Re: [opensuse-translation] openSUSE Weblate
Hi all, I know I said on the parallel thread in -project that I want to keep a respectful distance and let the open issues being discussed be resolved by the contributors involved However, there is something I see in this thread which concerns me Carlos E.R. wrote
No, AFAIK he is not in the translation team. Not one of us. He is in suse. If he were one of us, he would at least have told us what was going on.
This sort of divisive mindset and commentary is totally unacceptable. The people working on Weblate are contributors, just like you and the rest of *us*. They are contributing proposed tooling and processes to improve things for the entire project, not just the subscribers to this list. There might be disagreements about details, but the way to deal with that is to discuss those issues respectfully and professionally. Engage on and discuss the issues and the practicalities, not whether or not they have a right to do something - you have to be prepared for unexpected contributions from unexpected sources, without it no open project has much of a long term future. Using divisive terms like 'us' and 'them', 'suse' and 'community', and 'not one of us' directly discourages these kind of new contributions, which I consider a major threat to the long term viability and vitality of this project. If you want to continue down that path, I want you to consider following through with your threats and ceasing your contribution to this project. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-12 11:20, Richard Brown wrote: ...
Using divisive terms like 'us' and 'them', 'suse' and 'community', and 'not one of us' directly discourages these kind of new contributions, which I consider a major threat to the long term viability and vitality of this project.
It is "them" who is discouraging "us", by imposing things on us without even talking to "us". You are not helping :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAlYbsd8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WKTgCYqx8fU7B2FGpB5hwMvqlcdtv6 oACfc2I/qmDfmSB1ygKl89EWGJsWRIQ= =KcJl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On 12 October 2015 at 15:13, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
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On 2015-10-12 11:20, Richard Brown wrote:
...
Using divisive terms like 'us' and 'them', 'suse' and 'community', and 'not one of us' directly discourages these kind of new contributions, which I consider a major threat to the long term viability and vitality of this project.
It is "them" who is discouraging "us", by imposing things on us without even talking to "us".
You are not helping :-(
Did you seriously just reply to my call to stop thinking in terms of 'them' vs 'us' with "It's not 'us', it's 'them'!" Come on Carlos, don't be silly. Take a step back and realise that this situation is an opportunity to address issues that are in need of addressing Just 12 days ago you posted a dramatic mail to the -factory mailinglist making it clear that Leap was not translated, Tumbleweed has barely any http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-09/msg00777.html When I contacted you privately to suggest that you could help organise a solution to that problem you placed the finger of blame firmly at a 'structural and manpower problem' that was 'further up from us' Now, by co-incidence and luck, you have a possible solution placed in front of you, from that very 'further up' that you blame While not perfect, Weblate seeks to address both the structural and manpower problems that we're facing..and you object rather than embrace the opportunity? You can't have things both ways. Either the translation teams old methods are fine and perfect, in which case you were talking nonsense two weeks ago, or the situation is as dire as you made out, in which case I think you should be grateful of all the help you can get from wherever it is coming from and dive in with both feet first into any possible solution. Sure, it requires a change of methods and mindset - but that should be expected, the old methods and mindset weren't working..that much you made clear 12 days ago.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-12 17:28, Richard Brown wrote:
On 12 October 2015 at 15:13, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
It is "them" who is discouraging "us", by imposing things on us without even talking to "us".
You are not helping :-(
Did you seriously just reply to my call to stop thinking in terms of 'them' vs 'us' with "It's not 'us', it's 'them'!"
You have a you vs us the instant that a group (with suse addresses) implement huge changes to things without talking with the rest, that happen to have outside addresses.
Come on Carlos, don't be silly.
Take a step back and realise that this situation is an opportunity to address issues that are in need of addressing
Just 12 days ago you posted a dramatic mail to the -factory mailinglist making it clear that Leap was not translated, Tumbleweed has barely any
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-09/msg00777.html
When I contacted you privately to suggest that you could help organise a solution to that problem you placed the finger of blame firmly at a 'structural and manpower problem' that was 'further up from us'
Now, by co-incidence and luck, you have a possible solution placed in front of you, from that very 'further up' that you blame While not perfect, Weblate seeks to address both the structural and manpower problems that we're facing..and you object rather than embrace the opportunity?
No, it can not address our problems when it was implemented even without telling us! And don't tell me it was just a test, not ready for deployment, because we found it just by chance, because it was being deployed, with real files, instead of setting up a mockup in which to test it without threading on anyone toes, and when ready, asking people to try it out and comment.
You can't have things both ways. Either the translation teams old methods are fine and perfect, in which case you were talking nonsense two weeks ago, or the situation is as dire as you made out, in which case I think you should be grateful of all the help you can get from wherever it is coming from and dive in with both feet first into any possible solution.
Sure, it requires a change of methods and mindset - but that should be expected, the old methods and mindset weren't working..that much you made clear 12 days ago..
