M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Thomas Schulte <thomas@cupracer.de> wrote:

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At the last IRC meeting (on Saturday, October 31) we talked about the minimum hardware requirements for openSUSE:

http://www.novell.com/en-us/products/opensuse/sysreqs.html

We agreed that the current reqs are not that appropriate anymore. Refilwe Seete had the idea of splitting the definitions into different parts like "GUI-based" and "CLI-based" requirements. That's basically a very good idea but we have to keep in mind that GUI shouldn't be generalized because IceWM or LXDE are not as consumptive as KDE4 or GNOME. And, of course, we shouldn't blow up the definition too much because of the needed clarity.

I've successfully installed both Gnome and KDE desktops from the 11.2 RC1 DVD on a 512 MB laptop. The LiveCDs don't really work - they thrash around on the CD drive. The resulting system from a DVD comes up fine, and as long as you only have one Firefox tab up, or a small OpenOffice doc, it is usable. I have not tested the XFCE desktop - the non-starting window manager issue is a show-stopper for my use cases, and XFCE is off my list of potential desktops for the future.

I have now installed on my i586 (AMD K6 CPU) with 256 Mb using the NET install mini-CD. That is the only form that runs on i586 - the others need at least i686. This installation originally failed, but worked when I selected "Text Mode" at boot time. This is selected with the F3 key. I had filed a Bug report on the failure, but after finding a work around, it has been changed to an enhancement for 11.3 so that text mode will be selected automatically if the memory is less than 512 MB. This machine is only used with a CLI, thus the heaviness of the GUI is irrelevant. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 07:53:19AM +0100, jdd wrote:

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky a écrit :

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I've successfully installed both Gnome and KDE desktops from the 11.2 RC1 DVD on a 512 MB laptop. The LiveCDs don't really work

I could install on a 256Mb ram computer from the live cd (not going live, of course) and it worked - 2 hours works though :-)

not recommanded, but it didn't work with 11.1

I would suggest to split the requirements into "usable installation", requiering at least 1 GB memory, decent CPU, 70GB hard disk (are there any smaller hd's still around, anyway?), at least 1024x768 graphical resolution. That would be a system an end user could actually work with. Then there is the "theoretically absolute minimum installation, using all the tweaks you can get". That would be the 512/256MB installations, probably running out of disk space as soon as the user tries to save his .bash_history, and having no graphical resolution to speak of (why should they? The system is not usable for someone sitting in front of it anyway). It's a modern operating system, so please use a modern computer. If you use less, you either need to know what you're doing (and why you're doing it - of course there are scenarios where a minimum installation is the right thing), or you're hitting limits whenever you try to do something. But we're not doing the end users a favor by suggesting he could install on such a minimum system. That will only cause frustration the moment he logs on. Rasmus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 09:44:17AM +0100, jdd wrote:

Rasmus Plewe a écrit :

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Then there is the "theoretically absolute minimum installation, using all the tweaks you can get". That would be the 512/256MB installations, probably running out of disk space as soon as the user tries to save his .bash_history, and having no graphical resolution to speak of (why should they? The system is not usable for someone sitting in front of it anyway).

sorry to say, but this is plain ridiculous. I have right now a server running very well and serving mailing lists and a wiki with only 128Mb ram and 20Gb HDD.

That's why I added the "of course there are scenarios where a minimum installation is the right thing" part. And stressed the focus on the end user. Would you be willing to use your server above as your desktop computer?

