In data giovedì 17 dicembre 2020 17:21:10 CET, mauro ha scritto:

On 17/12/20 10:49, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

In order to understand your atachment I had to translate it piece by piece using the automatic translator at from Italian to English. If the tranlation is incorrect, well, you should have done it.

I didn't even think a translation was needed or appropriate. The only info my email provider gave me is that they are not responsible, and that responsible be the opensuse's servers, as I said in the original post. I'm also confident that my own translation wouldn't have been any better than that of any automated translator, and possibly, surely less trustworthy.

...

But you have not attached the posts that were signaled as spam (with full heders) to allow analysis by others. There are links to them, but those are not accessible to outsiders to their ticket system.

I'm sorry for not knowing what to do or not to do, nobody told me. In fact I was that silly I thought to have send my request for help to the lists's owner. Tell me if I can attach the next emails I'll find in the spam bin as replies in this thread

I suppose you are referring to libero.it. Libero.it is very limited with mails form opensuse. In particular, as soon as you write a message "to yourself" that is, it turns from the list to your own account (which is default if you haven't defined it differently) libero does sign it as spam and in case of imap puts it in the spam folder. I haven't found a real work around for it, normally it should not happen though for messages from eg. security list or update list. This one is e.g. a mail to libero from security: Return-Path: Delivered-To: stakanov.s@libero.it Received: from dcd-20 ([10.103.10.25]) by dcbackend-13.iol.local with LMTP id yGqcHIn42F/DLwEA0Rap4A for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:55:21 +0100 Received: from dcp-19.iol.local ([10.103.10.25]) by dcd-20 with LMTP id MPx6HIn42F+/9gEAW4gg+A ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:55:21 +0100 Received: from libero.it ([10.103.10.25]) by dcp-19.iol.local with LMTP id 2BNNA4n42F80PQAAHPG84A ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:55:21 +0100 Received: from hydra.opensuse.org ([195.135.221.145]) by smtp-25.iol.local with ESMTP id pEXgkLT7Oo08DpEXhkZxm9; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:55:21 +0100 X-IOL-DMARC: Dominio opensuse.org non supporta DMARC X-IOL-DKIM: Messaggio non firmato X-IOL-SPF: pass con l'IP 195.135.221.145;opensuse.org X-IOL-SEC: _SPFOK_NODKIM_NODMARC x-libjamoibt: 2601 Received-SPF: pass X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=dNdjJMVb c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=5fd8f889 a=eWYd9gcED/9xhaZgLp8VSA==:117 a=eWYd9gcED/9xhaZgLp8VSA==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=zTNgK-yGK50A:10 a=iox4zFpeAAAA:8 a=KSb9T-wMAAAA:8 a=WlVlZ_HGcPojxx2EtjAA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=8PNcJY--53QA:10 a=46bn8mVlXzAA:10 a=Nip_-jKygb8A:10 a=WzC6qhA0u3u7Ye7llzcV:22 a=KF4VuIdXkMyp4E_ug72i:22 Received: from mailman3.infra.opensuse.org (mailman3.infra.opensuse.org [192.168.47.80]) by hydra.opensuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CF821CC8; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:54:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailman3.infra.opensuse.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailman3.infra.opensuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26F9555C; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:54:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.opensuse.org (mx1.infra.opensuse.org [192.168.47.95]) by mailman3.infra.opensuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 775373F07 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:22:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.opensuse.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.opensuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FFDD342F for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:22:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on mx1.infra.opensuse.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_SPAM,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=disabled version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Virus: No Received: from mx2.suse.de (mx2.suse.de [195.135.220.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.opensuse.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:22:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at test-mx.suse.de Received: from relay2.suse.de (unknown [195.135.221.27]) by mx2.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70365ACC6 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:22:28 +0000 (UTC) From: opensuse-security@opensuse.org To: opensuse-security-announce@opensuse.org Subject: openSUSE-SU-2020:2261-1: moderate: Security update for audacity Message-Id: <20201215172228.67538FD1F@maintenance.suse.de> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:22:28 +0100 (CET) X-MailFrom: SRS0=SdxQ=FT=suse.de=meissner@opensuse.org X-Mailman-Rule-Hits: member-moderation X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address Message-ID-Hash: MIO5YFJW5KODA2NDQAAMKAOM57Z2ZM4W X-Message-ID-Hash: MIO5YFJW5KODA2NDQAAMKAOM57Z2ZM4W X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:53:49 +0000 X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: security@lists.opensuse.org List-Id: Announcements concerning security in the openSUSE/SUSE distributions Archived-At: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/security-announce@lists.opensuse.or... List-Archive: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/security-announce@lists.opensuse.or... List-Help: mailto:security-announce-request@lists.opensuse.org?subject=help List-Post: NO List-Subscribe: mailto:security-announce-join@lists.opensuse.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:security-announce-leave@lists.opensuse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfItpmx/wlcjuejmjUX0gdZbg5PcGsRzi3cvo3ws/ fYtDR3lRZ4ThIrIjkvCVsN0CU2p1Pdw8caG2cefDV+CtpHW3QeFpeAl0dkwmA8gcdjKYrOgVPXpb 5cTflNDB8mcDinFRkvqiBlK5+z +zE6ngvtSEzYlQ5IRIxLr1uu9mDmChID713LPqAwXigvj2HfyfTFF2R5h70DmrDio9/ FipumInF0BhL0GOZrdGM48TI3tc ruXsZGKb4CGOZunGR7QRgWtNcDya/a7ledEldsRvehvJSNdR7vY5yX+gWlkFpwK5 I did not encounter problems of this list being "spam signed". I was always hit by it when using imap and then writing on the list receiving finally a "message from myself". You may try pop with libero. If nothing works, you can try and as me use an account that works with email list exclusively, in my case disroot, which seems not to present the issue.

