Den 10. okt. 2015 13:47, Carlos E. R. skreiv:

On 2015-10-10 08:40, Ferdinand Galko wrote:

...

...

Can somebody please explain why was some translations (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate? What does this mean for us? Huh? Where do you see that? Link, further info?

For example here: https://svn.opensuse.org/svn/opensuse-i18n/trunk/lcn/50-pot/snapper.pot.migr... -- Karl Ove Hufthammer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-10 14:00, Andrea Turrini wrote:

On 10/10/15 19:47, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Huh? Where do you see that? Link, further info?

In the svn log of lcn/50-pot, you find entries like:

Migrate trunk translation of RELEASE-NOTES-openSUSE to http://l10n.opensuse.org/

and correspondingly all RELEASE-NOTES-openSUSE.xx.po files have been deleted. This happened to multiple files in 50-pot.

l10n.opensuse.org/ hosts an instance of Weblate.

Oh, my :-/ Who decided this? Well, this kills my further contribution as translator. I will never work on translations using a web tool. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYZBvAACgkQja8UbcUWM1wMPAEAjQhZ4cjmvHygi7gFPFzfAGmc 5b3WOOqlG5zU8UqJM7ABAJ1in2bWb9396xU30OmmS/o3Keu235YK3AM9+6ZEaNo5 =Fg1T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-10 15:12, Ferdinand Galko wrote:

...

Well, this kills my further contribution as translator. I will never work on translations using a web tool.

Migrating to web is a silly decision according me.

I have the same feelings about finishing of translating in case of this strange web tool.

Well, I have just raised the issue on the Project mail list. :-/ - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYZHQMACgkQja8UbcUWM1xz9AD+O8RN5ZgPSYJ8t/YCCgCXJYFn NrKi/yb8m2JdduAhxPoA/RcsvRQNuAikY4dvCZ7Fs770gdu4dbkNo7Mv9mNNy5Dk =xv6A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

2015-10-10 17:13 GMT+03:00 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2015-10-10 15:12, Ferdinand Galko wrote:

...

...

Well, this kills my further contribution as translator. I will never work on translations using a web tool.

...

Migrating to web is a silly decision according me.

I have the same feelings about finishing of translating in case of this strange web tool.

Well, I have just raised the issue on the Project mail list. :-/

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos, personal opinion, I think you overreacting According to official channels (which mean wiki page) translation is done in SVN. https://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Localization_Guide Let's assume you're oposite to our official procedure, you should send an e-mail to the board, so they deside next steps. I guess they'll send to the list, get feedback and they'll decide. Saying you stop contribute is SO selfish. I mean right now we use SVN but some countries have Vertaal (closer to Web GUI). Why don't you stop contributions? Have fun, /S -- http://www.iosifidis.gr http://linkedin.iosifidis.gr Great leaders don't tell you what to do...They show you how it's done. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts...absolutely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Hello,

Often I translate at a remote isolated place without Internet, or very limited, so using a webtool for doing the actual translation is out of the question.

I have looked at Weblate and it appears that one can download and upload .po files so we're not forced to use the web interface for actual translation. However, I don't know if it's possible to download/upload/sync files with command line. I suppose so; after all, as Vojtěch says, it's just git behind. I'm going to read the manual a bit… https://docs.weblate.org/en/latest/ Waiting for more information though :) Regards -- Antoine -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Op zaterdag 10 oktober 2015 19:17:17 schreef Ferdinand Galko:

I am the only Slovak translator for openSUSE now and it is not acceptable for me to have .po files over different places. It is actual state! We have our translations on two different places. Somebody must have big fun from us!

For statistics. I use Lokalize.

Ferdinand

I am the only Dutch translator, doing this work already for 10 years. I am able to keep lcn and yast up to 100% translated. I have a very well established efficient work flow. I make full use of the facilities of lokalize, especially the Translation Memory, which is of great benefit to me. I worked on other translations using a web based system, but I dislike the inefficiency compared to svn and lokalize. So I often can't find the drive to start working in that system. I believe svn can be replaced by git, but please provide cookbook type of instructions. This type of work, done by volunteers, can only be changed when the new system is beneficial to the people already doing the work and it must be made clear beforehand. Now it looks like somebody thinks it is a good idea to use Weblate but forgets the good engineering practice to find support for this idea among the one that are effected by it. I understand that working with a web based system lowers the hurdle to start, but I am not sure that the overall efficiency will be enhanced when everybody is forced in that system. A combination which does not effect the current work flow too much seems to me the best solution. -- fr.gr. member openSUSE Freek de Kruijf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

For me now I am fully satisfied with explanation from Tomáš Chvátal. Ferdinand -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

...

WE wrote that wiki, mean translation team, right? So that mean it's the official way of translation. If it's not that wiki the official, what it? It's under opensuse.org.