I know of many people that can't afford to buy a computer and are very happy to get for free a 256Mb ram 20Gb HDD PIV (I can spread many of them, from company renewing program)

and openSUSE, even kde, runs on these machines

Of course they do. But users normally[0] don't want to run openSUSE or KDE. They want to run firefox, kmail, acrobat reader and openOffice. Did you try to start OOo on a machine with 256MB? And then work with it? What I, probably[1] not too well, tried to point out is that the expectations need to be set correctly. If all you've got are 512MB, you can make do with it and work around the limits. But "minimum hardware requirements" imply to me that there is no limit for normal use. Rasmus [0] Extrapolating from me to "the user", and making up the missing bits, of course. ;-) [1] Hmm, make that "definitely"... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 10:02:54AM +0100, jdd wrote:

Rasmus Plewe a écrit :

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Of course they do. But users normally[0] don't want to run openSUSE or KDE. They want to run firefox, kmail, acrobat reader and openOffice. Did you try to start OOo on a machine with 256MB? And then work with it?

of course it works

Then I stand corrected. Last thing I can safely remember is upgrading my 256MB on 10.1 to 1250MB because it was almost constantly swapping (and starting OOo was something I tried only once). And even then I was able to press its limits. Might be my unusual use pattern.

...

But "minimum hardware requirements" imply to me that there is no limit for normal use.

if so we should be more precise.

That would be my vote, yes.

For internet use, mail, most office work, these machines are plain good (and I did these works few time ago with much less powerfull computers)

but, of course if you want to compile Hight Definition video or 15Mpix images this can be short. I already have 160Go photo repository (but on USB drive)

Hmm. I have a memory consumption of 700MB, after 12hrs uptime and having logged in as user with some kontact, konqueror and xterms but without interactive work. 11.1, more or less standard configuration. Given some non-standard stuff, and careless memory claiming because there is still plenty (2GB total), I could agree on 512MB as beginning to be usable. 256MB I still find hard to believe for a desktop system. The 4GB system I'm sitting in front of has almost exactly half its memory in use. No, not in cache. Anyway, that's only anecdotal evidence from my side.

but the question is: why should we ask for more than what is really necessary? these are not maximum requirements, but minimum ones!

It's the definition of "minimum". Perhaps we could define minimum, perhaps even on more than one level, along with the corresponding requirements? Something like [reduced to available RAM]: - absolute minimum: no GUI, small server services [256MB] - minimum GUI experience: no KDE/gnome, basically having one program open at the same time [256MB?] - minimum Desktop experience: KDE/gnome, opening either several programs at the same time or open OOo ;-) [512MB] - minimum configuration for extensive desktop work: KDE/gnome with whistles and bells, hardly limited for non-multimedia work [that would be my 1GB limit - I would refuse as much as possible to work on less memory when talking about desktop computers] - minimum configuration for multimedia work: [no experience] - maximum configuration: [I forgot, how much memory was supported by a 64 bit kernel...?] Do you feel that this would be too detailed? Where would you set the minimum requirements for different use cases? Rasmus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Until burn-out of the computer, I was running openSUSE 11.0 with KDE3 on Pentium III, about 450 MHz and 256 MB of RAM. And it was working fine. :-) Regards, Vojtěch Zeisek Dne Út 3. listopadu 2009 13:15:33 giuseppe gran napsal(a):

Some days ago i've installed openSUSE 11.1 on an HP notebook with only 190 MB of RAM but with a good processor (Pentium 4-M 2.2 Ghz). The system find all hardware configuration except for integrated wireless card that i've installed apart. For the test i've installed GNOME and it runs a bit slow, it lags in fact but it's still a bit usable. Now i'm going to test the latest RC with XFCE.

So IMHO, according to Rasmus Plewe, it's better to make different "degrees" of system requirements.

