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Hi, in the galician translation team we are suffering some indiscriminated merges that merge in translations that are outdated, incorrect, that don't match with the original and that are not in galician.

But the worst part is that the merged translations are not marked as fuzzy so we have to correct and change the translations over and over. It is a hard, repetitive and unnecessary work, and we are losing translators because of that!

So, please make the merges go fuzzied or completely disable the merges. Preferably the first one, because we want suggestions, not erroneous automatic translations.

Just to know, these merges applied only to the update-destkop* files, or to any other? If the first, our translations are being replaced by upstream ones.

I'll ask. Are in upstream merging without marking as fuzzy? Bye, Leandro Regueiro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

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I'll ask. Are in upstream merging without marking as fuzzy?

No, we are (openSUSE). The script that creates the update-desktop files merge our translations replacing it with upstream ones. Conflicts are saved in update-desktop-files-conflicts, though the changes are not marked as fuzzy.

The merge always have to put the suggestions as fuzzy. If they are correct suggestions the translations will unfuzzy them in a second, but finding and correcting the incorrect translations introduced by indiscriminated merges is very tiring because you have to check all the translations, and having a list on a different file doesn't is very helpful since the entire situation could easily be avoided.

As far as I remember it was decided (don't know by who), that if something is incorrect it should be corrected upstream.

That makes no sense. If the file is translated in upstream, why do you have also to translate it in openSuse? And between projects a different terminology could be used, so you have to change the translations all the days.

We (the spanish team) are considering to ignores this files because every merge cause too much work for us.

We must go to the root of the problem, the merges should be done marking as fuzzy the suggestions, and not replacing correct translations and introducing incorrect ones. If this situation continues that way, probably in few months there won't be no translators for galician, and we are five or six right now. So, please, fix that!! It couldn't be so hard to solve. Bye, Leandro Regueiro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

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I'll ask. Are in upstream merging without marking as fuzzy?

No, we are (openSUSE). The script that creates the update-desktop files merge our translations replacing it with upstream ones. Conflicts are saved in update-desktop-files-conflicts, though the changes are not marked as fuzzy.

The merge always have to put the suggestions as fuzzy. If they are correct suggestions the translations will unfuzzy them in a second, but finding and correcting the incorrect translations introduced by indiscriminated merges is very tiring because you have to check all the translations, and having a list on a different file doesn't is very helpful since the entire situation could easily be avoided.

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As far as I remember it was decided (don't know by who), that if something is incorrect it should be corrected upstream.

That makes no sense. If the file is translated in upstream, why do you have also to translate it in openSuse? And between projects a different terminology could be used, so you have to change the translations all the days.

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We (the spanish team) are considering to ignores this files because every merge cause too much work for us.

We must go to the root of the problem, the merges should be done marking as fuzzy the suggestions, and not replacing correct translations and introducing incorrect ones.

If this situation continues that way, probably in few months there won't be no translators for galician, and we are five or six right now.

So, please, fix that!! It couldn't be so hard to solve.

Because the upstream teams don't translate 100% of the apps which are included in openSUSE. One example is the KDE playground apps which the translations in upstream is not that necessary nor stimulated. There are exceptions like the knm4, etc.

OK, it is not translated on upstream, then go translate on upstream, not here. Here is how we usually do. Doing this way is duplicating work.

I prefer using upstream translations were they exist as another team (upstream) took care of it (if its wrong I make the suggestion to correct upstream also with the help of u-d-f-conflicts) and to not lose the different terminology that upstream projects use (to avoid different terminology in the same project between distros)

Some weeks ago I filled a bug about something similar (u-d-f using fallback language sometimes) and coolo find out that there is a bug in KDE upstream as he reported in this mailling list.

If I remember correctly it was supposed that sometime in the translation round the script will change to not change the strings with upstream translations to give us time to correct and translate the missing ones, which did not occur yet and probably will not.