And somebody else, from outside, has changed it all without telling us a word. The contents of that wiki are now moot.

From outside? Tom? Outside? Hm, I think he's more inside than all of us. I didn't know what they do for 42.1 but until they announce something that works, we continue as we are.

...

Weblate is developed by a member of Czech openSUSE team but since he's not my team member, it's evil.

Don't be daft :-/

I might sound like one but I still believe you sound selfish. From your reply to Tom, you said similar to: I want documented, how to download the po file, procedures, I won't help testing. 1. You translate 42.1 which is testing right now. So you test a product. 2. Vertaal, Weblate, Zanata, Transifex, Damned Lies (and similar platforms) have a link on a po file to download and a form to upload the translated one. I guess they change the colour only. 3. Vertaal doesn't have documentation on official site, it's not official for community but we still use it. I wrote documentation in my language both for SVN and Vertaal. Still members don't use it. You sound like (sorry if it seems harsh): I'll be waiting the release of 42.1, I'll wait until the bugs will eliminate to zero. Then I'll translate the whole release. Finally, I'll install 42.1 and use it.

Why would they need to do that? Just use vertaal. The majority of my team do not even have an svn account.

The majority of our team doesn't have svn account (I think only 2 have an account out of 36 people and I'm the only one that use it). Only one person translates using Vertaal. I upload translation using SmartGIT (GUI) with my SVN account. Merges that might require from me to use terminal, done from me using Vertaal (since I'm end user and I don't know how to use terminal). As you can see, even if 34 members doesn't have svn account, they don't use Vertaal. Don't know why. Is it because it's not usable? Someone has to consider why. Instead of going to project list complaining, you can create a post on connect asking the community to vote, send an e-mail to project to see what the majority of the community wants. People who translate right now are limited and receive this list. But there might be members who find it difficult to translate using this system and do marketing etc. As all know, developers doesn't write documentation. Members who engage with the project, write tutorials and translate. Thanks for reading. /S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

...

As you can see, even if 34 members doesn't have svn account, they don't use Vertaal. Don't know why. Is it because it's not usable? Someone has to consider why.

Well, if they don't explain why, then nobody can help. Now it is moot.

Something that works on your team, doesn't work on mine. All of them wanted to transfer the whole translating system to transifex. Vertaal is full of bugs (I asked them to file a bug) and it's not very usable for them. I asked them to join this list and tell us, ask us... No one did it. Not sure if they weren't interested or it was too much procedure. OSEM is on transifex though (it's not lcn or yast but we use it on events). Why didn't you or someone else on this list complained about it? By the way, personal oppinion. Since I'm a TSP member, if someone that translates ONLY at Vertaal and applies a TSP, I cannot verify if he/she translates since Vertaal isn't the official openSUSE tool and when I check svn I see that a user vertaal commited translations.

...

Instead of going to project list complaining, you can create a post on connect asking the community to vote, send an e-mail to project to see what the majority of the community wants.

Vote? Good grief, this is not a democracy. It is a doacracy (from 'do'). Any vote will be ignored.

Well again, if it's not democracy, you should send a request to the board. Something that is easy for you to do, maybe it's not easy for others and that's why they don't help. Maybe that's why translation teams are limited. I can point you the difference. 1. GNOME: it's web based closer to Vertaal. Everyone can request a file, download, translate and upload it. Someone else get the file for review. Then the coordinator accepts it and sends it to git. 2. KDE (as far as I know): Someone has to register to local mailing list. Request for a file. Coordinator sends him the po file. The person sends the file back to coordinator. The coordinator commits the file. Not sure where someone can check the stats or what file he was to translate. It looks too complicated to me and too slow. What system from 2 above sounds easier for you to translate? Which one has more translators and more translations?

Actually, two years ago we decided not to use weblate. So?

I know what happened 2 years ago. As I wrote on the project list, I liked what Tom did and wanted to use it. I didn't stop translating after we rejected it (different of what you say now). By the way, for me it's longer than 2 years. I met Michal back on 2012 at Prague conference and I wanted to setup this tool to help at least Greek team. Unfortunately I don't know how to setup servers etc, so I asked couple of guys from local team to help me. They didn't help me, so that's why we stick on svn and then I pointed them Vertaal. I also asked Michal to host ONLY Greek team but he refused politely. This is your decision and your opinion. I would like to know more from others, other translation teams. Are you comfortable with svn? How about your team? Is your team limited because of the svn or it ain't a problem? Ask local teams (not only translation teams) if they could help more if it was a web based system. Have phun, /S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Op maandag 12 oktober 2015 18:14:56 schreef Martin Schlander:

Søndag den 11. oktober 2015 11:08:22 skrev Efstathios Iosifidis:

...