Bye hawake

Testing Team, Sorry to have helped kick off this discussion but not be in the thick of it, still getting my internet service up. Anyway, Thomas Schulte communicated my thoughts exactly. I think we should take a look at the system requirements and perhaps have two sets so the absolute bare is known, but otherwise realistic requirements are published for openSUSE 11.3. There are two ways to get this done: A. Work ourselves to find specs that fit the distro B. Work with the developers to set specs that the distro will be required to work within If we decide to find specs that fit the distro we definitely need some standards, otherwise we'll end up not much better off in the end due to our different views on performance. A few ideas: 1. Length of install if the user accepts all defaults - What's the maximum acceptable time? 60 minutes? 90 minutes? 120 minutes? 2. A standard set of apps and activities done simultaneously to simulate 'multitasking' - People can be taught to do one thing at a time, but should our specs be designed around the assumption that they won't multitask? 3. Using popular software in certain ways - such as OpenOffice Writer with a large MS Word file; Firefox on Youtube or Flash-based games; PDF reader with a large file. - Does it work? What is the minimum performance - say rendering time when scrolling, or some other measure We could also try to simply find the bare minimum that works, no matter how slow it happens to be. For 11.2 we are certainly too late, but for 11.3 having a good set of minimum requirements would be great. The current requirements seem to be a mix of CLI (Pentium 1) and GUI (512MiB RAM recommended). I think we should have more explicitly delineated specs, that will better serve both new users - who will blame us if the system is too slow despite what we say are the minimums - and experienced users who know how to shimmy the system into lower specs. Refilwe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Refilwe Seete wrote:

I think we should take a look at the system requirements and perhaps have two sets so the absolute bare is known, but otherwise realistic requirements are published for openSUSE 11.3.

Yes, I think that's a good idea.

There are two ways to get this done: A. Work ourselves to find specs that fit the distro B. Work with the developers to set specs that the distro will be required to work within

I think the minimum specs are quite well known, although mostly determined empirically. A Pentium CPU, 256M RAM (during installation at least) and 4Gb disk/ssd/whatever space. [big snip about what (not) to run etc.] It would probably be useful to decide on the environment for "realistic requirements", but let's not turn it into a major exercise, I tend to think in terms of a PC for standard office-type work, so I suggest the following simple spec for a useful/recommended setup: 1Gb RAM, 2GHz CPU, 80Gb harddisk space, monitor with SVGA 1024x768 resolution. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Per Jessen a écrit :

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1Gb RAM, 2GHz CPU, 80Gb harddisk space, monitor with SVGA 1024x768 resolution.

I don't see the reason to do so.

any new computer is best than that,. openSUSE can install and work (slow) in any minimal config as you said.

That any new machine is better is irrelevant, IMHO. It is only meant as a hint: "to get a decent/useful/reasonable experience with this openSUSE release, we recommend the following as a minimum". I have an elderly P4 1.8GHz with 512Mb here next to me - it was CHF40 on ebay about a year ago. With the recommended minimum spec, this is clearly in the right range, although a little on the low side. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Tilman Schmidt a écrit :

Of course people who cannot afford a Real Computer are a niche market.

not really so. In Africa, for example, many people uses very old computers, and so in many countries in the world. For them Linux should be *the* OS jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org

Rasmus Plewe wrote:

On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 07:53:19AM +0100, jdd wrote:

...

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky a écrit :

...

I've successfully installed both Gnome and KDE desktops from the 11.2 RC1 DVD on a 512 MB laptop. The LiveCDs don't really work

I could install on a 256Mb ram computer from the live cd (not going live, of course) and it worked - 2 hours works though :-)

not recommanded, but it didn't work with 11.1

I would suggest to split the requirements into "usable installation",

I like that - a hardware suggestion for a usable installation. We might have to add a little more about _what_ it would be usable for, but still.

requiering at least 1 GB memory, decent CPU, 70GB hard disk (are there any smaller hd's still around, anyway?),

Solid-state disks, yes. They come in sizes down to megabytes.

Then there is the "theoretically absolute minimum installation, using all the tweaks you can get". That would be the 512/256MB installations, probably running out of disk space as soon as the user tries to save his .bash_history, and having no graphical resolution to speak of (why should they? The system is not usable for someone sitting in front of it anyway).

I managed to install 11.1 on a Pentium90 and make it run in only 96Mb - without a GUI it's perfectly usable, but I think the absolute minimum requirements should be just: Pentium CPU, 256Mb RAM (required for installation), 8Gb harddisk space. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help@opensuse.org