On 17/12/2020 18.54, mauro wrote:

Hi Stakanov, On 17/12/20 18:09, Stakanov wrote:

...

You may try pop with libero. If nothing works, you can try and as me use an account that works with email list exclusively, in my case disroot, which seems not to present the issue.

I've always used pop, if that matters. I wasn't aware that there are providers that don't support mailing lists, if this is true I'd find their answer "we-are-innocent" disgusting Most likely they are ignorant of them.

For example, Gmail. They delete duplicate emails, defined as such because they have the same Message-ID. Consequences: - If email to the list, you will not get the email actually sent by the list to you, because it is a duplicate of the one in your Sent folder. Thus there are posters that mail several times thinking that their email was rejected till somebody tells them. - If somebody replies to you and to the list, you will not see the copy from the list because it arrives later and is a duplicate. As a consequence, for instance, the "reply to list" button in Thunderbird does not activate. For example, GMX. They can consider list mail to be spam, even if I sent it myself. As a consequence, they blocked my account till I logged in via web and changed the password. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 20:09:53 +0100 mauro wrote:

On 17/12/20 19:29, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

I've always used pop, if that matters. I wasn't aware that there are providers that don't support mailing lists, if this is true I'd find their answer "we-are-innocent" disgusting Most likely they are ignorant of them.

I'm afraid they can't ignore anything, they got mails with full headers and have decades of experience. They said "opensuse's fault". If they are wrong, for me that's plain cheating

Ask them to explain specifically what is borked with opensuse's server?

On 17/12/2020 21.59, mauro wrote:

sorry Dave, i missed the right button

On 17/12/20 20:47, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

On Thu, 17 Dec 2020 20:09:53 +0100 mauro wrote:

...

On 17/12/20 19:29, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

I've always used pop, if that matters. I wasn't aware that there are providers that don't support mailing lists, if this is true I'd find their answer "we-are-innocent" disgusting Most likely they are ignorant of them.

I'm afraid they can't ignore anything, they got mails with full headers and have decades of experience. They said "opensuse's fault". If they are wrong, for me that's plain cheating

Ask them to explain specifically what is borked with opensuse's server?