2. KDE (as far as I know): Someone has to register to local mailing list. Request for a file. Coordinator sends him the po file. The person sends the file back to coordinator. The coordinator commits the file. Not sure where someone can check the stats or what file he was to translate. It looks too complicated to me and too slow.

For a non-coordinator to translate KDE, all the guy needs to do is:

1) go to l10n.kde.org, e.g. http://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/trunk-kf5/team/da/ and download the PO-file 2) translate the PO with his preferred editor 3) e-mail the translated PO to the coordinator (e-mail address can be found in any KDE app under Help -> About [APP] -> Translation).

This is too simple. The pot file and consequently the po file may have changed in the meantime. So merging is needed and possibly some quality control on the translation. So either you merge the newest pot file with the received po file in case you trust the translation or you put the received po file in the translation memory and start translating the newest po file from the repository. Newly translated entries are easily spotted, because they appear in the TM field. Updated translations are difficult to spot in that case.

Of course it would make sense for the guy to give the coordinator notice before starting work to avoid duplicated work. It might also make sense to join a mailing list or an IRC channel where coordination and standardization can take place.

Here I could see some benefits of Weblate when looking at suggestions to improve translations.

And I don't see how a web based tool would change this. Except a web based tool might undermine any sort of "team spirit" and standardization efforts, by making it a free for all, leaving it to the reviewer/manager to clean up after "hit and run" translators.

-- fr.gr. member openSUSE Freek de Kruijf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. - 1:13 13.10.15 wrote:

Notice the important detail: the translator works on finished versions of the code, not on transient versions - which is why Factory can not be translated.

And there are other projects that has automatic workflow and translators can translate even devel version as it progresses as although it changes, strings does not change that much and when it is time to do release, translations are already almost done. This we can get easily with new workflow. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/13/2015 01:13 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2015-10-12 18:14, Martin Schlander wrote:

[...]

Notice the important detail: the translator works on finished versions of the code, not on transient versions - which is why Factory can not be translated.

That's only one possible approach and I totally respect translators that only want to work on releases. But it's also possible to have translators that want to translate (or adapt) new strings as soon as they appear (or are modified). Strings actually change very little during the development process since developers are not rephrasing the application messages every other day. So in my opinion, Tumbleweed can be translated. Cheers. -- Ancor González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

On 13 October 2015 at 09:50, jcsl <trcs@gmx.com> wrote:

From my point of view, the problem here is a communication problem. Things developed "secretly" (à la TTIP) without first asking and discussing the subject with the involved parts for the benefit of all. We are a community, aren't we? So transparency and communication are fundamental pillars.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the communication about Weblate could have been handled better, I think it's a stretch to go as far as a comparison to TTIP The reality is that we're a community of technical people, and the psychology of technical people is sometimes a little hard to understand, but when you do, this current situation makes a lot of sense. In my previous life as a Systems Manager, I used to quote this following article when i tried to explain some of the behaviours of my team Even though it talks about 'IT Pros', I find much of this logic applies to the way the vast majority of our contributors think and act, and therefore I think a lot of the information here is relevant to the situation with Weblate http://www.computerworld.com/article/2527153/it-management/opinion--the-unsp... But for those who don't want to read the full thing, here's a few extracts "Few people notice this, but for IT groups respect is the currency of the realm. IT pros do not squander this currency" "IT pros always and without fail, quietly self-organize around those who make the work easier, while shunning those who make the work harder, independent of the organizational chart." "IT is a team sport, so being right or wrong impacts other members of the group in non-trivial ways" "If you are dismissive of complaints, fail to recognize an illogical event or behave in deceptive ways, IT pros will likely stop complaining to you. You might mistake this as a behavioural improvement, when it's actually a show of disrespect. It means you are no longer worth talking to, which leads to insubordination." "Arbitrary or micro-management, illogical decisions, inconsistent policies, the creation of unnecessary work and exclusionary practices will elicit a quiet, subversive, almost vicious attitude from otherwise excellent IT staff Interestingly, IT groups don't fall apart in this mode. From the outside, nothing looks to be wrong and the work still gets done. But internally, the IT group, or portions of it, may cut themselves off almost entirely from the intended management structure. They may work on big projects or steer the group entirely from the shadows while diverting the attention of supervisors to lesser topics. They believe they are protecting the organization, as well as their own credibility -- and they are often correct." I think it is fair to say that for quite some time there has been a growing perception that the translation team is resistant to change and a blocker to progress. I do not want to solely blame all of this on Carlos, but as a very vocal mailinglist and forum poster, there are countless examples of posts from him with help reinforce that perception. To cite an example, statements like "Factory can not be translated" are the kind of illogical statement that is downright wrong, resists the direction of travel the rest of the Project is already taking, and is going to lower the respect of the person uttering it. It is also dismissive of those of us who feel Tumbleweed must be translated, because it's a major output of the openSUSE Project. The very mindset of 'us' vs 'them', the history of bikeshedding over translations, and Weblate in particular, further feeds into that cycle of reduced respect and from that insubordination. It doesn't matter what the 'openSUSE organisation chart' says, whether or not there is an 'official' translation team or not There has been and remain to be a group of dedicated contributors who believe Weblate is part of the fix for the solutions they perceive and who have felt their only option is to work quietly on it due to the resistance they have witnessed and directly faced. Now, at the earliest opportunity from their perspective, they are trying to bring their work out into the open because they do believe in concepts like openness and transparency, but up until this point, while not ideal, I totally understand how they have acted, in their shoes I could have seen myself doing the same. In an ideal world, this route wouldn't have been taken. Mutual respect for all involved would have been present, and it would have been possible to work in an open and collaborative fashion from the get go. I'd rather see progress being made via this route however than the available alternative, which would mean preserving a translation approach that everyone accepts was dysfunctional and from a very practical perspective would mean Tumbleweed (and possibly also Leap) would be insufficiently translated And hopefully from this point we can all learn how to get along a little better.. I can still hope :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Hi all, second round of inline ranting... On 13/10/15 17:49, Richard Brown wrote:

On 13 October 2015 at 09:50, jcsl <trcs@gmx.com> wrote:

...

From my point of view, the problem here is a communication problem. Things developed "secretly" (à la TTIP) without first asking and discussing the subject with the involved parts for the benefit of all. We are a community, aren't we? So transparency and communication are fundamental pillars.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the communication about Weblate could have been handled better, I think it's a stretch to go as far as a comparison to TTIP

Come on, "communication about Weblate could have been handled better" is pure BS. There has been no communication *AT ALL*, so everything is better than nothing.

The reality is that we're a community of technical people, and the psychology of technical people is sometimes a little hard to understand, but when you do, this current situation makes a lot of sense.

Translators are not required to be technical people, and their psychology can be different.

In my previous life as a Systems Manager, I used to quote this following article when i tried to explain some of the behaviours of my team Even though it talks about 'IT Pros', I find much of this logic applies to the way the vast majority of our contributors think and act, and therefore I think a lot of the information here is relevant to the situation with Weblate

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2527153/it-management/opinion--the-unsp...

But for those who don't want to read the full thing, here's a few extracts

"Few people notice this, but for IT groups respect is the currency of the realm. IT pros do not squander this currency"

"IT pros always and without fail, quietly self-organize around those who make the work easier, while shunning those who make the work harder, independent of the organizational chart."

"IT is a team sport, so being right or wrong impacts other members of the group in non-trivial ways"

"If you are dismissive of complaints, fail to recognize an illogical event or behave in deceptive ways, IT pros will likely stop complaining to you. You might mistake this as a behavioural improvement, when it's actually a show of disrespect. It means you are no longer worth talking to, which leads to insubordination."

"Arbitrary or micro-management, illogical decisions, inconsistent policies, the creation of unnecessary work and exclusionary practices will elicit a quiet, subversive, almost vicious attitude from otherwise excellent IT staff Interestingly, IT groups don't fall apart in this mode. From the outside, nothing looks to be wrong and the work still gets done. But internally, the IT group, or portions of it, may cut themselves off almost entirely from the intended management structure. They may work on big projects or steer the group entirely from the shadows while diverting the attention of supervisors to lesser topics. They believe they are protecting the organization, as well as their own credibility -- and they are often correct."

I think it is fair to say that for quite some time there has been a growing perception that the translation team is resistant to change and a blocker to progress.

Again, the fault is on translators only. What has the dev group done to avoid this? No communication, no request for comments, no request for the translators' opinion. But obviously it is translators' fault. The only thing they did was: we develop something new that works for us, then we tell the translators that they have to use it. Does this affect their workflow? Does this make their work more difficult? Of course no, because we, the developers, know that it works better, even if we know very little about what happens on translator's side. This happened around 2 years ago when weblate was first proposed: it was announced with already a roadmap for having it in use in short time, with the underlying message: translators, either use this or just leave. Is it this a good approach for having new technologies adopted? Is it this a good example of fair cooperation for the best of the project?

I do not want to solely blame all of this on Carlos, but as a very vocal mailinglist and forum poster, there are countless examples of posts from him with help reinforce that perception.

He is vocal, but for sure he is not alone. I agree with him on several things, even if I don't express this by sending mails.

To cite an example, statements like "Factory can not be translated" are the kind of illogical statement that is downright wrong, resists the direction of travel the rest of the Project is already taking, and is going to lower the respect of the person uttering it.

