

We (all the active translators) have voted, haven't we? Please don't use caps and be a bit more verbose next time. Greetings, - -- Javier Llorente -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlXquuIACgkQdV3zWWOPFxQBzACfS0hJvTcL8a3ojwAFcs6Mc1Tg lIkAn1vh48sy9y/81jqkSLSmbbnn69tt =4Zte -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

6 Sep 6 Sep

19:57

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-05 11:50, Javier Llorente wrote:

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On 05/09/15 03:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2015-09-04 21:59, Javier Llorente wrote:

...
Hello,

...
...
The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations into two variants:

...
¡FALSE!

...
We have not decided such a thing.

...
:-/

We (all the active translators) have voted, haven't we? Please don't use caps and be a bit more verbose next time.

I'm angry, so I use CAPS. Gabriel and me are the coordinators, so you should have contacted us to do the official request. WE should have been the ones to announce a decision. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXsmsYACgkQja8UbcUWM1wPWAD/Ql/a6cy+wrmoneD87gnsqqHs 3F3WWJVeRme2rG3/PpIA/i66n7URK9mIOSW7DBTcQEfyoGa0vqm7wHBvVqSZvPBl =n+OM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Javier Llorente

7 Sep 7 Sep

08:03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/09/15 21:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2015-09-05 11:50, Javier Llorente wrote:

...
On 05/09/15 03:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 2015-09-04 21:59, Javier Llorente wrote:

...
Hello,

...
...
...
The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations into two variants:

...
...
¡FALSE!

...
...
We have not decided such a thing.

...
...
:-/

...
We (all the active translators) have voted, haven't we? Please don't use caps and be a bit more verbose next time.

I'm angry, so I use CAPS.

Gabriel and me are the coordinators, so you should have contacted us to do the official request. WE should have been the ones to announce a decision.

Thanks for being more verbose. But still, there's no reason to shout :P No one said anything in several weeks. Cheers, - -- Javier Llorente -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlXtROYACgkQdV3zWWOPFxRc8QCePV7YWsy0Q/RKdtnd94YOjSTu IiQAoItMtaRUYtGE6wRproC2RxjAeeHR =Cckb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Karl Ove Hufthammer

6 Sep 6 Sep

20:14

Den 04. sep. 2015 21:59, Javier Llorente skreiv:

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The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations into two variants:

- - Castilian Spanish: es_ES (decided). I think we could start with this one. - - Latin American Spanish: es_LAT or a specific one, such es_AR (to be decided by them).

This decision doesn’t make sense. There is no es_LAT locale, and it’s *not even a syntactically valid* locale code (ref. BCP 47). I’m not sure exactly what es_LAT is supposed to cover, but it seems to me that es_419 would be the appropriate locale code: http://www.localeplanet.com/icu/es-419/index.html -- Karl Ove Hufthammer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Alexander Melentev

20:48

...

Den 04. sep. 2015 21:59, Javier Llorente skreiv:

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The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations into two variants:

- - Castilian Spanish: es_ES (decided). I think we could start with this one. - - Latin American Spanish: es_LAT or a specific one, such es_AR (to be decided by them).

The only action that makes sense now is renaming current "es" to "es_ES" just to stress out this is for metropolian Spanish. If any other volunteer for specific region will show up later, then another folder should be created with proper locale name.

-- Regards, Minton. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Karl Eichwalder

7 Sep 7 Sep

06:03

I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a translation of the variant is not available. -- Karl EICHWALDER -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:52

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-07 08:03, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a translation of the variant is not available.

And how would anybody decide which variant? The differences between South/Central American Spanish variants are quite large, same as with es_ES. And we don't have those resources. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXtbHsACgkQja8UbcUWM1zrrwD9Hx8Bn0WyYIxtFw3LXFDEhRqk 6HwATYR/Ph67GcH/VCsA+gOu2TbdRVIEl7qtZFHAInkc8mOugoht+o2Kkpa03m36 =Z24f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Karl Eichwalder

12:22

"Carlos E. R." writes:

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On 2015-09-07 08:03, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a translation of the variant is not available.

And how would anybody decide which variant?

I'd say the one who provides the translation -- in the open source context, that's the only way that could work.

...

The differences between South/Central American Spanish variants are quite large, same as with es_ES. And we don't have those resources.

I'd pick one or two of the bigger Countries (AR or MX). Of course, if a translator from, say, CR would not feel comfortable neither with AR nor MX, it would be fine to start with es_CR (in addition to plain and hopefully very international "es"). This all depends on those who actually want to do translations. I would not create SVN directories "in advance". -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE Linux GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

12:51

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-07 14:22, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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"Carlos E. R." writes:

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On 2015-09-07 08:03, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a translation of the variant is not available.