If I know my chickens, as they say in Italy, they'll repeat to ask opensuse to check theirs. They hardly are willing to do their job, let alone someone's elses :-(

No, no, they should point exactly and show to us the header or log entry that implicates it is somebody else's fault. That is the way things work, it is is not doing somebody else's job. It is showing proof. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2020-12-17 at 22:26 +0100, mauro wrote:

On 17/12/20 22:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

If I know my chickens, as they say in Italy, they'll repeat to ask opensuse to check theirs. They hardly are willing to do their job, let alone someone's elses :-(

No, no, they should point exactly and show to us the header or log entry that implicates it is somebody else's fault.

That is the way things work, it is is not doing somebody else's job. It is showing proof.

I'll make a try then, but it's likely for them the case be closed,

Don't, I found the problem.

they already sent me a service review request without first asking if the issue was solved!

Fill it, tell they should have said the issue was DKIM failing, and don't be so quick at assigning blame. It is their duty to you as client to fully explain what the problem is and what you can do about it (nothing). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX9vPPBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVvsEAnAz++pZX6+YamcLcUnH5 KRkMo3bOAJ9c+A68bAX+gP7d4R57QgHNM93e4Q== =moeN -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 17/12/2020 17.21, mauro wrote:

On 17/12/20 10:49, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

In order to understand your atachment I had to translate it piece by piece using the automatic translator at from Italian to English. If the tranlation is incorrect, well, you should have done it.

I didn't even think a translation was needed or appropriate. The only info my email provider gave me is that they are not responsible, and that responsible be the opensuse's servers, as I said in the original post. I'm also confident that my own translation wouldn't have been any better than that of any automated translator, and possibly, surely less trustworthy.

Well, you see, there is no point in attaching their support thread unless it is translated. Either translate and attach, or not attach, and just tell us the gist of it. ;-)

...

But you have not attached the posts that were signaled as spam (with full heders) to allow analysis by others. There are links to them, but those are not accessible to outsiders to their ticket system.

I'm sorry for not knowing what to do or not to do, nobody told me. In fact I was that silly I thought to have send my request for help to the lists's owner. Tell me if I can attach the next emails I'll find in the spam bin as replies in this thread

No need to be sorry. I'm sorry if you felt I was being blunt, I was just tagging info. :-} But in the support thread they are asking the same thing, the sample emails, complete, full headers. So you can attach them here, or in the ticket with admin here, whatever you prefer. I can help analyze those headers, but in the end, if there is something to see or repair at opensuse servers you have to open a ticket, but perhaps with part of the analysis done. Up to you to choose a road :-) I had a feeling that Stakanov had a similar problem with libero and changed provider. In the email headers he posted, there is no clue about they marking that post as spam, though: it happens later, I guess. There is the SPF check (pass), DMARC says not signed, and that's it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2020-12-17 a las 19:51 +0100, mauro escribió:

On 17/12/20 18:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Well, you see, there is no point in attaching their support thread unless it is translated. Either translate and attach, or not attach, and just tell us the gist of it. ;-)

I said the gist of it and attached the original, next time I won't attach anything unless asked :) I'm like a baby you see, I've to learn your ways. Anyway, I thought you could read italiano, so whenever you need a translation from italian just ask me, I'm italian mothertongue, deepl isn't.

It is not only me (I can not read it all), it is anyone that tries to read your post to help. As far as I know, the admins do not talk Italian.

...

No need to be sorry. I'm sorry if you felt I was being blunt, I was just tagging info. :-}

I'm not really sorry, haven't done anything wrong. Just politeness the british way :)

heh :-)

...

But in the support thread they are asking the same thing, the sample emails, complete, full headers. So you can attach them here, or in the ticket with admin here, whatever you prefer. I can help analyze those headers, but in the end, if there is something to see or repair at opensuse servers you have to open a ticket, but perhaps with part of the analysis done.

Here you are, first tranche. If you need more just tell me, I've got a full folder of it every day. If there'll be to open a ticket, you'll have to tell me how to. Never done bfore.