Don't you even consider to try to think that this may be a signal that the overall behaviour of the project with respect to the translators' work has some problem? No, because the project is correct, the translators are wrong. I wonder why you have not cited the conclusions of your beloved article: "Finally, executives should have multiple in-points to the IT team. If the IT team is singing out of tune, it is worth investigating the reasons. But you'll never even know if that's the case if the only information you receive is from the CIO. Periodically, bring a few key IT brains to the boardroom to observe the problems of the organization at large, even about things outside of the IT world, if only to make use of their exquisitely refined BS detectors. A good IT pro is trained in how to accomplish work; their skills are not necessarily limited to computing. In fact, the best business decision-makers I know are IT people who aren't even managers." and "As I said at the very beginning, it's all about respect. If you can identify and cultivate those individuals and processes that earn genuine respect from IT pros, you'll have a great IT team. Taking an honest interest in helping your IT group help you is probably the smartest business move an organization can make. It also makes for happy, completely non-geek-like geeks." where "translators" play the role of "IT pros". Where is the respect for the translators? Or are only the translators expected to have respect for the others? There are lot of examples of the low level of respect for the translators' work: not providing them the updated files to translate, not using their translated files, make their work difficult by ignoring the "localization best practices" [1,2], just because this simplifies dev's work, play with their work so to have something to impose on them without telling them it will happen, don't tell them when translations are expected to be available, and so on and so forth.

It is also dismissive of those of us who feel Tumbleweed must be translated, because it's a major output of the openSUSE Project.

Nice, you feel TW must be translated, but you never asked translators what they think about translating TW, the problems they see in this and what may be needed to have it. But obviously their opinion is useless, it has been decided that TW has to be translated and, translators, you have to do it in the way the devs and decision-makers decide. This has been decided and so it must be. The mantra "those who do, decide" works again in one direction.

The very mindset of 'us' vs 'them', the history of bikeshedding over translations, and Weblate in particular, further feeds into that cycle of reduced respect and from that insubordination.

I want to remember you that the majority of the oS translators are volunteers, so there is no insubordination at all. This is another hint of how much you value translators: either they do what others decided, or there is insubordination.

It doesn't matter what the 'openSUSE organisation chart' says, whether or not there is an 'official' translation team or not

There has been and remain to be a group of dedicated contributors who believe Weblate is part of the fix for the solutions they perceive and who have felt their only option is to work quietly on it due to the resistance they have witnessed and directly faced.

So that after, once the solution is ready, it is imposed to the translators. Either accept, or go away. Some contributors are more contributors than others...

Now, at the earliest opportunity from their perspective, they are trying to bring their work out into the open because they do believe in concepts like openness and transparency, but up until this point, while not ideal, I totally understand how they have acted, in their shoes I could have seen myself doing the same.

No, "they are trying to bring their work out into the open" because their work has had side effects that have been noticed and that have puzzled the translators, that have seen their work disappear, then re-appear, and then disappear again (while breaking the work of other people), so the problem exploded. I really wonder when and how they would have announced the change if things would not have been noted, but I can not have such an answer.

In an ideal world, this route wouldn't have been taken. Mutual respect for all involved would have been present, and it would have been possible to work in an open and collaborative fashion from the get go.

Scenario: devs propose a new solution to translators that changes rather deeply the established workflow of the translators, with the already decided idea that the proposed solution is the one that will be used. Translators react to this heavy change by complaining about the changes in their workflow, the added difficulties, the lack of communication. It is clear that this is only translators' fault. Your ideal world: translators agree with everything devs propose. Devs don't need input from translators because they know what it is the best for devs (granted) and translators (not granted at all). This is a very fair ideal world, isn't it?

I'd rather see progress being made via this route however than the available alternative, which would mean preserving a translation approach that everyone accepts was dysfunctional and from a very practical perspective would mean Tumbleweed (and possibly also Leap) would be insufficiently translated

And hopefully from this point we can all learn how to get along a little better.. I can still hope :)

And I would still hope that devs and decision-makers show more respect for volunteer translators, but the hope is really low :-( Best, Andrea [1] https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa291552%28v=vs.71%29.aspx [2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Localization/Localization_c... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-17 10:24, Richard Brown wrote:

This entire mindset of "We're translators, we're just going to do our thing our way, and the entire project has to accept it" (with the implicit threat of "or else we won't translate anything") is not conductive for a collaborative volunteer community

With that mindset, sure, you are 'doing' your little part of the big picture, and sure, you get to 'decide' how you do that..but if you want to fence yourself off from the rest of the project, if you want to ignore that the Project is now focused on rolling release and hybrid release, both of which means translations have to be handled differently, you cannot be surprised when 'they' (the rest of the Project) go and 'do and decide' something else.

