[opensuse-translation] Global localization issues
Hi, fellow listmates. While working on stats counting script I met a few issues in our SVN that need to be discussed. This is mostly about lack of maintenance. Issue 1: Unmaintained languages At leasts 7 languages are totally unmaintained: am:Amharic jv:Javanese lv:Latvian my:Burmese ne:Nepali sq:Albanian sw:Swahili They have ZERO translations for quite a long time. Also I want to specifically add sr@Latn:Serbian Latn to this list — even though it has a few lines translated, svn log shows no translators activity since at least 2006 (only «external maintenance» commits from keichwa, a_jaeger, cihlarov and myself). Those are the most obvious examples, but I'm sure there is more. Issue 2: Lack of translators It was already mentioned a few days ago, but it gives us a good example of what's happening: webyast-example-ui.pot was not merged automagically. The thing is that 48 "teams" still don't have it merged. This leads me to a conclusion that a number of active teams is severely lower than a total number of language directories available. So when the marketing team will look at the toplist and see 60+ languages listed, it is far from true. What do you think, should we define a way to determine really «unmaintained» langs and drop such languages? Or at least do something about them? -- Regards, Minton. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-26 00:02, Alexander Melentyev wrote:
Hi, fellow listmates. While working on stats counting script I met a few issues in our SVN that need to be discussed. This is mostly about lack of maintenance.
Issue 1: Unmaintained languages
Probably they should be removed from the svn if they had no activity in the last version, and no new translator has asked to work on it. At worst, if we make a mistake, the directories can be reinstated, this is svn and it remembers.
Issue 2: Lack of translators
It was already mentioned a few days ago, but it gives us a good example of what's happening: webyast-example-ui.pot was not merged automagically. The thing is that 48 "teams" still don't have it merged. This leads me to a conclusion that a number of active teams is severely lower than a total number of language directories available. So when the marketing team will look at the toplist and see 60+ languages listed, it is far from true.
Webyast has a different problem: the devs have not submitted the strings. I have looked at the "POT-Creation-Date" of all the .pot files, and they are all dated 2011 or 2010. There is absolutely nothing to translate, it is unbelievable.
What do you think, should we define a way to determine really «unmaintained» langs and drop such languages? Or at least do something about them?
We can post a notice in the list, that such languages are going to be removed, and if in, say, two weeks there is post from someone that is going to work on a language, then that one is not removed and the rest are. It should be simple. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+YjuIACgkQIvFNjefEBxr8tQCfc4z81MIFrP5zNaE3hBiLcb68 9McAn1WtmtmgepbFegVoUjxiMawdG7qp =uu// -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 26. April 2012, 01:55:14 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Issue 1: Unmaintained languages
Probably they should be removed from the svn if they had no activity in the last version, and no new translator has asked to work on it. At worst, if we make a mistake, the directories can be reinstated, this is svn and it remembers. I completely agree with Carlos, we should remove the dir (if it can be reverted with no problems, otherwise we can just move it to 50-old or something similar).
As for the process of filtering them, I don't know if we want to follow the KDE-approach: They include translations if they are above a certain percentage level [0] (they split it up in 4 categories each of them having their own limit) The advantage would be that it should be pretty easy to determine which language meets a requirement and which doesn't - on the other hand do we really want to throw away an 50-percent translation? I doesn't look perfect, but for some 50% is better than nothing...?! (last sentence also applies to unmaintained languages) Maybe they should be marked as incomplete or opt-in only (but bare in mind that for some people it will be difficult to apply the opt-in-process if it's not in their native language).
It was already mentioned a few days ago, but it gives us a good example of what's happening: webyast-example-ui.pot was not merged automagically. The thing is that 48 "teams" still don't have it merged. This leads me to a conclusion that a number of active teams is severely lower than a total number of language directories available. I don't know if we should determine the number of active teams by that, to be honest I wasn't sure what to do with it myself (as I thought it shouldn't be done by translators ...).
-- Regards, Michael
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-26 08:30, Michael Skiba wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 26. April 2012, 01:55:14 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Issue 1: Unmaintained languages
Probably they should be removed from the svn if they had no activity in the last version, and no new translator has asked to work on it. At worst, if we make a mistake, the directories can be reinstated, this is svn and it remembers. I completely agree with Carlos, we should remove the dir (if it can be reverted with no problems, otherwise we can just move it to 50-old or something similar).
The dir will be an untouched copy of the dir of the previous version, plus merge of pots. It could be reconstructed with some more work, not much. Moving to another directory doesn't save space, it is just an administrative measure, but it could be an intermediate step before removing completely. But you are right, if the directory is partially made, we should leave it untouched, because those partially made translations will get to the user. Eventually that 50% will degrade to a lesser percent. If wanted, they could be moved to a different package for distribution :-?