Ok, let's see. *** Package_janus-gateway_in_Factory.eml From: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_Str=c3=b6der?= Subject: Package janus-gateway in Factory Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 14:57:56 +0100 Authentication-Results: smtp-25.iol.local; dkim=fail (signature verification failed) header.d=stroeder.com header.b=yZIzvXXy^M That is the problem. The sender server (not you) has activated DKIM, and check failed. It is detected by a machine named "smtp-25.iol.local" which I don't know where it is (name is not valid internet address). I guess it is your ISP. Check fails because list server "modified" the post by adding a footer (how to unsubscribe, etc (I guess, the text is base64 encoded, reading that is another step). DKIM purpose is to detect modifications to email in transit. *** Re_Managing_list_offtopicness_better_.eml Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 23:30:00 +0100 (CET) From: Gerald Pfeifer To: project@lists.opensuse.org Subject: Re: Managing list offtopicness better. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Authentication-Results: smtp-25.iol.local; dkim=fail (signature verification failed) header.d=suse.com header.b=jnouz4uF Same problem. *** Re_Package_janus-gateway_in_Factory.eml From: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_Str=c3=b6der?= Subject: Re: Package janus-gateway in Factory Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 17:43:55 +0100 Authentication-Results: smtp-25.iol.local; dkim=fail (signature verification failed) header.d=stroeder.com header.b=pTj2aeS6 Same problem. *** Re_spam_from_lists_opensuse_org_.eml Subject: Re: spam from lists.opensuse.org ? To: support@lists.opensuse.org References: <855f5c6-ab5-9a8d-b2f-913a91d3273@telefonica.net> From: mauro Message-ID: <393b1dee-4460-5860-87b7-042117d764a7@libero.it> Authentication-Results: smtp-25.iol.local; dkim=fail (signature verification failed) header.d=libero.it header.b=XT2PEt/i Same problem. Your own ISP uses DKIM. This is not exactly openSUSE's fault, but from their point of view they blame us. We can blame everybody that uses DKIM for using a protocol that is broken by design, it does not contemplate mail lists. This is precisely one of the reason's that the mail server had to be migrated recently, to cope with this problem that was coming. Yes, you can open a ticket, but the issue is known. In fact, you can open it just to record the issue, but for the moment you will have to move the email out of the spam folder, and give thanks that it was not simply rejected and deleted. To open a ticket, just send an email to admin@opensuse.org, and say that your ISP marks often email coming from the list (even your own) because DKIM fails, and attach the zip file you did on this mail. You can also point to this thread (or better to my post, but the URL is not known yet): https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/support@lists.opensuse.org/message/... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX9vOZhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVAxYAn3tPOlEGQ+aWhV8Zjzwq wvbm0WtLAJ9ULqiOLYRZPotsq+ZiYnM3TZ7/Xg== =aOyl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 18/12/2020 13.48, mauro wrote:

On 17/12/20 22:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

This is not exactly openSUSE's fault, but from their point of view they blame us. We can blame everybody that uses DKIM

...

Yes, you can open a ticket, but the issue is known.

No ticket. I'll just get free from false Free.it

This issue will eventually affect every mail supplier in the world, there is no escape. Only that some of them are lazy to implement "new features" and just ride along. For example, telefonica.net (no, they do not have new accounts, or modifications to the existing accounts. They tell people to go to gmail instead). gmx doesn't seem to be applying it. Yet. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 18/12/2020 19.41, mauro wrote:

On 18/12/20 14:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 18/12/2020 13.48, mauro wrote:

...

On 17/12/20 22:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

This is not exactly openSUSE's fault, but from their point of view they blame us. We can blame everybody that uses DKIM

...

Yes, you can open a ticket, but the issue is known.

No ticket. I'll just get free from false Free.it

This issue will eventually affect every mail supplier in the world, there is no escape.

you mean mailing lists will follow the downhill of usenet, firefox, freespeach, world climate and humanity as a whole?

No. I'm saying that every mail supplier will eventually enact DKIM, killing mail lists usage by their users. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DomainKeys_Identified_Mail And then the section "Annotations by mailing lists" The Italian article is useless, sorry. https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/DomainKeys_Identified_Mail -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 18/12/2020 21.36, Dave Howorth wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 20:36:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

...