And how would anybody decide which variant?

I'd say the one who provides the translation -- in the open source context, that's the only way that could work.

Till now, the consensus was to provide a single translation using language accepted by all. But some of the new translators do not accept this agreement and want to split the Spain variant. This being so, I'm considering to quit. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXtiDsACgkQja8UbcUWM1x3BQEAk6s3zpxp0ZmdU1HNBHIeplx0 nT00afPO8a4TLPkQPc8BAJ0HXK213udCtx8YWfn2sSdYjvQNInyN2hzL8PiGiEeS =08+H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Karl Eichwalder

14:49

"Carlos E. R." writes:

...

Till now, the consensus was to provide a single translation using language accepted by all. But some of the new translators do not accept this agreement and want to split the Spain variant.

I do not see why we could not keep "es" as-is and add other variants as needed or as provided. Once more translations are available, we'd have to discuss how to enable them in the system. Here in Germany we added one or two flavors some time ago (esp. "nds"), but in written context and especially as a computer language they are not used by native speakers. Bavarian or "Austrian" ( ;-) ) is widely used, but as a GUI language is would be confusing; of course, some of the vocabulary would make sense (e.g., "Jänner" instead of "Januar"). Spanish issues have to be decided by Spanish native speakers. But I'd recommend to be as conservative as possible. With those changes, you quickly can do more harm than good. Users are probably used to the state of the art and "happy" with it (even if some term are "foreign"). -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE Linux GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:10

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-07 16:49, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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"Carlos E. R." <> writes:

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Till now, the consensus was to provide a single translation using language accepted by all. But some of the new translators do not accept this agreement and want to split the Spain variant.

I do not see why we could not keep "es" as-is and add other variants as needed or as provided. Once more translations are available, we'd have to discuss how to enable them in the system.

Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till now was the generic one, and now would be the specific for Spain.

...

Spanish issues have to be decided by Spanish native speakers. But I'd recommend to be as conservative as possible. With those changes, you quickly can do more harm than good. Users are probably used to the state of the art and "happy" with it (even if some term are "foreign").

I agree. :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXtxQkACgkQja8UbcUWM1ze8wD+LnvLyrNpMLDh9XXYpKoFUrW/ V2d3QLDPn+y6MbrszUQA/ivO3owEtnepw+uV0Vig49M/rL9q1QcnF+Uq4qDrLho2 =GT2n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Karl Ove Hufthammer

9 Sep 9 Sep

17:01

Den 07. sep. 2015 19:10, Carlos E. R. skreiv:

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Till now, the consensus was to provide a single translation using language accepted by all. But some of the new translators do not accept this agreement and want to split the Spain variant.

I do not see why we could not keep "es" as-is and add other variants as needed or as provided. Once more translations are available, we'd have to discuss how to enable them in the system. Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till now was the generic one, and now would be the specific for Spain.

Am I correct in assuming that the current translation is in what’s sometimes called ‘neutral Spanish’ or ‘Standard Spanish’? See http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/what-is-neutral-spanish.aspx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish For example, if it actively tries to avoid using words and expression only used in certain Spanish-speaking countries (e.g. Spain), plain ‘es’ is certainly the right language code, and the translation would be appropriate for many es_* locales. But if the current translation instead uses words, expression and terminology specific to Spain, ‘es_ES’ is the right language code, and the translation files should be renamed. (Note that this doesn’t stop people in other locales using this translation if they want, e.g., by setting the LANGUAGE variable.) -- Karl Ove Hufthammer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

17:39

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-09 19:01, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:

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Den 07. sep. 2015 19:10, Carlos E. R. skreiv:

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Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till now was the generic one, and now would be the specific for Spain.

Am I correct in assuming that the current translation is in what’s sometimes called ‘neutral Spanish’ or ‘Standard Spanish’? See

http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/what-is-neutral-spanish.aspx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish

I was not aware of the definition, but yes, indeed, that was our goal when we started several years ago.

...

For example, if it actively tries to avoid using words and expression only used in certain Spanish-speaking countries (e.g. Spain), plain ‘es’ is certainly the right language code, and the translation would be appropriate for many es_* locales.

Well, yes. The current translation should be 'es', and the new branch would be "es_ES". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXwbtAACgkQja8UbcUWM1ycZwD+INZ0jKj8lItYxrBQoH3E2ucc 6umtV0ihLsxaaNsHToMA/09244HkfuVbxPOvkvNGktHpMzu1sLNCZx61lrmX0iO0 =HU1D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Javier Llorente

10 Sep 10 Sep

20:44

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/09/15 19:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2015-09-09 19:01, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:

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Den 07. sep. 2015 19:10, Carlos E. R. skreiv:

...
...
Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till now was the generic one, and now would be the specific for Spain.