As for the process of filtering them, I don't know if we want to follow the KDE-approach: They include translations if they are above a certain percentage level [0] (they split it up in 4 categories each of them having their own limit)
But they package each language separately; we have them all in a single package, I think. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+ZCBsACgkQIvFNjefEBxp3oQCeO+InggAMw2KWZMd62AueU+Be l1IAoMVJMvDf++SMxwqjlRWaMdtDrbol =0gOU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Michael Skiba
The advantage would be that it should be pretty easy to determine which language meets a requirement and which doesn't - on the other hand do we really want to throw away an 50-percent translation? I doesn't look perfect, but for some 50% is better than nothing...?! (last sentence also applies to unmaintained languages)
It is easy to count numbers and base a decision on it. But sometimes, it does not make a difference whether 100% or just 80% are translated if the missing translations belong to seldom used software pieces (this, of course, depends on the user).
Maybe they should be marked as incomplete or opt-in only (but bare in mind that for some people it will be difficult to apply the opt-in-process if it's not in their native language).
Something similar already exists in yast. If the user selects an incompletely translated language, yast will warn if a certain amount of messages in not translated (it is configurable). This is only about yast messages (85 or 90%?); taking other desktop components into account would be an interesting exercise. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Alexander Melentyev
What do you think, should we define a way to determine really «unmaintained» langs and drop such languages? Or at least do something about them?
As long as they do not exceed the number of, say, 20 or 25 I would not remove them. It is not worth the trouble, IMO. But we should not ship those basically empty or very outdated yast translation packages. I guess I'll skip all languages during packaging, that are listed in trunk/yast/wanted_languages. This probably needs better documentation and, maybe, better implementation ;) -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 26. April 2012, 16:59:02 schrieb Karl Eichwalder:
As long as they do not exceed the number of, say, 20 or 25 I would not remove them. It is not worth the trouble, IMO.
But we should not ship those basically empty or very outdated yast translation packages. I guess I'll skip all languages during packaging, that are listed in trunk/yast/wanted_languages.
If the strings haven't changed I don't see a problem with outdated translations, I guess most teams have tons of strings that they haven't touched in several years now. In my opinion a few strings is better than no strings at all for several reasons: - We might be the only Linux distribution that has those Strings, thus making openSUSE still the best choice - It could motivate new translators seeing that their languageteam needs help + they don't have to start from scratch Of course they shouldn't be used by the marketing team (maybe they set their own limit and say 'okay, we only count fully translated languages > 90%') I think we should ping the list once in a while to check for inactive translation teams (something like: The following teams had no activity in the last 15 months and will be declared unmaintained if noone replies) after that we should drop a note in the openSUSE-news/ML/... or something like that stating that we are looking for translators for those languages. One thing that I've experienced is that new translators are more likely to follow an "invitation" rather than start the initiative on their own (most likely because they don't know where to start and what to do). Regards, Michael
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-26 17:30, Michael Skiba wrote:
But we should not ship those basically empty or very outdated yast translation packages. I guess I'll skip all languages during packaging, that are listed in trunk/yast/wanted_languages.
If the strings haven't changed I don't see a problem with outdated translations, I guess most teams have tons of strings that they haven't touched in several years now.
Yes, a really outdated message would be fuzzy and not used. Any used translation must be correct by definition. Maybe we can only remove languages with zero or near zero translated strings, and no activity in last version.
I think we should ping the list once in a while to check for inactive translation teams (something like: The following teams had no activity in the last 15 months and will be declared unmaintained if noone replies) after that we should drop a note in the openSUSE-news/ML/... or something like that stating that we are looking for translators for those languages.
Quite.
One thing that I've experienced is that new translators are more likely to follow an "invitation" rather than start the initiative on their own (most likely because they don't know where to start and what to do).
Yes, it is possible. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+Zi+wACgkQIvFNjefEBxrGSACfUjhVI72CZbcAMpbwdRxmYaXR JGcAn1wKVRmZlQcHxato3jmiTwH4BZ9v =Tpx6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Carlos E. R.
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On 2012-04-26 17:30, Michael Skiba wrote:
But we should not ship those basically empty or very outdated yast translation packages. I guess I'll skip all languages during packaging, that are listed in trunk/yast/wanted_languages.
If the strings haven't changed I don't see a problem with outdated translations, I guess most teams have tons of strings that they haven't touched in several years now.
Yes, a really outdated message would be fuzzy and not used. Any used translation must be correct by definition.
Maybe we can only remove languages with zero or near zero translated strings, and no activity in last version.
Remove from where?