On 18/12/2020 19.41, mauro wrote:

...

On 18/12/20 14:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 18/12/2020 13.48, mauro wrote:

...

On 17/12/20 22:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

This is not exactly openSUSE's fault, but from their point of view they blame us. We can blame everybody that uses DKIM

...

Yes, you can open a ticket, but the issue is known.

No ticket. I'll just get free from false Free.it

This issue will eventually affect every mail supplier in the world, there is no escape.

you mean mailing lists will follow the downhill of usenet, firefox, freespeach, world climate and humanity as a whole?

No. I'm saying that every mail supplier will eventually enact DKIM, killing mail lists usage by their users.

I optimistically hope that my email provider, who is also my ISP, will be one of the last to succumb, and that before they do a solution will be found to allow email lists to continue.

Heh :-) Yes, same here. There are "solutions". One is to not change or add anything to emails that come from a DKIM domain. Which means, not adding [opensuse-support] to the subject line, or not adding a footer with important information to the emails, when they pass the server. Obviously, that solution impacts the usability of the lists. The other method is to change the "from" address - example: From: On behalf of Dave Howorth This other method is not liked. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:17:42 -0500 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. [12-18-20 15:53]: [...]

...

There are "solutions". One is to not change or add anything to emails that come from a DKIM domain. Which means, not adding [opensuse-support] to the subject line, or not adding a footer with important information to the emails, when they pass the server.

Obviously, that solution impacts the usability of the lists.

The other method is to change the "from" address - example:

From: On behalf of Dave Howorth

This other method is not liked.

or, posters could add "[opensuse-support]" to the Subject: line.

posters being people continually active here

see Subject: line

Indeed. The thought occurred to me, but I was too lazy :)

* Carlos E. R. [12-18-20 17:06]:

On 18/12/2020 22.37, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:17:42 -0500 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Carlos E. R. <> [12-18-20 15:53]: [...]

...

There are "solutions". One is to not change or add anything to emails that come from a DKIM domain. Which means, not adding [opensuse-support] to the subject line, or not adding a footer with important information to the emails, when they pass the server.

Obviously, that solution impacts the usability of the lists.

The other method is to change the "from" address - example:

From: On behalf of Dave Howorth

This other method is not liked.

or, posters could add "[opensuse-support]" to the Subject: line.

posters being people continually active here

see Subject: line

Indeed. The thought occurred to me, but I was too lazy :)

At least one person did that and added the wrong tag.

there will *always* be those that cannot be bothered or are incapable of following *any* expected standard -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

On 18/12/2020 22.17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. <> [12-18-20 15:53]: [...]

...

There are "solutions". One is to not change or add anything to emails that come from a DKIM domain. Which means, not adding [opensuse-support] to the subject line, or not adding a footer with important information to the emails, when they pass the server.

Obviously, that solution impacts the usability of the lists.

The other method is to change the "from" address - example:

From: On behalf of Dave Howorth

This other method is not liked.

or, posters could add "[opensuse-support]" to the Subject: line.

Sure, but that doesn't work very well. Now there is a "Re: " automatically added before it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

* Felix Miata [12-18-20 17:30]:

Carlos E. R. composed on 2020-12-18 23:01 (UTC+0100):

...

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

or, posters could add "[opensuse-support]" to the Subject: line.

...

Sure, but that doesn't work very well. Now there is a "Re: " automatically added before it.

That's been an annoyance since before the turn of the century. Some email clients or listservs shift it to before, some after, some leave it, and some add another.

at one time, I had a automagic macro in mutt which would remove an assortment of those errant additions -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 21:51:19 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

On 18/12/2020 21.36, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 20:36:26 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

...

On 18/12/2020 19.41, mauro wrote:

...

On 18/12/20 14:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 18/12/2020 13.48, mauro wrote:

...

On 17/12/20 22:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> This is not exactly openSUSE's fault, but from their point of > view they blame us. We can blame everybody that uses DKIM

> Yes, you can open a ticket, but the issue is known.

No ticket. I'll just get free from false Free.it

This issue will eventually affect every mail supplier in the world, there is no escape.

you mean mailing lists will follow the downhill of usenet, firefox, freespeach, world climate and humanity as a whole?