Don't you see? Replace the word "translators" with "developers", and then you have "reality".

My ideal world is one in which the people who currently consider themselves 'Translators' are no longer saying 'we can't do that because...' and instead learning the skills, which in this case includes both communication and technical skills,

No way. You can't have that. Hint: how many developers write good documentation? Another hint: how many developers participate in forums with plain users?

I'd also say my ideal world would include the people you consider to be 'Devs' to try and make steps from the other direction, and try to learn the skills, provide tooling,

As a matter of fact, we did. We contributed tools.

But to be totally blunt, I'd actually look totally past that, if the _output_ of the translation team was effective. If we had half-decent translations of our two distributions, Tumbleweed or Leap,

But that is not our fault. It is "yours". Hint: I used some "" with some purpose... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYiHlsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U3NACglZhibr7Plz0BQCpLQzPlZjwt eBsAmgJ2322v6dSe4LnHshXx8H/qyyQC =AVRa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-17 12:22, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

Carlos E. R. - 12:09 17.10.15 wrote:

...

...

My ideal world is one in which the people who currently consider themselves 'Translators' are no longer saying 'we can't do that because...' and instead learning the skills, which in this case includes both communication and technical skills,

No way.

You can't have that.

I know translators who knows a little bit about development and are willing to learn new things. So it is possible.

...

Hint: how many developers write good documentation?

Every developer has to start with at least some documentation unless he wants his software to rot in corner or repeat himself over and over on communication "forums".

...

Another hint: how many developers participate in forums with plain users?

Plenty?

No, actually very few. Forums, not specialized mail lists. At least not at openSUSE. Ok, I'll try to explain my hints. Good translators are writers, people with language skills. People that see a phrase and say "Hey, the adjective there is in wrong concordance with the adverb!" I'm not in that class, I can just about distinguish an adverb from an adjective. A good translator not only knows many thousand of words in both languages, but also which word means the same to what word in the other language, and in which context. Some with amazing speed and memory to do so at the same time another person speaks. Now, a developer doesn't usually have those skills. He is normally good at maths, sciences, logic. Not typically "language". If you look at documentation written by programmers, you will often see a lot that is hard to read and understand - except by other programmers. So there have to be two teams, and both need to talk. If they do, the results are fantastic. There are people on both sides, yes, but those are rare. Gabriel is one, for instance, as he developed Vertaal. Twice. I'm also a developer, or was, but a Windows developer (which is why I do many of the admin tasks in my team). I'm a bit of a bridge. That reminds me: man/info pages are not translated at all. Not only those of openSUSE, but almost none. Why? No tools. Ok, no tools a writer/translator will like. I mean a GUI like LibreOffice, not a plain text editor with tokens. When asked for tools devs typical answer is "Why? You have tools". If somebody would crank up something with linuxdoc or similar, to work with LyX, to produce manual pages, that would be wonderful. Hint: try "man zypper" in any locale.

Personally, I don't care about blame. Blame is hanging to the past. I care about the future and how to move forward and achieve the best results possible, so I would suggest focusing on that and how to get Tumbleweed and Leap translated and not on who stepped on which toes at which time and who was heavier.

Agreed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYiKxkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VTuACfaZ9XZC8Ved6vP9YC7/aXN0lf TT8Ani7u/v4AFyhfgYCJn+0bgT/hH3gL =uF+e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-17 13:37, Richard Brown wrote:

So please, just go elsewhere. These endless debates waste your time, my time, and the time of everyone who reads it

Why don't YOU go elsewhere? You are the one that is lighting the fire... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYiNNcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XO2wCdH+vPZnQMDw/kBF8PABO8xQXV EGcAniP9BkSeT7XHdTAV4xfYW+FQzvTv =3rRO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Op dinsdag 13 oktober 2015 10:51:45 schreef Efstathios Iosifidis:

By the way, the process description is the ideal one. I want to add 2 more parameters. 1. Merging po file with pot file that has changed is something that a translator don't know how to do it.

Maybe not the translator, but definitely the coordinator should be able to do that. A rather small script is of much help.

2. For quality translations, the file should pass a review before submit to the system. Unfortunately, that's not something we usually do and maybe some translations aren't as good as we expect.

That's the ideal, but we do not live in an ideal world. So lets try it, but don't complain, just notify the translator. -- fr.gr. member openSUSE Freek de Kruijf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-13 09:51, Efstathios Iosifidis wrote:

1. Merging po file with pot file that has changed is something that a translator don't know how to do it.

Single click on vertaal. :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYc7uMACgkQja8UbcUWM1y8pQEAiL5TBnX4xfYBvmXFoPC8XEuF E9HsIqHf4NTYlHj/qP0A/A8sbbuNMRvCXMEHm1KSokOPjwbiikzfap0x1KsKtFMx =WDo2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

10. října 2015 15:22:07 CEST, Alexander Melentev <minton@opensuse.org> napsal:

2015-10-10 9:40 GMT+03:00 Ferdinand Galko <galko.ferdinand@gmail.com>:

...