I really think that using merges is useful, but merging without marking the suggestions as fuzzy is a very bad idea. It is worse that not merging, because you have to work twice. Bye, Leandro Regueiro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

The fact that life is not always fair does not mean we shouldn't try to fix it. Isn't the whole idea of this list to help community-driven translation team and make their life better? =) I totally agree with Leandro that these merges are a real problem that needs a solution. I guess that DMP (decision making person) is not a translator himself, cause otherwise he would understand what it's like to look thousands of lines of your hard work on u-d-f going away with the next 'svn update'. No way somebody could think it is a pleasure of any kind... Anyway, I think that fuzziing merged upstream translations will not really solve the problem, cause team's translation is nevertheless destroyed at this point (but if there's no other option it should be done). Currently, u-d-f produce a lot of hard but unneeded and useless work for translators. I think that importance of these files should be rethinked, cause in case of total preferring of upstream translations they don't make any sense. If there is a reason for them to stay then all files receiving upstream translations should at least be separated to their own branch 'upstream' or 'desktop' or whatever, cause they require a totally different workflow and cooperation with upstream translation team. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

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I really think that using merges is useful, but merging without marking the suggestions as fuzzy is a very bad idea. It is worse that not merging, because you have to work twice.

Officially, the upstream translation supersedes our own translation, even if the one upstream is incorrect. Thus, they must not be marked fuzzy, because those "are" the correct translations.

If they are not, fill bugs upstream...

OK, you are saying to me "translate the files in upstream". That is right. It makes a lot of sense, but I ask you, why are those files here if we shouldn't translate that files here?? Maybe someone will say, because we need the files translated. Then do as other distros. For example in Mandriva they use a program from Fedora. They extended some things in the program so there are new strings to translate, but they didn't put the whole file (their strings and the original strings) for translating in their translation project; what they did is to put their strings for translating in Mandriva, and the others you should go to Fedora. When a new release is going to be published, the merge the two files (Fedora one and Mandriva one) and the get the whole translation file.

Otherwise, refuse to translate those files. This is what I recommend, and I think we do in the Spanish list, not translate the update-destkop* files. It is a waste of time and resources.

Yes, we refuse, but not translating these files doesn't help to get translated openSuse. And if the files are here the translators would want to translate them, and then you say them that they shouldn't, and they say this make nonsense, and they frustrate themselves and go to other project where the translation is easiest and their work is more valuated. Right now the only reason why we translate openSuse to galician is that our government put it on the schools. And most of the translators are teachers that hope to help with the translation and get all translated. But these things make it harder to convince them, because they see that the situation makes no sense. Bye, Leandro Regueiro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org

Confirmed, the problems are focused on the update-desktop* mainly.

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I really think that using merges is useful, but merging without marking the suggestions as fuzzy is a very bad idea. It is worse that not merging, because you have to work twice.

Officially, the upstream translation supersedes our own translation, even if the one upstream is incorrect. Thus, they must not be marked fuzzy, because those "are" the correct translations.

If they are not, fill bugs upstream...

OK, you are saying to me "translate the files in upstream". That is right. It makes a lot of sense, but I ask you, why are those files here if we shouldn't translate that files here??

I don't really know. Perhaps because they are incompletely translated.

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Maybe someone will say, because we need the files translated. Then do as other distros. For example in Mandriva they use a program from Fedora. They extended some things in the program so there are new strings to translate, but they didn't put the whole file (their strings and the original strings) for translating in their translation project; what they did is to put their strings for translating in Mandriva, and the others you should go to Fedora. When a new release is going to be published, the merge the two files (Fedora one and Mandriva one) and the get the whole translation file.

That would be a way.

It is the way. Admins, wipe out these files, and don't make us translating them again if it is supposed that the translation of those files is done in upstream.

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Otherwise, refuse to translate those files. This is what I recommend, and I think we do in the Spanish list, not translate the update-destkop* files. It is a waste of time and resources.

Yes, we refuse, but not translating these files doesn't help to get translated openSuse. And if the files are here the translators would want to translate them, and then you say them that they shouldn't, and they say this make nonsense, and they frustrate themselves and go to other project where the translation is easiest and their work is more valuated.

Well, I'm simply explaining what we do, because we have found the same problems you are finding, and we gave up. I can't propose a solution.

<http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-translation-es/2009-09/msg00134.html>

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Right now the only reason why we translate openSuse to galician is that our government put it on the schools. And most of the translators are teachers that hope to help with the translation and get all translated. But these things make it harder to convince them, because they see that the situation makes no sense.

It is just a few files that are affected: the lcn/update-desktop-files*, and the packages sub-branch. The rest are fine. I don't see why a few bad files can affect you that much. There is a lot more that you can translate.

Otherwise, somebody at SUSE has to make the decission to merge, not to merge the po files (just the pot files), mark them as fuzzy, or leave the decission to each team. As it is now, it is a source of frustration.

Or, you can take matters on your own hands, and revert the merge in the svn >:-)

Or remove the files. No files no problems :) Bye, Leandro Regueiro -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-translation+help@opensuse.org