No. I'm saying that every mail supplier will eventually enact DKIM, killing mail lists usage by their users.

I optimistically hope that my email provider, who is also my ISP, will be one of the last to succumb, and that before they do a solution will be found to allow email lists to continue.

Heh :-)

Yes, same here.

There are "solutions". One is to not change or add anything to emails that come from a DKIM domain. Which means, not adding [opensuse-support] to the subject line, or not adding a footer with important information to the emails, when they pass the server.

Obviously, that solution impacts the usability of the lists.

The other method is to change the "from" address - example:

From: On behalf of Dave Howorth

This other method is not liked.

Another method would be for DKIM to acknowledge that email lists DO exist and modify their rules accordingly! But who knows :)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: On Thursday, 2020-12-17 at 22:32 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

El 2020-12-17 a las 19:51 +0100, mauro escribió:

...

On 17/12/20 18:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Same problem. Your own ISP uses DKIM.

This is not exactly openSUSE's fault, but from their point of view they blame us. We can blame everybody that uses DKIM for using a protocol that is broken by design, it does not contemplate mail lists.

This is precisely one of the reason's that the mail server had to be migrated recently, to cope with this problem that was coming.

Yes, you can open a ticket, but the issue is known. In fact, you can open it just to record the issue, but for the moment you will have to move the email out of the spam folder, and give thanks that it was not simply rejected and deleted.

You could read https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 to see what is being done about "the problem". - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX93whhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV6UoAn0ylbeREplAf5cRcOaJ6 SAKGYphOAJ4g6ICqPVNQci8/yI67gGAL9fARfw== =Wh1n -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 21/12/2020 17.40, mauro wrote:

On 19/12/20 13:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

This is not exactly openSUSE's fault, but from their point of view they blame us. We can blame everybody that uses DKIM for using a protocol that is broken by design, it does not contemplate mail lists.

...

This is precisely one of the reason's that the mail server had to be migrated recently, to cope with this problem that was coming.

...

Yes, you can open a ticket, but the issue is known. In fact, you can open it just to record the issue, but for the moment you will have to move the email out of the spam folder, and give thanks that it was not simply rejected and deleted.

You could read https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/72133 to see what is being done about "the problem".

a most interesting reading and an unknown site ! Thank you Carlos

so from what I gather the libero's guys might be right by saying the glitch happens because of the suse's policy, not the DKIM protocol per se

My opinion, and is not mine alone, is that DKIM is broken by design. One reason is it doesn't contemplate mail lists. Consider: mail lists that worked perfectly following the standards for decades, start failing when mail providers add support for new protocol called DKIM. Don't you think that it is the new protocol which breaks existing ones? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

In data giovedì 17 dicembre 2020 21:26:24 CET, mauro ha scritto:

On 17/12/20 18:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I had a feeling that Stakanov had a similar problem with libero and changed provider.

In the email headers he posted, there is no clue about they marking that post as spam, though: it happens later, I guess.

There is the SPF check (pass), DMARC says not signed, and that's it.

rethinking about it, Stakanov said he changed provider but it seems he has remained with libero only for that couple of signed lists that don't give issues, that's why his headers have no spam tagging

Esatto carissimo, hai azzeccato il problema. E non ti preoccupare se ogni tanto non tutti comprendono la lingua di Dante, dove l'uso del indicativo in questa frase era peraltro intenzionale. At the time we had an Italian list, but as nobody posted, bad boy Per did close it. If I would have known about before, I would have posted some alibi translations :-). The above described issue raises the question, about why in all world we have to have a "footer"? Time ago I did propose a reminder mail (and that was "badly received" for data volume....) Now this solution seems to me, even more inappropriate than then monthly reminder mail (e.g. KDE mailing list). If you have trouble with libero, I tried as a "no pay" solution "www.disroot.org" which requires some strange "ritual" (to write a text) to show that you are not a "bot", but technically it is working well with my lists, hence this is the reason, why I decided to migrate from libero.