Can somebody please explain why was some translations (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate? What does this mean for us? FMPOV, for us that means that nobody is actually interested in our opinion, nobody cares for our established workflow and nobody has a clue about best practices in decision making by discussing the issue with those who are interested. This exact move of files clearly wasn't decided here on translators mailing list. No recent discussion was held, no simple warning was posted (sic!). I find this move really demotivating.

I'd agree, but isn't it too early to say that? I mean, I don't see any word in oS wiki, nor official annoucement, instructions, ...

I remember the suggestion about using weblate for opensuse-i18n some time ago, but no decision was made back then. While I really think that this is a good idea in general as it might lower the complexity of the process for beginners, I don't think that forcing us to use this tool is also a good idea.

Isn't Weblate just another UI? I mean, all needed files are in https://github.com/opensuse/ is there should be nothing preventing GIT lovers from working, right?

P.S. I don't buy using git for translations. We had a single repo where we could work on all the files at once. If everything will migrate to git then every translator wishing to work on all the files will need to host 150+ individual repos. I can't imagine how this can be more convinient than what we have now.

It is clear that keichwa or sbrabec owe us an explanation.

I think sbrabec is only author of Weblate, but he is not anyhow responsible for decision making... Best, V. -- Vojtěch Zeisek http://trapa.cz/cs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

10. října 2015 17:56:21 CEST, "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> napsal:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2015-10-10 17:37, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

...

10. října 2015 15:22:07 CEST, Alexander Melentev <minton@opensuse.org> napsal:

...

2015-10-10 9:40 GMT+03:00 Ferdinand Galko <galko.ferdinand@gmail.com>: I remember the suggestion about using weblate for opensuse-i18n some time ago, but no decision was made back then. While I really think that this is a good idea in general as it might lower the complexity of the process for beginners, I don't think that forcing us to use this tool is also a good idea.

Isn't Weblate just another UI? I mean, all needed files are in https://github.com/opensuse/ is there should be nothing preventing GIT lovers from working, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weblate

basically, it is a wiki-like tool, editing directly on the web. Git is in the back.

I might be missing something, but if GIT is backend, what does prevent to use it directly?

...

...

It is clear that keichwa or sbrabec owe us an explanation.

I think sbrabec is only author of Weblate, but he is not anyhow responsible for decision making...

Certainly somebody owns us an explanation :-/

Yes

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlYZNSQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XEnwCfc5brlivVHWqu4Hb8JQIsEIr6 +GEAnj19z8F89UzZn+P5q42PppOVQa2x =Gkit -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- Vojtěch Zeisek http://trapa.cz/cs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2015-10-10 19:27, Alexander Melentev wrote:

2015-10-10 18:56 GMT+03:00 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weblate

basically, it is a wiki-like tool, editing directly on the web. Git is in the back.

Weblate is not an online editor (while there is a possibility to edit online),

I have seen the editor when browsing it a bit. A box, with a single message opened.

it also provides whole files download/upload like Vertaal, with support for glossaries and translation memory, so it is pretty flexible tool. I've always wanted something like this installed on official infrastructure to support openSUSE logins so every member could contribute to translations in transparent fashion. Right now I only worry for lack of communication and coordination of this move. Oh, and also for inability of any regular individual translator to manage hundreds of git repos with separate components for translation in case everything will be migrated to weblate.

And how do team administrators assign files to each translator? Blocking mechanisms? Etc. I don't see it. There was another attempt on this back on 2013. See thread "opensuse-translation] Managing SUSE translations in unified way". Also attempted without asking first, if I remember correctly. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlYZTcEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VBlQCZAZd464KKz4a1J/eKI2WTtXTc A24AoI9PdVENZDw62FirXPGXqZmEpRi4 =Z44A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Dne 10.10.2015 v 19:41 Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

I have seen the editor when browsing it a bit. A box, with a single message opened.

Try Zen Mode (button with Fullscreen icon). -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: sbrabec@suse.com Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +49 911 7405384547 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 084 001 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ PGP: 830B 40D5 9E05 35D8 5E27 6FA3 717C 209F A04F CD76 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. - 1:06 17.10.15 wrote:

On 2015-10-14 21:12, Stanislav Brabec wrote:

...

Dne 10.10.2015 v 19:41 Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

...

I have seen the editor when browsing it a bit. A box, with a single message opened.

Try Zen Mode (button with Fullscreen icon).

Sorry, I can not work online with a browser.