I think we should ping the list once in a while to check for inactive translation teams (something like: The following teams had no activity in the last 15 months and will be declared unmaintained if noone replies) after that we should drop a note in the openSUSE-news/ML/... or something like that stating that we are looking for translators for those languages.
Quite.
One thing that I've experienced is that new translators are more likely to follow an "invitation" rather than start the initiative on their own (most likely because they don't know where to start and what to do).
Yes, it is possible.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk+Zi+wACgkQIvFNjefEBxrGSACfUjhVI72CZbcAMpbwdRxmYaXR JGcAn1wKVRmZlQcHxato3jmiTwH4BZ9v =Tpx6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-27 14:16, Leandro Regueiro wrote:
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
Maybe we can only remove languages with zero or near zero translated strings, and no activity in last version.
Remove from where?
- From the server. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+akjcACgkQIvFNjefEBxqnLwCggHK4UcpHIyOjyFR4JvrGGJ4d 5hQAn25OleYv9BnL+M68IERxOoYELphX =UjZR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Carlos E. R.
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On 2012-04-27 14:16, Leandro Regueiro wrote:
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
Maybe we can only remove languages with zero or near zero translated strings, and no activity in last version.
Remove from where?
- From the server.
Well, it might be a bit excessive, don't you think? Is there any problem with hosting these files on the server? Bye -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-27 18:14, Leandro Regueiro wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
Well, it might be a bit excessive, don't you think? Is there any problem with hosting these files on the server?
I don't think it is excessive to remove a language with no translation done, and no translators. Actually, we wold remove nothing, just the appearance that a language is being worked on. http://i18n.opensuse.org/stats/trunk/toplist.php Javanese (jv), Albanian (sq) and Swahili (sw) have 0 strings done. Lao (lo) has 1%. They seem abandoned languages. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEUEARECAAYFAk+a4hUACgkQIvFNjefEBxoFmgCVH6AurjCHTb1RnmsF3hnZc+1P 4gCfTTbD8BLHoFmf6fHTUqxzulE6Kew= =KiYO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Carlos E. R.
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On 2012-04-27 18:14, Leandro Regueiro wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
Well, it might be a bit excessive, don't you think? Is there any problem with hosting these files on the server?
I don't think it is excessive to remove a language with no translation done, and no translators. Actually, we wold remove nothing, just the appearance that a language is being worked on.
http://i18n.opensuse.org/stats/trunk/toplist.php
Javanese (jv), Albanian (sq) and Swahili (sw) have 0 strings done. Lao (lo) has 1%. They seem abandoned languages.
I don't see problems with removing languages with no translations at all, but IMHO removing one language which has some strings translated (despite they are only 400 strings and despite it has no translators) is a bad idea, since any new translator which can appear tomorrow for that languages can use this previous translations as a base. Bye. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 2. Mai 2012, 09:35:49 schrieb Leandro Regueiro:
I don't see problems with removing languages with no translations at all, but IMHO removing one language which has some strings translated (despite they are only 400 strings and despite it has no translators) is a bad idea, since any new translator which can appear tomorrow for that languages can use this previous translations as a base.
I fully agree and to be honest I'm still not sure what exactly we're talking about. Since various people have made various suggestions (ranging vom deleting them over moving to keeping them in SVN). I'm now talking about translations with at least a few strings (>5): If we keep them in SVN, then we might as well just keep them in the current form. Where is the difference? If they're "polluting" the stats pags and make a bad impression then we can simply don't show them (either by a percentage trigger or by manually setting a flag "show/don't show"). For the languages with no translation at all I don't see a harm in deleting them. Regards, Michael
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-05-02 09:35, Leandro Regueiro wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
I don't see problems with removing languages with no translations at all, but IMHO removing one language which has some strings translated (despite they are only 400 strings and despite it has no translators) is a bad idea, since any new translator which can appear tomorrow for that languages can use this previous translations as a base.
Don't worry. The language directory is not created for 12.2, say, but it remains in 12.1 (and the translation would be the same one). It can be reconstructed the moment some one comes along wanting to take it on. It is not an historic delete, is just a delete from the current version. For added security, we can tar the language and put it in an unmaintained directory, where nobody will delete it (old versions might be deleted at some point). - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+hEa4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxqOvgCfXA7aUXZSB+pMuS+ueQBiTI5k JwUAoM07nBRvCTdJ0QL5EjQVyRARO4mr =pfY3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 2. Mai 2012, 12:51:27 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
Don't worry. The language directory is not created for 12.2, say, but it remains in 12.1 (and the translation would be the same one). It can be reconstructed the moment some one comes along wanting to take it on.
It is not an historic delete, is just a delete from the current version. +1
participants (6)
-
Alexander Melentyev -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Karl Eichwalder -
Leandro Regueiro -
Michael Skiba