On 17/12/20 22:57, Stakanov wrote:

At the time we had an Italian list, but as nobody posted, bad boy Per did close it. If I would have known about before, I would have posted some alibi translations :-).

I'd like to have also an Italian list, but how many Dantes mother's sons 'round Suse? :-)

The above described issue raises the question, about why in all world we have to have a "footer"? Time ago I did propose a reminder mail (and that was "badly received" for data volume....) Now this solution seems to me, even more inappropriate than then monthly reminder mail (e.g. KDE mailing list).

That's too bad, a footer in each and every mail accounts for a lot more of "data volume"! A pointer to the lists's web page in a welcome message for subs would do fine in 99% cases IMO. Welcome message should include list's scope,policy,faq,miscellaneous - "support" is for.... ??? "users" is for... ??? Or we don't even know?

If you have trouble with libero, I tried as a "no pay" solution "www.disroot.org" which requires some strange "ritual" (to write a text) to show that you are not a "bot", but technically it is working well with my lists, hence this is the reason, why I decided to migrate from libero.

grazie un monte! I'll say byebye to libero and follow you

Am Freitag, 18. Dezember 2020, 14:36:40 CET schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

That's too bad, a footer in each and every mail accounts for a lot more of "data volume"!

Not a lot, just 300..350 bytes

In contrast, gmx adds a "hidden" header of more than 6 Kilobytes.

...that is the least problem with GMX. They work around explicit filter rules to deliver certain spam into your mailbox - even if you are a premium- customer. A ticket system is a perfect communication killer, a complaint rests in peace until it is closed automatically. But to come back to the original topic - openSUSE mailing list work here at least. Cheers Axel

On 18/12/2020 15.35, Axel Braun wrote:

Am Freitag, 18. Dezember 2020, 14:36:40 CET schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

...

That's too bad, a footer in each and every mail accounts for a lot more of "data volume"!

Not a lot, just 300..350 bytes

In contrast, gmx adds a "hidden" header of more than 6 Kilobytes.

...that is the least problem with GMX. They work around explicit filter rules to deliver certain spam into your mailbox - even if you are a premium- customer.

Ah? I'm not getting spam on my gmx account. I have other trouble, but not that one.

A ticket system is a perfect communication killer, a complaint rests in peace until it is closed automatically.

{chuckle}

But to come back to the original topic - openSUSE mailing list work here at least.

Because your provider is not strict about DKIM. Your mail gets this by my provider: X-TnetIn-SpamCheck: no es spam, clean DKIM_NONE SPF_PASS and this from mauro: X-TnetIn-SpamCheck: no es spam, clean DKIM_NONE SPF_PASS where in theory should fail. Actually, my provider is doing something weird, perhaps intelligent: X-TnetIn-Information: AntiSPAM and AntiVIRUS on asavin05 X-TnetIn-MsgID: 4Cy7zq35fGzWptZ.A2E8E X-TnetIn-SpamCheck: no es spam, clean DKIM_NONE SPF_PASS X-TnetIn-From: support-bounces@opensuse.org <================ X-Spam-Status: No Mauro, do you have problems with every mail list, or only some specific ones? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 18/12/20 14:36, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

That's too bad, a footer in each and every mail accounts for a lot more of "data volume"!

Not a lot, just 300..350 bytes :-)

Multiplied by how many mails in a month? Just asking eh, ! maybe it's only me not ever looking at footers but appreciating a welcoming message

...

A pointer to the lists's web page in a welcome message for subs would do fine in 99% cases IMO.

Doesn't really work, I tell you from experience :-p

...

Welcome message should include list's scope,policy,faq,miscellaneous - "support" is for.... ??? "users" is for... ??? Or we don't even know?

...

If you have trouble with libero, I tried as a "no pay" solution "www.disroot.org" which requires some strange "ritual" (to write a text) to show that you are not a "bot", but technically it is working well with my lists, hence this is the reason, why I decided to migrate from libero.

grazie un monte! I'll say byebye to libero and follow you

Test for a month before burning the ships :-p

I don't need a month to know what I need or like or you mean there are issues also with disroot?