So work offline without the browser :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 10. Oktober 2015, 20:27:42 schrieb Alexander Melentev:

2015-10-10 18:56 GMT+03:00 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>: Weblate is not an online editor (while there is a possibility to edit online), it also provides whole files download/upload like Vertaal, with support for glossaries and translation memory, so it is pretty flexible tool. I've always wanted something like this installed on official infrastructure to support openSUSE logins so every member could contribute to translations in transparent fashion. Right now I only worry for lack of communication and coordination of this move. Oh, and also for inability of any regular individual translator to manage hundreds of git repos with separate components for translation in case everything will be migrated to weblate.

My view exactly :-) -- Kind Regards, Michael

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-10 23:06, Alexander Melentev wrote:

2015-10-10 20:48 GMT+03:00 Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz>:

...

Hello, Hi, Tomáš. Before I start my inline ranting I'd like to let you know how grateful I am for your extensive explanations, we all have missed them from the beginning. Really, I mean it, thank you so much.

Yes.

...

full and official announcement of the beta will be going at some point next few weeks. We just needed to "steal" some of the projects already being translated to ensure good live testing.

And one of the "stolen" projects is RELEASE NOTES exactly a few weeks before the release when there is still no single translator familiar with this new and not still established process. How do you expect to have any release notes translated in time for this release? I really would like to see the genius eyes of the guy who decided to do exactly that in this specific moment.

...

The plan is to have weblate for all the stuff, because it will by this per- project git repository solve most of the trouble we are having wrt longstanging SLE issues and now inherited by Leap issues.

We thought really hard about the problem and the fact that weblate actually is open-source and can be glued to internal infrastructure was the winner.

Yes, we all know this FOSS mantra "who codes decides", but I really don't think that trading devs headaches for translators' headaches is a way to go.

And this decision was made without even commenting with us... :-( Yes, It is not "those who do it decides", as we were told. They don't consider us part of "those who do". We don't code. :-//

...

Now for the concerns raised over the thread:

1) po translations will be allowed even externaly, ie. direct git commits 2) weblate allows mass-download and mass upload, so you can use the tool even for some checks if you don't want to do direct commits

Having more than one way to push translations in is pure evil cause it leads to conflicts. Code developers might think that git access for everybody might be a good idea and is managable, but in case of translations in terms of quality and consistency it is a road to hell: there are substantial differences between collaborating on code and collaborating on translations. Before making such "game-changing" decisions it might be a good idea to consult/collect feedback from the guys who have real experience with this "game". Lack of such communication at the very start of significant change is really frustrating.

I concur.

...

So you can try the translating as of now and collaboration will be deployed in close future. If you find any problems with the tool, like crashes where we didn't noticed them, or something does not behave like it should please sent sbrabec an email about it or file a ticked in bugtracker.

Please be more specific as we still have no valid info about authors of this decision and proper ways of communication with them. For instance, I once was denied to fulfill my NEEDINFO request to coolo, cause the email address I picked for this was not the one coolo expected (while still being valid coolo's address). So, what is the correct sbrabec's address for this? What is the correct bugtracker/component for such "early bird" bug reports? Where exactly was the discussion about all this held and how we can take part in it and make comments and requests? Who should we discuss the solution architecture with, i.e. this easily foreseeable scalability/managability issue I described earlier about a single translator VS 150+ repos? I am really interested in all this.

Yes, I concur. Well... I will not do any testing, not this time :-( I require first that all the procedures be documented at opensuse.org site, in text fit for dummies. I'm not going to do the investigating on how to do things, not this time, sorry. I'm too tired. Those that did this without asking or telling us, now will have to go further and explain it all to us. I need procedures documented on how to work this with lokalize (the kde tool), or equivalent (poedit?). I need to know how to download ALL the .po and .pot files to my computer: one directory for all the POTs, and another directory for all the POs, one per language. In a command or two. And there have to be different sets for different openSUSE versions: 13.2, leap, tumbleweed, etc. Ie, an structure that functionally replicates what we now have on SVN. I also need to know how to control who can commit translations of what file. Ie, to assign a file to a particular translator. And this needs to be done manually, by the coordinator, or automatically (autoassignation). Both methods are supported by Vertaal. When all is documented, I will read and evaluate. Then I will consider whether I keep contributing as translator, or not. I'm too tired to do the investigation myself...

...

PS: Did you know that some of those PO translations in SVN were not used for like 7 years? Now they are :) It is good that new tools can solve old issues. Now let's ensure they will not create more new issues and I think we'd better do it together =)

Indeed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYZkwkACgkQja8UbcUWM1wtpAD/TzGfccPNZT4tS3ScJAVAM5YD kmPr2J+kjne8qieQnl4A/i5mo0UqtdXbkyTDdPeVP8bqS5Sb0bVZF8N7Xg0jRXIO =ZItQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org