...
Am I correct in assuming that the current translation is in what’s sometimes called ‘neutral Spanish’ or ‘Standard Spanish’? See

...
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/what-is-neutral-spanish.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish

I was not aware of the definition, but yes, indeed, that was our goal when we started several years ago.

...
For example, if it actively tries to avoid using words and expression only used in certain Spanish-speaking countries (e.g. Spain), plain ‘es’ is certainly the right language code, and the translation would be appropriate for many es_* locales.

Well, yes. The current translation should be 'es', and the new branch would be "es_ES".

I think it's a good option; "es" for those who want to keep using the same translation style and "es_ES" for those who want to translate it into Castilian Spanish. We would need to use an extra word on menus; Spanish (neutral), Spanish (Spain) or Neutral Spanish, Castilian Spanish, for example. Greetings, - -- Javier Llorente -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlXx65gACgkQdV3zWWOPFxRIxwCfVVdICjGGaT0VVAbvEHGO1R8u y70An0mfruGxV8R0sdvV1R+4RkPzYrr3 =gugE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Javier Llorente

20:58

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/09/15 22:44, Javier Llorente wrote:

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On 09/09/15 19:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2015-09-09 19:01, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:

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Den 07. sep. 2015 19:10, Carlos E. R. skreiv:

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...
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Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till now was the generic one, and now would be the specific for Spain.

...
...
Am I correct in assuming that the current translation is in what’s sometimes called ‘neutral Spanish’ or ‘Standard Spanish’? See

...
...
http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/what-is-neutral-spanish.aspx

...
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish

...
I was not aware of the definition, but yes, indeed, that was our goal when we started several years ago.

...
...
For example, if it actively tries to avoid using words and expression only used in certain Spanish-speaking countries (e.g. Spain), plain ‘es’ is certainly the right language code, and the translation would be appropriate for many es_* locales.

...
Well, yes. The current translation should be 'es', and the new branch would be "es_ES".

I think it's a good option; "es" for those who want to keep using the same translation style and "es_ES" for those who want to translate it into Castilian Spanish. We would need to use an extra word on menus; Spanish (neutral), Spanish (Spain) or Neutral Spanish, Castilian Spanish, for example.

That said, I think that "es" is going to end up being "neutral" Latin American Spanish, since I don't think that many European Spanish translators would translate the distribution into "neutral Spanish" having their own variant, Castilian Spanish. "International Spanish" is a better choice for "es", isn't it? Greetings, - -- Javier Llorente -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlXx7tsACgkQdV3zWWOPFxThbwCghPUNgXwhc2ros4vD23z7XlRz I+sAnArOoqypovIR7rd2OZLptUkHhjru =X8GT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:29

On 2015-09-10 22:58, Javier Llorente wrote:

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That said, I think that "es" is going to end up being "neutral" Latin American Spanish, since I don't think that many European Spanish translators would translate the distribution into "neutral Spanish" having their own variant, Castilian Spanish. "International Spanish" is a better choice for "es", isn't it?

I would contribute to the "es", neutral, variant. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Javier Llorente

7 Sep 7 Sep

14:32

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/09/15 08:03, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

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I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a translation of the variant is not available.

Another option could be making "es" a symlink to "es_ES", for instance (as a fallback). Greetings, - -- Javier Llorente -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlXtoBsACgkQdV3zWWOPFxT7+wCfZPh+6zXRAIEHtRG61x2+RMAF 6VYAn1qWj7UhRsg3kfRGihJ+NqIPHthZ =UROA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Vojtěch Zeisek

8 Sep 8 Sep

07:47

Hi Dne Pá 4. září 2015 21:59:55, Javier Llorente napsal(a):

...

The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations into two variants:

- Castilian Spanish: es_ES (decided). I think we could start with this one. - Latin American Spanish: es_LAT or a specific one, such es_AR (to be decided by them).

My knowledge of Spanish is not great, but I'm learning Castilian variant and in every South American country I experienced little bit different language. Of course, I don't know how big differences are related to IT. It seems to me that variability between any two South American Spanish-speaking countries is of comparable degree of magnitude as between Spain and any South American Spanish-speaking country. So that es_LAT seems useless for me. And what about Spanish variant used in Philippines? :-) But of course, this is fully decision of Spanish team... But when it is discussed here... Sincerely, Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

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participants (7)

Alexander Melentev
Carlos E. R.
Javier Llorente
Karl Eichwalder
Karl Eichwalder
Karl Ove Hufthammer
Vojtěch Zeisek