They were not working because the developers were not doing their part. So, they are not happy and they change it, good, but destroying our side of the system, the side that was working correctly, bad. The post from Karl on the project mail list explains it much better that I can do. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYcPHoACgkQja8UbcUWM1z/FQD+K7IJeHhQpIlTWqimnzgicHro 6ibp579YcSzwrnmThDoA/3rHEO1sR9/DcO8A5tpYmZh6xsi2DCjLiXM8qbo4LO50 =rg2e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-12 17:28, Richard Brown wrote:
On 12 October 2015 at 15:13, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
On 2015-10-12 11:20, Richard Brown wrote:
Just 12 days ago you posted a dramatic mail to the -factory mailinglist making it clear that Leap was not translated, Tumbleweed has barely any
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-09/msg00777.html
When I contacted you privately to suggest that you could help organise a solution to that problem you placed the finger of blame firmly at a 'structural and manpower problem' that was 'further up from us'
Now, by co-incidence and luck, you have a possible solution placed in front of you, from that very 'further up' that you blame While not perfect, Weblate seeks to address both the structural and manpower problems that we're facing..and you object rather than embrace the opportunity?
I will clarify this a bit, for the benefit of other readers, as it refers to an off-list conversation. Richard basically proposed me to do the job that Karl Eichwalder does, which as many people here know, is not possible for me to do. Thus his hints that it is my fault that Leap is not translated. :-} - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYdFwEACgkQja8UbcUWM1xxfAEAmnDXiF2RphThut5F9dhWo42c SOtS10CTk2b1vPK4m+4A/jDcD9uigNl30E+AEAJ35B9erd1jlB7gUVnEPEic5owA =iGbX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On 13 October 2015 at 16:36, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
I will clarify this a bit, for the benefit of other readers, as it refers to an off-list conversation.
Richard basically proposed me to do the job that Karl Eichwalder does, which as many people here know, is not possible for me to do.
That's one heck of an exaggeration Once you explained to me what Karl Eichwalder does and that he was asking for help, I suggested you could do that.. my exact words were "well like Karl Eichwalder says..someone needs to sort it out... why dont you?" To which you replied the following "I can't. I don't know how to do it, I don't have the knowledge nor the contacs (he is a SUSE employee). It is a complex task he does, and nobody knows how to do it, apparently." In response, I said "So, ask him to teach you? You know more about the process than I do..you've been able to explain it to me well enough for me to be reasonably confident few other people will have the good base knowledge to know how it all ties together.. I think you should really push yourself to try and help the project out in this way..you care about translations, we need someone to do it, you know more about it than most, you care about it more than most, so do something about it.." That is not suggesting you do Karl's job, but that you step up and help find a solution for the project that you care about And I don't, EVER, buy the 'I don't know how to do it' argument. Everything can be learned. The question is whether you're willing to do so.
Thus his hints that it is my fault that Leap is not translated. :-}
That also is an exaggeration. I just claim that your credibility in seeking a resolution is greatly diminished by your history of being very vocal on these topics but not taking the opportunities available to you to do something about it. Lead, follow, or get out of the way You declined an opportunity to learn and lead the translations of Project in a direction you wish You seem to be greatly resistant to this opportunity to follow others who ARE trying to address the issues and get Leap and Tumbleweed translated So, I think you should get out of the way. Sure, you disagree with the people who are stepping up to do Weblate, but they're doing work, you are just telling everyone that everything is impossible but you won't do anything about it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. - 15:13 12.10.15 wrote:
On 2015-10-12 11:20, Richard Brown wrote:
...
Using divisive terms like 'us' and 'them', 'suse' and 'community', and 'not one of us' directly discourages these kind of new contributions, which I consider a major threat to the long term viability and vitality of this project.
It is "them" who is discouraging "us", by imposing things on us without even talking to "us".
AFAIK from what I saw "they" are trying to improve current situation. "They" felt they needed to fix few more bugs in demo before letting people test it (so people wouldn't discard the idea just because of few bugs) and now we have a situation where people are complaining that they weren't informed yet and that the solution is not perfect and bug-free yet and that it is not documented and polished yet. Two years ago when it was proposed only, people complained that they don't know Weblate and can't imagine how it would work and would need to see it. So can't blame people who went extra mile and tried to prepare demo to let others to test it and see for themselves how it works. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-12 20:17, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 15:13 12.10.15 wrote:
On 2015-10-12 11:20, Richard Brown wrote:
So can't blame people who went extra mile and tried to prepare demo to let others to test it and see for themselves how it works.
A demo is prepared without touching the current work of others. You copy it elsewhere, and work on the copy, not on the real files. How can you think we would not be disturbed when we found out that our files had been removed? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYcOMgACgkQja8UbcUWM1xCgAD+J2XzUzsODXZCxMEVoF44T/zu SPsm9N2X9kfN/sGzSikA/joUvwEcwChYyVMh8TDEkwkpbbJuUCMahXpSP1ChcHcO =NEy/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-12 11:20, Richard Brown wrote:
If you want to continue down that path, I want you to consider following through with your threats and ceasing your contribution to this project.
Oh, by the way: it is no threat. It is technical impossibility to continue translating. And I'm not the only one, but simply the one that expresses his thoughts more bluntly. I'm Spanish, after all. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYbs0YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W/HACfZElPkTe0ZvBu4+XhfMCxh1CU TQkAnjv6i7KAPgSPoTBkbgOom5phSrXQ =ivSw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
participants (3)
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Carlos E. R. -
Michal Hrusecky -
Richard Brown